Quran inheritance mistake

Samia

Please clarify...

IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

IF spouse no parents ? do siblings inherit?
husband, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

mmouhammad

Peace Eid,

Your example wife, parents

1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

So you are saying in this case if deceased has siblings, the only purpose their presence will serve is to reduce mothers share to 1/6 thus increasing father's share.
Has siblings; 1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/6*3/4 = 1/8 mother + (1/6+ 2/3)*3/4 = 5/8 father or 15 ratio

Your examples of Kalalah

Fa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalalah with child 412)?

mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children

So here you are giving mother and siblings 1/2; this portion is more than what would both parents get inheriting with children which is 1/3.

Verse 411 and if he has no children so to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
The logic makes the "has no children" the case for asking about presence of siblings, simply because when parents inherit with has children, siblings are not considered.

If has children then - if this statement is true the case ends after completing then clause
To his parents each is 1/6 - mother alone or father alone has no affect on the if condition.
Else if has no children then
If has sibling then
To his mother is 1/6
Else
To his mother is 1/3
End if
End if

If you use the following if then else if cases, the sibling else if case will never be reached because one of the first 2 cases will always be true.

If has children then
To his parents each is 1/6
Else If has no children then
To his mother is 1/3
Else If has siblings then - this case will never be reached
To his mother is 1/6
End If

Your example
mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings

What if mother + sister; under 4176 and has one sister to her is 1/2. So mother 1/6 and sister 1/2. The question is who gets the remainder, is it the mother or is it the sister and why?

The following Questions are for you to consider
Is mother alone a parent or not?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and to his parents each is 1/6 if has children?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and if has no children and being inherited by his parents then to mother is 1/3?
Is it not that part of 411 "but if has siblings then to his mother is 1/6" suggests siblings inherits with parents when deceased has no children?
Doesn't verse 411 meet the 2 conditions, has no children and has siblings?

Union

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

But how much ?

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

Then how you reconcile the contradiction here

Sister will inhereit 1/6 (412)

Sister will inherit 1/2 (4176)

Both are under Kalala condition .There should be an index of difference between the two Kalala conditions .

Thanks.

Samia

But how much ?

How much
411
A- Mother 1/6; father 1/3; siblings get the rest. Mother no father father's share if he was alive goes to the mother, so the mother gets 1/2 and 1/2 goes to the siblings.
B- One sibling 1/6; more they share 1/3; spouse gets the rest

Then how you reconcile the contradiction here

Sister will inhereit 1/6 (412)

Sister will inherit 1/2 (4176)

Both are under Kalala condition .There should be an index of difference between the two Kalala conditions .

Thanks.

Sister in 412 is a sister of kelala who has a spouse. Since spouse of kelala's share is not defined, the spouse gets the rest.
Sister in 4176 is of a kelala who does not have a spouse. If she is the sole heir she gets all. The half is presuming existance of counterpart male/s.

A-We should remember that whenever a female is mentioned, a male counterpart is presumed. No guidance on same gender since it's obvious. No verse on a sole heir beause it's obvious too we cannot give any share to any relative not entitled to the inheritance and thus not mentioned. For example verse 4176 is for siblings only. (his siste gets half) presumes existance of at least one brother. If he has only a sister, she gets the whole inheritance since no eligible heir exists. Shares of siblings in 4176 follow the formulae for children.

B-Another point is that, if the allotted shares are less than the whole, the remainder goes back to the nearest relative.

Relatives according to nearness to the deceased
1st- Children
2nd- Parents
3rd- Spouse
4th- Siblings

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

Provided no children exist
1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala
2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

Siblings of kelala (parentless - childless) always inherit. Siblings of non kelala inherit only in absence of both children and spouse.

Please distribute according to Qur'an...

1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala

parents, sister = ?
mother, sister = ?

father, brother = ?
father, brother, sister = ?

2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

wife, brother 1 - 1/4 wife - 1/6 brother = 7/12 unallocated
husband, brother 1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 brother = 1/3 unallocated

Lastly, no spouse or parents with whom do Al-Kallati's sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 share with?

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Samia

This is a summary of my understanding of the inheritance verses.

411 Non kelala 1st degree heirs Children
Shares of children of mixed gender. The formula for distribution is dependent on the distribution of gender
1m 2m 3m 4m

1f 11 11 11 11

2f 12 11 12 12

3f 21 21 11 21

4f 21 12 21 11 (copied from this post by Nun de plume http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16179.msg169498#msg16949.

Children's share according to the verse is not decided. The get the remainder after the parents and the spouse get their share.

411 Parents 2nd degree heirs
Share according to the whole lot is decided in three cases

there are children
-there are no children and no one else
-there are no children but there are siblings.

Verse 412 Spouses 3rd degree heirs
Two cases
A Non Kelala in presence and absence of children
B Kelala case No children. Share of spouse is not determined. Siblings share is determined Spouse gets the rest.

Verse 4176 Siblings 4th degree heirs
Case of kelala without spouse siblings inherit all, distributed among them according to the distribution of gender (same formula for children).

unknownuser

Peace mmouhammad,

Your example wife, parents

1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/33/4 = 1/4 mother + 2/33/4 = 1/2 father or 12 ratio when no child)

So you are saying in this case if deceased has siblings, the only purpose their presence will serve is to reduce mothers share to 1/6 thus increasing father's share.

Not really, with or without siblings mother to father ratio is 12 in all cases except with children each 1/6.

mother, father
1 - 1/3 mother = 2/3 father

wife, mother, father
1 - 1/4 = 3/4 parents at 12 ratio (1/4 mother + 1/2 father)

husband, mother, father
1 - 1/2 husband = 1/2 parents at 12 ratio (1/6 mother + 1/3 father)

Has siblings; 1 ? 1/4 wife = 3/4 parents (1/6*3/4 = 1/8 mother + (1/6+ 2/3)*3/4 = 5/8 father or 15 ratio

Never comes in play; with siblings and father/spouse, siblings get bounced (not a Kalala case)

Why did multiple
Your examples of Kalalah

Fa-in (ELSE IF) ikhwatun mother share 1/6 consistent when siblings allowed with children (i.e. case of Kalalah with child 412)?

mother, children, siblings (412)
1 ? 1/6 mother ? 1/3 siblings max = 1/2 children

So here you are giving mother and siblings 1/2; this portion is more than what would both parents get inheriting with children which is 1/3.

Different case nothing to do when both parents are alive -- following instructions.

Verse 411 and if he has no children so to his mother is 1/3 but if he has siblings then to his mother is 1/6.
The logic makes the "has no children" the case for asking about presence of siblings, simply because when parents inherit with has children, siblings are not considered.

If has children then - if this statement is true the case ends after completing then clause
To his parents each is 1/6 - mother alone or father alone has no affect on the if condition.
Else if has no children then
If has sibling then
To his mother is 1/6
Else
To his mother is 1/3
End if
End if

If you use the following if then else if cases, the sibling else if case will never be reached because one of the first 2 cases will always be true.

Please post exact verse; logic is straight forward, we can program online calculator later perhaps...lol

411...so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

The last part (fa-in) is separate statement with/without children.

If has children then
To his parents each is 1/6
Else If has no children then
To his mother is 1/3
Else If has siblings then - this case will never be reached
To his mother is 1/6
End If

Programming error.

411...and to his PARENTS, to each one from them the 1/6 from what he left, if for him was a child,
so if was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the 1/3,
so if brethren were for him, so to his mother the 1/6

IF has children THEN
To his parents each is 1/6
ELSE IF has no children AND his parents inherited him THEN
To his mother is 1/3
ELSE IF has siblings THEN
To his mother is 1/6
END IF

Your example
mother, siblings (4176)
1 ? 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings

What if mother + sister; under 4176 and has one sister to her is 1/2. So mother 1/6 and sister 1/2. The question is who gets the remainder, is it the mother or is it the sister and why?

mother + sister {no children, no father, no ikhwatun/brethren thus mother share is variable)

1 - 1/2 sister (4176 Kalala no child) = 1/2 mother

My earlier post...I believe ikhwatun/brethren needs at least one male which he can be accompanied by any number of females/sisters. The same with - men/rijalan/mankind can refer to a male child in the company of many females as in 4176 'Ikhwatan Rijlan Wa Nis'an and not to a single woman or group of women/nisaan.

The following Questions are for you to consider
Is mother alone a parent or not?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and to his parents each is 1/6 if has children?
Doesn't mother alone inherits under 411 and if has no children and being inherited by his parents then to mother is 1/3?
Is it not that part of 411 "but if has siblings then to his mother is 1/6" suggests siblings inherits with parents when deceased has no children?
Doesn't verse 411 meet the 2 conditions, has no children and has siblings?

I've been considering since start of this thread; see above and examples posted to Samia, especially the case of father and any sibling combination.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Samia,

Please distribute according to Qur'an...

1- Parents no spouse Siblings inherit (411) - siblings of non kelala

parents, sister = ?
mother, sister = ?

father, brother = ?
father, brother, sister = ?

Father 1/3; mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (the remainder, since her share was not determined)
Mother 1/6; sister 5/6 (same reason above).

Father 1/3 (2/6); brother gets the rest
Father 1/3, brother and sister get the rest shared equally between them.

2- Spouse no parents Siblings inheit (412) - siblings of kelala

wife, brother 1 - 1/4 wife - 1/6 brother = 7/12 unallocated
husband, brother 1 - 1/2 husband - 1/6 brother = 1/3 unallocated

Share of spouse of kelala is not determined in this verse, but the share of siblings is.
The brother gets 1/6; spouse gets the remainder (5/6).
Brother gets 1/6; husband gets the remainder (5/6).

Lastly, no spouse or parents with whom do Al-Kallati's sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 share with?

As long as there are no legitmate heirs alive, all the inheritance should go to the existing heir. I believe that whenever a female is mentioned, a counter male is presumed existing.

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

Father 1/3; mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (the remainder, since her share was not determined)
Mother 1/6; sister 5/6 (same reason above).

Her share was determined 412 & 4176 and with a father; she gets nothing.

Father 1/3 (2/6); brother gets the rest
Father 1/3, brother and sister get the rest shared equally between them.

I don't see that anywhere in Qur'an, sounds like a ruling by Samia...lol

Share of spouse of kelala is not determined in this verse, but the share of siblings is.
The brother gets 1/6; spouse gets the remainder (5/6).
Brother gets 1/6; husband gets the remainder (5/6).

The main reason this thread was started.

As long as there are no legitmate heirs alive, all the inheritance should go to the existing heir. I believe that whenever a female is mentioned, a counter male is presumed existing.

There is only the mother left as a possibility.

Verse 4176 Siblings 4th degree heirs
Case of kelala without spouse siblings inherit all, distributed among them according to the distribution of gender (same formula for children).

Does not work as with the children; key difference being cannot have two cases with two females. The women 1/2 or 2/3 are alone have to share with someone that being the mother.

1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Peace

Samia

Salam Eid

We disagree on two points

Definition of kelala My understanding is kelala is parentless and childless.
You do not see father when only mother is mentioned. I say this is the rule in the inheritance verses once children are mentioned, it's presumed males and females ahve shares, even when only the female is mentioned. Same with parnts once parents are mentioned, it's presumed both of them have shares, even if it's the mother alone that's mentioned.

Union

How much
411
A- Mother 1/6; father 1/3; siblings get the rest. Mother no father father's share if he was alive goes to the mother, so the mother gets 1/2 and 1/2 goes to the siblings.

Salam Samia .

Which Part of verse 411 , you are talking about

411 ?and to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children. => not applicable

411 ?if he has siblings (Ikhwatun) then to his mother is one sixth. => not applicable .

Then what left for your justification of giving mother 1/6 from 411 ??

B- One sibling 1/6; more they share 1/3; spouse gets the rest

Instead of assuming what is the definition of Kalala first , you should search the evidence of distribution from the verses and only then you can reach to your decision .

412 For you is half of what your wives leave behind if they have no children?.

The above part is more logical and related to the problem . Hence, Husband should have ? .

412? but has a brother or sister, then to each one of them is one sixth,

Hence the sister will get 1/6 .

1-(?+1/6) =1/3 undistributed .

Sister in 412 is a sister of kelala who has a spouse. Since spouse of kelala's share is not defined, the spouse gets the rest.
Sister in 4176 is of a kelala who does not have a spouse. If she is the sole heir she gets all. The half is presuming existance of counterpart male/s.

This is also a pre-determined decision . If you remove your biased understanding of Kalala , and as the case you are talking about siblings+spouse say, Sister + Wife , then more logical distribution will be

412 To them is one quarter of what you leave
behind if you have no child;..

Hence wife =1/4

And sister =1/6 according to 412 Or ? according to 4176 . In both case it doesn?t add up to 01.

Instead why not use Almighty God?s hints to have a clue to differentiate between 1/6 or ? share of sister .

4176 They ask your opinion , say "God decrees in the man or woman being Kalala , if man/human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left,

Hence God?s wisdom is pulling us to the sate of ?no children? for Kalala to have his sister ? . Keeping the same logical observation in mind it will be more safe to think of sister?s share 1/6 incase of Kalala when ?with children? .

Also this conclusion will offer a 100% accurate distribution of share to related to it (add up to 01 , not less than or greater than 01 which happened to be found in your proposal )

A-We should remember that whenever a female is mentioned, a male counterpart is presumed. No guidance on same gender since it's obvious. No verse on a sole heir beause it's obvious too we cannot give any share to any relative not entitled to the inheritance and thus not mentioned. For example verse 4176 is for siblings only. (his siste gets half) presumes existance of at least one brother. If he has only a sister, she gets the whole inheritance since no eligible heir exists. Shares of siblings in 4176 follow the formulae for children.

B-Another point is that, if the allotted shares are less than the whole, the remainder goes back to the nearest relative.

Relatives according to nearness to the deceased
1st- Children
2nd- Parents
3rd- Spouse
4th- Siblings

A- Agree though should not be taken as hard and fast rule .
B- Disagree . Your way of understanding of Kelala time to time will leave some reminder but not the way Eid AbduAllah understood it . A 100% accurate distribution will not be greater than or smaller 01.

Thanks.

Union

Salaam Samia,

Her share was determined 412 & 4176 and with a father; she gets nothing.

I don't see that anywhere in Qur'an, sounds like a ruling by Samia...lol

The main reason this thread was started.

There is only the mother left as a possibility.

Does not work as with the children; key difference being cannot have two cases with two females. The women 1/2 or 2/3 are alone have to share with someone that being the mother.

1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother
2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what he left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
and if they were two, so to them the two thirds from what he left,
and if they were brethren men and women, so to the male equal fortune the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with every thing knowledgeable.

Peace

Salam AbduAllah . So far I didn't see any disorder in your understanding of Kelala . If sister Samia could have brought practical examples for each of his theory as you did everytime , may be something different (if it really exists) could have been realized . I am in the position of such definition of Kelala where all the shares must add up to 01 .

Allah knows the best .

Thanks .

Samia

411 ?if he has siblings (Ikhwatun) then to his mother is one sixth. => not applicable .

Then what left for your justification of giving mother 1/6 from 411 ??

Salaam Union
How is it not applicable when you are just saying it 411 "if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth"?!
If you are asking about the father, I just don't undertand how you read the verse 411
"For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise."

If there are children, 1/6th for each.
If the parents are the only heirs, the mother gets 1/3 (by logic the father gets 2/3, though not explicitely mentioned)
If they are not the only heirs (there are siblings) the mother gets 1/6 (and by analogy the father gets the double, i.e 2/6 = 1/3).

Instead of assuming what is the definition of Kalala first , you should search the evidence of distribution from the verses and only then you can reach to your decision .

The definition of kelala is xtremely important because it will show if someone is eligible to inherit or not. If you understand kelala as only parentless; then you will give a share to siblings when there are children. Shares will still add up to 100% since children do not have a determined percentage of the wealth but get the remaining.
For example
mother, son, dughter, brother.

Your distribution based on your definition of kelala will be
Mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (or 1/6, depending on whichever verse you use 412 or 4176) and children get the rest.
My distribution based on my understanding of kelala will be
Mother 1/6, children get the remainder and siblings get nothing.

Another result of not considering the definition of kelala important is giving the sister 1/6 as you just did, when there's a mother You are giving the sister of a standard deceased person (where 411 should be applicable) the share of sister of kelala (where you are applying 412).
Remember that siblings are mentioned in all three verses, with different defined shares or undefined shares. Unless you know who they are inheriting (kelala or not) and whether they can inherit or not; you cannot determine which verse to apply.

Union

Salaam Union
How is it not applicable when you are just saying it 411 "if he has siblings then to his mother is one sixth"?!
If you are asking about the father, I just don't undertand how you read the verse 411
"For parents, a sixth share of the inheritance to each, if the deceased left children; if no children, and the parents are the (only) heirs, the mother has a third; if the deceased Left brothers (or sisters) the mother has a sixth. (The distribution in all cases ('s) after the payment of legacies and debts. Ye know not whether your parents or your children are nearest to you in benefit. These are settled portions ordained by Allah; and Allah is All-knowing, Al-wise."

If there are children, 1/6th for each.
If the parents are the only heirs, the mother gets 1/3 (by logic the father gets 2/3, though not explicitely mentioned)
If they are not the only heirs (there are siblings) the mother gets 1/6 (and by analogy the father gets the double, i.e 2/6 = 1/3).

Walaikumsalam Wa RahmatuAllah dear Samia .

The case we are dealing with Father + Mother + Sister

Peace Samia,

Please clarify...

IF parents no spouse ? do siblings inherit?
mother, father, sister (which verse 412 or 4176)

And in the verse 411 , the Arabic term ?Ikhwatun? cancels the existence of only sister

Salaam Union, all

"ikhwatun" is plural. It can't be a brother. It can be a brother and a sister, or more than two brothers (minimum definition).

And that?s how it is not applicable for the example we were trying to clarify .

mother, son, dughter, brother.

Your distribution based on your definition of kelala will be
Mother 1/6; sister 1/2 (or 1/6, depending on whichever verse you use 412 or 4176) and children get the rest.

411 .. to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children?.
Mother 1/6

412 ?If a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or
sister, then to each one of them is one
sixth?..
Sister 1/6
Sister1/2 of 4176 is not applicable since this case is without children

Children is rest 1-(1/6+1/6) = 2/3 (FM =11 ratio)

Is it not simple , convenient and logical to follow using verse by verse ?

My distribution based on my understanding of kelala will be
Mother 1/6, children get the remainder and siblings get nothing.

Your distribution has a good effect of preconception of Kalala and hence not convenient to a casual reader to understand its definition from Qur?an as it represents . As I told you in this regard

Salam Samia .

Instead why not use Almighty God?s hints to have a clue to differentiate between 1/6 or ? share of sister .

4176 They ask your opinion , say "God decrees in the man or woman being Kalala , if man/human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left,

Hence God?s wisdom is pulling us condition of ?no children? for Kalala to have his sister ? . Keeping the same logical observation in mind it will be more safe to think of sister?s share 1/6 incase of Kalala when ?with children? .

Also this conclusion will offer a 100% accurate distribution of share to related to it (add up to 01 , not less than or greater than 01 which happened to be found in your proposal )

Another result of not considering the definition of kelala important is giving the sister 1/6 as you just did, when there's a mother You are giving the sister of a standard deceased person (where 411 should be applicable) the share of sister of kelala (where you are applying 412).
Remember that siblings are mentioned in all three verses, with different defined shares or undefined shares. Unless you know who they are inheriting (kelala or not) and whether they can inherit or not; you cannot determine which verse to apply.

As we found in the verse

411 ?if he has siblings (Ikhwatun) then to his mother is one sixth.

Which rendering rationally that if siblings are getting shares under Kelala condition , there is a valid possibility of mother?s share simultaneously . In other word mother does exist for a deceased Kalala person . Please try to run each and every possible share covering this phenomenon and you will see no disorder .

Therefore , If Mother + Sister is the case , it can be a Kealal case

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left,..

Sister = ? and Mother =1/2

Thanks .

Samia

And in the verse 411 , the Arabic term ?Ikhwatun? cancels the existence of only sister
And that?s how it is not applicable for the example we were trying to clarify .

Salaam Union
Regarding my post you quoted. I later clarified my mistake here

Salaam Eid
I know where you are going ;D. My response was based on an isolated word not in a context. This is exactly like "awlaad" or "walad" in verse 411. It could be any number or gender of children. But if you ask me what "awlaad" is, I will answer the same way I answered for "ikhwatun"

So ikhwatun and awlaadukum are bothe plurals "linguistically", but in the context, it's any number from one, any gender.

411 .. to his parents each one of them one sixth of what is inherited if he has children?.
Mother 1/6

412 ?If a man or a woman has no one, but has a brother or
sister, then to each one of them is one
sixth?..
Sister 1/6
Sister1/2 of 4176 is not applicable since this case is without children

Children is rest 1-(1/6+1/6) = 2/3 (FM =11 ratio)

Is it not simple , convenient and logical to follow using verse by verse ?

Isn't this what I expected to be your distribution?
You are using 411 for mother of a deceased who is not kelala; then you are using the share for a sister in 412 for a deceased who is a kelala. Tell me is your deceased a kelala or not? Because he/she cannot be both.
Maybe it is simple, convenient (no need to think too much) but definitely not logical using any verse. This is why I said it's important to decide what the deceased is to see who inherits and who does not, and this calls for a correct definition of kelala.

Your distribution has a good effect of preconception of Kalala and hence not convenient to a casual reader to understand its definition from Qur?an as it represents

No one can understand any definition of kelala from a distribution of wealth. It's the other way rund one should know the efinition then they will understand the distribution.

As we found in the verse

411 ?if he has siblings (Ikhwatun) then to his mother is one sixth.

Which rendering rationally that if siblings are getting shares under Kelala condition , there is a valid possibility of mother?s share simultaneously . In other word mother does exist for a deceased Kalala person . Please try to run each and every possible share covering this phenomenon and you will see no disorder .

Therefore , If Mother + Sister is the case , it can be a Kealal case

Verse 411 never mentions a kelala. From the beginning it's speaking of a standard deceased. Otherwise, you are making all deceased kelala, since the kelala is mentioned in the other two verses.

It's also the only verse mentioning shares of children and parents.
The other two verses mention shares of spouses and shares of siblings (as well as 411)
Doesn't this tell you something?

Where kelala is mentioned, parents and children are not (412; 4176)
Where parents and children are mentioned, kelala is not (411)

Isn't it so simple, convenient and logical to conclude from this that a kelala is parentless and childless?

4176
They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child, and for him a sister, so for her half what he left,..

Sister = ? and Mother =1/2

Where do you read "mother" in 4176? Why not a father or both parents?
Why are you giving the "alleged mother" half? Where does the mother gets a half any way?
We already have the case of parents with and without children; and with siblings (411). None of them gives the mother a half.
Moreover, in the same verse (4176), what if the siblings were more than three? (if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having the share of the two females)? how to distribute two unknowns?

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

You are using 411 for mother of a deceased who is not kelala; then you are using the share for a sister in 412 for a deceased who is a kelala. Tell me is your deceased a kelala or not? Because he/she cannot be both.

412 Kallatan (i.e. loner) no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati (i.e. the loner) no father, no spouse, no child

Isn't it so simple, convenient and logical to conclude from this that a kelala is parentless and childless?

if parent-less and childless, sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 in 4176 never comes in play without contradiction.

Where do you read "mother" in 4176? Why not a father or both parents?

Father cannot enter 4176 with siblings and would contradict

if parents, mother 1/3 (411) + 2/3 two sisters = 0 father
if father + brother unknown how to distribute
if father + brethren/Ikhwatun mixed unknown how to distribute or what amount to give the father

Spouse cannot enter 4176 with siblings and would contradict

if husband 1/2 + 2/3 two sisters = 1 1/6 too much

2 sisters = 2/3
Why are you giving the "alleged mother" half? Where does the mother gets a half any way?

It says 1/2 one sister and 2/3 two sisters, they have to share with someone and only the mother can enter the verse without contradiction -- no child, no father, if brethren (i.e. at least a male/brother then fixed at 1/6 else share is variable).

1+ brother, mother 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 brother/s

1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother

2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

We already have the case of parents with and without children; and with siblings (411). None of them gives the mother a half.
Moreover, in the same verse (4176), what if the siblings were more than three? (if there are brothers and sisters, (they share), the male having the share of the two females)? how to distribute two unknowns?

Not two unknowns, it's a ratio of 12 each male gets twice that of a female 2f = m or f = 1/2m

Cannot use ratios as with children due to the word "fawqa" is missing.

Simply follow the fa-in/wa-in switch case ELSE IF AND IF logic...

he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
Fa?in ELSE IF they are women Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left/M Taraka,
Wa ?In AND IF she was one, so for her the half
and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what left/Mimm Taraka, if for him was a child
Fa?in ELSE IF was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third,
Fa?in ELSE IF brethren/Ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth

and for you half what left/M Taraka your wives/Azwjukum, if is not for them a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for them a child, so for you the quarter from what they left/Mimm Tarakna from after a bequest/will
and for them the quarter from what you left/Mimm Taraktum, if was not for you a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for you a child, so for them the eight from what you left/Mimm Taraktum from after a bequest/will
Wa ?In AND IF was a Rajulun/man to be inherited Kallatan or a woman-spouse/'AwAmra'atun, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died/'Ini Amru'uun Halaka, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what left/M Taraka, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them (F) the two thirds from what left/Mimm Taraka,
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women
so to the male equal luck the two females,
God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

Peace

Samia

Salaam Samia,

412 Kallatan (i.e. loner) no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati (i.e. the loner) no father, no spouse, no child

Salaam Eid

"kalalatan" in the verse is not an indefinite noun. The verb preceding it shows it's a condition . The sentence means if a man - or a oman- being inherited when they are kalala/ in the condition that they are kalala. Moreover, what rule do you follow to give different meanings to a word just because it's definite or indefinite?

if parent-less and childless, sister 1/2 or two sisters 2/3 in 4176 never comes in play without contradiction.

As I explained my understanding before, the mere mention of just a female does not rule out the existance of the male.

Father cannot enter 4176 with siblings and would contradict

if parents, mother 1/3 (411) + 2/3 two sisters = 0 father
if father + brother unknown how to distribute
if father + brethren/Ikhwatun mixed unknown how to distribute or what amount to give the father

Spouse cannot enter 4176 with siblings and would contradict

if husband 1/2 + 2/3 two sisters = 1 1/6 too much

Again you are mixing 411 and 4176; kalala and standard. You better define the status of your deceased (kalala v standard) to decide who will inherit and thus which verse/rule to apply. Specially when dealing with siblings and spouses, as they inherit/may inherit both kinds.
How about mother + brother? Two unknowns.

Let's look at 411
If he/she has siblings, his mother gets 1/6.
In this case we do not have children, and according to you the father is not there. We are left with mother and siblings (and maybe a spouse).
Question what's the difference between the deceased in 411 and in 4176? What makes the latter kalala but not the former? Why does the mother here gets 1/6 and in 4176 you give her 1/2?

It says 1/2 one sister and 2/3 two sisters, they have to share with someone and only the mother can enter the verse without contradiction -- no child, no father, if brethren (i.e. at least a male/brother then fixed at 1/6 else share is variable).

1+ brother, mother 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 brother/s

1 sister, mother 1 - 1/2 sister = 1/2 mother

2+ sisters, mother 1 - 2/3 sisters = 1/3 mother

Same problem mixing kalala and non kalala verses/rules.
Why are you going back to 411 to search for the mother's share? 4176 says and he inherits her. What's your understanding of this? And according to this verse, mother (if she applies here) and brother are both unknowns.

Cannot use ratios as with children due to the word "fawqa" is missing.

I can't believe you are saying this! The meaning is put in other words (if they were siblings, men and women). Aren't these above two? We already have one F 1+ males; two F 1 or 3+ males...then "men and women" is 3+ females and 3+ males.

Side question what's the purpose of telling us about kalala if he/she has a mother, a spouse, siblings and children? What is the difference between kalala and non kalala then?

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

"kalalatan" in the verse is not an indefinite noun. The verb preceding it shows it's a condition . The sentence means if a man - or a oman- being inherited when they are kalala/ in the condition that they are kalala. Moreover, what rule do you follow to give different meanings to a word just because it's definite or indefinite?

Has to fit each possibility without contradiction and this works with every combination

As I explained my understanding before, the mere mention of just a female does not rule out the existance of the male.
Again you are mixing 411 and 4176; kalala and standard. You better define the status of your deceased (kalala v standard) to decide who will inherit and thus which verse/rule to apply. Specially when dealing with siblings and spouses, as they inherit/may inherit both kinds.
How about mother + brother? Two unknowns.

This is why the brother's share was not mentioned in 411 and left variable.

mother, brother 1 - 1/6 mother (411) = 5/6 brother

Let's look at 411
If he/she has siblings, his mother gets 1/6.
In this case we do not have children, and according to you the father is not there. We are left with mother and siblings (and maybe a spouse).
Question what's the difference between the deceased in 411 and in 4176? What makes the latter kalala but not the former? Why does the mother here gets 1/6 and in 4176 you give her 1/2?
Same problem mixing kalala and non kalala verses/rules.
Why are you going back to 411 to search for the mother's share? 4176 says and he inherits her. What's your understanding of this? And according to this verse, mother (if she applies here) and brother are both unknowns.

Samia, please look at the logic closely; this is very detailed especially the fa-in SWITCH CASE ELSE IF...

To CHILDREN (regardless who else is alive; this is to distribute amongst children only)...

he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
Fa?in ELSE IF they are women Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left,
Wa ?In AND IF she was one, so for her the half

btw, nun de plume (know him well...lol) had wrong diagram; should be thus...

1m 2m 3m

1f (she gets 1/2 regardless #of males)

2f (each male gets twice each female)

3f (they get 2/3 regardless #of males)

To PARENTS (nothing to do with allocating to siblings yet) check IF true and read on......

and to his parents, to each one from them the sixth from what left/Mimm Taraka, if for him was a child
Fa?in ELSE IF was not for him a child, and his parents inherited him, so to his mother the third,
Fa?in ELSE IF brethren/Ikhwatun were for him, so to his mother the sixth

To Spouses...

and for you half what left your wives/Azwjukum, if is not for them a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for them a child, so for you the quarter from what they left from after a bequest/will
and for them the quarter from what you left, if was not for you a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF was for you a child, so for them the eight from what you left from after a bequest/will

Kalla (no spouse, no father) with CHILD

Wa ?In AND IF was a Rajulun/man to be inherited Kallatan or a woman, and for him a brother, or a sister, so for each one from them the sixth,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were more than that, so they are partners in the third

They ask your clarification, say "God decrees in Al-Kallati, if human died, not for him a child,
and for him a sister, so for her half what left, and he inherits her if was not for her a child,
Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them (F) the two thirds from what left,
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women
so to the male equal luck the two females,

God clarifies for you that you (not) be misguided, and God is with everything knowledgeable.

I can't believe you are saying this! The meaning is put in other words (if they were siblings, men and women). Aren't these above two? We already have one F 1+ males; two F 1 or 3+ males...then "men and women" is 3+ females and 3+ males.

and for him a sister, so for her 1/2 (not accompanied by a male not brethren men and women)
Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them the 2/3 (no males, as above)
so to the male equal luck the two females,

We cannot do ratios for siblings as with children their are two cases with two females.

2 sisters, 1+ brothers

Do we give the two sisters 2/3 or use "to the male equal share the two females?

Side question what's the purpose of telling us about kalala if he/she has a mother, a spouse, siblings and children? What is the difference between kalala and non kalala then?

412 Kallatan no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati no father, no spouse (no child stated in verse)

Peace

Samia

This is why the brother's share was not mentioned in 411 and left variable.

mother, brother 1 - 1/6 mother (411) = 5/6 brother

Salaam Eid

How did you decide that "" in 411 is a brother and not a sister or a group of sisters and brothers? What about the in 4176? Do they get 5/6th?

Samia, please look at the logic closely; this is very detailed especially the fa-in SWITCH CASE ELSE IF...

To CHILDREN (regardless who else is alive; this is to distribute amongst children only)...

he directs you God in your CHILDREN
to the male equal luck the two females
Fa?in ELSE IF they are women Fawqa/above two, so for them two thirds what left,
Wa ?In AND IF she was one, so for her the half

and he inherits her if she left no child. If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if they were siblings, men and women, the male will have the share of the two females. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things. (4176)

The first "Fa'in" cannot be repeated in place of "wa'in" that follows, linguistically and meaning-wise.

btw, nun de plume (know him well...lol) had wrong diagram; should be thus...

1m 2m 3m

1f (she gets 1/2 regardless #of males)

2f (each male gets twice each female)

3f (they get 2/3 regardless #of males)

What do you mean by "regardless of males"? Regardless of whether there are males or not or regardless their number?
BTW, Nun de plume was not putting numbers, but reatios
And the verse does not say "each male gets twice each female", but "to the male a share similar of that of the two females. There's a difference.

so to the male equal luck the two females,

We cannot do ratios for siblings as with children their are two cases with two females.

2 sisters, 1+ brothers

This is why the verse 4176, unlike 411 says If they were siblings men and women, indicating their number as 3+ men and 3+ women at least.
Thus the distribution for a kalala without a wife (4176) is as follows
1F (and a male opposite to her) 1/2 and 1/2
2F (and one or more male) 2/3 1/3
+2F and +2 M to the male the share of the two females.
But as long as we understand that there's a mother here, we will have contradictions with verse 411 which sets the mother's share at 1/6 in absence of children and presence of siblings.
We should try to agree on the definition of kalala, otherwise any discussion is pointless.

412 Kallatan no father, no spouse
4176 Al-Kallati no father, no spouse (no child stated in verse)

giveup

unknownuser

Salaam Samia,

How did you decide that "" in 411 is a brother and not a sister or a group of sisters and brothers? What about the in 4176? Do they get 5/6th?

Brethren at least one male by himself or 1+ males with any number of females.

1+ brothers, mother 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 brother
2+ siblings mixed, mother 1 - 1/6 mother = 5/6 siblings (distribute 12 ration sisters to brothers)

and he inherits her if she left no child. If there are two sisters, they shall have two-thirds of the inheritance (between them) if they were siblings, men and women, the male will have the share of the two females. Thus doth Allah make clear to you (His law), lest ye err. And Allah hath knowledge of all things. (4176)

The first "Fa'in" cannot be repeated in place of "wa'in" that follows, linguistically and meaning-wise.
What do you mean by "regardless of males"? Regardless of whether there are males or not or regardless their number?

You replied to wrong verse (I post 411 above also did not sleep all night either...lol) and it's regardless of their number....

BTW, Nun de plume was not putting numbers, but reatios
And the verse does not say "each male gets twice each female", but "to the male a share similar of that of the two females. There's a difference.

This is why the verse 4176, unlike 411 says If they were siblings men and women, indicating their number as 3+ men and 3+ women at least.
Thus the distribution for a kalala without a wife (4176) is as follows
1F (and a male opposite to her) 1/2 and 1/2
2F (and one or more male) 2/3 1/3
+2F and +2 M to the male the share of the two females.
But as long as we understand that there's a mother here, we will have contradictions with verse 411 which sets the mother's share at 1/6 in absence of children and presence of siblings.
We should try to agree on the definition of kalala, otherwise any discussion is pointless. giveup

No, don't give up now and let's stay with 4176 otherwise we'll be all over the place.

You do not consider any of these combinations below as brethren men and women?

1 sister, 1 brother
1 sister, 2+ brothers

2 sisters, brother
2 sisters, 2+ brothers

Your argument is 4176 is only for siblings; therefore, no parents, no spouse, and no children (stated in the verse);
Here are all the possibilities; please let me know if this looks correct to you...

1 sister, 1 brother so for her 1/2, 1/2
1 sister, 2+ brothers so for her 1/2, 1/2

2 sisters, brother Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them the 2/3, 1/3
2 sisters, 2+ brothers Fa?in ELSE IF they were two, so to them the 2/3, 1/3

brother, 3+ sisters
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women so to the male equal luck the two females

2+ brothers, 3+ sisters
Wa ?In AND IF they were brethren men and women so to the male equal luck the two females

Peace