Why do women dress indecently?
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Thanks, G. Omar, for your kind words. In fact I think that what we all want is to get as much truth as possible, and sometimes the truth is hard to get, hard to see, hard to admit, hard to swallow. I do not have anything personal against anybody here, and I think nobody else does with respect to me or any other either. We are trying our best, which may be more than we can handle without getting a little out of balance.
Thanks for the balm, it is always welcome.
Salaam
Thanx for taking it the way it was intended.
On the point of dressing indecently or not. God has given us all free will, but also the faculty of distinguishing btw, right and wrong. Obviously those who do not believe in God or do not feel it is their duty to follow his injunctions do as they please and eventually pay the price.
When it comes to believing women I hope they follow the advise in the Quran to"lengthen their dress" and also cover their bosom. After all God does not impose anything on us without a good reason. Just think how much suffering and crime, in the form of infidelity, beatings and even murder, has been caused, by attracting undue attention.
To brother Tarikh I would say it's not easy being a single man in your prime surrounded by, no doubt, very attractive women, trying to get the attention of young men like you. The solution is to get married ASAP and not necessarily to a Quran Alone woman. If she is nice and kind and believes in God your strong conviction, God willing, will eventually put her on the right path. pr
Peace
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As Salaamu Alaikum all,
This is one woman's view that I thought I would add to the thread
Feminism vs. Women's rights
Here's a question Buffy asked me
Do I take it that you do not support feminism but you do support women's rights? I was wondering what you thought the difference was as most people seem to be unclear about the definition of either.What a great question, Buffy! Very often, when people hear I stopped supporting feminism, they assume I'm against women's rights. The reason of this misjudged concept is automatically associating feminism with women's rights and benefits, and everything that goes against it with oppression and belittling of women ? which is imprecise, to say the least.
To help you understand why I think so, let me first give a brief introduction of these two terms ? feminism and women's rights.
What in my opinion constitutes women's rights? Here's a summary of the basics
- Physical protection and safety ? this means no one has the right to abuse, harass, threaten a woman, or put a woman in a situation that endangers her physical well-being. A woman is to have a feeling of being physically protected.
- Emotional protection and safety ? no one has the right to emotionally abuse or torture a woman, cause her distress, endanger her spiritual well-being or undermine her feeling of emotional security. A woman is to have a feeling of being emotionally protected.
- Appreciation ? a woman should be appreciated for her being a unique human being, created in God's image, and for her role as a woman, helpmeet, wife, and mother ? which is also God-given.
- Respect ? a woman has the right to be respected. She has the right to express her opinions, which should be taken seriously. No one has the right to belittle a woman, deny her importance or boss her around.
Anything important that I might have forgotten can be considered as a part of physical or emotional well-being. You will also notice, of course, that everything I listed can be applied to all human beings, men as well as women ? except that in number 3, 'role of woman, helpmeet, wife and mother' should be replaced with 'role of man, leader, husband and father'.
Now let's say a few words about feminism. Feminism is meekly defined as 'The name of a number of social, cultural and political movements, theories and moral philosophies that are concerned with cultural, political and economic practices and inequalities that discriminate against women.'
Some defenders of feminism claim that 'feminism is not against homemakers; it's all about choice" ? is that so?
"A parasite sucking out the living strength of another organism...the labor does not even tend toward the creation of anything durable.... oman's work within the home not directly useful to society, produces nothing. is subordinate, secondary, parasitic. It is for their common welfare that the situation must be altered by prohibiting marriage as a 'career' for woman." ~ Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex, 1949.
"s long as the family and the myth of the family and the myth of maternity and the maternal instinct are not destroyed, women will still be oppressed.... No woman should be authorized to stay at home and raise her children. Society should be totally different. Women should not have that choice, precisely because if there is such a choice, too many women will make that one. It is a way of forcing women in a certain direction." ~ Simone de Beauvoir, "Sex, Society, and the Female Dilemma," Saturday Review, June 14, 1975.
"Feminism was profoundly opposed to traditional conceptions of how families should be organized, the very existence of full-time homemakers was incompatible with the women's movement.... f even 10 percent of American women remain full-time homemakers, this will reinforce traditional views of what women ought to do and encourage other women to become full-time homemakers at least while their children are very young.... If women disproportionately take time off from their careers to have children, or if they work less hard than men at their careers while their children are young, this will put them at a competitive disadvantage vis-a-vis men, particularly men whose wives do all the homemaking and child care.... This means that no matter how any individual feminist might feel about child care and housework, the movement as a whole had reasons to discourage full-time homemaking." ~ Jane J. Mansbridge, Why We Lost the ERA, 1986.
(Quotes taken from LAF article "You Don't Know Feminism"
Now let's have a look at the consequences of feminism and see if it provided women with the basic rights I mentioned in the earlier part of my post.
Over 40 years after the beginning of the modern feminist movement of the 1960's, we have unrestricted sex, the Pill, abortion on demand, an astronomically increased number of single mothers, teenage mothers and women in their 40's struggling with infertility; we have a fatherless generation who hasn't seen a better example; chastity is mocked, women are sexualized and coerced into selling themselves cheap; we have no-fault divorce, deterioration of family values ? and I could go on and on. Tell me, how exactly does it provide women with a sense of physical and emotional security?
A woman is no longer appreciated and respected for being a woman ? on the contrary, she is expected to be as masculine as possible, and every suggestion that there is, in fact, a difference in the way a men's and women's minds work meets vehement denial (even an innocent statement such as 'a research has found a higher percent of women have talent for studying languages, while men are more inclined to mathematics'. Motherhood is regarded as 'just one out of many options', and being a helpmeet is perceived as slavery.
A daughter can no longer expect to be protected by her father; a woman finds it hard to trust her husband's leadership and feel secure in her marriage, with the divorce rates so ridiculously high; a lady cannot expect chivalry anymore.
Feminism claims that before its onset, women were a faceless, abused, uneducated mass. Nothing could be further from the truth. Biblical laws have protected women for many centuries before feminism came into the picture. Take for example Deuteronomy 2228-29. I've heard various opinions about this verse, but the bottom line is that a man cannot take a maiden's virginity and get away with it. What did feminism give us instead of defending a woman's honor and chastity? The preposterous claim that it has no importance and is more of a hindrance to a woman's 'liberation'.
Women's education is another myth. If you listen to feminists, women were nearly illiterate before the start of feminist movement. I wish they knew my great-grandmother, who was home educated and had wide knowledge of fine literature, music, arts, history and management of the home; she was accomplished in the domestic arts; she was an honored wife and the delighted mother of seven children. My grandmother did go to a women's college back in 1934, but it wasn't like today. She stayed with two respectable old ladies and helped them look after their home, and the ladies in turn looked after her and made sure no unworthy man gets near her.
Yes, feminism has provided us with 'freedom of choice' ? but only for women who make a certain choice. What about women who want to fulfill their God-given role as helpmeets, wives, keepers of the home, mothers, and who see it as a satisfying, challenging, full-time work? But ah, they are mindless slaves! Oppressed! Brainwashed! They should be educated and forced ? by legislations and campaigns ? to make the right 'choice'.
If feminism is a movement for women's rights and for improving the position of women, its ultimate test should be a reality check of women's well-being, security and happiness. After doing such a check, isn't it obvious that feminism miserably failed?
I'm not saying the times before feminism were all of a rose garden; but I'm very much against feminism being portrayed as some sort of kind fairy who raised women from the dust and saved them from meaningless slavery. Do you now understand why?
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I disagree that two quotes, which I am not going to check, should be represented as representing the whole history of the feminist movement. Any movement we care to take can be easily disqualified that way. Suffice to say that whatever many people may say now, at the time the feminist movement appeared nobody gave a damn about women's rights or abuses. Now everybody are heroes, but when it was risky... we know.
As to Simone de Beauvoir, I really do not know what makes her particularly feminist although she may have professed to be one. Her prominence at any rate is not as a feminist, but because of her hardly feminist relationship with Sartre. But again everyone picks what one needs to proove what one wants for proove.As to the qualifying males as leaders and females as helpers, well enjoy it. I rather prefere to treat as leaders those capable of leading when leading is needed, (be they male or female). I as far as I have ascertained that is what the qur'an says, apar of course of the great stress made on consensus and mutual agreement.
This I guess is still to do with why people dress one way or another, although do not see how.
Salaam
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Salaam huruf,
Are you ever going to quote any of Al Quran to back up any claim or opinion that you share here? Or are we to understand that you just know better than everyone else? But your opinions are welcomed.
I disagree that two quotes, which I am not going to check, should be represented as representing the whole history of the feminist movement. Any movement we care to take can be easily disqualified that way. Suffice to say that whatever many people may say now, at the time the feminist movement appeared nobody gave a damn about women's rights or abuses. Now everybody are heroes, but when it was risky... we know.
As to Simone de Beauvoir, I really do not know what makes her particularly feminist although she may have professed to be one. Her prominence at any rate is not as a feminist, but because of her hardly feminist relationship with Sartre. But again everyone picks what one needs to proove what one wants for proove.As to the qualifying males as leaders and females as helpers, well enjoy it. I rather prefere to treat as leaders those capable of leading when leading is needed, (be they male or female). I as far as I have ascertained that is what the qur'an says, apar of course of the great stress made on consensus and mutual agreement.
This I guess is still to do with why people dress one way or another, although do not see how.
Salaam
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Salaam huruf,
Can you tell us exactly how many feminists that you actually DO KNOW? Are you a part of the feminist movement as well? Do you know who and how the feminist movement started? Do you know who it's primary backers are? Do you know what's its complete aims are? Do you know the statistics of what its effect has been? Do you know what civil or equal rights the movement has gained for women? Do you know what civil or equal rights were gained for women outside of the feminist movement? Please let me know if you are knowledgable about the issue.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I am sorry but I do know of feminists who militate against the exposure of feminine bodies as flesh for consumtion, but I do not know of any that militates for stripping. If you know of any who is in favor of overexposing women's bodies, I congratulate you. There may be, I don't know, but really you must have looked under the stones to find one. In fact feminism is very much out of fashion except in the mentions of its abusers. Those feminsits that are left in fact are the ones who militate and protest against TV advertising using women's bodies and other abuses. I find totally lacking any basis this characterising of feminists as favouring stripping or indecency. In fact I have seen them accused of everything under the sun, but this is a new one. I mean are you talking about something you definitely know or are you just making assumptions on hearsay? Mind you not that that would surprise me, today we have fake ismalmists, fake terrorists, fake christians, fake filantropists, fake you name it. It would be surprising if they hadn't invented fake feminists also.
bodies
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Salaam again huruf,
The diffence is that I often post Quranic ayaat up for reference to the points that I am making, thus showing where I am getting my opinions from. This way, one that agrees or disagrees can see the evidence I am using. Everyone will have an opinion about how they understand Al Quran. That is natural and why we are all here to learn and discuss with each other.
On the other hand, some like you just spits out opinions and generalizations without showing any ayaat from Al Quran where they are deriving their ideas. That's fine if you are presenting it as your own opinion. But when you enter a discussion and offer your opinions as Islamic or from Al Quran without even an ayat to support your viewpoint, then it has no weight at all; as many people have their own Hislam.
If you notice like in the thread on polygyny, the main posters who are posting on that thread, Samia, brook, siki, myself, and others; although we may disagree with one another, each is still quoting ayaat and arabic words from where we are getting our opinions. This is what the discussions are revolving around so that we may possibly get a better understanding of what Allah is teaching us there.
One could disagree with your interpretation of certain ayaat if you gave the ones you are representing and explained why you believe it means a certain thing, but to not provide any support from Al Quran to support your opinions; then you are frankly no different than a Jew or Christian here trying to tell us what is right or wrong. We are studying answers from the scripture called Al Quran here, for the most part.
A hint to the wise is usually sufficient.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I can say the same thing abut you, only you put your very perosnal opinions and say they are from the Qur'an.
Salaam
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Wa Salaam Samia,
Salaam IQO
This is a good post. I hope now those who throw the accusation of "feminists" on the face of anyone who calls for "women's rights" understand the mistake they are making, especially on this forum.
I agree and like the quoted ideas about women's rights here when they are understood in the context of what Allah gives from Al Quran
- Physical protection and safety ? this means no one has the right to abuse, harass, threaten a woman, or put a woman in a situation that endangers her physical well-being. A woman is to have a feeling of being physically protected.
- Emotional protection and safety ? no one has the right to emotionally abuse or torture a woman, cause her distress, endanger her spiritual well-being or undermine her feeling of emotional security. A woman is to have a feeling of being emotionally protected.
- Appreciation ? a woman should be appreciated for her being a unique human being, created in God's image, and for her role as a woman, helpmeet, wife, and mother ? which is also God-given.
- Respect ? a woman has the right to be respected. She has the right to express her opinions, which should be taken seriously. No one has the right to belittle a woman, deny her importance or boss her around.
The idea of feminism is being brought up to point out how the movement has lead many women to believe that dressing in any manner is a God given right and due the same respect as these other qualities that are mentioned. Women dressing provocatively (and men as well), is not to be respected by those who have faith in the guidance of Allah.
As Salaamu Alaikum,
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Salaam IQO
Here are some examples
- Physical protection and safety ? this means no one has the right to abuse, harass, threaten a woman, or put a woman in a situation that endangers her physical well-being. A woman is to have a feeling of being physically protected.
Therefore wife beating should not be accepted as divine.
- Emotional protection and safety ? no one has the right to emotionally abuse or torture a woman, cause her distress, endanger her spiritual well-being or undermine her feeling of emotional security. A woman is to have a feeling of being emotionally protected.
A wife should not be threatened by the possibility of another wife sharing her husband with her and other children sharing her children's father with them. This is Number One nightmare of muslim women.
Application for divorce is to be filed in a court, like any other case of agreement cancellation, and not left to the sole desire of the husband.- Appreciation ? a woman should be appreciated for her being a unique human being, created in God's image, and for her role as a woman, helpmeet, wife, and mother ? which is also God-given.
But this is not a role for ALL women nor the only role. Women by nature can joggle many roles. God gave the woman ONE exclusive role child bearing, for which she is not to be paid. Even nursing this child is not set as an obligation by God, but as an extra job for which she should be paid. She is already paid for the role of wife, too. Apart from childbirth, a woman has the right to assume ANY lawful job, just like the man.
- Respect ? a woman has the right to be respected. She has the right to express her opinions, which should be taken seriously. No one has the right to belittle a woman, deny her importance or boss her around
Unfortunately, this is easier said than done. Blood money for women is half that of a man; women are required to be two against one male when giving testimony in ALL cases; females are curtailed by other family members in inheritance if they have no brothers in clear violation of God's law.
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Salaam IQO
Wa Salaamu Samia,
I agree and like the quoted ideas about women's rights here when they are understood in the context of what Allah gives from Al Quran
Here are some examples
- Physical protection and safety ? this means no one has the right to abuse, harass, threaten a woman, or put a woman in a situation that endangers her physical well-being. A woman is to have a feeling of being physically protected.
Therefore wife beating should not be accepted as divine.
Agreed, as has to my satisfaction has been sufficiently proven from Al Quran on threads in this forum.
- Emotional protection and safety ? no one has the right to emotionally abuse or torture a woman, cause her distress, endanger her spiritual well-being or undermine her feeling of emotional security. A woman is to have a feeling of being emotionally protected.
A wife should not be threatened by the possibility of another wife sharing her husband with her and other children sharing her children's father with them. This is Number One nightmare of muslim women.
Application for divorce is to be filed in a court, like any other case of agreement cancellation, and not left to the sole desire of the husband.A women claiming emotional abuse because a man takes another wife is only fooling herself, not Allah. Even if what you said were true, that men can only married widows with orphans, then you would now be promoting that Allah has allowed emotional abuse for widowed women with kids. That's absurd to say that least.
Sharing is a Quranic concept, and women are told to share their husbands with other wives just as the Prophet's wives had to share him. Your equating this to threatening with emotional abuse is against Quranic clarity that even you admit to. Suggesting divorce for such situations is paramount to promoting to take apart what Allah has enjoined, to fight against Allah.
It's also a nightmare for many to perform Salaat and give Zakaat; nevertheless it is not abuse to them because they are commanded to accept those things and do them.
- Appreciation ? a woman should be appreciated for her being a unique human being, created in God's image, and for her role as a woman, helpmeet, wife, and mother ? which is also God-given.
But this is not a role for ALL women nor the only role. Women by nature can joggle many roles. God gave the woman ONE exclusive role child bearing, for which she is not to be paid. Even nursing this child is not set as an obligation by God, but as an extra job for which she should be paid. She is already paid for the role of wife, too. Apart from childbirth, a woman has the right to assume ANY lawful job, just like the man.Unfortunately, this is easier said than done.
As the author of the quote, I think this is the MOST IMPORTANT role for women on Earth. Women give birth to the foundation of society. The first teacher is the mother. The first influence on the child is the mother. The child gets the BEST education from a mother COMPLETELY devoted to taking care of the childs needs, especially at the earlier ages. This society has turned mothers into part time parents in order to compete with men in the work place and "equality". This is an unnatural state and IMHO part of the larger problems of the world. Child bearing also carries a responsibility to continue to nuture that new life once in the world. This is evident by the breast milk given as a physical sign of a much greater role which is also mental and spiritual. A woman is not "PAID" for nursing a child, but her necessities are taken care of. "PAID" denotes wages for a job done, where as I see Allah saying to make provisions for them as you did while married if a divorced woman is nursing and taking care of children fulltime. No money has to be given, just shelter, food and clothing and other necessary items such as medical attention, etc.
Women certainly can assume other jobs in the life of human beings. But when they do so with the neglect of their primary role, then this violates the natural order of created things. Many women do this while claiming that they can "balance" all of these roles, when in fact they are neglecting and doing miserable at their primary role, so satisfy their own desires. Others, unfortunately are forced into having to assume many other roles because of the absence of the father's help, and therefore are to be commended for their efforts and doing their best possible.
- Respect ? a woman has the right to be respected. She has the right to express her opinions, which should be taken seriously. No one has the right to belittle a woman, deny her importance or boss her around.
Blood money for women is half that of a man; women are required to be two against one male when giving testimony in ALL cases; females are curtailed by other family members in inheritance if they have no brothers in clear violation of God's law.
As I said before
I agree and like the quoted ideas about women's rights here when they are understood in the context of what Allah gives from Al Quran
Violations of clear Quranic command don't stand up to what is mentioned.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
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A women claiming emotional abuse because a man takes another wife is only fooling herself, not Allah. Even if what you said were true, that men can only married widows with orphans, then you would now be promoting that Allah has allowed emotional abuse for widowed women with kids. That's absurd to say that least.
Sharing is a Quranic concept, and women are told to share their husbands with other wives just as the Prophet's wives had to share him. Your equating this to threatening with emotional abuse is against Quranic clarity that even you admit to. Suggesting divorce for such situations is paramount to promoting to take apart what Allah has enjoined, to fight against Allah.
It's also a nightmare for many to perform Salaat and give Zakaat; nevertheless it is not abuse to them because they are commanded to accept those things and do them.
That has to be the most absurd paragraph I have read on this site.
It's a nightmare to do the 5-times-a-day ritual salat? No problem. Is it seriously a nightmare to give away "2.5%" or any amount of one's money to a good cause? Pure conjecture. For some people, sure. For the overwhelming majority - no way in hell - unless you're suggesting that all/most humans are really that greedy.
A women claiming emotional abuse because a man takes another wife is only fooling herself, not Allah
No, not really. Because, you see, this "Allah" created the woman and gave her specific reactions to specific situations, such as "claiming emotional abuse because a man takes another wife". So in reality, a woman who is feeling emotionally abused because of such a scenario is DOING SO BECAUSE GOD PROGRAMMED IT INTO HER. Period.
Now, if a woman gives consent, it's a wholly different scenario.
Sharing is a Quranic concept, and women are told to share their husbands with other wives just as the Prophet's wives had to share him. Your equating this to threatening with emotional abuse is against Quranic clarity that even you admit to. Suggesting divorce for such situations is paramount to promoting to take apart what Allah has enjoined, to fight against Allah.
Where is the citation? The quran also states no women are like the prophet's wife/wives .
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That has to be the most absurd paragraph I have read on this site.
Let's be straight with each other. With all the crap that's been said on this site, for that to come out of your mouth, it is clear you are trying to make a statement about the poster and not the post; because what was said doesn't meet your criteria even if you disagree with it.
So if you don't like my posts as a whole, just say so. I don't really know you or have read much of your posts, but I will make a note to pay attention since I understand how you feel about mine. But don't hide behind weak accusations like this one!
It's a nightmare to do the 5-times-a-day ritual salat? No problem. Is it seriously a nightmare to give away "2.5%" or any amount of one's money to a good cause? Pure conjecture. For some people, sure. For the overwhelming majority - no way in hell - unless you're suggesting that all/most humans are really that greedy.
So you think that you made some type of point here?
No, not really. Because, you see, this "Allah" created the woman and gave her specific reactions to specific situations, such as "claiming emotional abuse because a man takes another wife". So in reality, a woman who is feeling emotionally abused because of such a scenario is DOING SO BECAUSE GOD PROGRAMMED IT INTO HER. Period.
Now, if a woman gives consent, it's a wholly different scenario.
Where is the citation? The quran also states no women are like the prophet's wife/wives .
No, not really. Because, you see, this "Allah" created the woman and gave her specific reactions to specific situations, such as "claiming emotional abuse because a man takes another wife". So in reality, a woman who is feeling emotionally abused because of such a scenario is DOING SO BECAUSE GOD PROGRAMMED IT INTO HER. Period.
Now, if a woman gives consent, it's a wholly different scenario.
Where is the citation? The quran also states no women are like the prophet's wife/wives .
Now, if a woman gives consent, it's a wholly different scenario.
Make up your mind. Do you even have a position on whether ALLAH makes polygyny halaal or not? Or is it just for each individual to make up their own mind on? How can a woman give consent on what is haraam? If it is halaal, how can it be emotional distress for her created by Allah, and not her own aversion to what should be natural to her?
Actually, I doubt you really have a position and you just probably go with the flow.
Where is the citation? The quran also states no women are like the prophet's wife/wives .
Women are told to share their husbands in 43. It is not mentioned in the Quran exactly where the wives of the Prophet were told to do so, just acknowledged that they did.
How are the wives of the Prophet different from other women? Why don't you put things in their context and not try to make them suit your needs. What makes you different than a sunni? Or are you sunni?
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Let's be straight with each other. With all the crap that's been said on this site, for that to come out of your mouth, it is clear you are trying to make a statement about the poster and not the post; because what was said doesn't meet your criteria even if you disagree with it.
Hyperbole - recognize it, and deal with it. I don't understand why you took it so personally, is the issue of polygamy very close to your heart or something?
So if you don't like my posts as a whole, just say so. I don't really know you or have read much of your posts, but I will make a note to pay attention since I understand how you feel about mine. But don't hide behind weak accusations like this one!
I said paragraph for a reason.
So you think that you made some type of point here?
Depends on your perspective. Let's keep the idea of "hardship in deen" aside until it has solid grounds, eh?
Make up your mind.
Can you take some time out of being mortally offended and take some time to think as to why I wrote that? How would there be a conflict of interests if the woman gave consent to polygyny?
Do you even have a position on whether ALLAH makes polygyny halaal or not? Or is it just for each individual to make up their own mind on? How can a woman give consent on what is haraam? If it is halaal, how can it be emotional distress for her created by Allah, and not her own aversion to what should be natural to her?
If it is halaal, then the only plausible method for avoiding conflict and maintaining harmony would be to have the consent of the existing wife/wives. Natural aversion would happen when a woman doesn't give consent and the husband goes ahead. Place yourself in the shoes of such a woman.
Women are told to share their husbands in 43. It is not mentioned in the Quran exactly where the wives of the Prophet were told to do so, just acknowledged that they did.
No, 443 really doesn't. Purely circular logic there. 43 shows men can have polygynous relationships because sharing is a Quranic concept and women are told to share their husbands because 43 shows men can have polygynous... In other words - that sentence had zero quranic basis. It shows nowhere that women of the prophet were instructed to share, how about the seemingly alien concept to you, that they just gave their consent?
Now, if caring is sharing, why your aversion to polyandry?
How are the wives of the Prophet different from other women? Why don't you put things in their context and not try to make them suit your needs. What makes you different than a sunni? Or are you sunni?
Please don't play silly tricks. Here is your original quote
Sharing is a Quranic concept, and women are told to share their husbands with other wives just as the Prophet's wives had to share him.
Now, you brought ZERO evidence for that aside from one verse based on circular logic and another based on an irrelevant and unreferenced verse which gave no actual information as to how the wives came to be just that, wives.
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Hyperbole - recognize it, and deal with it. I don't understand why you took it so personally, is the issue of polygamy very close to your heart or something?
If you didn't notice, this thread is about women that dress indecently. Maybe polygyny is close to your heart or something. Did your family participate and you felt left alone or something? ( I guess it's okay to ask about your personal life since everyone here seems so concerned about mine.)
I said paragraph for a reason.
And as I noted, your paragraph said basically nothing.
Depends on your perspective. Let's keep the idea of "hardship in deen" aside until it has solid grounds, eh?
Can you take some time out of being mortally offended and take some time to think as to why I wrote that? How would there be a conflict of interests if the woman gave consent to polygyny?
You do as you like and I will do as I like. Im not mortally offended by anything you or anyone else says here. I see what you have to say as no value so far. I am only entertaining myself with you.
Whether a woman gives her consent or not to polygyny is not necessary to make it halaal. She could also give or not give her consent for the man to pray, doesn't mean he should wait on her to do so.
If it is halaal, then the only plausible method for avoiding conflict and maintaining harmony would be to have the consent of the existing wife/wives. Natural aversion would happen when a woman doesn't give consent and the husband goes ahead. Place yourself in the shoes of such a woman.
If it is halaal? So as I guess, you really don't know or have an opinion in here one way or another. Instead of coming here to add some knowledge or value, you are just here to start crap.
If you are married, maybe you can also ask your wife for permission to go to the bathroom. Cause Im sure you won't be getting another wife, if you have one to begin with. Natural aversion occurs when a woman doesn't accept that Allah made polygyny halaal and they have no right to forbid their husband to particpate. What happens at that point usually is the same.
And I don't wear women shoes. I'm happy and satisfied to be a man.
No, 443 really doesn't. Purely circular logic there. 43 shows men can have polygynous relationships because sharing is a Quranic concept and women are told to share their husbands because 43 shows men can have polygynous... In other words - that sentence had zero quranic basis. It shows nowhere that women of the prophet were instructed to share, how about the seemingly alien concept to you, that they just gave their consent?
You must have confused yourself here. If men are given the right to have polygynous relationships, then no woman has the right to make haraam for a man what Allah has made halaal, under any circumstances. Do you need me to post that ayat too?
They gave their consent to share because they were believers and had no other opinion about the matter when Allah and His messenger had decreed a thing(polygyny for example). I doubt that the messenger went to his wives asking permission if he could marry another wife.
Now, if caring is sharing, why your aversion to polyandry?
If you have a wife, or if you ever get one if you don't have one, then maybe you can ask her if you can share her with another man. I don't practice what is forbidden in Al Quran. If you don't know where polyandry is forbidden in Al Quran, then I am not going to tell you, find it yourself.
Please don't play silly tricks. Here is your original quote
Now, you brought ZERO evidence for that aside from one verse based on circular logic and another based on an irrelevant and unreferenced verse which gave no actual information as to how the wives came to be just that, wives.
It doesn't matter how they came to be his wives. We are told that they are believers and that believers have no opinion of their own when it comes to a matter decided by Allah and His Messenger. So unlike people like you, I can have confidence that they didn't argue back and forth about whether or not the Prophet could have more than one wife and if he needed his other wife(s) permission to do so. It seems to be you who lacks faith; Allah has already confirmed that they had faith. So if you have evidence that they didn't and questioned Allah's command, then present it or shut up!
Now go and study and bring back something meaningful to contribute.
As Salaamu Alaikum,
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Salaam IQO
Therefore wife beating should not be accepted as divine.
Re 434
Studying this surah we can see that man is reminded of his role as ?qawwamoona?. As I said earlier, in response to OPF, I believe a man has been given a role of greater responsibility and here he is reminded not to abuse that role.This subject has been discussed in this forum and I see it as where there is fear of desertion from a woman that men should take certain steps before allowing her to go. However there are some who still think that God has allowed a man to beat his wife.
Those who justify violence
Before we go any further it is important to understand the basic nature of domestic violence, exercised by many men whether Muslim or non Muslim, whether educated or uneducated. The main trigger for violence is loss of self control and under English law men were getting away even with murdering their wives. Many walked free on the basis of manslaughter the excuse was a spur-of-the-moment loss of self control, caused by provocation.In the above surah, after reminding the man of his responsibility, he is urged to exercise self restraint and not lose his temper, even faced by a provocative scenario.
So called Muslim men have used violence against their wives; recently a Saudi TV-presenter suffered abuse, I think instead of just saying that..wife beating should not be accepted as divine, those who claim this as their divine law should be sued in an Islamic court of law for failing to apply the above procedure. I am convinced they would fail to justify violence because it just is not possible to maintain one?s anger with the required, long cooling-down period.
Best regards
farida -
Wa Salaam Samia,
I agree and like the quoted ideas about women's rights here when they are understood in the context of what Allah gives from Al Quran
- Physical protection and safety ? this means no one has the right to abuse, harass, threaten a woman, or put a woman in a situation that endangers her physical well-being. A woman is to have a feeling of being physically protected.
- Emotional protection and safety ? no one has the right to emotionally abuse or torture a woman, cause her distress, endanger her spiritual well-being or undermine her feeling of emotional security. A woman is to have a feeling of being emotionally protected.
- Appreciation ? a woman should be appreciated for her being a unique human being, created in God's image, and for her role as a woman, helpmeet, wife, and mother ? which is also God-given.
- Respect ? a woman has the right to be respected. She has the right to express her opinions, which should be taken seriously. No one has the right to belittle a woman, deny her importance or boss her around.
The idea of feminism is being brought up to point out how the movement has lead many women to believe that dressing in any manner is a God given right and due the same respect as these other qualities that are mentioned. Women dressing provocatively (and men as well), is not to be respected by those who have faith in the guidance of Allah.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
As Salaamu Alaikum IQO
It is one thing to list the rights of the women and another to follow it, if only these laws were followed no one man or woman could have been able to manipulate the situation and start the movement you call feminism .. All such movements start as a result of the absence of due rights.
You have good knowledge of Qur?an; therefore I would like to know what do you understand from surah 818 and 819. I look forward to your response.
Best regards
farida -
- Physical protection and safety ? this means no one has the right to abuse, harass, threaten a woman, or put a woman in a situation that endangers her physical well-being. A woman is to have a feeling of being physically protected.
- Emotional protection and safety ? no one has the right to emotionally abuse or torture a woman, cause her distress, endanger her spiritual well-being or undermine her feeling of emotional security. A woman is to have a feeling of being emotionally protected.
- Appreciation ? a woman should be appreciated for her being a unique human being, created in God's image, and for her role as a woman, helpmeet, wife, and mother ? which is also God-given.
- Respect ? a woman has the right to be respected. She has the right to express her opinions, which should be taken seriously. No one has the right to belittle a woman, deny her importance or boss her around.
Let's put it in this way
- Physical protection and safety ? this means no one has the right to abuse, harass, threaten a man, or put a man in a situation that endangers him physical well-being. A man is to have a feeling of being physically protected.
- Emotional protection and safety ? no one has the right to emotionally abuse or torture a man, cause him distress, endanger his spiritual well-being or undermine his feeling of emotional security. A man is to have a feeling of being emotionally protected.
- Appreciation ? a man should be appreciated for his being a unique human being, created in God's image, and for his role as a man, helpmeet, husband, and father ? which is also God-given.
- Respect ? a man has the right to be respected. He has the right to express his opinions, which should be taken seriously. No one has the right to belittle a man, deny his importance or boss him around.
Above four points explains the current position of a man in a society. How would men feel after reading those four points about their ownselves? It's really tough.
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PEACE Tarihk,
Do not say that your surroundings are against you. A man's surroundings are never against him; they are there to aid him, and all those outward occurrences over which you lose sweetness and peace of mind are the very conditions necessary to your development, and it is only by meeting and overcoming them that you can learn, and grow, and ripen. The fault is in yourself.
Peace. Should i just close my eyes and pretend everything's perfect?
It is only by meeting and overcoming them that you can learn, and grow, and ripen. The fault is in yourself.
You kafir, how dare you say personal things about my look whereas you never saw me. Listen you misguided idiot, i DO NOT go to the beach to swim or sunbathe, nor do i wear t shirts. If you think that men and women are physically similar then maybe you could give birth. I can't believe the kind of idiots passing off as free minds. Is there any way to quit out of this forum?
Tarihk, you begin most of your posts with "peace", yet your state of mind is not one of peace. You know that the creator would not approve of your post here... for everyone's sake, most of all yours please try to maintain a state of peace. peace
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Salaam huruf,
You continue to rant your personal observations about this forum and the people on it with their comments; while you say that you don't do that. If it is a waste of time, why are your posts also some of the longest? What have you offered from Al Quran to support your points of view? Do you have anything to offer except your opinions and how you see things?
Simply put, if you don't like a particular thread, stop posting in it. It's that simple. No one is enforcing you to endure the dialogue that others choose to engage in. Choose another thread that is more suitable to your desires and stop trying to tell others what they should or should not be doing. You don't know what helps another person or not.
With that said, I have no problem for you to continue posting your rants. It doesn't bother me to read them or respond to them. It is what I expect on this type of forum. You get all kinds, some good, some bad; just like human beings.
Peace IQO,
I hope you apply all the above to yourself as well, as you are surely guilty of all the above.
NOT INTERESTED IN ARGUING.
Peace.