Face cover: God's only flaw?
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If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?
I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.
The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.
A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.
You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I'm not suggesting anything other than that there can be weak conclusions drawn here.
I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.
Hardly in this case, because as I said
you have to note that whatever is written between 2427 and 2432 is incumbent on all believers, men or women so it is every bit as men's business as it is women's, just as women have the right not to be gawked at by men (2430), men have the right to tell women to cover up in 2431.
So there has to be something of a consensus here. Or you'll have a group of believers following their interpretation of 2431 and telling women to wear headscarves over their heads and chests, and another group telling women to pull their scarves over their chests alone. And this is quite an issue in sectarian circles and people do get killed over this trivial rubbish.
The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.
Exactly so, but that doesn't change anything.
A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.
That's not an issue at all though, it has no logical connection to what needs clarification here. Of course a headscarf is mentioned, what is NOT mentioned is that the headscarf must be on the head. Just because it's called a headscarf doesn't mean it can only be used on the head or MUST be used on the head.
You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.
Where is that post? In any case, it's very hard to judge how important this ayat would be in reality because there are too many variables, but considering the quran only dedicates a single verse and even then, weakly implies it (if it even does, which I find it wouldn't) it doesn't really make a case for it.
The verse assumes the women in question already have headscarves, what happens to women who don't already have headscarves? Somehow I doubt a cloth over the head or even over the chest qualifies a woman as "believing".
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Salaams farida,
Did you read the whole thread and study what was given by the two sides? Or are you just asking and mentioning random things to express your own personal opinion that isn't based from Al Quran?
Maybe those who do the things you mention would be better served to understand the ayat as I have continously explained in here. Make a summary of my posts in your own words on a piece of paper, and the next time you see a woman not wearing it for the right purpose, just give her the piece of paper that you put together; maybe that will help.
Salaams, peace
Salaam IMQ
And where do you read a word about hair in the Qur'an? The Head scarf is a cultural issue, whereas covering your breasts is clearly prescribed in the Holy Book.
However covering ones hair has become such a big issue that often you would see some women covering their head while leaving boobs not properly covered as advised in The Quran. Many believe that covering their head makes them righteous, whilst it's certainly not a sign of piety but rather of conformity.Best regards
farida -
Salaam OPF,
Im not exactly sure what you are saying with all of this, but nevertheless I don't see it adding anything to the discussion of what 2431 says or doesn't say. Either way, I think I have explained my position thoroughly; unless you have something new to add to the discussion.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
I'm not suggesting anything other than that there can be weak conclusions drawn here.
Hardly in this case, because as I said
So there has to be something of a consensus here. Or you'll have a group of believers following their interpretation of 2431 and telling women to wear headscarves over their heads and chests, and another group telling women to pull their scarves over their chests alone. And this is quite an issue in sectarian circles and people do get killed over this trivial rubbish.
Exactly so, but that doesn't change anything.
That's not an issue at all though, it has no logical connection to what needs clarification here. Of course a headscarf is mentioned, what is NOT mentioned is that the headscarf must be on the head. Just because it's called a headscarf doesn't mean it can only be used on the head or MUST be used on the head.
Where is that post? In any case, it's very hard to judge how important this ayat would be in reality because there are too many variables, but considering the quran only dedicates a single verse and even then, weakly implies it (if it even does, which I find it wouldn't) it doesn't really make a case for it.
The verse assumes the women in question already have headscarves, what happens to women who don't already have headscarves? Somehow I doubt a cloth over the head or even over the chest qualifies a woman as "believing".
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Salaams farida,
Or are you just asking and mentioning random things to express your own personal opinion that isn't based from Al Quran?
Salaams, peace
Salaam IMQ
Did you read the whole thread and study what was given by the two sides?
Not really! As this subject is the least interesting to me. I prefer to concentrate on wider issues.
Best regards
farida -
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
That's because men being pervs is the woman's fault! >
We need to hide them, so us men won't be seduced !
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Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
faridaYou are correct that we should not leave other issues and just start pressing on the issue of women's dress code; but the reality is reality and we must face it if we believe to be Muslims then we must submitt to what is being commanded.
However for IQO; when I said we must look into culture and background for why the specific command was ordered and weather is it necessary now? and you replied with "Quranic commands do not change"; I donot agree with your reply.we may have a detailed discussion regarding the issue if time permits.
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Peace,
Ok, I have no lexicon, but I have read many times that sister Samia has explained that khimar in the lexicon is used for many things. Khimar is some kind of cloth that can cover ex. a table, a window, a body, or something else. And Quran says that women shall cover their breast with a cloth(khimar).
So a woman can take a piece of cloth like a big scarves and hang over her shoulder, why wrap it around her head?Maria
Dear Maria
When The word "Khimaar' is used for• 1;woman it EXCLUSIVELY means head cover
2any other thing then it is a cover (not necessarily that of cloth)
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Taajul Aroos says
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From second definition which you are using "Khimaar " can be anycover of anything.The cover of manhole is also a khimaar.Are the women ordered to cover the breasts with
1;Bed covers
2;Windowpanes
3;curtains
4;Iron covers
5;wooden covers
But NOT HEADSCARF (ACCORDING TO YOU) -
If you have bared breasts (either partially or fully) and you pull your headcover down (while its still on your head) to cover those exposed breasts, it is by no means an effective covering for those breasts -- no matter how you want to argue the point.
Do you truly believe that this understanding is the best advice God has to offer on the topic of exposed breasts/chests/crevices/etc/etc ?
Unless, of course you're the Saudi scholar mentioned above!
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Greetings Wakas,
Thanks. handshake
But even safety pins wouldn't help that much. I know from experience that it still is quite awkward if you have any degree of flesh showing that needs covering. The headscarf used to compensate for a blouse that has either a low cut neckline or in some other way exposes too much skin, never stays properly in the ideal place for maximum coverage and you will always end up finding yourself over-exposed.
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peace ILisa, all,
(edited post)
I originally thought if you lowered a head cover to cover your chest (but still covering the head) the result wouldn't be great, i.e. it would still be semi-loose, but after thinking about it, it could be done with one fastener / safety-pin / etc and would probably do. Like a headband for the head cover part (like the male Arabs wear now) and pulling either side of the cloth around the front, overlaping, and one fastener / rope / safety-pin / etc.
And before anyone says anything, I'm not saying there is a head cover or there isn't, I'm simply discussing the possibilities.
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Ilisa
Greetings Wakas,
Thanks.
But even safety pins wouldn't help that much. I know from experience that it still is quite awkward if you have any degree of flesh showing that needs covering. The headscarf used to compensate for a blouse that has either a low cut neckline or in some other way exposes too much skin, never stays properly in the ideal place for maximum coverage and you will always end up finding yourself over-exposed.
Half Mullah is always dangerous.
Dear Ilisa it is understood that we all wear some cloths so did the adresssee of Quran at that time, and over those cloths we are told to expand the head scarf, in order to cover the Bossoms because they were and are the attractive parts for most of the opposite sex. What you are assuming is that breasts are naked and that is not the case.Say to the believing men that they should guard their gaze and cover their private parts. This is purer for them. And Allah is well acquainted with all that they do. And say to the believing women that they should guard their gaze and cover their private parts; that they should not display their ornaments except what appear thereof; that they should draw their head covering over their bosoms and not display their beauty except to their husbands, their fathers, their husbands? fathers, their sons, their husbands? sons, their brothers or their brothers? sons, or their sisters? sons or their women, or the slaves whom their right hands possess, or male servants free of physical needs, or small children who have no sense of the shame of sex; and that they should not strike their feet in order to draw attention to their hidden ornaments (Bossoms). And O you who believe turn you all together towards Allah that you may succeed. (2430-31) "
Now let us see what HAdith says, amazingly you can find a HAdith in support only in Abu Daud
'Aisha said Asthma', daughter of Abu Bakr, entered upon the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) wearing thin clothes. The Apostle of Allah (peace be upon him) turned his attention from her. He said O Asthma', when a woman reaches the age of menstruation, it does not suit her that she displays her parts of the body except this and this, and he pointed to her face and hands.
Even in this Hadith no covering of Hands and Face. Then Abu Dawud said This is a mursal tradition meaning this is a weak Hadith.
the words used by the Qur?an are such that one is inclined towards believing that the Qur?an wants Muslim women to cover their heads when they have to interact with men and the logical reason for this is as said by Learner
The Words "They should spread their head coverings over their bosoms", in my opinion, imply that the piece of cloth used as head coverings should be spread over the bosom while keeping the head covered. If the Qur?an wanted women to cover only their bosoms with a piece of cloth, I think it would then have been more appropriate to give the directive without any reference to the head coverings. It seems that Arab women used to cover their heads with a long piece of cloth let the sides of that cloth hang behind them. What the Qur?an has directed them to do in the referred verse is to cover their bosoms with that part of their head coverings which was left hanging.The Reason I said while replying to IQO that the history and culture are very important for understanding books like Quran.
The reference to the dress of the Arab women is concerned here, the Arab women was the first addressee of the Qur?an, and the Qur?an gave its directives regarding women?s covering keeping her in perspective, it is therefore essential to know what was the dressing of the Arab women, in general. This does not mean that the style of dress worn by the Arab woman is an Islamic standard, but that the coverings of the Arab woman are the perspective in which the Qur?an has given its directive. This covering, in the words "Women (who already had their heads, arms and legs covered) should observe?".So do you understand dear Ilisa.
I don't see any benefit to Allah if the women is dressed modestly, or Men keep their gaze low, offcourse like all other laws it is for the betterment of society, and if the society you live in have some other laws as long as within framework of Quran, you may observe it. For example the Quran here is talking about slaves in this very verse, is slavery existing today? near to Zero the kind of it was at that time, so this word is useless at this time of point, but was very important at that point of time, simialarly we should understand that Quran was addressing to some living people who had a Culture, customs and history which is quite different from know.
I mean to say the main idea for the dress should be from Quran; it should be modest; but the details should be decided by the culture and environment of the place living in. In India many Hindu women cover their Bossoms by a cloth called "Dopata" at the same time using it as head covering.
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Ilisa
Half Mullah is always dangerous.Just because I made an observational comment, based on my previous experience you feel comfortable calling me a 'Half Mullah'?? I thought this was a forum for discussion, not fatwas.
What the Qur?an has directed them to do in the referred verse is to cover their bosoms with that part of their head coverings which was left hanging.
This is one interpretation.
it is therefore essential to know what was the dressing of the Arab women, in general.
This covering, in the words "Women (who already had their heads, arms and legs covered) should observe?".
Interesting for someone who's just called me a 'half mullah' to put a meaning altering phrase in parathases as you have done here for a passage from the Qur'an.
So do you understand dear Ilisa.
Perhaps more than you shall ever know....
In India many Hindu women cover their Bossoms by a cloth called "Dopata" at the same time using it as head covering.
Don't they cover their heads with a cloth that is first wrapped around their bodies instead of the other way around?? That makes a big difference in terms of coverage-ability.
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The qur'an plain and simple doesn't tell anybody to cover his or her head or arms. Many men pretend that it does. Well they are pretenders. There is not such a command in the qur'an. And there is no command that women should wear khumur. It tells to those who wore them to draw them over their breasts.
Those who are fond of inventing, may have as many field days as they please, but they are inventing and attributing things to God of which they presume and on which they elaborate but which are no there.
NO COMMAND TO COVER HEAD NOWHERE INT HE QUR'AN. Peoples suppositions are not binding on anybody.
Salaam
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Just because I made an observational comment, based on my previous experience you feel comfortable calling me a 'Half Mullah'?? I thought this was a forum for discussion, not fatwas.
I did not call you half Mullah! Guilty concious (
Quote
This covering, in the words "Women (who already had their heads, arms and legs covered) should observe?".Interesting for someone who's just called me a 'half mullah' to put a meaning altering phrase in parathases as you have done here for a passage from the Qur'an.
I did not call you Half Mullah!
You can read the translation selected by me above, which does not have any paranthases added, the one you quoted is just an observation according to one's understanding.Don't they cover their heads with a cloth that is first wrapped around their bodies instead of the other way around?? That makes a big difference in terms of coverage-ability.
You are talking about "Sarhi" and I about "Dopata" they are different.
Huruf
NO COMMAND TO COVER HEAD NOWHERE INT HE QUR'AN. Peoples suppositions are not binding on anybody
.It is easy to talk big dear, translate the verse but before that ask some one who knows arabic well, may be Wakas.
or otherwise we will arrive at ground zero what is the meaning of "Khimar"? as IQO is asking since beginning. -
What do you know what I know? Who are you to judge? When I say something with certainty, I say it because I know it to my satisfaction. If you want to hear something else, then go yourself to whoever you please. I say what I have said because I am certain of it. If you are certain of what you say, then that is good enough for you, great, practice it and enjoy it, I wish you all the best. But you see, I don't like speculation and picking hints here and there and then coming up with something invented. So as far as I am concerned your certainties are not convincing, I am sorry to say. If there was a command in the qur'an to cover the head we could never deny it and we would not be dicussing about it. We do not deny there is a command not to eat pork, not to go about unddressed, and not to commit adultery. ?Have you seen anybody deny that? But there is not command to cover the head. Many men would like that there should be such a command and they strive hard to for it. But the Qur'an was revealed many hundreds of years ago and it didn't bring such command. Why it is so important for some people that there should be such thing beats me. However, even realising how much its lack makes some people suffer, the QUR'AN DOES NOT ORDER WOMEN TO COVER THEIR HEAD. And nobody has quoted such a thing, and a few more millions of pages speculating on the history of apparel and fashion won't make appear in the Qur'an such a comand. That people should go to such ridiculous extremes to have their whim on this is part of what makes people feel repelled by anything about the Qur'an and the Truth, because they come thinking of truth and they get an unending shower of superficialities and ridiculous nonsense, which indeed is nto in the Qur'an but the warped minds of those who give their own fantasies on it instead of reflecting and accepting.
So do you want me to go and ask? Why? do you think that this has not been already answered thousands of times by the best "scholars" to most people utter disatisfaction? It did satisfy you? Magnificent. So we are both happy. If there was reincarnation, it would be great. You could again be born a woman and cover your head almost all the time, which is so miraculous.
Salaam
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That's because men being pervs is the woman's fault! >D
We need to hide them, so us men won't be seduced !
Salaam
If that is the case then how come in almost all muslim countries where many women go around covering from head to toe, men are most perverted and stare at any women shamelessly even if she is covered up. They are too hungry for women and, completely oblivious of the commandment to lower your gaze show no respect.
One gets the feelings that they have Xray eyes, undressing the women. All I see is hypocrisy in practice, had I seen respect for women due to ?Hijab? I would have give the idea some consideration, even if its not strictly a commandment.Best regards
farida -
I did not call you half Mullah! Guilty concious (
I did not call you Half Mullah!
Then please enlighten me as to your intent behind writing those words after directly addressing me. And why would I, of all people have a guilty conscious in terms of 'half mullah'? Spare me!
You are talking about "Sarhi" and I about "Dopata" they are different.
Sorry, I'm not from the subcontinent. Here's the wiki link with photos
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dupatta
Okay, I agree, it is big enough to pull over your chest. But HOT to wear!!!!
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And there is no command that women should wear khumur. It tells to those who wore them to draw them over their breasts.
Exactly! No command for women in general to wear khimaar. BUT, the believing women, as you have so elloquently pointed out in bold above, those that wore them are told to SPREAD, or draw if you like, them over their chest area (cleavage, shape), not breasts; because the breasts were not bare to begin with...unlike the barbarian naked circumblating society that you and samia seem to have in mind.
What's your trip anyway? Are you a woman in disguise and have been oppressed by "khimaar" in your home country by someone like the taliban? No one is forcing anyone to accept or wear anything here on this forum. It's just a discussion about the meaning of the ayat. Why are you underwear so uptight? hmm
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Salaams Al-Quran only,
Nice post, but don't expect any response from the arabic specialists here that don't agree with you. You may have spooked them off with this one.
Welcome to the forum though! welcome
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Dear Maria
When The word "Khimaar' is used for• 1;woman it EXCLUSIVELY means head cover
2any other thing then it is a cover (not necessarily that of cloth)
•
Taajul Aroos says
- ( 1 / 2785)
From second definition which you are using "Khimaar " can be anycover of anything.The cover of manhole is also a khimaar.Are the women ordered to cover the breasts with
1;Bed covers
2;Windowpanes
3;curtains
4;Iron covers
5;wooden covers
But NOT HEADSCARF (ACCORDING TO YOU) -
Why do you rant so much? Where is anything remotely from Al Quran that could add to this discussion in this crap that you write? hmm If you don't like this thread....pick another one! and stop brickwall you seem & or do you just want to voodoo us?
What do you know what I know? Who are you to judge? When I say something with certainty, I say it because I know it to my satisfaction. If you want to hear something else, then go yourself to whoever you please. I say what I have said because I am certain of it. If you are certain of what you say, then that is good enough for you, great, practice it and enjoy it, I wish you all the best. But you see, I don't like speculation and picking hints here and there and then coming up with something invented. So as far as I am concerned your certainties are not convincing, I am sorry to say. If there was a command in the qur'an to cover the head we could never deny it and we would not be dicussing about it. We do not deny there is a command not to eat pork, not to go about unddressed, and not to commit adultery. ?Have you seen anybody deny that? But there is not command to cover the head. Many men would like that there should be such a command and they strive hard to for it. But the Qur'an was revealed many hundreds of years ago and it didn't bring such command. Why it is so important for some people that there should be such thing beats me. However, even realising how much its lack makes some people suffer, the QUR'AN DOES NOT ORDER WOMEN TO COVER THEIR HEAD. And nobody has quoted such a thing, and a few more millions of pages speculating on the history of apparel and fashion won't make appear in the Qur'an such a comand. That people should go to such ridiculous extremes to have their whim on this is part of what makes people feel repelled by anything about the Qur'an and the Truth, because they come thinking of truth and they get an unending shower of superficialities and ridiculous nonsense, which indeed is nto in the Qur'an but the warped minds of those who give their own fantasies on it instead of reflecting and accepting.
So do you want me to go and ask? Why? do you think that this has not been already answered thousands of times by the best "scholars" to most people utter disatisfaction? It did satisfy you? Magnificent. So we are both happy. If there was reincarnation, it would be great. You could again be born a woman and cover your head almost all the time, which is so miraculous.
Salaam
