Quran inheritance mistake

Onur

?alkalalati? (No Father, No Mother, No Children)

4176 say "God decrees/decides in the man or woman without a son/father, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her 1/2 what he left,
and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child,
and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the 2/3 from what he left,
and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal share the two females,

I welcome any new contradicting test cases...

Peace

So if a man leaves behind two sisters and one wife, two sisters get 2/3 from what he left(4176) and the wife gets 1/4 from what he left( 412) Since the word "from" is used for both and we cannot do the algebra method, what will happen to the remainder 1/12 ? If we do the algebra to distribute the remainder, on the other hand, the distinction between "from what" and "what" becomes meaningless.

Onur

?alkalalati? (No Father, No Mother, No Children)

4176 say "God decrees/decides in the man or woman without a son/father, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her 1/2 what he left,
and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child,
and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the 2/3 from what he left,
and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal share the two females,

I welcome any new contradicting test cases...

Peace

So if a man leaves behind two sisters and one wife, two sisters get 2/3 from what he left(4176) and the wife gets 1/4 from what he left( 412) Since the word "from" is used for both and we cannot do the algebra method, what will happen to the remainder 1/12 ? If we do the algebra to distribute the remainder, on the other hand, the distinction between "from what" and "what" becomes meaningless.

Just to brainstorm 4176 might be giving the shares of brothers and sisters of a man with no children and spouses but with a mother. The mother's share when there are siblings is 1/6 according to 411 and the word "from" does not exist for it.( I am disregarding the word "from" that occurs in the Muhammad Ahmad-Samira Ahmad translation before the phrase "after the payment of legacies" because it does not exist in the actual Quran and it does not contribute to the meaning. The word "after" suffices for the meaning.) So, we would not be applying 4176 for a case with two sisters and one wife. If we had applied it, we would have two shares with the word from, not adding to a 1 and leaving remainders. We would not be allowed to do algebra because the word "from" exists for both shares.

I think in general we should avoid a case with two or more shares all with the word "from" because in that case we cannot do algebra to distribute the remainder... Unless we want to drop the distinction between "what" and "from what."

I believe in a case with a mother, 3 sisters and 3 brothers we would be doing the following.

3 sisters and 3 brothers(1/3) according to 412
Mother (1/6) according to 411
No From
We would first do algebra between those two. Siblings have 2/3 and mother has 1/3. Then, brothers and sisters share their share of 2/3 according to the formula 1 male gets 2 female( 4176). We would be applying both 412 and 4176 in that case at the same time.

unknownuser

Greetings Onur,

It was ?kalalatan? in 412 which was misinterpreted ? there is a father!

wa-in kana rajulun yoorathu kalalatan awi imraatun
412 "...and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited without a child or a woman (wife),

Here is the updated and I believe correct non-contradicting template?

an-Nisa' (Women) 411
God directs/commands/recommends you in your children, to the male equal (the) fortune (share of) the two females,
If sons and daughters then 21 male/female ratio

so if they are/were women more/over two, so for them (F) 2/3 what he left, and if she was one, so for her the ?
If only daughters two or more 2/3; if only one daughter 1/2

and to his parents, to each one from them (B) the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,

so if (there) was not for him a child (son), and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
If no child and only parents 1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the 1/6,
1 ? 1/6 mother = brothers/sisters (see 412 and 4176 for distributions)

from after a bequest/will he bequeaths with it or a debt; your (P) fathers and your (P) sons, you (P) do not know, which of them (is) closer to you (P) (in) benefit/usefulness, a religious duty/command from God, that God was/is knowledgeable, wise/judicious.

an-Nisa' (Women) 412
TO HUSBAND
And for you (P) ? what your (P) spouses/wives left, if (there) was/is not for them (F) a child,
so if (there) was/is for them a child, so for you (P) the ? from what they (F) left from after a bequest/will they (F) bequeath/direct with it or a debt,

TO WIVES
and for them (F) the ? from what you (P) left, if (there) was not for you (P) a child,
so if (there) was for you (P) a child, so for them (F) the 1/8 from what you (P) left from after a bequest/will you (P) bequeath/direct with it or a debt,

"kalalatan" ? loner with mother, father, and/or siblings

and if (he) was/is a man to be inherited without a child or a woman (wife), and for him (is) a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them (B) the 1/6,
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/6 brother = 2/3 father
1 ? 1/3 mother ? 1/6 sister = ? father

so if they were more than that, so they are partners in the 1/3, from after a bequest/will is bequeathed/directed with it or a debt not harming, (a) direction/command from God, and God (is) knowledgeable clement.
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 brothers and sisters = ? father
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 brothers = ? father
1 ? 1/3 mother ? 1/3 sisters = 1/3 father

4176 ?alkalalati? ? the loner with only mother and/or siblings

They ask your opinion/clarification, say "God decrees/decides in the man or woman without a son/father, if (a) man/human died, not for him (without) a child, and for him (is) a sister, so for her ? what he left,
1 ? 1/3x mother = 1/2x sister
1 ? 1/3x ? 1/2x = 0; 1 ? 2/6x ? 3/6x = 0; 1 = 5/6x; x = 6/5
1/3*6/5 = 2/5 mother;
?*6/5 = 3/5 sister

and he inherits her if (there) was not for her a child,
If only a brother = 1 (obviously sole heir nothing to divide)

and if they (B) were two (F), so to them (B/F) the 2/3 from what he left,
If two sisters 1 ? 1/3 mother = 2/3 sisters

and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal/alike (the) share (of) the two females, God clarifies for you that (E) you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.
1 ? 1/6 mother = brothers/sisters 21

Case 3 brothers; 3 sisters; father
1 ? 1/3 brothers and sisters = 2/3 father

Case 3 brothers; 3 sisters; mother
411 so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the 1/6,
1 ? 1/6 mother = brothers/sisters (see 412 and 4176 for distributions)

4 176 and if they were brothers (siblings) men and women, so to the male equal/alike (the) share (of) the two females, God clarifies for you that (E) you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 brothers/sisters 21 or 5/27 each brother and 5/54 each sister

Peace

Onur

Hello Nun de Plume,

How do you deal with case involving both siblings and spouses? Two sisters and one wife? Two sisters and one husband?

On another note I am wondering if the word alkalalati necessarily involves having no children. Because 4176 says

"They ask your opinion/clarification, say "God decrees/decides in the alkalalati, if not for him (without) a child"

If kalalati had no child by definition, then it would be futile to say, if a man dies kalalati and has no child.... because having "no child" would already be included in the meaning of kalalati and there would be no need to bring the additional clause of having no child....

unknownuser

Hello Onur,

412 kalalatan awi imraatun ? applies to man without a woman.

4176 alkalalati ? man/woman unmarried, widower, or divorced perhaps?

I haven?t had time to check into this and all possible cases although suspect that when a man dies and leaves a wife/children (widow/orphans) his brothers/sisters get nothing.

unknownuser

Hello Onur,

412 kalalatan awi imraatun ? applies to man without a woman.

4176 alkalalati ? man/woman unmarried, widower, or divorced perhaps?

I haven?t had time to check into this and all possible cases although suspect that when a man dies and leaves a wife/children (widow/orphans) his brothers/sisters get nothing.

Kalaalah = A person without ascendants or descendants (No father/No child)

unknownuser

Kalaalah = A person without ascendants or descendants (No father/No child)

Are you sure? How do you know for certain the person has no father?

Parwez also disagrees and applies different meanings...

Expositon of Quran
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_004.htm

412 kalalatan

If the deceased leaves no children and his heirs are parents and brothers and sisters*, then-

4176 alkalalati

At the beginning of this Surah instructions were given regarding the distribution of inheritance of a deceased who leaves no children but has brothers, sisters and parents (4/12). The inheritance of a deceased who leaves neither children nor parents should be distributed as follows-

Onur

I think kalalah may just mean "has no spouse" that is, a single man or woman
412 concerns what siblings get when a kalalah with children dies.
4176 concerns what siblings get when a kalalah with no no children dies.
Notice that 4176 says if a man dies kalalah and has no children....

unknownuser

Are you sure? How do you know for certain the person has no father?

Parwez also disagrees and applies different meanings...

Expositon of Quran
http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/expo/expo_004.htm

Dear Nun de plume
I never thought that common sense is so uncommon. The inheritance is being disussed .Is this not possible when a person dies ,then at the time death his father has already died and he has no children (either not born or dead) ???
Anyway for your reference
Al ? Qamoos ul Muheet

Basaair ZawilTameez by Ferozabadi

/
( )

In his Lughat ul Quran Pervaiz says that majority is in favor of the meaning that "Kalalah " is that who has no child or parents at the time of death. Reference Lughat ul Quran page 1452-1453.

412

004.012
YUSUFALI In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.
PICKTHAL And unto you belongeth a half of that which your wives leave, if they have no child; but if they have a child then unto you the fourth of that which they leave, after any legacy they may have bequeathed, or debt (they may have contracted, hath been paid). And unto them belongeth the fourth of that which ye leave if ye have no child, but if ye have a child then the eighth of that which ye leave, after any legacy ye may have bequeathed, or debt (ye may have contracted, hath been paid). And if a man or a woman have a distant heir (having left neither parent nor child), and he (or she) have a brother or a sister (only on the mother's side) then to each of them twain (the brother and the sister) the sixth, and if they be more than two, then they shall be sharers in the third, after any legacy that may have been bequeathed or debt (contracted) not injuring (the heirs by willing away more than a third of the heritage) hath been paid. A commandment from Allah. Allah is Knower, Indulgent.
SHAKIR And you shall have half of what your wives leave if they have no child, but if they have a child, then you shall have a fourth of what they leave after (payment of) any bequest they may have bequeathed or a debt; and they shall have the fourth of what you leave if you have no child, but if you have a child then they shall have the eighth of what you leave after (payment of) a bequest you may have bequeathed or a debt; and if a man or a woman leaves property to be inherited by neither parents nor offspring, and he (or she) has a brother or a sister, then each of them two shall have the sixth, but if they are more than that, they shall be sharers in the third after (payment of) any bequest that may have been bequeathed or a debt that does not harm (others); this is an ordinance from Allah and Allah is Knowing, Forbearing.
MUHAMMAD ASAD 412
And you shall inherit one-half of what your wives leave behind, provided they have left no child; but if they have left a child, then you shall have one-quarter of what they leave behind, after any bequest they may have made, or any debt . And your widows9 shall have one-quarter of what you leave behind, provided you have left no child; but if you have left a child, then they shall have one-eighth of what you leave behind, after any bequest you may have made, or any debt .
And if a man or a woman has no heir in the direct line, but has a brother or a sister, then each of these two shall inherit one-sixth; but if there are more than two,10 then they shall share in one-third , after any bequest that may have been made, or any debt , neither of which having been intended to harm .11

Dictionary of the Holy Quran Page 494
?
To lose father and child
To lose direct heirs

One who has no child (412)
One who has neither parents left nor a child (4176)

Regards

unknownuser

I think kalalah may just mean "has no spouse" that is, a single man or woman

412 kalalatan awi imraatun

It?s redundant to say ?spouseless without a woman? unless to give definition perhaps.

412 concerns what siblings get when a kalalah with children dies.
4176 concerns what siblings get when a kalalah with no no children dies.

Interesting, then

412 applies only in case of a man with child
4176 applies in case of a man or woman without child

Question what is the case for spouseless woman?s inheritance with only a child?

Of course child inherits the whole.

Illogical that in case of a man, his child has to share with greedy uncles/aunts.

Notice that 4176 says if a man dies kalalah and has no children....

Perhaps another clue that a subset of definition means also childless.

412 kalalatan ? spouseless/childless and parents

4176 alkalalati ? spouseless/childless/fatherless and mother

I?m fairly the certain above works for all cases without contradicting.

unknownuser

Dear AGNOSTIC/Leoxyz -- good to see you post again and I'm sure we'll all benefit.

I never thought that common sense is so uncommon. The inheritance is being disussed .Is this not possible when a person dies ,then at the time death his father has already died and he has no children (either not born or dead) ???

I asked "How do you know for certain the person has no father?" NOT is this NOT possible.

In his Lughat ul Quran Pervaiz says that majority is in favor of the meaning that "Kalalah " is that who has no child or parents at the time of death. Reference Lughat ul Quran page 1452-1453.

Why -- was there a debate about the meaning of Kalalah?

Please read thread from beginning for there are numerous contradictions to address.

Case Mother; Brother
1/6 mother (411) + 1/6 brother (412) = 1/3 too little!

Case 3 Daughters, Father, Mother, Wife
2/3 daughters + 1/3 parents + 1/8 wife = too much!

Case Mother; Brother; Sister ? please tell us which verses to use?

004.011
YUSUFALI Allah (thus) directs you as regards your Children's (Inheritance) to the male, a portion equal to that of two females if only daughters, two or more, their share is two-thirds of the inheritance; if only one, her share is a half. For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise.

Mother = 1/6

004.012
YUSUFALI In what your wives leave, your share is a half, if they leave no child; but if they leave a child, ye get a fourth; after payment of legacies and debts. In what ye leave, their share is a fourth, if ye leave no child; but if ye leave a child, they get an eighth; after payment of legacies and debts. If the man or woman whose inheritance is in question, has left neither ascendants nor descendants, but has left a brother or a sister, each one of the two gets a sixth; but if more than two, they share in a third; after payment of legacies and debts; so that no loss is caused (to any one). Thus is it ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Most Forbearing.

Brother = 1/6
Sister = 1/6

004.176
YUSUFALI They ask thee for a legal decision. Say Allah directs (thus) about those who leave no descendants or ascendants as heirs. If it is a man that dies, leaving a sister but no child, she shall have half the inheritance If (such a deceased was) a woman, who left no child, Her brother takes her inheritance If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having twice the share of the female. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things.

Brother = 2 * Sister

1/6 mother + 1/6 brother + 1/6 sister = ?

OR

1/6 mother + 2/6 brother + 1/6 sister = 2/3

Dictionary of the Holy Quran Page 494
?
To lose father and child
To lose direct heirs

One who has no child (412)
One who has neither parents left nor a child (4176)

I agree 4176 alkalalati includes childess/fatherless not sure about 412 kalalatan

Best regards!

unknownuser

I agree 4176 alkalalati includes childess/fatherless not sure about 412 kalalatan
Best regards!

Why not sure in the presence of fully explained Quran ??
Better if you can learn Language of the Quran so that you can understand the Quran instead of beating about the bush.
BTW I have seen name of some Leoxyz in many posts.Who is he ? Why all of you have this much leoxyz phobia that you are frightened even in your dreams.Why so much phobia??

unknownuser

Why not sure in the presence of fully explained Quran ??
Better if you can learn Language of the Quran so that you can understand the Quran instead of beating about the bush.
BTW I have seen name of some Leoxyz in many posts.Who is he ? Why all of you have this much leoxyz phobia that you are frightened even in your dreams.Why so much phobia??

Yes, I'm not sure about your interpretation because it contradicts.

Why you beating around the bush avoiding solving the simple case? You know lanquage of Qur'an, right?

Case 3 Daughters, Father, Mother, Wife
2/3 daughters + 1/3 parents + 1/8 wife = 1 + 1/8; why too much?

Case Mother; Brother; Sister ? please tell us which verses to use 412 or 4176 and which equation?

1/6 mother + 1/6 brother + 1/6 sister = ?
OR
1/6 mother + 2/6 brother + 1/6 sister = 2/3

Feel free to ask myself or Onur and we?ll teach you the forgotten wisdom of Al-Faraid.

Oh, and Leoxyz was the guy who was NOT SURE where his elbow was? ;D

Peace

Tay

Why all of you have this much leoxyz phobia that you are frightened even in your dreams.

Why do you keep changing names and ip addresses despite being banned?
You should have learned after your first warning how to discuss respectfully.

Jack

Hey Tay,

Is that what 5 times now or what? I've lost count !

peace

Tay

Peace Imran,

I've lost count too. The thing that I don't get is if someone is so determined to sneak their way back in to the forum, the least they could do is cease breaking the forum rules with the new identity. I mean, even if he somehow slipped through the cracks, he'd still get banned again for being the same way with people.

Which leads me to conclude that any resemblance to earnest contribution is just a smoke screen to disguise disdain. For whatever reason, some people just feel threatened by this forum and are compelled to try to throw a monkey wrench in the gears. I don't understand how people with so much knowledge of the qur'an can completely miss the theme of being kind and respectful to one another - and to remain open to new ideas. It's like they've memorized the mechanics but in the process, forgot what the machine is designed to do.

Peace,
Tay

Onur

Hello again Nun De Plume,

I believe you are hanging into the following for kalalatan

412 kalalatan ? spouseless/childless but have both parents

4176 alkalalati ? spouseless/childless/fatherless but has a mother

Is that so?

On another note I believe in the case of one brother and one mother, mother would still get her share 1/6 and the brother would get the rest 5/6 because the verse 4176 says that brother inherits the wealth of his sister. Some commentators insert the word "fully" there saying he (fully) inherits her but the word "fully" does not really exist.
Mother needs to get her share.

And Would you consider writing an article about inheritance after this discussion? Following points could be made

Since we do not want any remainders, we always take the fractions as variables( 2/3x, 1/6x, 1/2x) and set the total to 1. In the case when there are boys and girls together as children, there is no problem of remainder(because in such cases children get whatever remains after other shares are first distributed) and therefore we can assume X=1

I figured we do not really need the "what" and "from what" distinction because sometimes the distinction does not work as we have to make "from" cases variable as well.

kalalatan means different things for 412 and 4176.

What do you say?

Onur

unknownuser

Greetings Onur,

I believe you are hanging into the following for kalalatan

412 kalalatan ? spouseless/childless but have both parents

4176 alkalalati ? spouseless/childless/fatherless but has a mother

Is that so?

That is correct.

On another note I believe in the case of one brother and one mother, mother would still get her share 1/6 and the brother would get the rest 5/6 because the verse 4176 says that brother inherits the wealth of his sister. Some commentators insert the word "fully" there saying he (fully) inherits her but the word "fully" does not really exist.
Mother needs to get her share.

That is correct. Fully is only if brother/anyone being sole heir.

Else these cases would mean brother gets the whole amount

Brother; Mother
Brother; Husband
Brother; Mother; Husband

This contradicts?

411 ?so if brothers were for him, so to his mother the 1/6
412 ?And for you (P) ? what your (P) spouses/wives left, if (there) was/is not for them (F) a child

And Would you consider writing an article about inheritance after this discussion? Following points could be made

Since we do not want any remainders, we always take the fractions as variables( 2/3x, 1/6x, 1/2x) and set the total to 1. In the case when there are boys and girls together as children, there is no problem of remainder(because in such cases children get whatever remains after other shares are first distributed) and therefore we can assume X=1

I figured we do not really need the "what" and "from what" distinction because sometimes the distinction does not work as we have to make "from" cases variable as well.

Yes, it would be a benefit to write a non-contradicting interpretation since that is the only correct one.

I believe differentiation between M Taraka and Mimm Taraka is for a reason and part of instructions.

kalalatan means different things for 412 and 4176.

What do you say?

Yes similar to how nunation subtly changes the meaning of a term...

http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/I%CA%BFr%C4%81b

I am unfortunately time constrained and welcome assistance from any members interested to help write this up as an article.

Peace

Onur

I was also excited about the "what"/ "from what" distinction but then it turned out that "from what" cases are sometimes treated as variables just like the "what" cases.

You can have a general rule like "you do not need to apply the algebra method if all your cases are "from what" cases"
But this general rule does not seem very insightful to me.

Upon reading our whole discussion again, I found your suggestion, what(the Arabic word ma)=X more helpful. what(ma)= a variable
As you say, In mathematical language, X denotes a question mark(like the word "what&quot So, if "ma" can mean "what?" in Arabic, we may have a ground for the algebra method.

Although, in spite of all this, I should say that, if I did not have other reasons to believe in Quran, I would probably stop believing in Quran just due to >1 problem. Thanks again for your help. I am really grateful. And I will probably put all this in an article format in near future.

Onur

Hati

Salaam,

General Equation
B=boys total share
G=girls
M=mother's share
F =father's share
W=Wife

B=2xG or G = B/2
Consider for example fractional part of the whole

B + G + M + F + W = 1
B + G + 1/6 + 1/6 + 1/8 = 1
B + G 11/24 = 1
B + G = 1-11/24
= 13/24 share of children

B + B/2 = 13/24
3B/2 = 13/24
B = 2/3 x 13/24 = two-thirds of children's share = 13/36. G = B/2 = 13/72

From above equation boys get two-thirds of children's share!

Who will get the 2/3 share of the boys?

Hati