Virgin Birth of Isa
-
There is a rare biological anomaly whereby there are to embryos or the previous stage in a pregnancy, but only one (a girl's) developa and the other embryo is embedded in the feminine organs of the girl, developing later when she is a grown up as it it was her own child. In fact it is a brother or a sister. This fenomenon has a name but I do not tremember it.
-
There is a rare biological anomaly whereby there are to embryos or the previous stage in a pregnancy, but only one (a girl's) developa and the other embryo is embedded in the feminine organs of the girl, developing later when she is a grown up as it it was her own child. In fact it is a brother or a sister. This fenomenon has a name but I do not tremember it.
"Fetus in fetu" and it's not a very nice case. Jesus's birth was arguably a very "wanted" scenario, and this is far, far far from the case. And this condition doesn't produce anything but a vegetable twin.
In addition, if Mary had that condition she would have to be in medical care and would be far and away from normal. Not only that, the "pregnancy" would be visible for years, not a sudden onset as seen in the quran.
-
There is a rare biological anomaly whereby there are to embryos or the previous stage in a pregnancy, but only one (a girl's) developa and the other embryo is embedded in the feminine organs of the girl, developing later when she is a grown up as it it was her own child. In fact it is a brother or a sister. This fenomenon has a name but I do not tremember it.
Salaam all,
I think you mean the fetus in fetus phenomenon, a sort of teratoma. The fetus inside never finishes its development and is already dead at delivery. It may remain undiagnosed years and years.More interesting is this verse about Mary's mother and Mary herself
"So when she delivered she said ?My Lord, I have delivered a female,? and God is fully aware of what she delivered, ?And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil.? (3; 37) [There is a comparative in the arabic text I would have translated it and God is more aware of what she delivered)How can God be more aware of the gender of the newborn than its mother ? Was there a doubt? In the eyes of Mary's mother, no, the baby was a female. In the divine plan, not exactly and God knows better what it was.
Paraphrasing huruf, there is a rare biological anomaly called mosaic in which, without much details, there coexist in the same body two (or more) types of cells, for example (may be in the case of Mary) cells XY and others XX. It is not scientifically impossible to have a genotypic hermaphrodism with a feminine phenotype. Ovaries and tests may have coexisted (a case was described in 1976, although highly pathological) and "something" caused an X cell from the ovaries and a Y cell from the testes to fuse immaculada conceptiou!
I'd like to finish with what one of the ancients said "there is no benefit from knowing it and there is no harm from ignoring it" ;D
Ang God knows best,
Salaam
sun
-
That was just one instance of the possibility that it is was indeed a virgin birth without it being necessarily "unnatural". The fact that we may not know how it happened doesn't make it impossible to happen in a perfectly exlaniable way even if it is beyond our cpacity to come to know it.
Here is another possibility.
http//www.errantyears.com/1997/may97/0220.html
Salaam
-
How do medical anomalies prove the existance of a healthy, miracle worker? Jesus, quranically is clearly a very able person and none of these people would have either the respect from being 'normal' or the mobility to do anything like he did.
When you bring a true virgin birth instead of seriously damaging anomalies, I'll eat my words.
The fact that we may not know how it happened doesn't make it impossible to happen in a perfectly exlaniable way even if it is beyond our cpacity to come to know it.
Evidence then conclusion. Not the other way round.
-
Salaam decepticus, all
The case of hermaphrodism (2 DNA of different genders) or chimera (...of the same gender) carried by one human does not result in seperate entities in anyway.
Besides, we have a detailed description of Mary's labour. That was not an anomali.The phrase "and the male is not like the female" is "said" by God, as it is meaningless if said by her mother The construction (X is not like Y) implies that X is better than Y, or more intense according to the context, and this is the explanation of "God knows best" (I prefer the superlative). She wanted a male and He gave her a female because He knows this is better.
-
The phrase "and the male is not like the female" is "said" by God, as it is meaningless if said by her mother The construction (X is not like Y) implies that X is better than Y, or more intense according to the context, and this is the explanation of "God knows best" (I prefer the superlative). She wanted a male and He gave her a female because He knows this is better.
Salaam,
OK, Samia, using the comparative or the superlative is not very important. But- there is no evidence that "and the male is not like the female" are God's words
- and yes, there is no evidence that "God knows best" are God's words could'nt we read and not ?
- nothing in the Qur'an tells us that the mother wanted a male
- what you propose does not explain the "need" for the affirmation that "God knows best" what she gave birth to.
As I said before,
BTW, I like very much reading your posts bravo
Peace
-
How do medical anomalies prove the existance of a healthy, miracle worker? Jesus, quranically is clearly a very able person and none of these people would have either the respect from being 'normal' or the mobility to do anything like he did.
When you bring a true virgin birth instead of seriously damaging anomalies, I'll eat my words.
Evidence then conclusion. Not the other way round.
I thought it was plain in my post that I was not concluding nor affirming anything, just ezploring possibilities of how things can happen and fit the data. As to this particular question of how Isa's was a virgin birth or not, I really do not mind any way it was nor I am hung on miracles. I do not know whether some people need mircales. I don't. That is, what I find is that everything and anything is a miracle, being is a miracle. Beside that I don't know what can be more impressive.
I haven't understood what you want to say about anomalies not being fit for Isa. Well, I don't know why an anomaly would be fit for anybody, but they do ocurr, and I do not think that those in whom they occur are in any way lesser than others, although for them must add difficulty to living. I do not find it an argument as to the why they wouldn't be good enough for Mariams virginity when giving birth to Isa. Would Marim be less Mariam and Isa less Isa?
Salaam
-
I haven't understood what you want to say about anomalies not being fit for Isa. Well, I don't know why an anomaly would be fit for anybody, but they do ocurr, and I do not think that those in whom they occur are in any way lesser than others, although for them must add difficulty to living. I do not find it an argument as to the why they wouldn't be good enough for Mariams virginity when giving birth to Isa. Would Marim be less Mariam and Isa less Isa?
It's generally very hard to be a prophet/ess when you can't walk, talk or indeed think.
-
It's generally very hard to be a prophet/ess when you can't walk, talk or indeed think.
Really, I don't know what you are talking about now, whether the fetum in fetu, the parthenogenesis xx or the parthenogenesis xy or what. I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
So you know those phenomena I recalled and you think they are not enough to explain the virgin birth of Isa. Fine, and fine too, if you enjoy playing hide and seek with peoples lack of sufficient knowledge or accurate expression of what they intended to say (in this case me), and thank you for letting me have a guess at what you may have been really meaning. And if you think that further unmysterying of the phenomena is not required, fine also. I think by now I can get by with my ability to suspect what you might want to indicate, which is, I reckon, that all several possible ways of virgin birth pointed at in my messages result in monsters unable to move or talk or... anything else they are unable to? or may is it too early to disclose it?
Salaam
-
Really, I don't know what you are talking about now, whether the fetum in fetu, the parthenogenesis xx or the parthenogenesis xy or what. I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
So you know those phenomena I recalled and you think they are not enough to explain the virgin birth of Isa. Fine, and fine too, if you enjoy playing hide and seek with peoples lack of sufficient knowledge or accurate expression of what they intended to say (in this case me), and thank you for letting me have a guess at what you may have been meaning really meaning. And if you think that further unmysterying of the phenomena is not required, fine also. I think by now I can get by with my ability to suspect what you might want to indicate, which is, I reckon, that all several possible ways of virgin birth pointed at in my messages result in monsters unable to move or talk or... anything else they are unable to? or may is it too early to disclose it?
Salaam
Well it has to be 'fetus in fetu' because I can't see how a single person both male and female is the same thing as a person capable of virgin birth. And the fetus in fetu is just a vegetable. Who's playing hide and seek here? There's only one real case of 'virgin birth' and that has to be fetus in fetu for the simple reasons I said here.
I said, at least I attempted to say, from the begining that I was just pointing to the possibility of some way for things to happen of which we may not be aware, but that if we did, it might after all be explainable, since there is no guarantee that at the moment we know absolutely everything there is to know about human or animal species or anything else. Phenomena that were unknown upon a time, are known and explained at another time.
I'm pretty sure you have heard of "Russel's teapot"? So when someone can bring proof of a virgin birth which is healthy and capable of being a prophet then we can change our view within the bounds of sanity. Anything else is just crackpottery.
http//news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2002/09/0925_020925_virginshark.html
http//www.metro.co.uk/news/article.html?in_article_id=50123&in_page_id=34 (follow up)There's a shark doing it through parthenogenesis. And it became a fully functional, normal creature. In fact it's quite common in the animal world. But that hasn't happened for humans, nobody has demonstrated a single virgin birth yet.
What I don't understand is why this kind of thread exists, there are bigger problems than whether a man named Jesus 2000 years ago had a father or not, and it seems that this kind of thread should exist in an out of the ordinary situation (i.e. if someone did have a virgin birth) not in this kind of time where there is no priori (aside from Christian and derived belief without evidence) for thinking Jesus was anything but a normal man with a father.
-
What I don't understand is why this kind of thread exists, there are bigger problems than whether a man named Jesus 2000 years ago had a father or not, and it seems that this kind of thread should exist in an out of the ordinary situation (i.e. if someone did have a virgin birth) not in this kind of time where there is no priori (aside from Christian and derived belief without evidence) for thinking Jesus was anything but a normal man with a father.
Peace Br. OPF,
Not too elaborative a question but
1921 - He said "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for mankind and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained." (Free Minds)
How do you think that God made Jesus, Son of Mary a sign for mankind?
-
Peace Br. OPF,
Not too elaborative a question but
1921 - He said "It is such that your Lord has said, it is easy for Me. And We shall make him a sign for mankind and a mercy from Us. It is a matter already ordained." (Free Minds)
How do you think that God made Jesus, Son of Mary a sign for mankind?
Do read further on in the surah. Jesus was an amazing person, simple as that based on what he did when he was alive and capable. On the other hand there is no logical way an unverifiable virgin birth could be a "sign for mankind" and if it is a "mercy from God" then that's too abstract to even notice.
-
Do read further on in the surah. Jesus was an amazing person, simple as that based on what he did when he was alive and capable. On the other hand there is no logical way an unverifiable virgin birth could be a "sign for mankind" and if it is a "mercy from God" then that's too abstract to even notice.
Meh... nothing special that the other prophets didn't do. Any specific sign that you are talking about which made him "an amazing person"?
-
Peace Sharp001,
2164 Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.
The qur'an is chock full of signs for mankind. What's so amazing about, ships, for instance? And who said something had to be amazing to be a sign? How does one quantify whether or not something is worthy of being a sign?
If you look closely enough, can you find some signs for mankind within the body of an ant?
peace
-
Peace Sharp001,
2164 Surely, in the creation of heavens and earth, and the differences between night and day, and the ships that sail in the sea for the benefit of mankind, and what God has sent down of water from the sky so He brings the earth back to life after it had died, and He sent forth from it every creature, and the movement of the winds and the clouds that have been designated between the earth and the sky are signs for a people that understand.
The qur'an is chock full of signs for mankind. What's so amazing about, ships, for instance? And who said something had to be amazing to be a sign? How does one quantify whether or not something is worthy of being a sign?
If you look closely enough, can you find some signs for mankind within the body of an ant?
peace
Peace to you as well, Tay
Ha... Very, very pertinent question. Honestly speaking, what sign do you see in any of them?
(1) Creation of heavens and earth? Big Whoop... So what, a Big Bang initiated the universe which has evolved and expanded over millions of years. The Earth, along with other planets were formed. It cooled down, and gave rise to conditions suitable for origin of life which has evolved over millions of year to what we see today. Very natural, real and logical...
(2) Night and Day? Rotation of the earth, what else...
(3) Ships sailing in the sea? Like you said, nothing extraordinary, just an observational phenomenon...
(4) Water from the sky bringing earth back to life? Over dramatic, just the water cycle doing its job...
(5) Creatures from the earth? Evolved through natural selection and random gene pool phenomenon...
(6) Movement of the winds? Due to air flowing from High Pressure to Low Pressure, natural phenomenon again...
(7) Clouds? Formed from condensation of humid air... nothing fancy about that as well...Signs for mankind, you say? Of what, may I ask? Existence of God? Objectively speaking, if one doesn't have the preconceived conclusion of God in mind, can you please tell me honestly whether you or any rational/logical/practical person will acknowledge them as anything other than phenomenon of natural processes? For that matter, what sign did you find within the body of an ant? Probably not more signs than what you find in a virus or bacteria under a microscope...
-
In fact it's quite common in the animal world. But that hasn't happened for humans, nobody has demonstrated a single virgin birth yet.
It depends on how you understand the story of Isa, but were anyone then and there confronted with a "virgin pregnancy", they wouldn't have stood a chance of being believed and therefore would have looked for a father. And what was the case then and what is the case now and has been as far as we can guess is exactly the same. So we don't know, but if there was such a case or cases, those affected would take good care to make it pass as something else, because the price to pay for a thing like that is just too much. Why spend your life trying to state something nobody will ever believe and believe istead that you are having some kettle like the one you mention and on top of it that you are traying to cover for something, and all that for what? Indeed animals do not have that problem vis a vis humans.
Teh virgin birth may be a spiritual allegory and then its meaning is clear, or it may be, or may not be, as well as a spiritual allegory, a physical fact, but this is not as clear. There are people with six fingers and other anomalies and survive. Children with two heads, are born too, and, indeed, they do not survive. I am not going to afirm, and I haven't done that in this thread, that a certain thing exists, but I am not going to say that it doesn't, it hasn't and it never will, specially when there are many factors that if it did would contribute to its not being known ever or admitted.
Salaam
