Sujud

hlatif

Lisan Al Arab. However, I follow the teaching of the messenger who taught his followes how to pray and understand Sujood. Who and what do you follow? and why?

Hussein

ignoramus

Lisan Al Arab. However, I follow the teaching of the messenger who taught his followes how to pray and understand Sujood. Who and what do you follow? and why?

Hussein

salam

insofar as salat is concerned, until recently i blindly followed the majority. currently, i am in a state of utter confusion and i am praying for guidance and understanding.

i am not fully satisfied with any understanding offered so far. scholastically, i find the theory of hear and obey most sensible, but i have not seen any explanation of why Allah says to the chin, so i am left as before.

perhaps the meaning of to the chin also needs analysis.

salam

unknownuser

Any geniuses in Arabic language who could answer the following

If rukoo and sujood does not mean bow and prostrate respectively as per some, then what are the actual Arabic words for them? In other words, are there any other Arabic words for bow and prostrate besides the one and only rukoo and sujood?

Peace!

Edit Pardon me for the accidental double post.

ayman

Peace Ignoramus,

i am not fully satisfied with any understanding offered so far. scholastically, i find the theory of hear and obey most sensible, but i have not seen any explanation of why Allah says to the chin, so i am left as before.

When we use our natural god-given common sense of course we can see what is sensible. So you are on the right track. As for the god saying "to the chin", I cannot know why he said it. I can only humbly use my god-given common sense together with the empirically verifiable truth that I can see.

What we can see is that people here who promote a physical prostration to the forehead are using all sorts of excuses in order not to follow the clear implication of 17107 to their own understanding of a "physical prostration". If they understand "sujud" as physical, then why such aversion and deep resentment to prostrating to the chin? It is not difficult to do. It is just as easy as prostrating to the forehead. What we are seeing here is empirically verifiable truth that "physical prostration" is irrelevant for everyone. Even to those here who promote it, it is not about physical prostration at all. It is about following what their forefathers and their fellow sectarians do. It is not about obeying the god and following his clear signs as best as they can understand them.

As for the use of the chin in 17107, besides exposing sectarians, my current understanding is that it is an idiomatic expression. We can see this throughout the great reading. For example, when the god says that "their hearts are blind". Does that mean that their four heart quadrants don't have retinas and thus can't see? No, the god is not talking about the physical heart or the physical blindness at all.

Peace,

Ayman

ignoramus

Peace Ignoramus,

When we use our natural god-given common sense of course we can see what is sensible. So you are on the right track. As for the god saying "to the chin", I cannot know why he said it. I can only humbly use my god-given common sense together with the empirically verifiable truth that I can see.

What we can see is that people here who promote a physical prostration to the forehead are using all sorts of excuses in order not to follow the clear implication of 17107 to their own understanding of a "physical prostration". If they understand "sujud" as physical, then why such aversion and deep resentment to prostrating to the chin? It is not difficult to do. It is just as easy as prostrating to the forehead. What we are seeing here is empirically verifiable truth that "physical prostration" is irrelevant for everyone. Even to those here who promote it, it is not about physical prostration at all. It is about following what their forefathers and their fellow sectarians do. It is not about obeying the god and following his clear signs as best as they can understand them.

As for the use of the chin in 17107, besides exposing sectarians, my current understanding is that it is an idiomatic expression. We can see this throughout the great reading. For example, when the god says that "their hearts are blind". Does that mean that their four heart quadrants don't have retinas and thus can't see? No, the god is not talking about the physical heart or the physical blindness at all.

Peace,

Ayman

salam brother Ayman

this is where i am having trouble. your argument against the majority is that they do not prostrate to the chin, but this objection is equally valid, if not more, for a purely mental prostration. you say you have empirical evidence for a purely mental prostration, but i do not see it.

i see your point that "to the chin" might be used idiomatically, but that neither supports or damages the mental prostration theory. in my unlearned and lay opinion, it seems to suggest a physical act.

i am new to the concept of trying to understand the Quran for myself, so please excuse me if i am missing obvious point.

salam

ignoramus

EDIT

unknownuser

I'm truely perplexed to see that some bring about several meanings to a specific Arabic word, such as rukoo, sujood, and almost all others, but when it comes to "lazkaan" in 17107, why are some bent upon this word to mean only "chin" and nothing else? Is this word not found anywhere else in the Quran? Besides, I've yet to see other Arabic words for bow and prostrate besides rukoo and sujood respectively. Have the "god" suddenly run out of words? -X

Edit In addition to above, if one assumes that rukoo and sujood means to "obey and hear" or "humble oneself", how does one do that with "chins"? o

ayman

Peace Ignoramus,

this is where i am having trouble. your argument against the majority is that they do not prostrate to the chin, but this objection is equally valid, if not more, for a purely mental prostration. you say you have empirical evidence for a purely mental prostration, but i do not see it.
i see your point that "to the chin" might be used idiomatically, but that neither supports or damages the mental prostration theory. in my unlearned and lay opinion, it seems to suggest a physical act.
i am new to the concept of trying to understand the Quran for myself, so please excuse me if i am missing obvious point.

I think that it is best at this stage to summarize the relevant points and demonstrate how they are all empirically verifiable truth

One of the meanings of "sujud" is submission/obedience. This meaning is documented in Arabic dictionaries. So you can verify for your self that it is a valid meaning and we didn't invent anything new.
While "obedience" is a universal concept (i.e., can apply to everything in the universe), "physical prostration" is a superficial meaning that is not universal and can mean different things to different cultures. So one has to ask themselves what is the god primarily concerned with? Is he primarily concerned with the true universal concept or the superficial? Of course, the god is primarily concerned with the deep and universal "obedience" and not the superficial "physical prostration". This is why the meaning of "obedience" is the primary meaning. You can empirically verify this for yourself by observing the fact that many people do "physical prostration" and yet disobey the god. So have they really done the "sujud" that the god talks about in the great reading? Any person who uses his god-given mind will surely admit to the fact that they haven't.
As for the "to the chin", you have to look at the whole expression as idiomatic. So it is "falling in sujud to the chin". The whole expression is an idiomatic expression for immediate obedience. This expression also exposes those who claim that "sujud" is primarily a physical act but use all sorts of excuses in order not to follow the clear implication of 17107 to their own understanding of a "physical prostration". You can empirically verify that to them it is not about physical prostration at all. It is about following what their forefathers and their fellow sectarians do. It is not about obeying the god and following his clear signs as best as they can understand them. Hence, none of them will dare to do physical prostration to the chin in front of their fellow sectarians.

I hope this helps clarify the issues and help you to reach certainty with empirically verifiable truth.

Peace,

Ayman

Tay

Peace Genteel,

Besides, I've yet to see other Arabic words for bow and prostrate besides rukoo and sujood respectively. Have the "god" suddenly run out of words?

Could it be that there was no need to include "bow" and "prostrate" in the revelation? Omission of these words really doesn't prove or disprove anything.

Peace,
Tay

warner

Salaam

Bowing and Prostrating is mentioned along with standing and sitting in the Quran.
(2226,2564,399)

Also if it is mental why "fall" ?

warner

I'm truely perplexed to see that some bring about several meanings to a specific Arabic word, such as rukoo, sujood, and almost all others, but when it comes to "lazkaan" in 17107, why are some bent upon this word to mean only "chin" and nothing else? Is this word not found anywhere else in the Quran? Besides, I've yet to see other Arabic words for bow and prostrate besides rukoo and sujood respectively. Have the "god" suddenly run out of words? -X

Edit In addition to above, if one assumes that rukoo and sujood means to "obey and hear" or "humble oneself", how does one do that with "chins"?

Salaam

You can take beard instead of chin for azqani. Also I think some how the word is related to old age. But my knowledge of Arabic is not sufficient to confirm this.

Tay

Peace warner,

In the context of Genteel's inquiry, your references (2226,2564,399) do not stand apart from 17107 as physically bowing and prostrating. If one takes the metaphorical approach to 17107, then the same can be applied to the other verses.

Also if it is mental why "fall" ?

Fall in love.
Fall into debt.
Fall from grace.

Is Arabic much different?

Peace,
Tay

ignoramus

salam

Peace Ignoramus,

I think that it is best at this stage to summarize the relevant points and demonstrate how they are all empirically verifiable truth

One of the meanings of "sujud" is submission/obedience. This meaning is documented in Arabic dictionaries. So you can verify for your self that it is a valid meaning and we didn't invent anything new.

agreed.

While "obedience" is a universal concept (i.e., can apply to everything in the universe), "physical prostration" is a superficial meaning that is not universal and can mean different things to different cultures. So one has to ask themselves what is the god primarily concerned with? Is he primarily concerned with the true universal concept or the superficial? Of course, the god is primarily concerned with the deep and universal "obedience" and not the superficial "physical prostration". This is why the meaning of "obedience" is the primary meaning. You can empirically verify this for yourself by observing the fact that many people do "physical prostration" and yet disobey the god. So have they really done the "sujud" that the god talks about in the great reading? Any person who uses his god-given mind will surely admit to the fact that they haven't.

i agree obdience is a universal concept.

i do not agree that physical prostration is a superficial meaning. neither do i agree that it is not universal. regardless of the culture of a person, he is able to understand how to prostrate physically. prostrating physically without obedience, for instance to show off, obviously does not constitute sujood. however, this does not imply that physical prostration is not part of the meaning of sujood. not precluding the fact that intention and purpose in all acts (mental and physical) is important, a physical prostration may serve some important purpose.

the Quran is a guidance and Light for those that wish to attain the pleasure of Allah. Allah is neither harmed nor benefited by any of our actions, mental or physical, so i do not think one can exclude a physical component of sujood on the basis of Allah not being concerned with it. He is guiding us to the straight path, so sujood is completely for our benefit, not for His. a physical component of sujood may be something which helps us reach the straight path, possibly by some physiological process. moreover, the physical prostration is an act of self-abasement and humility. consider the various practises around the world of people who meditate, as well as the oriental arts such as tai chi and yoga. the physical act is not the ends in itself, but is a means to attain a concentrated mental state.

from a more personal perspective, when i first did a physical prostration as an act of worship about 2 years ago, i remember very much the feeling, emotion and the mental effect. i think it served an important purpose, although i admit this does not mean that this is necessarily what is meant by sujood.

As for the "to the chin", you have to look at the whole expression as idiomatic. So it is "falling in sujud to the chin". The whole expression is an idiomatic expression for immediate obedience. This expression also exposes those who claim that "sujud" is primarily a physical act but use all sorts of excuses in order not to follow the clear implication of 17107 to their own understanding of a "physical prostration". You can empirically verify that to them it is not about physical prostration at all. It is about following what their forefathers and their fellow sectarians do. It is not about obeying the god and following his clear signs as best as they can understand them. Hence, none of them will dare to do physical prostration to the chin in front of their fellow sectarians.

i agree that it is possible that sujood to the chin may be an idiomatic expression which signifies a purely mental act of obedience, but from the information so far presented in this thread, this is only a possibility and speculative.

I hope this helps clarify the issues and help you to reach certainty with empirically verifiable truth.

Peace,

Ayman

to be clear, i have very limited knowledge, and i have only been studying the Quran around a month. however, for me matters are far from clear.

thank you for sharing your understanding.

salam

unknownuser

Could it be that there was no need to include "bow" and "prostrate" in the revelation? Omission of these words really doesn't prove or disprove anything.
Hi Tay,

It would be hard to omit/include English words to regard/disregard Arabic ones by choice. There may be several possibilities but like I mentioned earlier that ?Throughout ancient history and current, bowing and prostrating has always been an act of respect or mercy towards kings, queens, emperors, mighty men and man-made idols? (even during Muhammad?s times).

Besides, the word(s) for obedience/humbleness is TaAt (&#1577 or ITaAt (&#1577 as in 481, 2453 & 4721 and other words such as , , , . The word azkaan can mean chin, face or head (depending on context).

In regards to Ayman?s previous post

As for the "to the chin", you have to look at the whole expression as idiomatic. So it is "falling in sujud to the chin". The whole expression is an idiomatic expression for immediate obedience. This expression also exposes those who claim that "sujud" is primarily a physical act but use all sorts of excuses in order not to follow the clear implication of 17107 to their own understanding of a "physical prostration". You can empirically verify that to them it is not about physical prostration at all. It is about following what their forefathers and their fellow sectarians do. It is not about obeying the god and following his clear signs as best as they can understand them. Hence, none of them will dare to do physical prostration to the chin in front of their fellow sectarians.
Discrediting physical prostration because its impossible to fall on chin or foolish as it seems without yielding to other meanings/possibilities is utterly vain. When obedience is considered as ?one of the meanings just because it is taken from dictionaries? (disregarding all of history and everything else), the chin becomes idiomatic and figurative but when physical prostration is considered, the chin becomes literal and nonsense. This is a fallacious and manipulative reasoning. How it is that ?azkan? (chin, face, head) becomes idiomatic and figurative when obedience is considered while prostration doesn?t? But even if azkan meant only chin, it is easy to touch chin at prostration, although it?s idiomatically and doctrinally meant head (forehead ~ correct understanding of azkaan in relation to physical prostration).

Idiomatic ~ common, conversational, everyday, familiar, informal, popular, street, vernacular. (Bowing and prostration is as common, familiar and popular today as it has been in ancient history)

There seems not an iota of doubt that ruku and sujood can ONLY mean bow and prostrate and nothing else in every context of all verses in which the Quran speaks, from historical and current standpoints, and of course from ahadith.

Peace!

warner

Peace warner,

In the context of Genteel's inquiry, your references (2226,2564,399) do not stand apart from 17107 as physically bowing and prostrating. If one takes the metaphorical approach to 17107, then the same can be applied to the other verses.

Fall in love.
Fall into debt.
Fall from grace.

Is Arabic much different?

Peace,
Tay

Salaam Tay

Thanks for the reply.

Do you mean to say standing, sitting and traversing in these verses are also mental?

Core meaning of sujud maybe obedience. But in 7206, 1598, 7626 and 5040 Sujud is related to glorify and praise Does it mean sujud can be for other than obedience?

The verses 3113, 2564 and 399 mentions sujud in the night. Surely it can not mean obedience in the night?

1958 sujud is with weeping/in tears. Weeping is a physical action.

In the verses 258, 4154, 7161,12100, 1648,17107, 1958, 2070,2564, 3215, 4829 the Quran uses sujjadan instead of sjud/sajado etc. What is the difference in this usage

Samia

I wonder why we stop at verse 17107 and not contiue two more verses where we have it explained

108 And they "Glory to our Lord! The promise of our Lord must be fulfilled
109 And they fall down to their chins weeping and it increases their "humility" ,
It is clear that "fall to the hin" is an expression and that their reaction was that of being humble ( ; sajada kasha3a to be humble/fearful)

unknownuser

Peace all,

In my understanding, "sujud" in the context of salaat (4102), is both mental obedience to The God and physical prostration to The God, with the mental aspect being the more important one.

There are certain signs in al-qur'aan which are evidence of "sujud" of a human also meaning a physical prostration, for example 2724, 4137. How can one mentally obey the sun or the moon ?

Hence, the physical component of "sujud" in the context of salaat is possible and probable, with the mental aspect being the more important one.

As far as the physical aspect is concerned, the fact that The God did not give a detailed anatomical description of the sujud other than mentioning it being to the chin, clearly shows that the exact anatomical way one performs the physical sujud is irrelevant and not important, as long as it involves some form of lowering one's chin to the ground. As long as one performs the physical sujud in any way which involves lowering one's chin to the ground, it will fall under the qur'aanic guidelines and should be acceptable to The God.

For example, one can flex one's neck until the chin touches the chest, or one can flex one's back in the sitting position and lower one's head until the chin is nearer to the ground without actually touching the ground, or one can lower one's head by flexing one's back in the sitting position until the chin touches the ground.

In my understanding, any of these positions should satisfy the physical requirement of the sujud, and it should not be an issue for someone else how exactly one performs sujud, as long as it is within the guidelines of al-qur'aan, as sujud is a personal and private thing between oneself and The God.

Having said that, I will reiterate that the mental aspect of sujud is the more important one, and a physical sujud without the mental obedience to The God is useless.

Tay

Peace Warner,

Please bear with me, as I am in my infancy in understanding this...
As I see it thus far, sujud, as meaning the practice of being humble/submissive/obedient, can be applied in all instances.
So, yes, one can be humble/submissive/obedient while standing, sitting, and/or traversing.
One can (and should) be humble/submissive/obedient while glorifying and praising God.
One can be humble/submissive/obedient at night time.
Being humble/submissive/obedient can bring one to tears.

So, it is not a strict psychological view on the entire text. It is a view that this one term can be understood as a state of mind, and as all other states of mind, physical acts are usually taking place at the same time, ie, "...enter the gate with humility..." 258

Peace,
Tay

ayman

Peace Genteel,

In regards to Ayman?s previous postDiscrediting physical prostration because its impossible to fall on chin or foolish as it seems without yielding to other meanings/possibilities is utterly vain.

Who said that it is impossible to physically fall in prostration to the chin? You are the one who is saying this now. It is not impossible nor difficult. In fact it is quite easy. Anyone can try it. Just fall in prostration while looking forward and your chin will be the one touching the ground. Try it!

Peace,

Ayman

ignoramus

I wonder why we stop at verse 17107 and not contiue two more verses where we have it explained

108 And they "Glory to our Lord! The promise of our Lord must be fulfilled
109 And they fall down to their chins weeping and it increases their "humility" ,
It is clear that "fall to the hin" is an expression and that their reaction was that of being humble ( ; sajada kasha3a to be humble/fearful)

salam sister

can you please clarify what you mean by it being an expression? do you mean that it does not involve a physical action>

salam