Why do women dress indecently?
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A women claiming emotional abuse because a man takes another wife is only fooling herself, not Allah.
I think you are the one fooling yourself. I pray for the day such attitudes leave the muslim male mindset. Yes polygamy is sometimes wife abuse. Some men take another wife to 'punish' wife no. 1 for not being good enough or what he wanted etc (But hey, its his right, yeah?). Then forbid her to have the right to leave him. Sorry but thats such a selfish attitude. The man who thinks Polygamy is his absolute right is only fooling himself, not Allah.
Sharing is a Quranic concept, and women are told to share their husbands with other wives just as the Prophet's wives had to share him. Your equating this to threatening with emotional abuse is against Quranic clarity that even you admit to. Suggesting divorce for such situations is paramount to promoting to take apart what Allah has enjoined, to fight against Allah.
Yes, some women may be able to accept this situation, thats their business. If a woman is broken hearted because her faithful love and devotion is repaid by her husband giving his time, love and **** to some other woman. Why should she have to stay with this? On what grounds should she be forced to stay? She should have the freedom to leave and not be blackmailed into staying by her husbands false righteousness ('if you were a good muslim you would let me do this/wouldn't cry/wouldn't divorce/ would work to please me' or by him holding their kids to manipulate her into staying.
I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance. I have seen this behaviour and situations with my own eyes and heard this reasoning with my own ears. For many women in some 'Shariah ruled' countries they have absolutely no comeback when their husbands treat them like ****.
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Peace IQO,
I hope you apply all the above to yourself as well, as you are surely guilty of all the above.
NOT INTERESTED IN ARGUING.
Peace.
Then don't respond with your comments! peace
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You people act like polygyny is the only marriage institution where women are abused or unhappy. It's really sad to see you making such sad excuses for your arguments and to have no Quranic evidence to support yourself.
I DON'T AGREE WITH ABUSING WOMEN IN MONOGAMOUS OR POLYGYNOUS MARRIAGES. IN REALITY, MORE WOMEN ARE ABUSED DAILY IN MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS THAN CAN EVEN BE COMPARED TO POLGYNOUS RELATIONSHIPS.
The issue is not about men who practice polygyny but don't live up to the standards that Allah has given in Al Quran on how to treat their wives, the issue is whether Allah made polygyny halaal or not and thereby it is a God given right to men that follow the guidance given to him when doing so. Women (and men) claim emotional abuse and anguish from many different situations. Sometimes it is true and sometimes it is self realized and doesn't actually exist as abuse from the other partner. It is just one partner not doing what the other partner likes. Rights are weighed according to BOTH parties rights as given by Allah. It is is a black mans right to build a house and live peacefully, but a white man doesn't like him in his neighborhood so that it causes him MENTAL or EMOTIONAL STRESS, it is NOT the black man's fault. The problem exists in the mentally and thinking of the white man. The same parable is similar for women who have mental and emotional stress due to polygyny. The problem is their perception and understanding of polygyny, assuming that they are claiming to be believers in Allah and the guidance given by Him in Al Quran. Women who are not following Quranic guidance, then I would not expect them to accept polygyny. The problem is that women who are supposed to be, or claim to be following Quranic guidance, have taken on the attitude of those who don't. (including some men who are obviously too in touch with their feminine side.)
Mental or emotional abuse of a wife or a husband, occurs when the other spouse does something intentional to cause this situation that goes against the commands of Allah. A man getting another wife because he chooses to does not meet this criteria. A man getting a second wife because he wants to punish his first wife meets this criteria. I am not trying to judge or use individuals who obviously disobey Allah in their affairs, as a guide to what is halaal and permitted by Allah. When speaking about what Allah allows or commands in Al Quran, the natural assumption is that the person practicing or carrying out that command is doing so as Allah has commanded to the best of their ability, and not with other motives. You people can't get your personal experiences and observations out of your mind to see the guidance that Allah gives. Everything to you is based off of your personal observation or experience in success or failure with a command. If we all used your criteria, NONE WOULD EVER GET MARRIED BECAUSE MOST MARRIAGES ARE FAILING TODAY AND BOTH WOMEN AND MEN ARE BEING ABUSED IN THEM!
I also could care less about what sunnis and other sects are doing in their countries with how they understand and practice their religion, when it comes to trying to understand Al Quran. Their examples, good or bad, are not examples to be used as evidence to prove or disprove something from Al Quran. Those of your emotional creatures out there that can't separate this from the guidance in the scripture, just start a crying thread so that you can vent all of your frustrations about how much wrong the human being does and how hypocritical they are.
BUT DON'T PASS OFF YOUR PERSONAL FRUSTRATIONS AS EVIDENCE OF HOW TO UNDERSTAND THE GUIDANCE FROM ALLAH GIVEN IN AL QURAN. STUDY THE SCRIPTURE AND MAKE VALID ARGUMENTS BASED FROM THE SCRIPTURE, AND NOT YOUR OWN EXPERIENCE. AT LEAST THAT WAY I CAN RESPECT WHAT YOU HAVE TO SAY EVEN IF I DISAGREE WITH IT!
I think you are the one fooling yourself. I pray for the day such attitudes leave the muslim male mindset. Yes polygamy is sometimes wife abuse. Some men take another wife to 'punish' wife no. 1 for not being good enough or what he wanted etc (But hey, its his right, yeah?). Then forbid her to have the right to leave him. Sorry but thats such a selfish attitude. The man who thinks Polygamy is his absolute right is only fooling himself, not Allah.
Yes, some women may be able to accept this situation, thats their business. If a woman is broken hearted because her faithful love and devotion is repaid by her husband giving his time, love and **** to some other woman. Why should she have to stay with this? On what grounds should she be forced to stay? She should have the freedom to leave and not be blackmailed into staying by her husbands false righteousness ('if you were a good muslim you would let me do this/wouldn't cry/wouldn't divorce/ would work to please me' or by him holding their kids to manipulate her into staying.
I'm not speaking from a position of ignorance. I have seen this behaviour and situations with my own eyes and heard this reasoning with my own ears. For many women in some 'Shariah ruled' countries they have absolutely no comeback when their husbands treat them like ****.
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As Salaamu Alaikum IQO
Wa Salaam Farida
It is one thing to list the rights of the women and another to follow it, if only these laws were followed no one man or woman could have been able to manipulate the situation and start the movement you call feminism .. All such movements start as a result of the absence of due rights.
I agree with you here and the same can be said of all human rights for all groups of people. The problem, as one poster stated is that when these movements go to the extreme, they lose their original purpose and become distortions of the truth and purpose. So as the female that I quoted stated, some are reclaiming the original purpose and putting it back into it's proper context from those who took the movement to the extreme, IMHO.
You have good knowledge of Qur?an; therefore I would like to know what do you understand from surah 818 and 819. I look forward to your response.
Best regards
faridaAlhamdulilaah, thanks for the compliment. But I will never claim that I know all of Al Quran. Allah willing, I will continue to learn from it for the rest of my life.
As to the ayaat you mention, my understanding is simple on those two ayaat. Just that those infant girl babies will be asked why they were killed as evidence against those who committed the crime. (Not that Allah needs evidence, but witnesses are a common theme for the Day of Judgement). If you have further inquiry, please feel free to ask in more detail.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
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Peace
I'm just suprised how frightened some men are of these women showing off their bodies. I really have no problem with it. I'll check a lady out no matter what she's wearing if she grabs my attention. I think what would be best for each man is to learn self control, reel in those senses, and not let them run this way and that. Do not let them lead you to wrong doing. It just seems to me like it is easier to blame a woman for looking too sexy.
Joe
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Again, check out the mirror.
peace
but said
Peace IQO,
I hope you apply all the above to yourself as well, as you are surely guilty of all the above.
NOT INTERESTED IN ARGUING.
Peace.
SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE IS LYING! nope wow )
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You do as you like and I will do as I like. Im not mortally offended by anything you or anyone else says here. I see what you have to say as no value so far. I am only entertaining myself with you.
For someone entertaining themselves, you do seem to be awfully defensive.
Whether a woman gives her consent or not to polygyny is not necessary to make it halaal.
Actually, I'd say so. How would you maintain harmony then? You'd think an omnipotent god might make his mind up.
Natural aversion occurs when a woman doesn't accept that Allah made polygyny halaal and they have no right to forbid their husband to particpate.
Which is of course, why the overwhelming majority of people are monogamous and intend to stay that way? It seems more like social conditioning than any "natural factor". The difference being, that women tend to oppose it universally, east or west.
And I don't wear women shoes. I'm happy and satisfied to be a man.
)
You must have confused yourself here. If men are given the right to have polygynous relationships, then no woman has the right to make haraam for a man what Allah has made halaal, under any circumstances. Do you need me to post that ayat too?
No, I think you are confusing yourself. I replied, again, to your false statement and the erroneous one after it, about the quran
Women are told to share their husbands in 43. It is not mentioned in the Quran exactly where the wives of the Prophet were told to do so, just acknowledged that they did.
When pushed for evidence, you brought nothing except for rubbish based on circular reasoning. Please don't dodge that simple fact.
They gave their consent to share because they were believers and had no other opinion about the matter when Allah and His messenger had decreed a thing(polygyny for example). I doubt that the messenger went to his wives asking permission if he could marry another wife.
Do remember what the quran says about people following conjecture. 4128 - is that there to fill space? What about 4238, did the prophet skip over that tidbit when going wife shopping?
If you have a wife, or if you ever get one if you don't have one, then maybe you can ask her if you can share her with another man. I don't practice what is forbidden in Al Quran. If you don't know where polyandry is forbidden in Al Quran, then I am not going to tell you, find it yourself.
But I didn't say I wanted to share sun. So caring is sharing, but only when it suits you. I see.
It doesn't matter how they came to be his wives. We are told that they are believers and that believers have no opinion of their own when it comes to a matter decided by Allah and His Messenger. So unlike people like you, I can have confidence that they didn't argue back and forth about whether or not the Prophet could have more than one wife and if he needed his other wife(s) permission to do so. It seems to be you who lacks faith; Allah has already confirmed that they had faith. So if you have evidence that they didn't and questioned Allah's command, then present it or shut up!
I see. Now it doesn't matter, because it doesn't happen to fit your original fallacy. )
Now go and study and bring back something meaningful to contribute.
When you bring a consistent argument, definitely.
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but said
SOUNDS LIKE SOMEONE IS LYING! nope wow )
That's arguing? Interesting.
This will be my last post to you about this. Why do you have to win every single arguement in every single thread you participate? Go ahead I'll let you have the last say. Enjoy your victory.
Peace.
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Thank you! Now get off my jock and stop arguing with me unless you have something meaningful and intellectual to add to the thread! You lose! voodoo
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
That's arguing? Interesting.
This will be my last post to you about this. Why do you have to win every single arguement in every single thread you participate? Go ahead I'll let you have the last say. Enjoy your victory.
Peace.
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Got Milk? Cause your arguments, comments and reasoning suck. Why are you wasting my time when there is a thread and topic of discussion here? Do you need some toys to keep you company? What's your problem with polygyny anyway? Did your wife tell you that if you didn't fight for it to be haraam here that she would divorce you? Or hold back on you? Or, if you aren't married, was it the woman you are interested in who threatened you? hmm
Listen OPF, or whatever or whoever you are ( I don't even know if you are a man or not), find someone else to play your childish games. If you want to argue with me based from Al Quran cause you don't like my points of view, then fine. I can accept that. But take your other trash and use it with someone who cares. I don't have time. Whether I like someone that posts or not, I still prefer to respond to those that have meaningful Quranic points of view; whether I agree or disagree with them. You're just a pu......well, nevermind.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
For someone entertaining themselves, you do seem to be awfully defensive.
Actually, I'd say so. How would you maintain harmony then? You'd think an omnipotent god might make his mind up.
Which is of course, why the overwhelming majority of people are monogamous and intend to stay that way? It seems more like social conditioning than any "natural factor". The difference being, that women tend to oppose it universally, east or west.
)
No, I think you are confusing yourself. I replied, again, to your false statement and the erroneous one after it, about the quran
When pushed for evidence, you brought nothing except for rubbish based on circular reasoning. Please don't dodge that simple fact.
Do remember what the quran says about people following conjecture. 4128 - is that there to fill space? What about 4238, did the prophet skip over that tidbit when going wife shopping?
But I didn't say I wanted to share sun. So caring is sharing, but only when it suits you. I see.
I see. Now it doesn't matter, because it doesn't happen to fit your original fallacy. )
When you bring a consistent argument, definitely.
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The problem exists in the mentally and thinking of the white man. The same parable is similar for women who have mental and emotional stress due to polygyny. The problem is their perception and understanding of polygyny, assuming that they are claiming to be believers in Allah and the guidance given by Him in Al Quran. Women who are not following Quranic guidance, then I would not expect them to accept polygyny. The problem is that women who are supposed to be, or claim to be following Quranic guidance, have taken on the attitude of those who don't. (including some men who are obviously too in touch with their feminine side.)
You're making Man sound all powerful here. Reread my post before you argue against something I never even said. I said SOMETIMES polygamy is wife abuse (not always if the women are genuinely not bothered). I'm not saying polygamy is forbidden, I'm saying its wrong to blame the woman for not accepting it or for saying divorce is a sin for the woman. A woman should never be forced to stay or made to feel guilty if she decides its best for her not to be in such a situation. If a man choses his 'right' to take up another wife, a woman has the right to divorce him. In your previous post you said this is no grounds for divorce. A woman married a single man, suddenly he is not single - he's changed from what she married, she hasn't & is as faithful as ever. Why should she have to accept (or feel bad for NOT accepting) 'half' a husband when perhaps emotionally, physically, sexually, financially, whatever, its not enough for her? Perhaps her husband will no longer seem attractive to her, she may no longer want him to touch her - it happens. Women tend to be more in touch with their emotions when it comes to the physical relationship. Sure she could still give him what he wants, but be completely turned off (no religion or teaching can force you to find someone else desirable).
Maybe the woman who's husband takes another would feel inadequate or have damaged self esteem.
Your analogy is very flawed a racist man not wanting to live on the same street with someone of another colour (quite impersonal) is WAAYYY different to sharing a house and a bed and maybe a family with someone (something very personal).The prophet's wives were obviously married to a prophet, not a regular muslim guy. Too many muslim guys think following the Prophet (pbuh) makes them as attractive as the Prophet nope they are not.
For someone who (I presume) has more than one wife or maybe intends to have more than one. You have very, very little understanding of the mentality of women.
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ou're just a pu......well, nevermind.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Why bother? Do those romanized words carry any meaning?
rotflAnyway, the point of my post was simply. You lambasted someone else for "not having a quranic foundation" in their arguments yet you produced this gem
Women are told to share their husbands in 43. It is not mentioned in the Quran exactly where the wives of the Prophet were told to do so, just acknowledged that they did.
Simple as that.
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Salaams,
Understanding women's mental makeup and giving in to them are two different things. Stop worrying about who or how many I am married to. Too many of you here focus to much on personal things and not enough on what Allah says in Al Quran. Do you know what principles are? They are not knew everytime someone becomes unhappy. They are based on some standard criteria, in this case Al Quran, that doesn't change with the times or peoples emotions. Polygyny is a principal in Al Quran and the Deen of Al Islam, whether you, myself or anyone likes it or not.
Women and men can divorce for any reason they choose to me in the Deen of Al Islam. They can also do anything else in life that they choose in the Deen of Al Islam unless it directly affects the well being of another physically. That being said, that doesn't make it accepted or pleasing to Allah. I never said a woman divorcing her husband is a sin; don't know where you got that. But in divorce, usually someone or both are to blame. The reason usually lets you know who. Many women divorce their men because he can't make enough money or the money that she thought he would be able to. That is there right also; doesn't mean that it is pleasing to Allah.
Also maybe you forgot that Allah said the Muhammad was a man just like us, and a good example. Maybe you forget that it was the Quran that came out of Muhammad's mouth, so it was what he followed; and we are to follow that also. Maybe you think since he was a Prophet, that we don't have to follow all of what he followed from Al Quran.
To you be your way and to me mine.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
You're making Man sound all powerful here. Reread my post before you argue against something I never even said. I said SOMETIMES polygamy is wife abuse (not always if the women are genuinely not bothered). I'm not saying polygamy is forbidden, I'm saying its wrong to blame the woman for not accepting it or for saying divorce is a sin for the woman. A woman should never be forced to stay or made to feel guilty if she decides its best for her not to be in such a situation. If a man choses his 'right' to take up another wife, a woman has the right to divorce him. In your previous post you said this is no grounds for divorce. A woman married a single man, suddenly he is not single - he's changed from what she married, she hasn't & is as faithful as ever. Why should she have to accept (or feel bad for NOT accepting) 'half' a husband when perhaps emotionally, physically, sexually, financially, whatever, its not enough for her? Perhaps her husband will no longer seem attractive to her, she may no longer want him to touch her - it happens. Women tend to be more in touch with their emotions when it comes to the physical relationship. Sure she could still give him what he wants, but be completely turned off (no religion or teaching can force you to find someone else desirable).
Maybe the woman who's husband takes another would feel inadequate or have damaged self esteem.
Your analogy is very flawed a racist man not wanting to live on the same street with someone of another colour (quite impersonal) is WAAYYY different to sharing a house and a bed and maybe a family with someone (something very personal).The prophet's wives were obviously married to a prophet, not a regular muslim guy. Too many muslim guys think following the Prophet (pbuh) makes them as attractive as the Prophet nope they are not.
For someone who (I presume) has more than one wife or maybe intends to have more than one. You have very, very little understanding of the mentality of women.
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Peace all, this thread has really become yuck
IQO
I DON'T AGREE WITH ABUSING WOMEN IN MONOGAMOUS OR POLYGYNOUS MARRIAGES. IN REALITY, MORE WOMEN ARE ABUSED DAILY IN MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS THAN CAN EVEN BE COMPARED TO POLGYNOUS RELATIONSHIPS.Am very happy about your first sentence and didn't expect anything else from you, but why do you then fall into commonplaces that have absolutely no basis ? I'm not even saying that it is the opposite to truth, but there is just no way of proving one position or the other.
about feminism the movement started with the suffragettes in GB which fought to get the right to vote, no the right to walk around naked.
i'm off, am getting too old for this
lk
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Wa Salaam Farida
As to the ayaat you mention, my understanding is simple on those two ayaat. Just that those infant girl babies will be asked why they were killed as evidence against those who committed the crime. (Not that Allah needs evidence, but witnesses are a common theme for the Day of Judgement). If you have further inquiry, please feel free to ask in more detail.
As Salaamu Alaikum, )
As Salaamu Alaikum IQO,
I see this surah differently, in my opinion surah 81 is dealing with the present era (approaching hour) when drastic changes will occur from space to earth. At one stage it talks about the camel being abandoned which is happening now; who cares about a camel when you have cars.
Regarding the literal meaning of verses 8-9, there is no mention of of an infant girl And when/if the buried alive was asked/questioned And when/if the buried alive was asked/questioned?For what crime was she killed? This I believe is about this time, when women will get the rights of redress.
The Qur?an gave women their rights, and during the time of the prophet women were known to speak up for and protect these rights. But with the male, draconian interpretation of the Quran and the distortive input from Hadith, their voice was suppressed and their privileges were buried alive.
I would welcome your input here.
Best regards -
Salaam Elke,
Peace all, this thread has really become yuck
IQO
Am very happy about your first sentence and didn't expect anything else from you, but why do you then fall into commonplaces that have absolutely no basis ? I'm not even saying that it is the opposite to truth, but there is just no way of proving one position or the other.The facts are there to prove that more women are abused in monogamous relationships than polygynous ones. THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE DATA IN THE WORLD SUPPORTS AND PROVES THAT POLYGYNY IS PRACTICED BY WAY LESS THAN 10% OF THE POPULATION. IF IT WAS EVEN 10%, AND 100% OF POLYGYNOUS MEN ABUSED THEIR WIVES, THAT NUMBER WOULD STILL NOT EQUAL THE NUMBER OF WOMEN ABUSED IN MONOGAMOUS MARRIAGES, OF WHICH ABOUT 50% TO 60% OF THOSE MARRIAGES END IN DIVORCE. SPOUSAL ABUSE IS REPORTED BY ALL AUTHORITIES TO BE COMMITTED 90% OR MORE BY THE HUSBANDS. THEREFORE A LOGICAL AND REASONABLE CONCLUSION BASED ON JUST THIS EVIDENCE ALONE, SUPPORTS THAT MORE WOMEN ARE ABUSED IN MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS THAN IN POLYGYNOUS RELATIONSHIPS!
Whether you accept those as facts as reality or not, they are what is going on in the world. If you choose to not accept them, that's just you putting on blinders to not accept that more women are abused in monogamous marriages than in polygynous marriages.
about feminism the movement started with the suffragettes in GB which fought to get the right to vote, no the right to walk around naked.
i'm off, am getting too old for this  
lk
Maybe you missed the point about how movements start and how they can then turn to being fanatical or extreme and lose their original purpose. Try reading all the posts in this thread if you did. It would help in making your comments about the observations you perceive.
Btw, do you know who were the STARTERS of the feminist movement, not WHERE it started? By STARTERS, I mean who promoted it with their money and financed the campaign for it; that's very important in knowing the real agenda or intent for a movement.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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IQO,
The facts are there to prove that more women are abused in monogamous relationships than polygynous ones. THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT THE DATA IN THE WORLD SUPPORTS AND PROVES THAT POLYGYNY IS PRACTICED BY WAY LESS THAN 10% OF THE POPULATION. IF IT WAS EVEN 10%, AND 100% OF POLYGYNOUS MEN ABUSED THEIR WIVES, THAT NUMBER WOULD STILL NOT EQUAL THE NUMBER OF WOMEN ABUSED IN MONOGAMOUS MARRIAGES, OF WHICH ABOUT 50% TO 60% OF THOSE MARRIAGES END IN DIVORCE. SPOUSAL ABUSE IS REPORTED BY ALL AUTHORITIES TO BE COMMITTED 90% OR MORE BY THE HUSBANDS. THEREFORE A LOGICAL AND REASONABLE CONCLUSION BASED ON JUST THIS EVIDENCE ALONE, SUPPORTS THAT MORE WOMEN ARE ABUSED IN MONOGAMOUS RELATIONSHIPS THAN IN POLYGYNOUS RELATIONSHIPS!
that's exactly the point. for sure there is more abuse as there are so many more monogamous marriages . there is just no point in comparing, or if you wanted to do it, you have to take into account the respective percentages, that is i you wish to come to a scientifically correct outcome. Now if you only want figures to support your point of view, any politician knows how to make them speak their way...
about the blinders ... to each his own angel
peace
lk -
Salaams Elke,
The point is that no one has any statistics on how many women in polygynous marriages are abused. Most that are not in a polygynous marriage just ASSUME that the percentages must be very high since it APPEARS that most people don't agree with polygyny, hence emotional abuse for the women MUST be occurring in most people's minds. But they have no data or facts to back up this idea.
The fact that polygynous marriages or of such a minority means that the real problem exists in monogamous marriages since the overwhelming majority of wives that are abused are in monogamous marriages. The number in polygynous marriages are so insignificant, that their percentages wouldn't matter much; but are unknown anyway. No one ever talks about the polygynous marriages where all the wives are perfectly happy, with normal problems that are not abuse, and have live in harmony while raising outstanding families.
SO THE POINT IS THAT USING AN ASSUMPTION THAT POLYGYNY IS EMOTIONAL ABUSE TO WIVES TO TRY TO RESTRICT POLYGYNY IS RIDICULOUS AND UNPROVEN BY ANY SCIENTIFIC MEANS. IT IS ALSO USELESS TO ARGUE FOR SUCH REASONS ON A FORUM THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BASE IT'S CONCLUSIONS FROM WHAT ALLAH HAS GIVEN AS GUIDANCE IN AL QURAN!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
IQO,
that's exactly the point. for sure there is more abuse as there are so many more monogamous marriages . there is just no point in comparing, or if you wanted to do it, you have to take into account the respective percentages, that is i you wish to come to a scientifically correct outcome. Now if you only want figures to support your point of view, any politician knows how to make them speak their way...
about the blinders ... to each his own angel
peace
lk