Face cover: God's only flaw?
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Salaams House M.D.,
If using "headscarf" makes 2431 sound ridiculous to you, it is because you are missing KEY words in the ayat.
"bikhumurihinna" let the draw over their chest area WITH THEIR HEADSCARF.
peace
Peace bro,
I am not missing any key words.Women are told to put their KHUMUR on their JUYOOB. How do you cover your chest with a head cover, isn't a hat a 'head-cover'? Is it perfectly okay for someone to cover their chest with a baseball hat ? If The God told you to cover your table with a khimar, are we covering it with a 'head-cover'?!
HEADcover makes that verse illogical.
The word "khimar" means "cover". ANY cover. A piece of cloth covering a table is a "khimar". The word "khamr" ( intoxicant) is derived from it, because it "covers" the mind, and obstructs thinking.
The Quran is simply ordering the women to put a cloth/shawl/or whatever... over their "juyyoub".
The scholars will tell you that "juyyoub" means "bosom". This is not necessarily so. The word "juyyob" actually has a general meaning "opening or orifice". Therefore, the bosom is ONE OF the juyoubs, but not the only one. (When God told Moses to put his hand in his "jayb" and made it appear white...Where did Moses put his hand??
Could it be his armpit??? Hence the armpit is one of the "juyoubs" also.The mistake of scholars is that they take words/phrases in the Quran that have general meanings, and give them specific meanings.
The word "khamr" in the Quran can mean ANY kind of intoxicant. Not just alcoholic beverages, but also drugs , hasheesh,etc.. They all qualify as "hasheesh".
Simple as that, you don't cover a table with a head-cover. You do cover the table with a COVER.
peace David,
I did a little research on this previously, here are some notes
list of occurrence
From Lane
Kha-Miim-Ra = cover/conceal/veil, become changed/altered from a former state/condition, mixed/mingled/incorporated/blended, intoxication/wine/grapes, make-up, any intoxicating thing that clouds/obscures the intellect, come upon secretly/unexpectedly, crowding of people, odour of perfume, women's head cover, man's turban, something fermented/matured?
Lane gives examples of ?the dwelling was hidden by the trees? & ?he concealed his testimony?.
Its primary signification is 'to cover'.
As far as I can tell, to say 'khumur' in 2431 means 'head cover' is an extrapolation. If one takes its core meaning, it simply means 'cover/veil'.
...and let them draw/set/cast (walyadribna) their veils/covers (bikhumurihinna) over (AAala) their breasts/bosom (juyoobihinna)...
Kha-Miim-Ra is in the plural in this verse.
I hope this has helped.
Wakas
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My guess is that two headscarves would be needed for the purpose of the "juyoob", one would leave one of them catch cold. A shawl, on the other hand would be nice for both.
Nobody has answered many questions that I put forward in another post. Since it seems that I don't risk getting answers to my very well thought out questions, I suppose there is no harm in putting forth another one, which may shed some light on headscarves
Did women wear bras at the time when the Truthful Qur'an was revealed or wore nothing which had the same function?
Salaam
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Did women wear bras at the time when the Truthful Qur'an was revealed or wore nothing which had the same function?
Salaam
They wore nothing on their chest. This is what they used to wear (most probably)
Lisaanul 3arab (and other dictionaries) under "RahT"
.Translation And the "rahT" is a "piece of" leather measuring between the knee and the navel, wore by women who menustrated (adults). In pre-islamic era, "men" used to circumbulate naked, and women in "rahTs". Ibn Sayyedihi says The rahT is slit leather from Taif, worn by young boys and adult women. "According to" Ibnul A3raabi The rahT is a "piece of" leather slit in strings measuring (in width) four fingerwidth or a palm width, worn by little girls before menustration and also after menustrating.
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So your intelligent suggestion is that the believing women before ayat 2431 was revealed wore "rahT" only and had their bare breasts out? So after this ayat was revealed, they went and got their "table cloths, curtains, bedspreads or whatever" and covered their breasts? wow rotfl nope
Im proud to be in the minority opposition to this type of supposedly "Quranic" new age thinking, while still being able to follow Al Quran only. yay
As Salaamu Alaikum, angel
They wore nothing on their chest. This is what they used to wear (most probably)
Lisaanul 3arab (and other dictionaries) under "RahT"
.Translation And the "rahT" is a "piece of" leather measuring between the knee and the navel, wore by women who menustrated (adults). In pre-islamic era, "men" used to circumbulate naked, and women in "rahTs". Ibn Sayyedihi says The rahT is slit leather from Taif, worn by young boys and adult women. "According to" Ibnul A3raabi The rahT is a "piece of" leather slit in strings measuring (in width) four fingerwidth or a palm width, worn by little girls before menustration and also after menustrating.
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I don't understand the logical foundations that people use to say there is a quranic order to actually cover the head.
2431 - And say to the believing women that they cast down their looks and guard their private parts and do not display their ornaments except what appears thereof, and let them wear their head-coverings over their bosoms
The order is to wrap the head covering over the chest, not an order to wrap it over the head. If it asked you to wrap your towels around your heads, that would not be an order to be in a constant state of showering. So why is it interpreted the other way here?
Have a headscarf => Cover your chest with it
Dont have a headscarf => Do nothing.So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
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Salaams House M.D.,
Peace bro,
I am not missing any key words.Women are told to put their KHUMUR on their JUYOOB. How do you cover your chest with a head cover, isn't a hat a 'head-cover'? Is it perfectly okay for someone to cover their chest with a baseball hat ? If The God told you to cover your table with a khimar, are we covering it with a 'head-cover'?!
HEADcover makes that verse illogical.
Headscarves are spreadable. I don't think they had baseball hats back then. I think they used cloth to make scarves with. "IF's" are not the question here, but rather WHAT did Allah say. There are other words for table cloths which I will show below.
Quote from Pazuzu on November 05, 2006, 032908 PM
The word "khimar" means "cover". ANY cover. A piece of cloth covering a table is a "khimar". The word "khamr" ( intoxicant) is derived from it, because it "covers" the mind, and obstructs thinking.The Quran is simply ordering the women to put a cloth/shawl/or whatever... over their "juyyoub".
The scholars will tell you that "juyyoub" means "bosom". This is not necessarily so. The word "juyyob" actually has a general meaning "opening or orifice". Therefore, the bosom is ONE OF the juyoubs, but not the only one. (When God told Moses to put his hand in his "jayb" and made it appear white...Where did Moses put his hand??
Could it be his armpit??? Hence the armpit is one of the "juyoubs" also.
The mistake of scholars is that they take words/phrases in the Quran that have general meanings, and give them specific meanings.The word "khamr" in the Quran can mean ANY kind of intoxicant. Not just alcoholic beverages, but also drugs , hasheesh,etc.. They all qualify as "hasheesh".
From a previous discussion
From Samia on Reply #92 on June 13, 2007, 035002 AM
I agree with you that khamara is to cover and the the different nouns derived from it are used to cover different things khamr conceal reasoning; khumra (used in hadith literature) a small rug ; khumra (the word is still used in the Sudan) old home made perfume used to conceal bad body smell (something like a deodorant); khimaar (in classical literature) scarf to conceal the face.Khamr and khumra (perfume) could also be derived from the verb "khaamara", form III, which means mix up (whether confused or literally mix up)
God did not ask them to remove it from the face, because this was vital for them, but ordered women to stretch further down to cover the bosom. If they want to keep the face covered , it is up to them.
It's interesting that,in the entry of khimaar, lisanul3arab says and it's said that is the "cloth" to cover a woman's hair. So, lisanul 3arab could not find, even a line of poetry, to confirm that. However, it cited a hadith narrated by um Salmaa on ablution, speaking of the prophet that he used to "rub on his sandals and khimaar".
From Arnold Yasin on Reply #93 on June 13, 2007, 054037 AM
Peace Samia,Thanks for that very clarifying explanation. Also, I have researched Jayb, but till now I have only indentified it as bosom, while Dr. Mohammed Shahroor claims it is every type of opening
" <JAYB> in Arabic is used for any opening with TWO sides to it. Thus for the body of a woman, the <Jayb> would be the area of the breasts, the area under the arms, the vagina area <Farj> as well as the hands, feet, nose, mouth and
ears. It is incorrect to define <Jayb> as merely the breasts of a woman since that will lead to a wrong understanding of the minimum dress-code requirements (i.e the woman can cover her breasts and walk around naked revealing everything else)."From Samia on Reply #94 on June 13, 2007, 064916 AM
Salaam ArnoldYes I am aware of Shahrour's explanation of "jayb". The problem is that we have the plural, but not the singular. Sha7ruur derived his meaning from the root jeem waw baa to dig a hole. The problem is we do not have a word for "hole" that's remotely linked to jayb or juyuub. There is, hoowever, jawba private parts, but the plural is juwab, so this is out. There is a more interesting one jawb, which is a vest worn by women, (maybe like a bra, especially if she is nursing). Although lisaanul 3arab does not give the plural for this word, but it would look like "juyuub", anologically to similar words.
Another root is jeem yaa baa, from which is derived the word jayb/juyuub the opening of a shirt/garment.
Personally I will go for juyuub women vest, because first it is specific to women, and secondly, it requires more covering.
From Samia on Reply #130 on June 16, 2007, 013924 AM
I see that the verb "dharaba" is getting us in trouble again in this verse!! The argument, as I understand, is whether to cast the scarf on the bosoms only (scarf then means cover) or keep it on the head And "hold on place/sew it" on th bosom! From all the meanings of dharaba in dictionaries and general usage, I never heard of it meaning "to sew" nor "to hold on place".Daharaba fil ardh travel (so it is not hold on place; just the opposite)
dharaba example compared two things (again, opposite of hold on place)
dharaba a tent spread it, unfold it (again, opposite of hold on place).The usage of this very verb in the context of our verse clearly means spread your "scarf, cover..whatever" on your bosoms. To do this, one has to move it from the head (if it is even there) and put it on the bosom. The bosom has the priority over the head in being covered.
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
Simple as that, you don't cover a table with a head-cover. You do cover the table with a COVER.
From ImamQuranOnly on Reply #136 on June 16, 2007, 111647 AM
If I say "curtain", just because it covers windows does not mean that it is not a specific cover for a specific function. A "curtain" is not a "tablecloth". Nor is a "khimaar" a tablecloth, etc. It is specifically a "headscarf/covering".A tablecloth in arabic can be said as "biz (ghiTa) as sufrat" or "mifrash". A curtain in arabic can be said as "sattar" or "hijjab". A shirt in as "qameeS" or "qumSaan". A jacket as "Jubbat" or "Sudayree". A shawl as "shaalat" or "sheelaan". A "cover" or "covering" as a subject...as "ghiTaa' " or "Himaayat" or " 'illat" or "Hujjat", and finally a "cloth" as "JuuKh" or "qumaash" or "asqmishat" being plural for also a tablecloth, or "beezas sufrat" or "mifrash".
And finally on "khimaar" and "jayb" again
From ImamQuranOnly on Reply #136 on June 16, 2007, 111647 AM
You can not make "khimaar" into a vague noun to mean any covering because you want to redefine the word using its root. Al Quran clearly didn't use it as a noun anywhere else, because the meaning was not vague or misleading to the believing women and men. The noun is possessive, and therefore the women would have to know EXACTLY what is being said, or they may would have requested what type of covering? Or it would not have been clear as to how to exactly cover the cleavage. Maybe they would have asked about the "undistinguised cover" as Moses' people asked about the cow. It is a SPECIFIC noun meaning HEADSCARF/HEADCOVER. Allah was very specific and detailed about what He wanted used to spread over the woman's cleavage.Also women's breast are known as "Saduur", not "jayb", which indicates clearly the chest area or "cleavage" when discussed about a woman.
YOU CAN NOT IN ANYWAY DISREGARD "HEADSCARF/COVER" AS A MEANING OF "KHIMAAR". SO TO USE IT CAN NOT BE FORBIDDEN, WHILE IF IT IS "NOT" WORN, CAN BE DISOBEDIENCE! I HOPE YOU CAN SEE THIS LOGIC AND THE POSITION IT PUTS YOU AND PEOPLE WHO PROMOTE TO WRONG UNDERSTANDING IN BY INSTRUCTING AGAINST WHAT ALLAH HAS COMMANDED. ALTHOUGH I KNOW I AM NOT WRONG ON THIS ISSUE, IF I AM, THERE IS NO HARM FOR WOMEN TO WEAR KHIMAAR, SINCE IT CAN MEAN HEADSCARF/COVER, EVEN IF AS YOU CONTEND THAT IT CAN ALSO MEAN MORE THAN THAT. BUT IF YOU ARE WRONG AND ALLAH CLEARLY INTENDS FOR BELIEVING WOMEN TO WEAR IT, THEN YOU INSTRUCT THEM THAT THIS IS NOT ALLAH'S COMMAND, THAT WOULD BE A SIN. ( I am not intending to shout here, just wanted to point out what I think is extremely important.)
I hope this opens some more doors of reason to you and those who still refuse to acknowledge what is being said.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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My guess is that two headscarves would be needed for the purpose of the "juyoob", one would leave one of them catch cold. A shawl, on the other hand would be nice for both.
I haven't seen a comment this ridiculous in at least 2 days! wow
Nobody has answered many questions that I put forward in another post. Since it seems that I don't risk getting answers to my very well thought out questions, I suppose there is no harm in putting forth another one, which may shed some light on headscarves
Maybe because, just as your point above, no one thought it was well thought out, but rather thought it was ridiculous! yes
Did women wear bras at the time when the Truthful Qur'an was revealed or wore nothing which had the same function?
Salaam
Surely you believe as Samia that they were 100% barbarians that wore nothing but leather strips & , even though they were in the presence of the people of previous scriptures and others that were civilized! hmm
You people amaze me at the lenghts you go to in order to try and make Al Quran suit your needs. wow
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Peace all,
I will first point out that I'm not here for some endless discussion of who is right or wrong.
I will take sis samias example as well could have happen theory. I have also read before about the dress of women before Islam, and that the fashion was to leave the breast uncovered. So why so surprised about this?
And I guess we all have seen nature people who are nude or half nude and only cover for special weather conditions, like sand storms or extreme cold during night etc.
We are all born nude, and we cover ourselves for many reasons. But I have difficult to find a reason to why God will hide all women. In Quran it says that the best garment is the garment of righteouses so, why then press this about headcovers so hard?
Peace
Maria -
Peace all,
I will first point out that I'm not here for some endless discussion of who is right or wrong.
I will take sis samias example as well could have happen theory. I have also read before about the dress of women before Islam, and that the fashion was to leave the breast uncovered. So why so surprised about this?
And I guess we all have seen nature people who are nude or half nude and only cover for special weather conditions, like sand storms or extreme cold during night etc.
We are all born nude, and we cover ourselves for many reasons. But I have difficult to find a reason to why God will hide all women. In Quran it says that the best garment is the garment of righteouses so, why then press this about headcovers so hard?
Peace
MariaIt's a single verse in the whole quran, hardly a pressed issue compared to most commandments. There is only one reason for the hard pressing, because traditionalists want to maintain the status quo. In this case, the burden of proof is on us who want change. This verse is hardly a command to "hide all women", it's a command to all believing women to cover their chests.
So there can be no doubt that Allah says to women to cover their chest area with their headscarves. The only question can be is if that means that they should (1) continue to cover their heads with their headscarf and also use it to cover their chest area by spreading it over such...(2) or do they no longer use the headscarf to cover the head, but use it to cover their chest area instead.
For me personally, and everyone else is entitled to their own opinion; but for me personally, I can only see number 1 as making sense because if the khimar no longer also covers the head, then it can not be a khimar and should have been given another name. Or it would have made more sense to just use a verb to say cover your chest, and not to say cover your chest "with your headscarf". By adding in "with your headscarf", using reason and logic this means that the headscarf also becomes obligatory to have in order to fulfill the command as told, IMHO.
Not at all. It can preserve its name but have a different purpose. For instance, if it was a scarf, which is also used for the head, then it wouldn't stop being a scarf if wrapped around the chest.
I see it as (2) because as logically accurate as the verse gets, it is an ORDER for the believing women to TAKE their headscarf and USE IT TO COVER their chests. If a headscarf woman read that verse, how else could she comply with the commandment but by doing an action, the action being to take the headscarf and use it to cover her chest?
You cannot interpret it as (1) because that is a logical fallacy, the scarf being a headscarf in no way changes the message to TAKE the scarf and USE IT TO COVER the chest, because the actions are already defined. In addition, in no way does the verse imply that the head MUST be covered, but on the other hand, it does state clearly that the chest MUST be covered.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
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It's a single verse in the whole quran, hardly a pressed issue compared to most commandments.
Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
farida -
I see it as (2) because as logically accurate as the verse gets, it is an ORDER for the believing women to TAKE their headscarf and USE IT TO COVER their chests. If a headscarf woman read that verse, how else could she comply with the commandment but by doing an action, the action being to take the headscarf and use it to cover her chest?
You cannot interpret it as (1) because that is a logical fallacy, the scarf being a headscarf in no way changes the message to TAKE the scarf and USE IT TO COVER the chest, because the actions are already defined. In addition, in no way does the verse imply that the head MUST be covered, but on the other hand, it does state clearly that the chest MUST be covered.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
Maybe you missed this part
From Samia on Reply #130 on June 16, 2007, 013924 AM
I see that the verb "dharaba" is getting us in trouble again in this verse!! The argument, as I understand, is whether to cast the scarf on the bosoms only (scarf then means cover) or keep it on the head And "hold on place/sew it" on th bosom! From all the meanings of dharaba in dictionaries and general usage, I never heard of it meaning "to sew" nor "to hold on place".Daharaba fil ardh travel (so it is not hold on place; just the opposite)
dharaba example compared two things (again, opposite of hold on place)
dharaba a tent spread it, unfold it (again, opposite of hold on place).The usage of this very verb in the context of our verse clearly means spread your "scarf, cover..whatever" on your bosoms. To do this, one has to move it from the head (if it is even there) and put it on the bosom. The bosom has the priority over the head in being covered.
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
Anyway, might we note that in isolated situations where people have no access to other cultures (such as the Sentinelese), things are very different and breasts aren't treated as sexual objects.
And maybe you missed this part
Surely you believe as Samia that they were 100% barbarians that wore nothing but leather strips & , even though they were in the presence of the people of previous scriptures and others that were civilized! hmm
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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Maybe you missed this part
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
And maybe you missed this part
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salaam
I repeat there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeedI just can not understand why some men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
farida -
Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
faridaNor is this the only thread on this HUGE LARGE forum. To suggest that is ignoring thousands of other threads and posts. The whole of Quran is up for discussion by everyone here...not just men's issues for men and women issues for women.
Maybe you missed this point previously
Salaams,
Women should adopt the style of dress that Allah tells them to, if they have faith in following the guidance that Allah gives. If so, they would prefer what Allah gives over what they desire themselves. So they would follow it to the best of their understanding at any given time. In the Jewish and Christian scriptures as well as the muslim scriptures, there has always been something to describe the dress code of women to distinguish the believing women from the women population in general. I don't know why Allah likes to single out how women dress, I just recognize that He does. There are no ayaat in Al Quran, for whatever reason that Allah choose, that specify that mean should wear jilbab or khimar, or similiar. Allahu Alim.
Human beings, including believers fail to follow a lot of the guidance that Allah gives to us. Whatever one considers the dress code from Allah in Al Quran, no one can say that not adhering to it will cause one to go to Hellfire. One can only say that not adhering to it is disobedience, and Allah forgives a lot of disobedience. We are all disobedient in some way. So advising one of what Allah says to do is only so that someone will know, then it is up to them to obey or not; not for the one giving the message to condemn them to hellfire. Allah is the One who weighs on the Day of Judgement, and who determines what is forgiven or not forgiven.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Best regards,
IQA -
Salaam,
And I repeat, read my post above and maybe stop acting like you determine who gets to discuss what from Al Quran! A word to the wise; it is better to stop trying to understand people and continue to try to understand Al Quran.
Best regards,
IQOSalaam
I repeat there are so many verses of Qur?an which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeedI just can not understand why some men think it?s their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to women?s issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
farida -
Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.
A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........
Does the madness have any limits ???
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
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Maybe you missed this part
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
And maybe you missed this part
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
This is a big thread and yes I did miss those. But what you quoted from Samia simply states what I said
The usage of this very verb in the context of our verse clearly means spread your "scarf, cover..whatever" on your bosoms. To do this, one has to move it from the head (if it is even there) and put it on the bosom. The bosom has the priority over the head in being covered.
Then
So SOMETHING that was ALREADY there is told to use to SPREAD over the chest area. Spread means to keep where it is and cover additional area in this sense.
That's true provided it means spread and spread alone. That still doesn't change that any such command to wear the headscarf in this verse is weak because it uses passive language - in other verses of the quran there is a CLEAR command to do this or that.
And who said that Allah revealed the ayats about women's dress because of sexual gratification/repression/excitement or anything of that nature? Surely it is not mentioned in those ayaat that this is the reason for the commandment!
I agree partly but breasts are sexually arousing and hence part of what needs to be covered and if you doubt that you have to be either Sentinelese or in a loony bin / nudist camp. Of course women must have covered up, leather strips or otherwise because that's what is depicted everywhere. We shouldn't even have to look at history to know so.
My whole point is, that there is no clear command (clear as in using active language) to take the covering and wrap it over the head. And in a quran which claims to be clear and fully detailed, such a weak conclusion just will not hold. Are there any other commands in the quran that are essential to follow but only have one verse to them?
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Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.
A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........
Does the madness have any limits ???
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
Now that's sad '( and down right funny rotfl all at the same time! ???
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Thought I'd share this with you, it made my blood boil.
A friend told me today she'd been reading an article by a well known Saudi Scholar. Of course he already supports the traditional Saudi ideas of completely covering the face AND EYES completely with a veil and that the abaya should be worn from the head in case (shock horror!) an outline of a shoulder may be seen. He now believes that gloves are not enough and the woman should have a button on the sleeve of the abaya to close when not using the hands so the form of the fingers in the gloves can not be seen! .........
Does the madness have any limits ???
brickwall brickwall brickwall brickwall
Great news for the camping industry ;D
Salaam OPF
You took the words out of my mouth, there are so many verses of Quran which end on warning of grievous punishment, painful doom, painful torment., tremendous trial, and in the Hereafter, an awful doom etc. whereas Surah 2432 ends on this note And repent to God, all of you believers, that you may succeed
I just can not understand why most men think its their business to debate about the Quranic order for women to cover their head, except to control women. Are all commandments regarding men already observed that now they need to turn their attention to womens issues?
The covering of the head is not the beginning nor is it the end nor is it an open sin and men would certainly not be questioned about it as none can carry the load of another.
Best regards
faridaYou also have to keep in mind that in 2434, God emphasises yet again that quranic commands are clear. I really can't imagine that such a significant command (the headscarf is arguably the most visible thing about 'islam' today) would only have one verse and be vaguely implied even then, it makes little sense.
As for the bold, you have to note that whatever is written between 2427 and 2432 is incumbent on all believers, men or women so it is every bit as men's business as it is women's, just as women have the right not to be gawked at by men (2430), men have the right to tell women to cover up in 2431.
It's definitely not the beginning or the end but it's a visible mark and has to be treated with a bit of caution. Also, applying the same logic used to deduce that the usage of headscarf MUST mean that women are told to cover up results in all sorts of ridiculous notions.
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That's true provided it means spread and spread alone. That still doesn't change that any such command to wear the headscarf in this verse is weak because it uses passive language - in other verses of the quran there is a CLEAR command to do this or that.
I agree partly but breasts are sexually arousing and hence part of what needs to be covered and if you doubt that you have to be either Sentinelese or in a loony bin / nudist camp. Of course women must have covered up, leather strips or otherwise because that's what is depicted everywhere. We shouldn't even have to look at history to know so.
My whole point is, that there is no clear command (clear as in using active language) to take the covering and wrap it over the head. And in a quran which claims to be clear and fully detailed, such a weak conclusion just will not hold. Are there any other commands in the quran that are essential to follow but only have one verse to them?
If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?
I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.
The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.
A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.
You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
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If it doesn't just mean SPREAD, then what else are you suggesting that it is saying?
I already stated that the command can be looked at in two different ways, and I gave my opinion as to why I understand it the way that I do. Everyone else is entitled to their, just remember the warning I gave also.
The ayat also speaks about the chest area or cleavage, not the breasts; those were already supposed to be covered by jilbaab.
A weak conclusion is the one that there is no mention of a headscarf in Al Quran.
You can read one of my recent posts to farida here about how essential it is to follow this ayat.
As Salaamu Alaikum, peace
Salaam IMQ
And where do you read a word about hair in the Qur'an? The Head scarf is a cultural issue, whereas covering your breasts is clearly prescribed in the Holy Book.
However covering ones hair has become such a big issue that often you would see some women covering their head while leaving boobs not properly covered as advised in The Quran. Many believe that covering their head makes them righteous, whilst it's certainly not a sign of piety but rather of conformity.Best regards
farida