Quran inheritance mistake
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There is a problem in Quran's verses 411-12. 411-12 specify the rules of inheritance in the absence of a will. The contradiction is that when a man dies leaving three daughters, one mother, one father and one wife, the sum of shares that Quran gives exceed 1 and hence not enough wealth would exist to carry out Quran`s command. I will first explain this contradiction and then discuss 4 (proposed) Muslim solutions to the problem. Before responding to this post, please read all of my post because it is probable that I already discuss the solution that you have in mind. I will show that all the proposed solutions are not really solutions but possible ways to "correct" Quran?s mistake. I sincerely hope that you can prove me wrong and restore my faith.
Let us look at the verses using Quran A Reformist Translation.
411 God directs you regarding the
inheritance of your children, "To the
male shall be as that given to two
females. If they are only females and
more than two, then they will have two
thirds of what is inherited. If there is
only one female, then she will have one half,
and to his parents each one of them
one sixth of what is inherited if he has
children. If he has no children and his
parents are the heirs, then to his mother
is one third; if he has siblings then to his
mother is one sixth. All after a will is
carried through or a debt. Your parents
and your children, you do not know
which is closer to you in benefit, a
directive from God, God is
Knowledgeable, Wise."*412 For you is half of what your wives leave
behind if they have no children; but if
they have a child then to you is one
quarter of what they leave behind. All
after a will is carried through or a debt.
To them is one quarter of what you leave
behind if you have no child; but if you
have a child then to them is one eighth of
what you leave behind. All after a will is
carried through or a debt. If a man or a
woman has no one, but has a brother or
sister, then to each one of them is one
sixth, but if they are more than this then
they are to share in one third. All after a
will is carried through or a debt, which
does not cause harm. A directive from
God, and God is Knowledgeable,
Compassionate.*Now if a man dies leaving three daughters, one mother, one father and one wife, the shares are as follows. Three daughters should get 2/3 of the inheritance in accordance with, ?If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two
thirds of what is inherited?. Since the man has children, both the mother and father get 1/6 in accordance with, ? and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children.? And according to 412, the wife should get 1/8 of the inheritance in accordance with, ? if you have a child then to them is one eighth of
what you leave behind.? If we add these shares up, we get 1.125 instead of 1 2/3 + 1/6+1/6+1/8=1.125?Solution? 1 Edip Yuksel
In his endnote on these verses, Edip Yuksel sustains that we should compare the fractions with each other under a common denominator and find new fractions to divide the inheritance by neglecting the denominator. Let us see how this works for our case. The fractions are 2/3, 1/6, 1/6, 1/8. When we equalize the denominator(for example when we make 24 denominator for each) we get 16/24, 4/24, 4/24, 3/24.
Yuksel suggest that we then neglect the denominator and solve for X in 16X + 4X + 4X + 3X= Total Inheritance. If inheritance is 27 golds, for example, then three daughters would get 16 golds, mother would get 4 golds, father would get 4 golds, and wife would get 3 golds. New shares become 16/27 for three daughters, 4/27 for the father, 4/27 for the mother and 3/27 for the wife.I want to draw your attention to the fact that the way Quran talks about the shares does not allow Yuksel`s method. Quran does not say, ? three daughters should get 2/3, parents should each get 1/6 and wife should get 1/8.? Neither does Quran say, ? the shares for three daughters are 2/3, shares for each parent are 1/6, share for the wife 1/8.? Quran is saying that three daughters should get 2/3 of the inheritance, etc. In other words, Quran has fixed the shares from the whole inheritance. To give an example In Edip Yuksel?s solution, three daughters are getting 16/27. Well, 16/27 of the inheritance is not 2/3 of the inheritance. If there were 27 golds, the daughters should have gotten 18 golds(2/3 of the inheritance). Yuksel gives them 16 golds. Well, if the daughters go to the court for their 2 golds, they have a solid ground( ?we were promised 2/3 of the 18 golds?). The judge would say that it is not their fault that the author of the Quran made a mistake.
Now that we established that Quran's language does not allow Yuksel?s method, let us still evalute Edip Yuksel?s reasons for his method(please see the endnote in the Reformist Translation). I want to stress that this part is not necessary for my argument since I have already established that given the language Quran uses Yuksel?s solution does not have a Quranic ground. Let me still carry on with his argument however. He argues that if we do not use this method, we cannot distribute the whole inheritance in most cases. Now, Yuksel bases his assertion on the fact that Quran wants us to distribute the whole inheritance without any remainders. Well, Quran never commands that the whole inheritance should be distributed( in fact, if you look at 4176, you can see that Quran welcomes the remainder in the case where there is only one sister to inherit the wealth). Leaving this aside, the problem is not that we have remainders but rather that we have an excess. That is, the fractions add up to more than one.
?Solution? 2 Shabir Ally and Walad
Shabir Ally argues that the whole problem stems from translating the Arabic word 'walad' wrongly (http//islam.thetruecall.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=245). 'Walad' should be translated, Shabir Ally argues, as ?one child?. Let us see how this argument works. Ally proposes that the verses should be translated as follows.
411 God advises you regarding the inheritance of your children "To the male the share of two females. If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two thirds of the inheritance. And if there is only one female, then she will have one half, and to his parents each one of them one sixth of the inheritance if he has one child(walad). If he has not any child and his parents are the heirs, then to his mother is one third; if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth. All after a will is carried through or a debt. Your parents and your children, you do not know which is closer to you in benefit, a directive from God, God is Knowledgeable, Wise.
412 And for you is half of what your wives leave behind if they have no child; but if they have one child (walad)then to you is one quarter of the inheritance. All after a will is carried through or a debt. And to them is one quarter of what you leave behind if you have no child; but if you have one child(walad) then to them is one eighth of what you leave behind. All after a will is carried through or a debt. And if a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or sister, then to each one of them is one sixth, but if they are more than this then they are to share in one third. All after a will is carried through or a debt, which does not cause harm. A directive from God, and God is Knowledgeable, Compassionate.
Shabir Ally?s claim is as follows waladun is one child in other words, mother, father and wives get certain shares if there is only one child. In our problematic case, there are 3 daughters and hence more than one child. Therefore, mother, father and wife should not get any shares. Only 3 daughters get 2/3 and that is all. The rest remains undistributed.Hence no problem of shares exceeding 1.
Well, the only way I can respond to this claim is to say that absolutely no English translation has rendered waladun as
one child. Some have said ?a child.? But ? a child? does not always mean ?one child.? When I say to you, ? If you have a child, then you know what responsibility means,? I am obviously not saying that you know what responsibility means if you have only 1 child and not more. Look at the following Quran translations to see that none of them uses the expressionone childFree Minds, The Reformist, Yusuf Ali, Pickthall, Muhammed and Samira Ahmad, Rashad Khalifa etc.Solution 3 says that three daughters get their share from whatever is left after others get their shares. Quran never says that parents and spouses get their shares first and three daughters get their shares from whatever is left after mother, father and wife get their shares. Quran says that three daughters get 2/3 of the whole inheritance.
Solution 4 is in Submission.org and it is even weaker than solution 3( http//www.submission.org/answering-Islam.htm#ss) They claim that 2/3 is not the share of only 3 daughters but 3 daughters plus the wife. They quote Khalifa?s translation of 411 ?GOD decrees a will for the benefit of your children; the male gets twice the share of the female. If the inheritors are only women, more than two, they get two-thirds of what is bequeathed......? Let me quote them ?According to the Quran, 411, the wife and the daughters (who are the primary inheritor of a man) will get 2/3 of his estate and the parents will get 1/3 and this adds up to a perfect ONE. 412 details that the wife will get 1/8 of the estate but this is not a separate portion of the total of 2/3 that all the females will inherit from the man's estate in case a man dies leaving behind more than two female inheritors. There is no contradiction here and the numbers do add PERFECTLY.?
First of all, from where do they get that idea that wife( and curiously not the mother who is also a female) is included in the 2/3 share that is assigned to the daughters? Let us look at the literal translation of the verse. It says, "God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children To the male shall be as that given to two females. If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two thirds of what is inherited. And if there is only one female, then she will have one half....."
All this part deals with the inheritance of children and nothing else. Notice that in the beginning it says "God directs you regarding the inheritance of your children" When this part finishes, the verse starts talking about the inheritance of parents. 2/3 is clearly the share of daughters when they are more than two. If Submission.org?s understanding was correct and "females" in the beginning of the second sentence referred not just to daughters but to all females, if there was just one female inheritor she would have to get 1/2. But then it would not make sense to specify the shares of wives and mothers who are obviously females getting different shares than 1/2.
If I tell you, " I am making a recommendation to you about the candidates to the job. If females and more than two....." you would immediately know that the second sentence refers to the female candidates. Similarly when Quran says " God advises you about your children that the share of a male is twice the share of two females. If females and more than two......" everyone knows that the second sentence refers to children when they are female and more than two. Let me repeat the sentence continues," if only one female, then to her one half." Clearly, this sentence is also about children.
If Submission.org was right, then it would mean that if there is only female inheritor, she would get one half. That does not make sense at all because shares of the mother and women(who are obviously females) are different than 1/2Conclusion All attempts to find a solution fail. Contradiction remains.
Please either show that my reasoning is wrong or the translation of verses is wrong or propose another solution with a Quranic ground.
Thank you -
Now if a man dies leaving three daughters, one mother, one father and one wife, the shares are as follows. Three daughters should get 2/3 of the inheritance in accordance with, ?If they are only females and more than two, then they will have two
thirds of what is inherited?. Since the man has children, both the mother and father get 1/6 in accordance with, ? and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children.? And according to 412, the wife should get 1/8 of the inheritance in accordance with, ? if you have a child then to them is one eighth of
what you leave behind.? If we add these shares up, we get 1.125 instead of 1 2/3 + 1/6+1/6+1/8=1.125Quran is saying that three daughters should get 2/3 of the inheritance, etc. In other words, Quran has fixed the shares from the whole inheritance.
Conclusion All attempts to find a solution fail. Contradiction remains.
Please either show that my reasoning is wrong or the translation of verses is wrong or propose another solution with a Quranic ground.
Thank youOne of these baby algebra and supposed contradictions pops every other month. lol
In verse 411 2/3 or ? only apply in cases when there are no sons (i.e. if # of females = > 2 they get 2/3; if one she gets 1/2).
Equation is set equal to 1 in ALL CASES for it can never be greater than the whole.
Let x = unit of distribution ordained by God in this particular case, thus equation becomes?
1/8x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 2/3x = 1
3/24x + 4/24x + 4/24x + 16/24x = 1
27/24x = 1
x = 24/27Daughters get 2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 divided equally amongst the 3 of them
Wife gets 1/8 * 24/27 = 3/27
Father gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27
Mother gets 1/6 * 24/27 = 4/27Math check 16/27 + 3/27 + 4/27 + 4/27 = 27/27 = 1 (i.e. the whole)
Another similar example A woman dies leaving husband, mother, father, and daughter.
411 says ? husband gets ?, mother 1/6, father 1/6, and only daughter gets ? thus the na?ve would again see a contradiction adding greater than 1.
? + 1/6 + 1/6 + ? = 13/12 > 1
Proper way is to let variable x = unit of distribution ordained by God for this case...
1/4x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 1/2x = 1
13/12x = 1
x = 12/13Daughter gets 1/2 * 12/13 = 6/13
Husband gets 1/4 * 12/13 = 3/13
Father gets 1/6 * 12/13 = 2/13
Mother gets 1/6 * 12/13 = 2/13Math check 6/13 + 3/13 + 2/13 + 2/13 = 1 (i.e. the whole)
?Solution? 1 Edip Yuksel had it correct and it's literally "so for them (F) two thirds what he left,"
peace
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Salaam Nun
Where did you get this from?
In verse 411 2/3 or ? only apply in cases when there are no sons
The whole verse (411) speaks of "children" males and females In case there is one , two or more females AMONG the children. No verse is set if there were only males or females, because that is too obvious divide equally.
To Onur
If they are just females, the 2/3 does not apply. They get all the remainder. Verse 411 speaks of the case when only children are left. You will have a problem applying it if you have two females and a male AND anymore heir, because these three will consume the whole inheritence.
The correct calculation is to give the parents and the wife their shares, then the three girls will have the remainder divided by them in equal shares.
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Salaam Nun
Where did you get this from?The whole verse (411) speaks of "children" males and females In case there is one , two or more females AMONG the children. No verse is set if there were only males or females, because that is too obvious divide equally.
Salaam Samia, here we go again... ;D
Never mind that part, it's late and I haven't slept all night.
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Dear Nun de plume,
As you know, I already anticipated your solution. You say `it is literally 2/3 the inheritance'
Well, is 16/27 the inheritance equal to 2/3 the inheritance? Or did you just correct Quran's mistake with algebra setting the whole equation to 1 and ignoring the denominator?If the Quran had used the following language then your solution would be satisfactory
" For every 2/3 share of three daughters, parents each get 1/6 and wife gets 1/8 " Or if the Quran had said," The shares for distribution are 2/3 for three daughters , 1/6 each parent and 1/8 for the wife" your solution would be OK too.
But Quran is saying 2/3 what he leaves(that is the total inheritance), 1/6 from what he leaves(the total inheritance), etc
In other words, Quran has fixed the shares from the total inheritance. Whereas, you just compare the shares with each other. An interesting and pragmatic solution but unfortunately it does not save the Quran.
Unless you can show me that 2/3 the inheritance is not equal to 2/3 of the inheritance. -
Dearest Onur,
But Quran is saying 2/3 what he leaves(that is the total inheritance), 1/6 from what he leaves(the total inheritance), etc
No, (that is the total inheritance) are your words and assumptions.
Qur?an says 2/3 WHAT HE LEFT not 2/3 OF THE TOTAL INHERITANCE.
YOU say girls get 2/3 OF inheritance; in English OF means times; thus?
Girls get 2/3 * inheritanceQur?an says girls get 2/3 WHAT he left which means in proportion to the whole as compared to all the other inheritors; this unit which we?ll call x ordained by God for this particular case needs to be first calculated, thus?
1/4x + 1/6x + 1/6x + 1/2x = 1 (i.e. the whole)
x = 24/27411 ..."so for them (F) two thirds what he left,"
2/3 * 24/27 = 16/27 divided equally amongst the 3 of them
Another example to clarify Only 3 daughters
YOU say girls get 2/3 OF the total inheritance meaning
Girls get 2/3 * inheritance = 2/3
Remaining 1/3 goes to unknown?Qur?an says girls get 2/3 WHAT he left in proportion to the whole as compared to all the others; this unit which we?ll call x again is calculated thus?
2/3x (girls share) + 0 (others) = 1
x = 3/2"so for them (F) two thirds what he left,"
2/3 * 3/2 = 1 (i.e. the whole) divided equally amongst the 3 of themEquation is set equal to 1 in ALL CASES and works perfectly for ALL CASES!
Do you really believe God would reveal something so easily trounced with countless examples or the absurd logic of 1+1+1 = 1 or God needs to pray to God?
Happy New Year!
Peace
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Dear Nun de Plume,
I am hoping that you are right. But, I have question marks. Quran is literally saying "2/3 what he leaves." Now, you turn that statement into " 2/3 what he leaves in proportion to the whole as compared to all the others."
What is your justification for this? This is my first question to you.As an answer to your question, if there are just three daughters to inherit, according to Quran they would get 2/3 and the remaining 1/3 would go to the poor and needy in accordance with the verse 48
Furthermore, Quran does not necessarily want the whole inheritance to be distributed. If you look at 4176, in the case where there is only brother to inherit he gets full inheritance. If there is only one sister to inherit, Quran consciously leaves 1/2 undistributed, as a remainder.My second question to you is the following. If there are 3 sons, 1 daughter, 1 mother, 1 father and 1 wife
the distribution would be perfect because first the shares of mother, father and wife would be given and the rest would be distributed among the sons and daughters in such a way that the each son gets twice as the daughter.
If you do this distribution, you will see that in distributing the money among the mother, father and wife you
cannot apply your algebraic method. If you had done that, you would distribute the whole inheritance(because you set the whole equation equal to 1) and nothing would be left for the children. The point is that you cannot apply your algebraic method in all cases.But, my first question is the most important Given that Quran does not necessarily want the whole inheritance to be distributed, How do you justify making
2/3 the inheritanceequal to2/3 the inheritance in a comparison with other shares? In fact, to remind you again, my problem is not about the remainders but about the excess-when fractions add up to more than one.Onur
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When I went through it I found it all added up perfectly but always left a small surplus. No use of any algebraic unknowns, just pure addition of proportions.
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Greetings Onur,
I am hoping that you are right. But, I have question marks. Quran is literally saying "2/3 what he leaves." Now, you turn that statement into " 2/3 what he leaves in proportion to the whole as compared to all the others."
What is your justification for this? This is my first question to you.WHAT (?) is asking something to be defined in any language, right?
?2/3 WHAT he leaves? is not same as definite ?2/3 OF THE inheritance.?
As an answer to your question, if there are just three daughters to inherit, according to Quran they would get 2/3 and the remaining 1/3 would go to the poor and needy in accordance with the verse 48
The daughters get the whole and 48 says nothing about remaining ? it?s only a reminder to be charitable...
48 And if of the relations, and the orphans, and the poorest of poor/poor oppressed attended the apportionment/division, so provide for them from it, and say to them a saying (that is) kind/good.
Furthermore, Quran does not necessarily want the whole inheritance to be distributed. If you look at 4176, in the case where there is only brother to inherit he gets full inheritance. If there is only one sister to inherit, Quran consciously leaves 1/2 undistributed, as a remainder.
The one sister gets the whole thing?
4176 They ask your opinion/clarification , say "God decrees/decides in the man or woman without a son/father , if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half (of) what he left, and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child, and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal/alike (the) share (of) the two females, God clarifies for you that (E) you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.
x = WHAT (variable to be defined) in proportion to the whole compared to all the others.
? x (sister?s share) + 0 (others) = 1
x = 2?so for her half (of) what he left?
? * 2 = 1 (i.e. she gets the whole inheritance)
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My second question to you is the following. If there are 3 sons, 1 daughter, 1 mother, 1 father and 1 wife
the distribution would be perfect because first the shares of mother, father and wife would be given and the rest would be distributed among the sons and daughters in such a way that the each son gets twice as the daughter.
If you do this distribution, you will see that in distributing the money among the mother, father and wife you
cannot apply your algebraic method. If you had done that, you would distribute the whole inheritance(because you set the whole equation equal to 1) and nothing would be left for the children. The point is that you cannot apply your algebraic method in all cases.It works perfectly for all cases?
3 Sons; 1 Daughter; 1 Wife; 1 Father; 1 Mother;
411 God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal fortune the two females, so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) two thirds what he left, and if she was one, so for her the half and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the sixth from what he left, if for him was a child (son), so if (there) was not for him a child (son), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third, so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the sixth, from after a bequest/will he bequeaths with it or a debt; your (P) fathers and your (P) sons, you (P) do not know, which of them (is) closer to you (P) (in) benefit/usefulness, a religious duty/command from God, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.
412 And for you (P) half what your (P) spouses/wives left, if (there) was/is not for them (F) a child, so if (there) was/is for them a child, so for you (P) the quarter from what they (F) left from after a bequest/will they (F) bequeath/direct with it or a debt, and for them (F) the quarter from what you (P) left, if (there) was not for you (P) a child, so if (there) was for you (P) a child, so for them (F) the eighth from what you (P) left from after a bequest/will you (P) bequeath/direct with it or a debt, and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited without a child or father or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the sixth, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the third, from after a bequest/will is bequeathed/directed with it or a debt not harming, (a) direction/command from God, and God (is) knowledgeable clement.
Thus 1 (i.e. the whole) ? (2 * 1/6 (parent) + 1/8 (wife)) = children?s share
13/24 = children?s shareSons get 13/84 each or ?to the male equal fortune the two females?
Daughter gets 13/168
OR use general equation?
? x (daughter) + 3 * (2 * ? x (son)) + 2 * 1/6 (parent share) + 1/8 (wife share) = 1
7/2x + 1/3 + 1/8 = 1
7/2x = 13/24
x = 2/7 * 13/24
x = 26/168Daughter = ? * 26/168 = 13/168
Therefore, distribution is
Sons get 13/84 each
Daughter gets 13/168
Wife gets 1/8
Father gets 1/6
Mother gets 1/6Of course, each person is reminded to be generous and kind to the poor.
It is never the case of a remainder or excess nor do fractions ever add up > than one.
Peace
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Salaams Onur, All,
please tel me if i am in the wrong,
I think the admin fee is available in the inheritance- i think.
No wife situation; the share increases to the children if there are more of them.
Shares to one child, and or a number of children,
Shares to parents in case of children and no children,
Shares to brothers and sisters in case of no children.411
Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance) to the male, a portion equal to that of two females if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.Now when there is a wife as well; the 2/3 share to 3 or more children cannot be applied-read the ayah below;
Your share in case of child and no child,
The wife?s share in case of a child and no child,
412In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.
But no worries if i am in the wrong.
God Bless..
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Dear Nun de Plume,
This is verse 4176
They seek a ruling from you, say "God gives you the ruling for those who have no descendants. If a person passes away and has no children but has a sister, then she shall receive half of what he leaves behind. And he will inherit from her fully if she has no child.
if a man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half (of) what he left, and he inherits her fully if (there) was not for her a childIn this part, Quran is talking about 1) what the sister gets if there is no other inheritor 2) what the brother gets if there is no other inheritor.
For 1) Quran says she(sister) gets 1/2 For 2) Quran says he(brother) gets full inheritance.Remember that Quran presents this case as a case in which there is no other inheritor. So you do not have to put in your formulate any category relating to other inheritors. It is already given that there is no other inheritor.
Now, Quran is obvioulsy making a distinction between 1 and 2, between what the sister gets and what the brother gets. But, in your solution there is no distinction. Both gets full.
Now, if there was no distinction necessary, why would the Quran make any distinction? Then, what is Quran's point of saying 1/2 for the sister? It could say 1/3, 1/6, 1/7, 1/8 and in your method she would still get full(1) no matter what.
So according to your theory it is completely vain for Quran to fix 1/2 for the sister in this case in which Quran says that there is no other inheritor.
I think this completely refutes your theory.In answer to your question, if you say "2/3 the inheritance" to any person he will understand "2/3 of the inheritance" and not your " 2/3 the inheritance before comparing with the share of others." Let us make a survey if you want.
And in your solution for the case with 3 sons, 1 daughter, 1 mother, 1 father and 1 wife you apply your algebraic method only after first doing regular distribution for the shares of mother, father and wife. Since this not a big difficulty, however, I will not push this point further. You only need to convince me about the other points I raise in this post. Thanks
Onur -
Greetings Onur,
This is verse 4176
In this part, Quran is talking about 1) what the sister gets if there is no other inheritor 2) what the brother gets if there is no other inheritor.
For 1) Quran says she(sister) gets 1/2 For 2) Quran says he(brother) gets full inheritance.Remember that Quran presents this case as a case in which there is no other inheritor. So you do not have to put in your formulate any category relating to other inheritors. It is already given that there is no other inheritor.
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Does verse say no other inheritor and exclude mother and/or spouses?
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Does verse say brother gets full inheritance and excludes mother and/or spouses or does it only name him as a participant?
4176 They ask your opinion/clarification , say "God decrees/decides in the man or woman without a son/father, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her half (of) what he left, and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child, and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the two thirds from what he left, and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal/alike (the) share (of) the two females, God clarifies for you that (E) you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.
Now, Quran is obvioulsy making a distinction between 1 and 2, between what the sister gets and what the brother gets. But, in your solution there is no distinction. Both gets full.
They both only get full amounts without a mother and/or spouses present.
I believe if it not worded exactly Qur?an verse 4176 would contradict verse 411-12?
Thank you for your questions, this was a good exercise and reminds me always best to draw up a will. lol
I really need to prepare for travel and new job. Hope to have time to continue this.
4176 ??God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.
Peace
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Greetings Onur,
And in your solution for the case with 3 sons, 1 daughter, 1 mother, 1 father and 1 wife you apply your algebraic method only after first doing regular distribution for the shares of mother, father and wife. Since this not a big difficulty, however, I will not push this point further. You only need to convince me about the other points I raise in this post. Thanks
OnurWanted to address this question for future reference.
Pay close attention to literal wording especially where "from" appears which denotes substraction.
To Children
411 God directs you in your children, to the male equal fortune the two females,
so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) 2/3 what he left, and if she was one, so for her the ?To Parents
411 and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child (son),
so if (there) was not for him a child (son), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the 1/6, from after a bequest/will he bequeaths with it or a debt; your (P) fathers and your (P) sons,To Husband
412 And for you (P) 1/2 what your (P) spouses/wives left, if (there) was/is not for them (F) a child,so if (there) was/is for them a child, so for you (P) the ? from what they (F) left from after a bequest/will they (F) bequeath/direct with it or a debt,
To Wives
412 and for them (F) the ? from what you (P) left, if (there) was not for you (P) a child,
so if (there) was for you (P) a child, so for them (F) the 1/8 from what you (P) left from after a bequest/will you (P) bequeath/direct with it or a debt,To Brothers and Sisters (mother and/or wife may not be excluded)
412 and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited without a child or father or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the 1/6,
so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3, from after a bequest/will is bequeathed/directed with it or a debt not harming, (a) direction/command from God, and God (is) knowledgeable clement.4176 say "God decrees/decides in the man or woman without a son/father, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her 1/2 what he left,
and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child,
and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the 2/3 from what he left,
and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal share the two females,Example 3 Sons; 1 Daughter; 1 Wife; 1 Father; 1 Mother;
To Parents
411 and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child (son),
To Wife
412 so if (there) was for you (P) a child, so for them (F) the 1/8 from what you (P) left from after a bequest/will you (P) bequeath/direct with it or a debt,1 (the whole) ? 2 * 1/6 (parent share) ? 1/8 (wife share) = children?s share
To Children (at least one son, 2 for 1 apply and it's straight forward)
411 God directs you in your children, to the male equal fortune the 2 females,1 (the whole) ? (2 * 1/6 (parent) + 1/8 (wife)) = 3 * 2x (son share) + x (daughter share)
1 ? 1/3 ? 1/8 = 7x
24/24 ? 8/24 ? 3/24 = 7x
13/24 = 7x
13/24 * 1/7 = x (daughter share)13/168 = Daughter
13/84 = Son each
1/8 = Wife
1/6 = Mother
1/6 = FatherExample 3 Daughters, Mother, Father, Wife
To Parents
411 and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child (son),To Wife
412 so if (there) was for you (P) a child, so for them (F) the 1/8 from what you (P) left from after a bequest/will you (P) bequeath/direct with it or a debt,To Children (2/3 applies since only daughters else if a son then 2 for 1)
411 God directs you in your children, to the male equal fortune the two females,
so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) 2/3 what he left, and if she was one, so for her the ?what = x (variable)
notice no from!1 (the whole) ? 1/8x (wife share) ? 1/6x (father share) ? 1/6x (mother share) = 2/3x (3 daughters share)
1 = 2/3x + 1/8x + 1/3x
1 = x + 1/8x
1 = 8/8 + 1/8x = 9/8x
8/9 = xDaughters get 2/3 * 8/9 = 16/27 divided equally amongst the 3 of them
Wife gets 1/8 * 8/9 = 3/27 or 1/9
Father gets 1/6 * 8/9 = 4/27
Mother gets 1/6 * 8/9 = 4/27Peace
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Dear Nun de Plume,
This is a quite interesting observation. So, if I am understanding you correctly, your general formula is to do subtraction-regular distribution when the word "from" occurs and to do your algebraic method for the cases in which the word "from" does not occur. I have to think through this and to see if it applies to all cases consistently. Just a quick question. If there is only 1 wife as inheritor, the verse 412 says 1/4 from what you left In that case, I believe you would still give her the whole inheritance and it would not make any difference if it was 1/4 what you left Is that so? And, how would you solve a case with one wife( 1/4 from what you left) and one mother( 1/3 according to 411 and the word from does not occur) Would you apply your algebraic method comparing 1/4 and 1/3 or would you do something else? You might be on to something with this general formula but I need sometime to think about it and test it.
And on a seperate issue I believe there is a problem with the translations of the verse 4176 because it assigns different shares to sisters and brothers than 412 in the same cases. For example, 412 gives both the sister and the brother 1/6 whereas 4176 gives the sister 1/2 and the brother 1/1. According to most translations both 412 and 4176 seem to give those shares to brothers and sisters in the same case- in cases in which there are no other inheritors(parents, children and spouses). There is probably something wrong with those translations and the difficulty in translation might be stemming from the word 'kalalah' in 412 and 4176.
But we can stick for now with your interesting observation about the word from and applications of your general formula to some cases. Thanks
Onur
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Dear Nun de Plume,
You seem to be using two different equations for 1) mother, father, wife, 3 sons and 1 daughter and 2) mother, father, wife, 3 daughters even though in both cases the word 'from' occurs for the shares of mother, father and wife
For the 1) 1 (the whole) ? (2 * 1/6 (parent) + 1/8 (wife)) = 3 * 2x (son share) + x (daughter share)
For the 2) 1 (the whole) ? 1/8x (wife share) ? 1/6x (father share) ? 1/6x (mother share) = 2/3x (3 daughters share)
In the 1st equation you are not putting x for the parents and wife in order to avoid an equation with two unknowns(because the shares of sons and daughters are only compared with each other as the son gets twice as the daughter). I think the first case and equation are totally consistent with the text of Quran. In the second equation, however, you decide to put x for everything basing this on the observation that the word 'from' does not occur for the shares of three daughters .
My questions to you 1) for the second equation what difference would it make if the verse said '2/3 from what he left' instead of '2/3 what he left' for the shares of three daughters 2) for the first equation what difference would it make if the verse said '1/8 what you left' for the wife and '1/6 what he left' for the parents instead of '1/8 from what you left' and '1/6 from what he left'.
Thanks
Onur -
Greetings Onur,
Just a quick question. If there is only 1 wife as inheritor, the verse 412 says 1/4 from what you left In that case, I believe you would still give her the whole inheritance and it would not make any difference if it was 1/4 what you left Is that so?
Inheritance laws are to arbitrate division of property; therefore a single inheritor always gets the whole since no division of property is necessary. This is common sense.
? from what is fixed;
? what is variable.And, how would you solve a case with one wife( 1/4 from what you left) and one mother( 1/3 according to 411 and the word from does not occur) Would you apply your algebraic method comparing 1/4 and 1/3 or would you do something else?
Case 1 Wife; 1 Mother;
To Parents
411 so if (there) was not for him a child (son), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,Not applicable; no child and only one parent. (1/3 is special case only if parents are heirs)
1 (the whole) ? 1/3 (mother?s share) = father?s share = 2/3412 and for them (F) the ? from what you (P) left, if (there) was not for you (P) a child,
1(the whole) ? ? (wife share) = mother?s share = ?
And on a seperate issue I believe there is a problem with the translations of the verse 4176 because it assigns different shares to sisters and brothers than 412 in the same cases. For example, 412 gives both the sister and the brother 1/6 whereas 4176 gives the sister 1/2 and the brother 1/1.
The sister/brother get whole if either is a sole inheritor; common sense.
4176 "...and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child? ? only names brother as participant.
412 the 1/6 is fixed and only applies if both brother and sister to man without a child or father or wife (mother not excluded).
4176 the 1/2 what is variable and only applies if sister to man or woman without a son/father (mother and/or spouse not excluded).
Case 1 Mother 1 Sister;
To Parents
411 and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child (son),
so if (there) was not for him a child (son), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,Not applicable ? no child and only one parent. (1/3 is special case only if parents are heirs)
Thus 1 ? 1/3 (mother?s share) = father?s share = 2/3412 ?and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the 1/6, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3?
Not applicable ? there is only a sister.
4176 say "God decrees/decides in the man or woman without a son/father, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her 1/2 what he left,
x = WHAT (variable) he left in proportion to the whole compared to all the others.
1 ? x (mother?s share unknown) = ? x (sister?s share ? * unknown)
1 = 1/2x + x = 3/2x
x = 2/3?so for her 1/2 what he left,?
Sister = ? * 2/3 = 1/3
Mother = 2/3In above case Qur'an disagrees with most scholars/Islamic schools of thought which assign excess to Islamic Treasury.
Which tells us who was in charge of the Islamic Treasury and influenced the scholars.
Islamic Treasury (IRS.gov lol) only gets inheritance when their are NO inheritors. In spirit it should go to the poor.
Case 1 Mother 1 Brother;
To Parents
411 and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child (son),
so if (there) was not for him a child (son), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,Not applicable ? no child and only one parent.
412 ?and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the 1/6, so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3?
Not applicable ? there is only a brother.
4176 ?and if they were brothers men and women, so to the male equal/alike share the two females, God clarifies for you that (E) you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.
This case the mother is treated same as a sister..."so to the male equal/alike share the two females"
1 = mother?s share + 2 * mother?s share (brother?s share)
1 = 3 * mother?s share
1/3 = mother?s share
2/3 = brother?s shareAccording to most translations both 412 and 4176 seem to give those shares to brothers and sisters in the same case- in cases in which there are no other inheritors(parents, children and spouses). There is probably something wrong with those translations and the difficulty in translation might be stemming from the word 'kalalah' in 412 and 4176.
Inheritance calculations involve math (language international) thus literal translation should always be used.
Peace
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You seem to be using two different equations for 1) mother, father, wife, 3 sons and 1 daughter and 2) mother, father, wife, 3 daughters even though in both cases the word 'from' occurs for the shares of mother, father and wife
For the 1) 1 (the whole) ? (2 * 1/6 (parent) + 1/8 (wife)) = 3 * 2x (son share) + x (daughter share)
For the 2) 1 (the whole) ? 1/8x (wife share) ? 1/6x (father share) ? 1/6x (mother share) = 2/3x (3 daughters share)
1 (the whole) ? (2 * 1/6 (parent) + 1/8 (wife)) = 3 * 2x (son share) + x (daughter share)
Above all amounts are fixed including amount to the children at 21 ratio and thus
x = daugther share
2x = son sharePerhaps you can see it if written as such?
1 (the whole) ? (2 * 1/6 (parent) + 1/8 (wife)) = 3 * (2*daughters share (son share)) + daughter share
1 (the whole) ? (2 * 1/6 (parent) + 1/8 (wife)) = 7 * daugther share
basically give parents and wife their fixed share and remainder fixed share to children at 21 ratio.
Above ratio is in relation to brothers whereas below amounts are variable to WHAT he/she left her in proportion/ratio to all...
x = WHAT
1 (the whole) ? 1/8x (wife share) ? 1/6x (father share) ? 1/6x (mother share) = 2/3x (3 daughters share)
Try working a few more examples to clarify.
Peace
