Virgin Birth of Isa

unknownuser

You see Jesus' specialties in 5110 and 347+.

Peace to you as well, Tay

Ha... Very, very pertinent question. Honestly speaking, what sign do you see in any of them?

(1) Creation of heavens and earth? Big Whoop... So what, a Big Bang initiated the universe which has evolved and expanded over millions of years. The Earth, along with other planets were formed. It cooled down, and gave rise to conditions suitable for origin of life which has evolved over millions of year to what we see today. Very natural, real and logical...
(2) Night and Day? Rotation of the earth, what else...
(3) Ships sailing in the sea? Like you said, nothing extraordinary, just an observational phenomenon...
(4) Water from the sky bringing earth back to life? Over dramatic, just the water cycle doing its job...
(5) Creatures from the earth? Evolved through natural selection and random gene pool phenomenon...
(6) Movement of the winds? Due to air flowing from High Pressure to Low Pressure, natural phenomenon again...
(7) Clouds? Formed from condensation of humid air... nothing fancy about that as well...

Signs for mankind, you say? Of what, may I ask? Existence of God? Objectively speaking, if one doesn't have the preconceived conclusion of God in mind, can you please tell me honestly whether you or any rational/logical/practical person will acknowledge them as anything other than phenomenon of natural processes? For that matter, what sign did you find within the body of an ant? Probably not more signs than what you find in a virus or bacteria under a microscope...

For the bold - that isn't true. The study of physics, mostly in the last century showed that our universe is very fine tuned and as luck would have had it, our locality is the perfect region for life (well, duh, it has to be). Now there are many attempts at a godless world view but they are junk science and unverifiable. Just look at the 'many worlds interpretation' of quantum mechanics, most of these border on crackpottery. One prominent physicist suggests that the big-bang is a remnant of an earlier universe which underwent a crunch, again a completely unverifiable scenario. Every such attempt to explain why our universe is tuned is generally bad science. For us, it should be a reassurance, considering nothing in the quran is out of line with what is found.

Again, on the bold text, some people who have been objective and also had contact with the quran have also converted. They are peppered across "Islam is true" sites all over. Here's a rather good one. So yes, you can be objective and end up believing in god and even the quran. Considering both of us, or me at least, are 100% laymen, how can you really just give a set of 10 points taken from the quran and dismiss them by giving the general theory behind them? Of course if you were looking for miracles you would be out of luck but the quran is talking about signs, not miracles.

(1) - Can you explain why the fine structure constant has the value it has? Do you know the sheer odds in play for our existence and continued survival? Everything around Earth is more or less tuned for human life, the sun's emission spectrum is concentrated in the visible light region. It's all anthropic reasoning here.
(2) - There is slightly more to it than that. We are at the perfect distance from the sun for human life and the elliptical orbit + off centre rotation brings in more effects like the seasons and so on, all pretty important for the life around us, and us included.
(3) - How about 5533?
(4) - Very quick dismissal again. Can you explain the whole dynamics behind the water cycle and can you explain exactly how it works and then go on to say it's not special? I'd like to see you try.
(5) - I'm not even going to bother...
(6) - Why aren't all our winds going at 300mph like on some of Jupiter's moons? ;D
(7) - See (4). And also, clouds are very detailed in the quran. See for instance this link. I don't think that Muhammad the goat herder or whatever could have had access to equipment allowing him to look up there very easily.

unknownuser

Teh virgin birth may be a spiritual allegory and then its meaning is clear, or it may be, or may not be, as well as a spiritual allegory, a physical fact, but this is not as clear. There are people with six fingers and other anomalies and survive. Children with two heads, are born too, and, indeed, they do not survive. I am not going to afirm, and I haven't done that in this thread, that a certain thing exists, but I am not going to say that it doesn't, it hasn't and it never will, specially when there are many factors that if it did would contribute to its not being known ever or admitted.

Salaam

The virgin birth may also be a fraud perpetuated by "miracle" believers who use faith as their only backing and until there is evidence, I think that's what I'll go with. The quran does not support a virgin birth, and that is plain to see unless you wish to say that adam was also a single man and from a long line of incestuous relations did we come. Personally I prefer to believe in more realistic scenarios.

huruf

I like the spiritual meaning of the allegory of virgin giving birth, it says plenty. For the rest I do not particularly care one way or the other. I do not find factual virginity a virtue or a lack of it. But if there is such thing in nature, of course, I have nothign against knowing it, and I keep that and many other possibilities in many other fields open, particularly since independently of the qur'an there are in history and traditions mentions of such things, which in turn may also be allegorical or not. There are other monstruosities and anomalies recorded in traditions. May again be allegories, may be buried events transmited as stories modified or not, but I keep the door open to learn more on their origin. For the rest, I suppose that each of us opts for what speaks more bountifully to his or her spirit. The virgin is an archetype, a very interesting one.

Would add, that also anomalies obey to God and are because of His command.

Salaam

Sharp001

You see Jesus' specialties in 5110 and 347+.

Again, considering the metaphorical nature of the specialities, nothing special about him which would warrant him to be more of a sign than any other prophets and messengers.

For the bold - that isn't true. The study of physics, mostly in the last century showed that our universe is very fine tuned and as luck would have had it, our locality is the perfect region for life (well, duh, it has to be). Now there are many attempts at a godless world view but they are junk science and unverifiable. Just look at the 'many worlds interpretation' of quantum mechanics, most of these border on crackpottery. One prominent physicist suggests that the big-bang is a remnant of an earlier universe which underwent a crunch, again a completely unverifiable scenario. Every such attempt to explain why our universe is tuned is generally bad science. For us, it should be a reassurance, considering nothing in the quran is out of line with what is found.

Again, on the bold text, some people who have been objective and also had contact with the quran have also converted. They are peppered across "Islam is true" sites all over. Here's a rather good one. So yes, you can be objective and end up believing in god and even the quran. Considering both of us, or me at least, are 100% laymen, how can you really just give a set of 10 points taken from the quran and dismiss them by giving the general theory behind them? Of course if you were looking for miracles you would be out of luck but the quran is talking about signs, not miracles.

Fine tuning? Is that Intelligent Design theories that you are talking about? Let's listen to both sides of the story first before judging what is verifiable and what is not. All of the sites peppered across the internet about Islam is true... Most of those sites do not even support evolution, but you do not believe that aspect of those sites. Picking and choosing... Anyway, for the "supposed" fine tuning, me being a "laymen" as well, the following websites takes a critical look at what the "fine tuners" are proposing... Again these sites were already mentioned in the "Where did we come from" thread

http//www.talkdesign.org/cs/td_faq
http//www.talkorigins.org/faqs/cosmo.html

(1) - Can you explain why the fine structure constant has the value it has? Do you know the sheer odds in play for our existence and continued survival? Everything around Earth is more or less tuned for human life, the sun's emission spectrum is concentrated in the visible light region. It's all anthropic reasoning here.
(2) - There is slightly more to it than that. We are at the perfect distance from the sun for human life and the elliptical orbit + off centre rotation brings in more effects like the seasons and so on, all pretty important for the life around us, and us included.
(3) - How about 5533?
(4) - Very quick dismissal again. Can you explain the whole dynamics behind the water cycle and can you explain exactly how it works and then go on to say it's not special? I'd like to see you try.
(5) - I'm not even going to bother...
(6) - Why aren't all our winds going at 300mph like on some of Jupiter's moons? ;D
(7) - See (4). And also, clouds are very detailed in the quran. See for instance this link. I don't think that Muhammad the goat herder or whatever could have had access to equipment allowing him to look up there very easily.

(1) In your own words, why do you think that the universe revolves around life/humans? The odds that you are talking about, given the size of the universe and the sheer number of galaxies and mathematics, there is more than a high probability of other planets in other galaxies which will have life and life supporting conditions. Fine tuning just for earth? Please... it's just a matter of thinking whether the earth became suitable for us, or did nature take its course and made life (including us) suitable for the evolving earthly conditions.

(2) I thought that the verse was talking about Night and Day? So you don't think that there is a night or a day on other planets, irrespective of whether there is life there or otherwise?

(3) Yeah, what about it? It says that if you want to escape the earth or penetrate space, you'll need power to do so... how much power? Just enough to break free of earth's gravity... rocket power... so any sign here?

(4) I'm not too sure what the answer to that question will accomplish? Wiki it (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_cycle) and tell me are any of the processes involved more special than any other natural processes on earth? Or are all processes special or miraculous? One man's logic is another man's miracle...

(5) Ditto... because it's something you already believe to be true...

(6) Why are you asking the questions in light of life? The phenomenon of wind is present whether in lifeless planets or otherwise. Can you chalk up the phenomenon of wind to anything other than nature and environmental factors?

(7) Just answer me this... 1736, right? If we are only able to verify the information of the Book just now, what did the people do, say 1200 years, from now? Could they have verified the information about the clouds? If they couldn't have, as you have implied, then what in the world possessed them to accept these the verses?

Just reminds of the story of the "Emperor's New Clothes"... The tailors told the King and the people that these special clothes can only be seen by those who are intelligent and so, people admitted to seeing and admiring the clothes, because they feared that they would be labeled as dumb, whereas they actually couldn't see the clothes.

The question really is what is the significance of a "Sign"? Does it augment the existence of the Lord (and his "Laws&quot or does it supplement what is in the Book? I believe that it is the latter. The effect that would have is that it would establish or strengthen the belief in the Truth of the Book, i.e. if it is right about this, then it must be right about everything it say, including the existence of God. That is all the proof one needs. If one believes it is the former, then, as you like to say, the burden of proof is on you to show how so.

So back to the topic at hand... Isa, Son of Mary... You know what really gets my goat? It's that basically there are only 2 plausible reasons why Isa's father isn't mentioned

(1) He was inconsequential in the grand scheme of things.
(2) He wasn't there to begin with.

Was he inconsequential? Would you call all the controversy surrounding his birth inconsequential? Was it so much to ask from the Lord to clarify this issue when the Book was revealed by just mentioning, even if only once, Mary and her spouse/partner? What was the gross lie/charge that the people brought against Mary? That she had had illicit relations outside of marital bonds and conceived thusly? How could a charge like that even hold with even a hint of a husband, unless and until, the people then, like now, did not believe that one could conceive a child without intercourse? Do you honestly believe that Mary, who was so devoted toward the Lord, prostrating and kneeling (343) and was so very careful to remain out of contact with men (347, 1917-1920) that she would distract herself from her devoutedness to her Lord somehow and find someone to marry and conceive?

The whole issue stems from the assertions that there is no change in the "Laws" of the Lord, i.e. the physical observable laws. If there is no change, then there couldn't have ever been a change in them, and so all the "miraculous" event are metaphorical. So now, what we have here is a yard-stick to judge the Book, i.e. Physical Observable Laws and Events. The expression of such laws in this day and age just represents our imperfect attempts at economical and useful descriptions of the observations we make with our senses and instruments. Every now and then, a phenomenon occurs which forces us to change those statement or add addendums to them, e.g. Laws governing the Macro Universe and the Micro Universe. To say that some event could not have happened because our current knowledge of laws and events does not support it is very very presumptuous as all knowledge is only with the Lord. It has kept increasing over a period of time and will keep on increasing. So, to close all the doors on believing something which we cannot verify using our current knowledge just categorises us in the same class as the people who thought that Heavier-than-air flying machines are impossible.

Peace

arnoldyasin

The whole issue stems from the assertions that there is no change in the "Laws" of the Lord, i.e. the physical observable laws. If there is no change, then there couldn't have ever been a change in them, and so all the "miraculous" event are metaphorical.

Peace,

One of the biggest mistakes people make, is the assumptions that the stories can only be understood in 2 ways, literal miracles or metaphorical examples. It is really important people start to understand the Arabic used gives far wider terms then traditionaly understood or thought off as their mind used the Bible as their Furqan instead of the Quran itself or science. Many times the stories are not talking about miracles at all and can be understood literally when other meanings of the Arabic root of the words are used.

Please see this essay

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=3810f2b9ce373213207eec3e3713b409

Sharp001

Peace,

One of the biggest mistakes people make, is the assumptions that the stories can only be understood in 2 ways, literal miracles or metaphorical examples. It is really important people start to understand the Arabic used gives far wider terms then traditionaly understood or thought off as their mind used the Bible as their Furqan instead of the Quran itself or science. Many times the stories are not talking about miracles at all and can be understood literally when other meanings of the Arabic root of the words are used.

Please see this essay

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=3810f2b9ce373213207eec3e3713b409

Br. Arnold,

Just an extract from one for first paragraphs of that article

"...
The idea that Islam must believe in a God that supports the supernatural is wrong. But in the last 1400 years the belief in the supernatural dominates Islam. How can this be? There are 2 factors involved which I?ll discuss. First of all, this is normal, as most people in those times were in a mythological phase of thinking. Their concept of power or divinity was connected by miracles and the supernatural as they themselves understood little of the creation. Because they didn't see the world and the whole universe as evidence enough for Allah's power, they demanded things that went beyond their direct doing...."

How difficult is it to accept that, when such people of those times didn't have the requisite knowledge to see the world as evidence, God provided them the "miracles" to help them believe?

Peace

phoenix1

Peace,

One of the biggest mistakes people make, is the assumptions that the stories can only be understood in 2 ways, literal miracles or metaphorical examples. It is really important people start to understand the Arabic used gives far wider terms then traditionaly understood or thought off as their mind used the Bible as their Furqan instead of the Quran itself or science. Many times the stories are not talking about miracles at all and can be understood literally when other meanings of the Arabic root of the words are used.

Please see this essay

http//19.org/index.php?id=91,548,0,0,1,0&PHPSESSID=3810f2b9ce373213207eec3e3713b409

peace Arnold (we haven't talked in a whiiile)
If we pick and choose which meaning to use, aren't we then just making the quran say what we want it to say?
If the quran really is so "flexible" then it is pointless because it is not saying anything at all. There is never an end to any argument regarding anything because there is always some sort of a question mark over it.
And what it comes down to in the end is observing the signs of the world around us and using reason to arrive at the truth, like Abraham did.
What people are doing is first making the quran the criteria for judging truthfulness, then coming to an understanding about an issue independently of the quran, and then using the quran to promote their understanding.
That is just wrong.
It wouldn't be if we just take the quran out of the equation.

I think that due to the age of the quran (our language, culture, and knowledge has changed a lot over 1400 years), it has become impossible to determine what the quran really says, which means we have to let go of the quran and move on.

jonny_k

Peace "lobster",
Well you are entitled to your view but that doesnt mean others will have to agree. IMO, bros Arnold, Edip, etc, understanding and deciphering the true Quranic Message would lead to THE EXPONENTIAL DEVELOPMENT OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION BOTH SCIENTIFICALLY AND SOCIALLY. We need to establish a Quran Alone state to prove this though. Now we'll just have to wait and see. GOD Bless!

phoenix1

peace Jonny,
Again you did not address the point of my post.
To refute my point, you would have to prove that an exact understanding of the quran is possible, and that Edip and Arnold are not bringing in any outside knowledge whatsoever in deciphering the quran's message (which is obviously not true).

We all know that a free, healthy, morally decent society is possible without the quran. Then why do you keep clamoring for a quran alone state?
How is the quran alone state going to be better in any tangible way?

jonny_k

Peace "lobster",

peace Jonny,
Again you did not address the point of my post.
To refute my point, you would have to prove that an exact understanding of the quran is possible, and that Edip and Arnold are not bringing in any outside knowledge whatsoever in deciphering the quran's message (which is obviously not true).

JK- 1stly yes i believe it is possible to decipher the Quran and that before the end of the universe all of it would have been deciphered. Regarding outside sources ofcourse we can use unbiased dictionaries and archeological research to verify the Quranic statements which it even asks us to do. The outside sources though need to be unbiased and must be acquired THROUGH INDEPENDENT RESEARCH. That is the key to understanding the Quran correctly and thats what i beleive bros edip, arnold and the likes are doing.

We all know that a free, healthy, morally decent society is possible without the quran. Then why do you keep clamoring for a quran alone state?
How is the quran alone state going to be better in any tangible way?

JK- Yes but it is developing very slowly and i beleive that if we have a chance for exponetial deveopment it would be stupid to go for the slow or linear one. GOD Bless!

phoenix1

peace
You think that "before the end of the universe" is not slow?
And if you can reach the truth independently of the quran, what's the quran's role then?
This is exactly what I was talking about. Making the quran an idol which must be obeyed, then coming up with your understanding independently, and then using that idol to promote your understanding. It has "wrong" written all over it with bold capital letters.

The fact is that people are better off directing this effort somewhere else because trying to understand the quran isn't getting them anywhere, and if we agree with you about the nature of the quran, then even with all their efforts doubled they will not get anywhere because the human race hasn't evolved enough yet.
Like Abraham, we must study the signs in nature, in the world around us, and let experience be our teacher.

Jack

We all know that a free, healthy, morally decent society is possible without the quran.

Possible, yes. But, what isn't?

How many free, healthy and morally 'decent' societies have there ever been?

This is exactly what I was talking about. Making the quran an idol which must be obeyed, then coming up with your understanding independently, and then using that idol to promote your understanding. It has "wrong" written all over it with bold capital letters.

Strawman...you can't make conclusions for others and then pick it apart

The idea of 'idols' is from the scriptures. Now tell me, independently of the quran, how do you know what an idol is?
And what is an idol and why?

Peace.

Tay

Peace Sharp,

Signs for mankind, you say? Of what, may I ask? Existence of God? Objectively speaking, if one doesn't have the preconceived conclusion of God in mind, can you please tell me honestly whether you or any rational/logical/practical person will acknowledge them as anything other than phenomenon of natural processes? For that matter, what sign did you find within the body of an ant? Probably not more signs than what you find in a virus or bacteria under a microscope...

There's one important question I posed which you overlooked

"How does one quantify whether or not something is worthy of being a sign?"

What's amazing to me may not be so to you, and vice versa. It really depends on what we're looking for in the first place as well as what the criteria is. Life, to me, is amazing, in all it's forms. The fact that at it's simplest form, all of life is basically 1's and 0's, yet we see and experience such a myriad of sensory information - that is mind-blowing.

So, whether it's the anatomy of an ant, or an amoeba, or a blue whale, it's all amazing to me, and there are signs in every corner. The "natural process", in itself, is amazing, and a sign of something much bigger and greater than the sum total of all we can possibly absorb.

I hope that answers your questions.

Peace,
Tay

arnoldyasin

Br. Arnold,

Just an extract from one for first paragraphs of that article

"...
The idea that Islam must believe in a God that supports the supernatural is wrong. But in the last 1400 years the belief in the supernatural dominates Islam. How can this be? There are 2 factors involved which Ill discuss. First of all, this is normal, as most people in those times were in a mythological phase of thinking. Their concept of power or divinity was connected by miracles and the supernatural as they themselves understood little of the creation. Because they didn't see the world and the whole universe as evidence enough for Allah's power, they demanded things that went beyond their direct doing...."

How difficult is it to accept that, when such people of those times didn't have the requisite knowledge to see the world as evidence, God provided them the "miracles" to help them believe?

Peace

Peace Sharp,

Because people can only be truly convinced by the Truth. Convincing them through supernatural phenomena would sustain their wrong concept of God and Nature, a false concept that first has to be broken before they can be reformed into a correct society. The correct God's image is directly linked to understanding nature, understanding nature is linked to knowing how one's deeds as a species affects your species, understanding cause and effect is directly linked in running a good society. It is all linked together, and even today many people want to believe in miracles as many still do not understand the workings of nature. Don't forget the 2 billion Christians and 1 Billion Muslims who almost all believe in supernatural events, so this mind-state of demanding the supernatural before they believe in God's power is still present today among Mankind, this is why God's Words are and have been the same to every Messenger

2118 Only those who fail to explore the realm of knowledge say, Why does Allah not speak unto us directly, nor is a miracle shown to us? Even thus, as they now speak, spoke those who lived before their times. Their ways of thinking, their hearts and minds are all alike (untouched by the passage of time.) Indeed, We have made all the Signs clear for people who wish to attain conviction by exploring the intrinsic Truth in these Revelations and in the Universe. (2108, 2256, 1829, 4251, 763)

2164 (Never does Allah propose blind faith.) Behold, there are ample Signs In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, and the alternation of the night and the day - and the ships that roam the ocean for the benefit of mankind - and the water that Allah sends down from the sky, thereby giving life to the land after it had been lifeless - and in dispersing a great variety of creatures therein - and in the currents of winds - and the clouds subservient between the high atmosphere and the Earth. All these are clear Signs for those who exercise their intellect. (The Universe is too organized to be the result of an accident 673.)

3058 And verily, We have given numerous examples in the Qur'an for mankind. But even if you came with a miracle, those who are bent on denying would say, "You are only falsifiers."

6109 They swear by Allah that if a miracle comes to them, they would surely believe in it (the Book). Say, All miracles are with Allah (if you reflect on the Universe). What can make you understand that even if a physical miracle came to them, they will find other excuses and still not believe?

6111 Even if We caused the angels to descend to them, and the dead to speak to them, and We lined up all the miracles before them, they would not believe. People can be guided only according to Allahs Laws that express His Will in the Universe, but most of them choose the way of ignorance.

So why is hard for people to see that miracles have no meaning at all for believing in God and His Word, it are all false concepts of Nature and God's Workings and thus they can never be the basis for a scientific progressive society.

And Phoenix,

The Quran directs into understanding the workings of Nature constantly and that God does not deviate from His System in the Universe, put these 2 together and then we can start to understand how we must understand the Quranic Message

Quran contains no contradictions within the Text itself and Reality.

482 Will they not then, try to understand this Quran? If it were from other than God they would surely have found in it much contradiction .

There are no flaws in the Universal Design and so there is no need for interferring or micro-management by God, it is created as a selfsustaining and self-developing Universe.

506 Do they not look at the sky above them how We have built it and beautified it, and there are no flaws therein?

So God does not interfer in the Universe except through communication Revelation/Wahi to Mankind to guide them without interferring their free will.

14 He is the Absolute Owner of the Era when all creation shall have completed their journey of existence, evolution and action to the Ultimate Just outcome. The Divine Appointer and Executer of the Laws and Rules, which control the Realm of Existence in this period of Evolution.

1827 (O Messenger) Convey to the world whatever of this Book is revealed to you from your Developer of your Evolution. (619). There is none that can alter His Words. Tell them that you can find no refuge outside Allah, the Lawmaker (and thus His Laws).

4823 This is Gods law that has been in force since older times. And you will never find any change in Gods laws.

4164-5 We sent Our messengers and mentioned some and of some others We have not. (However, all of them were assigned a Common Mission.) And God spoke directly to Moses. All messengers gave good news, as well as warning, so that humans would not have an argument against God, after the messengers conveyed to them the guidance. God is Almighty, having the knowledge that you need.

Understanding Nature is so important according to the Quran, a society without science is a society destined for destruction.

3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon
how Gods laws operate in the Universe.) Standing, sitting, and reclining,
they reflect upon the wonders of creation in the skies and earth, saying,
"Our Lord! You have not created all this without purpose. glory to You!
Save us, then, from (being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus
from) the doom of the fire.

3192 (Reflecting on the Universe and upon their own role on the Planet,
such people work for the betterment of humanity 1317. They say), Our
Lord! Any individuals and nations whom You admit into the fire, You
have brought them low (for failing to harness the forces in Nature)."
There are no helpers for those who displace knowledge with conjecture
and thus wrong themselves.
3193 "Our Lord! We have heard a caller calling to faith, Believe in your
Lord! So we have believed. Our Lord! Protect us from trailing behind in
humanity, blot out from us our iniquities, and let our end be in the
company of those who have made room for others to advance in the
society."

To understand God, His Power, His Wisdom, His Knowledge and His Kalimat and Sunnitallah, we must investigate Nature, the workings of the Universe, as this shows us the expression of God's Will.

8817 Will they not, then, look at

the water-laden clouds, how they are made? (1522).
8818 - And at the sky, how it is raised high? (Without visible pillars 132).
8819 - And at the mountains, how they are entrenched?
8820 - And at the earth, how it is spread out? (That you do not even feel the
sphere, nor feel its speedy rotations 3110, 395, 7928-30).
8821 (This is some evidence, O Messenger!) Remind them, for you are one
to remind.

2118 Only those who fail to explore the realm of knowledge say, Why does Allah not speak unto us directly, nor is a miracle shown to us? Even thus, as they now speak, spoke those who lived before their times. Their ways of thinking, their hearts and minds are all alike (untouched by the passage of time.) Indeed, We have made all the Signs clear for people who wish to attain conviction by exploring the intrinsic Truth in these Revelations and in the Universe. (2108, 2256, 1829, 4251, 763)

2164 (Never does Allah propose blind faith.) Behold, there are ample Signs In the creation of the Heavens and the Earth, and the alternation of the night and the day - and the ships that roam the ocean for the benefit of mankind - and the water that Allah sends down from the sky, thereby giving life to the land after it had been lifeless - and in dispersing a great variety of creatures therein - and in the currents of winds - and the clouds subservient between the high atmosphere and the Earth. All these are clear Signs for those who exercise their intellect. (The Universe is too organized to be the result of an accident 673.)

1679 Have they not considered the birds enabled to fly in mid-air, with none but Allah holding them aloft? (2471). In this, behold, are messages for those who wish to attain conviction through reason.

4013 He it is Who shows you His Signs in the Universe and sends down sustenance for you from the sky. Yet none learns a lesson except those who turn to seek the Truth.

4233 And if He so wills He calms the winds so that they come to a halt on its surface. Herein, behold, are signs for everyone who is patient (in reading the Book of Nature) and grateful (for what he learns).

105 He it is, Who appointed the sun as a splendid glow, and the moon as a cool light. He appointed stages for the moon, in due measure. You make your calculations and calendars accordingly (697, 1712). Allah has created the Universe as the Absolute Reality and for a Purpose. (It is neither a dream, nor a reflection of the world of ideas). Allah details His Verses for those who wish to learn.
106 In the difference of day and night, and all that Allah has created in the heavens and the earth, there are signs for those who wish to walk aright.

1432 (Think about the Source of your wealth and provision). Allah it is Who has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down water from the sky, thereby producing fruit and vegetation as provision for you. And He makes ships and boats to be of service to you that they sail in the sea by His Command, and has made of service to you the rivers.

See more 1712; 2130-2133; 2561-2562; 3020-3025; 3110,3131;

The Quran is decider of the true account of an event, and no other scriptures as the Bible can have any say over the Quranic Message, it is the Quran that is the decider, the Furqan.

251 Most Blessed He is Who has revealed to His servant, the Criterion of right and wrong. the Furqan, so that it might be a warning to the entire world.

The Quran demands you investigate everything before you may have trust in it.

1736 And you shall not follow blindly any information of which you have no direct knowledge. (Using your faculties of perception and conception) you must verify it for yourself. In the Court of your Lord, you will be held accountable for your hearing, Sight, and the faculty of reasoning. (And so, the insane and the disabled will have their incapacities taken into account in a court of law)

The Quran uses the Arabic language, and so we must investigate this language in all its aspects and possibilities.

433 We have made it a Monograph in clear Arabic language that you may fully understand.

These are the rules of the Quran concerning its interpretation, and this is how it explains itself.

7519 Then, it is for Us to explain it.

And we must always follow the best explanation which takes in account all above factors.

3918 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best of its application
(in a given situation), such are the ones whom God has guided, and they
are the ones endowed with insight.

These are the rules the Quran gives us for its interpretation, and these rules I try to follow. So no, there is no personal messing around with the Quranic Message just to make it appealing to the 'modern' times, I follow its rules to the letter and thus come to my results in my articles and books.

4311 And He it is Who sends down water from the sky in due measure. And We revive with it a dead land, thus will you be brought forth.

4312 And He it is Who has created all things in pairs and He it is Who has
given you all those ships and quadrupeds on which you ride. (See 3636)

2443 Have you not seen how God drives the clouds, then gathers them, then makes them layers, and then you see the rain coming forth from them? He sends down, from the heights, hail and loads of snow to cover some ground and leave some uncovered, according to His Laws. The flashes of lightning and the brightness of the snow dazzle the Sight, all but snatching it away. (219-20)

1522 And We send the winds as pollinators that fertilize plants, and cause
water to come down from the height for you to drink. Who holds the stores of the Universe? You do not. (5141)

2130 Are the unbelievers not aware (after this proclamation) that the heavens and the earth used to be one solid mass that We exploded into parting? And that out of water We made every living thing? Will they not, then, acknowledge the Truth?

5147 And it is We who have built the Universe with power, and verily, it is We who are steadily expanding it. (Samaa = Sky = Heaven = Allegorically the Universe. Bi-Ayidin = With hands = With power)

2133 And He it is Who created the night and the day, and the sun and the
moon. They swim along, each in an orbit.

395 He it is Who has created the heavens and the earth to fulfill a definite Purpose. He rolls the night over the day, and rolls the day over the night. And He has subjected the sun and the moon, each running along its course for a term appointed. Is not He the Almighty, the Ever-Absolver of Imperfections?

8611 Witness is the high atmosphere that keeps returning (its water, gases and other composition).

229 He it is Who has created for you whatever is on earth all of
it. And He has applied His Design to the High Cosmos and
fashioned it in several ascending heights. He is the Supreme
Knower of what all things are destined to be. (117, 5331, 571-2.)

2131 And We have set firm mountains (as pegs) on the earth, lest it sway with them (1615) And We have made therein broad roadways so that they might find their way.

2788 And the powerful elite that you deem firm as mountains, will float around like weightless clouds. Such is the Design of God Who disposes off all things in perfect order. Surely, He is fully Aware of what you do.

5725 Indeed, We sent Our Messengers with the evident Truth and revealed with them the Law and the Standard of right and wrong that mankind may deal in justice. And We have bestowed on from high the iron in which there is awesome power and many benefits for people. For, God marks out those who help Him and His Messengers although the victory may initially be obscure to them. Surely, God is Strong, Almighty.

2440 Or total darkness in the midst of a deep ocean, with waves upon waves and a thick cloud above - darkness upon darkness. When he holds out his hand, he can barely see it. For, whomever God deprives of light, will have no light.

9615 Nay, if such a person desists not, We will seize him by the forelobe (to a state of humiliation 1156)

754 Yes indeed, We have the Power to restore his very finger tips.

303 In the lowest lands close-by; yet it is they, who despite this defeat of theirs, shall be victorious.

1254 The King said, "Bring him to me so that I may appoint him a close
adviser to me." And when he had spoken with him, the King decreed, "From today on you have a high standing with us, invested with all trust."

698 And He it is Who initiated you from a single life cell. Then in the process of evolution He appointed stages, from one station to the next destination. (Thus goes on the journey of life here and in the Hereafter (116) We have explained Our Laws for people who will learn and understand.

7930 And after that He made the earth shoot out from the Cosmic Nebula and made it spread out egg-shaped.

5533 O Communities of the nomads and the urban! If you can break through the fences of the heavens and the earth, then, break through. Never can you break through without an Authority. Can you bring any evidence?

3191 (Such men and women of understanding keep reflecting upon how
Gods Laws operate in the Universe) Standing, sitting, and reclining, they
observe, and reflect upon God's creation of the heavens and the earth and
wonder, "Our Lord! You have not created all this without Purpose. High Above You are from creating anything in vain! Save us, then, from being negligent in attaining knowledge and thus, getting condemned to Fire. (When humans harness the forces of Nature and use them for the common good of all, they move away from Hell and close to Paradise in both lives 4513-14. The Quran constanly refers to us the importance of scientific observation and testing, as the Quran guides into creating the correct understanding and relation of Reality. Because of this constant reference to Nature as proof of God, and that it exposes parts of His Will next to Revelation, the early Muslims started to investigate Nature and discovered many things, which Western Historians call the Golden Age, which later on started the Enlightment of Europe. Under the Guidance of the Quran, the Early Muslims created the ways of scientific exploration that is still used today. 7185, 1736, 8817-21)

huruf

One of the things that attracted me to the Qur'an is its "disdain" (may be this is not the word) for miracles. If, as the Qur'an says, we do not marvel at Reality, at What Is, then miracles are redundant, because we will be looking for circus and not for truth.

I also see the point of Lobster that the Qur'an should not become an idol. And what is an idol? basically a lie we tell ourselves and to which we cling. The Qur'an doesn't tell lies, but we may well tell ourselves lies regarding the qur'an. The qur'an, again, is a guide to Reality, not some substitute for it. It must therefore be in harmony with reality. If something clashes, then we are not using the guide properly or we are not seeing the qur'an or reality properly. In that sense, the Guide should push us to more honesty, truthfulness, unbiased observation. There is a tendency to come right out with some Qur'an recipe, no matter what, and "end of the discussion, there, the qur'an says so, that's all there is to it". That may be in fact a rejection of personal responsibility for one's own beliefs and behaviour. While collectively we may need to agree on a set of things in order for the society to function, at a personal level we cannot submit to whatever anybody or many people say is the "right" interpretation or meaning. The Qur'an and Reality has to talk to us personally and we must experience it so, which of course, does not exclude, quite the opposite, any cooperation and help we may get from others, who by the way are also part of that Reality.

Another thing is that we talk about a perfect society. That is Paradise, this life is a test, not the place for the perfect society, because society is made of people, and as long as people are not perfect, a society cannot be perfect. However we must strive for it in this world. It is in this world that we must strive for it, and for our own improvement, because if we don't, we will not be creating Paradise for us and therefore when we are no longer restricted by material dimensions, we will fall in the hole we may have created for ourselves, where no peace, sakina, love and everything that paradise means will be. Some people see this impossibility on earth of a perfect society as something awful, but I can't see any justification for it. In fact, that perfect society is within our reach, each one of us's reach, in usually less than one hundred years, so why do we speak of long time for it to happen in desperation? Those who will come after us will also have a perfect society within their reach in probably less then one hundred years... Is not this what the Qur'an keeps telling us and what in fact we can see in reality and why those who die fi sabilillah are granted immediate paradise? And this must be something quite natural, not some kind of award handing for believing blindly at some gigantic Oscar ceremony. If we believe, it is because we know, we are knowing enough to die for Truth, not because we are commanded anything, but because we know. As Lobster I think implied, we may die fi sabilillah even if we think we are atheists, if we are uncorrupted, if we believed so completely in justice and truth enough to put our lives, our health or our possessions into that conviction, for no reward, just out of knowledge of that being so. If you prefer Truth to life, then you are already fi sabillah and getting the key to that perfecto society.

Excuse the length and the sermon.
Salaam

Sharp001

Peace Sharp,

There's one important question I posed which you overlooked

"How does one quantify whether or not something is worthy of being a sign?"

What's amazing to me may not be so to you, and vice versa. It really depends on what we're looking for in the first place as well as what the criteria is. Life, to me, is amazing, in all it's forms. The fact that at it's simplest form, all of life is basically 1's and 0's, yet we see and experience such a myriad of sensory information - that is mind-blowing.

So, whether it's the anatomy of an ant, or an amoeba, or a blue whale, it's all amazing to me, and there are signs in every corner. The "natural process", in itself, is amazing, and a sign of something much bigger and greater than the sum total of all we can possibly absorb.

I hope that answers your questions.

Peace,
Tay

Peace Tay and Arnold,

Believe it or not, that does answer my questions about your standpoint. "What is amazing to you may not be amazing for someone else..." So very true... The reason behind my line of questioning was just to bring this aspect out to light. The Lord is Most Wise. All kinds of signs, both the natural and "supernatural", are here to address the psyche of different people. "Verily, it is easy for Him." I mean think about Abraham, even when he recognized God through His creations, he asked Him reassure his heart by showing him how He brings life from the dead. If you say all signs are between the Heavens and the Earth, then tell me the need for the Lord to mention and highlight specific signs, like Jesus and His Mother etc.

About the use of the word "ayat"... I don't understand the criteria for attributing what meaning it carries. I mean there is no consistency. Somewhere it is taken to mean "sign", in other places it is taken to mean "miracle". I mean why? Like I said, what your yardstick is reality. If that is so, then logically, anything you cannot comprehend must and can not be acceptable to you... ever. That is the reason why a "miracle" would be redundant and useless in this day and age because of what people will say, "This is just trickery, sleight of hand... it is not real". Truly, the Lord is Most Wise.

Then their is the concept of the afterlife. Now before anyone types a long post for their understanding, I have read what explanation Br. Arnold gave to Br. amuslim and suffice to say that I am not over-awed by the understanding. I am basically constructing my thought processes about a few topics, which includes the Day of Judgment and the Afterlife. Just as an example, one question is how do you feel about meeting with your Lord? We know that all mankind will meet their Maker. How do you understand that will happen? Metaphorically? Here on Earth? How so? Just a simple 2-3 lines will do for now.

huruf

I think God is too much. We will get of Him what we can absorb when we can, in this life or thereafter. God, if we do not need it for our own spiritual destiny, will not manifest in His full might, because we could not handle that. There are attributes of God that the human heart will rather not know, like God the punisher. We pray for his mercy so that aspects of His that are most glentle manifest to us in the appropriate measure and outweight those that would mean hell for us.

Salaam

unknownuser

I think it depends on context as to whether "aya" means signs or verses (not really an issue in the quran given that it IS a sign in itself), and it is always plural as far as I can see when used to denote 'signs'. I'm no authority on arabic so I'll leave it at that.

Somewhere it is taken to mean "sign", in other places it is taken to mean "miracle".

Somehow I doubt that. Because you are basing your understanding of that on what you percieve to be correct about the quran - and if you notice, exactly that is being challenged.

That is the reason why a "miracle" would be redundant and useless in this day and age because of what people will say, "This is just trickery, sleight of hand... it is not real". Truly, the Lord is Most Wise.

Again I have to disagree. If you note the context of the verse where people said so to Jesus, it's clear that you can't derive any information as to whether it was supernatural or not - those who believed believed, those who didn't, didn't, and excused themselves from it. In this day and age, however, sure, you're correct, for that reason people won't believe. There is a reason for that, because we've come to learning how everything else can be explained by simple laws of nature and thus expect it at all times.

Then their is the concept of the afterlife. Now before anyone types a long post for their understanding, I have read what explanation Br. Arnold gave to Br. amuslim and suffice to say that I am not over-awed by the understanding. I am basically constructing my thought processes about a few topics, which includes the Day of Judgment and the Afterlife. Just as an example, one question is how do you feel about meeting with your Lord? We know that all mankind will meet their Maker. How do you understand that will happen? Metaphorically? Here on Earth? How so? Just a simple 2-3 lines will do for now.

Good question. I don't think we should extrapolate or use anything other than what the quran actually gives us.

phoenix1

peace

Possible, yes. But, what isn't?

How many free, healthy and morally 'decent' societies have there ever been?

I know that in the town I live in, most people are morally good and live healthy lives. No one reads the quran.
Even if you had a "quran alone" government that worked and was free from any corruption, the everyday lives of people wouldn't be any different, or at least wouldn't be any better.

Strawman...you can't make conclusions for others and then pick it apart

The idea of 'idols' is from the scriptures. Now tell me, independently of the quran, how do you know what an idol is?
And what is an idol and why?

I'm not making anything up. I think it's fairly obvious what people here do. In either case it is my observation about others and I offer Arnold's posts in this thread as proof.

The idea of "idols" is not from the scriptures. I don't know how you came to that conclusion. It is an idea that the quran describes, but idols certainly existed before written language was invented and I'm sure there are people who cannot read or write but understand the idea of idols.
An idol, the way I used the word, would be something that is followed/worshipped blindly.
People here make the assumption that the quran is right, then they independently come to an understanding that they think is right, and then fit it into the quran so they can sell it to themselves and others.
I did that too until I realized that if I come to understand the truth, it should be followed because it is the truth, not because the quran says it. The fact that something is true should be enough to accept it, and the fact that something is false should be enough to reject it. The same goes for everything the quran says as well. If people find something in the quran they don't like, then they go about changing the words and interpretation to fit an understanding they already have.
The belief in the "divinity" of the quran creates a messy situation.

Sharp001

I think it depends on context as to whether "aya" means signs or verses (not really an issue in the quran given that it IS a sign in itself), and it is always plural as far as I can see when used to denote 'signs'. I'm no authority on arabic so I'll leave it at that.

Somehow I doubt that. Because you are basing your understanding of that on what you percieve to be correct about the quran - and if you notice, exactly that is being challenged.

So let me get this straight. "Aya", depending on the context of the verses has been used in the Book to mean either

(1) Signs, or
(2) Verses

Am I correct? Nothing about miracles, right?

Again I have to disagree. If you note the context of the verse where people said so to Jesus, it's clear that you can't derive any information as to whether it was supernatural or not - those who believed believed, those who didn't, didn't, and excused themselves from it. In this day and age, however, sure, you're correct, for that reason people won't believe. There is a reason for that, because we've come to learning how everything else can be explained by simple laws of nature and thus expect it at all times.

The acts of Jesus are just one of the many such acts. I am making a list of all such acts in the Book, but just to start off with a few

(1) Moses and the parting of the Sea (Sea of Reeds or the Red Sea, whichever one you want to call it)
(2) Mary and the food that she got, which she claimed was from her Lord.
(3) Jesus and the table from "Heaven".
(4) Abraham and the Birds.

Now I have read all the explanations in Dr. Shabbir's QXP. If you accept those explanations, then no need to reply to these queries. I already know those. I mean he emphasizes use of Tafseer which is just fine with me, but somewhere along the way, the understanding start getting forced. As an example, Adam. What meaning is attributed to Adam? Is it a name like Jesus, not to be translated or not? If not, why and what meaning is acceptable? All Mankind, when it come to comparison with Jesus, or Early Mankind, when it comes to 333-34 ("God has selected Adam, and Noah, and the family of Abraham, and the family of Imran over the worlds, a progeny each from the other, and God is Hearer, Knower.&quot True Guidance is only from the Lord, not from dictionaries or one's perception of reality. The fact of the matter is one cannot claim to have true knowledge. 1736, right? Everything about Jesus, can you please tell me how one can verify that? The truth of the matter is one cannot, one had no knowledge of the "events" until He gave the knowledge thereof through the Book. The Keeper of all Knowledge is our Lord. He gave us the Book with knowledge. And what do we do? We start scrutinizing that knowledge for its authenticity. We start to seek its ratification with our limited observations. Why should the accept the Book if we don't find it truthful? "...Truly man is ungrateful/rejectful." Am I saying that we should follow the Book blindly? No, because the Book itself tells you what one can verify if one feels the need to affirm one's belief by stating, "See..." or "Do they not see..." Our Lord is Most Wise, He knows His creations better than anyone. He knows our psyche and our need to know everything. Please tell me any verse where it tells you to verify past events, other than to verify their results, their destruction, their ruins. Never the actual events themselves because fact of the matter is one can't verify them, one can only speculate or extrapolate... but then again why conjecture? God tells you the events Himself. He was there, we weren't.

Good question. I don't think we should extrapolate or use anything other than what the quran actually gives us.

Now this is what I truly don't understand. On the one hand, you say that we should neither extrapolate nor use anything other than what the Book actually tells us about it, but on the other hand for all that has happened in the past, we should use the yardstick of reality and not take at face value what the Book tells us. How does that work?

Peace