Why do you beleive the Quran to be the Word of GOD?

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Ayman,

Which planet do you live on? NUMBERS CAN BE MADE TO LIE ALL THE TIME. Mathematics is just a tool and what you get depends on how you use it.

Politicians use numbers to lie all the time. For example, they may tell you "we grew our economy by 1,000,000,000 one billion pounds or dinars or whatever". What they don't tell you is that this represents only 1% of the GDP and that inflation was 20% so that economy actually shrank.

Similarly, if I tell you that I cured 1,000 people from cancer, you will think that I discovered a miracle cure.

What you don't know is that I had 100,000 patients and 99,000 of them died a painful death upon taking my medicine. What I am also not telling you is that taking nothing but a placebo, 5,000 people were cured of this type of cancer anyway. So a placebo has a better success rate than my "miracle" cure.

Numbers are as much about what is being told as about what is not being told. It is only those who are ignorants in mathematics who say things like NUMBERS DON'T LIE.

This is ridiculous. I didn't say anything about organizing the numbers in a way that they would mislead people. I said numbers, generally, do not lie, and that is a true statement. 1+1=2, and this will always be the case, no matter who the unknown factors are. If this is not the case, then show me a way in which 5+5=11. laugh

If someone places factors in order with the intention of misleading, this is not denying the accuracy of mathematics. For example, if you cured 1,000 out of 100,000 people from cancer using some kind of "miracle cure", the FACT is that you cured 1,000 people of cancer. The numbers are not lying at all. What you are doing is concealing the rest of the results with the intention of being misleading. Likewise, if politicians say we grew our economy by 1,000,000,000 pounds/denars/dollars/euros/etc., this is a mathematically correct statement. The numbers are NOT lying at all. It is the politician who has concealed the factors and percentages of these totals, not revealing them to the people.

Only those who are ignorant in mathematics would say things like NUMBERS DO LIE. In reality, numbers don't lie, people lie.

When it comes to the scriptures, since I know that's where you're getting at, it wasn't man who placed the scriptures in ratios and patterns of 19. It is GOD's scripture, and 50 years ago, men didn't even know about the patterns of 19 throughout the quran. So, it was not humanly composed or structured at all. This was all done 1,400 years ago, when people didn't completely understand the principles of mathematics like they do today. It was GOD who organized the scripture this way, and it was GOD who stated in His quran, "On it is 19." No man did this. So, since numbers don't lie, for you to say that the organization of this pattern to be based on lies, you are actually saying that GOD Himself lied about these numbers, not men. It is either this, or you view GOD to be a god of coincidences, which I also completely disagree with. GOD has numbered and ordered/arranged/organized all things, and there are no coincidences, especially when it comes to His word...

Peace,

Ahmad

ayman

Peace Ahmad,

This is ridiculous. I didn't say anything about organizing the numbers in a way that they would mislead people. I said numbers, generally, do not lie, and that is a true statement. 1+1=2, and this will always be the case, no matter who the unknown factors are. If this is not the case, then show me a way in which 5+5=11. laugh

No 1+1=2 is not always a true statement. It depends on how you use it and on unknown factors. For example

"1 apple + 1 orange = 2 apples" is false.

Even if we are just counting apples, say for the purpose of counting how many we have for food

"1 apple + 1 rotten apple = 2 apples" is also false.

You are again demonstrating your ignorance of basic mathematical concepts. This is not surprising. It is only ignorants in mathematics who are fascinated with "mathematical miracles" such as Code 19.

If someone places factors in order with the intention of misleading, this is not denying the accuracy of mathematics. For example, if you cured 1,000 out of 100,000 people from cancer using some kind of "miracle cure", the FACT is that you cured 1,000 people of cancer. The numbers are not lying at all. What you are doing is concealing the rest of the results with the intention of being misleading. Likewise, if politicians say we grew our economy by 1,000,000,000 pounds/denars/dollars/euros/etc., this is a mathematically correct statement. The numbers are NOT lying at all. It is the politician who has concealed the factors and percentages of these totals, not revealing them to the people.

Exactly. This is precisely like Code 19 hunters concealing their failed trials and not revealing them to the people. If they revealed their failed trials then you would easily see their fraud and the fact that their successful trials are 1 in 19, which is like the normal rate of a placebo.

Only those who are ignorant in mathematics would say things like NUMBERS DO LIE. In reality, numbers don't lie, people lie.

Numbers and letters are used by people to lie. Numbers and letters don't pop up on their own. Saying "numbers don't lie" is as ridiculous as saying "letters don't lie".

When it comes to the scriptures, since I know that's where you're getting at, it wasn't man who placed the scriptures in ratios and patterns of 19. It is GOD's scripture, and 50 years ago, men didn't even know about the patterns of 19 throughout the quran. So, it was not humanly composed or structured at all. This was all done 1,400 years ago, when people didn't completely understand the principles of mathematics like they do today. It was GOD who organized the scripture this way, and it was GOD who stated in His quran, "On it is 19." No man did this. So, since numbers don't lie, for you to say that the organization of this pattern to be based on lies, you are actually saying that GOD Himself lied about these numbers, not men. It is either this, or you view GOD to be a god of coincidences, which I also completely disagree with. GOD has numbered and ordered/arranged/organized all things, and there are no coincidences, especially when it comes to His word...

There is no pattern. You are lying by hiding the failed trials where you didn't get a 19 divisible just like the discoverer of the cancer miracle cure and the politician are lying by hiding their failed trials.

Peace,

Ayman

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Ayman,

No 1+1=2 is not always a true statement. It depends on how you use it and on unknown factors. For example

"1 apple + 1 orange = 2 apples" is false.

Even if we are just counting apples, say for the purpose of counting how many we have for food

"1 apple + 1 rotten apple = 2 apples" is also false.

You are clearly showing your ignorance in basic mathematics, regardless of your level of education. 1+1=2, always and forever. What you're talking about is basing these numbers on unknown factors and variables (i.e. 1a+2b=c). This is a completely different area of discussion.

This is precisely like Code 19 hunters concealing their failed trials and not revealing them to the people. If they revealed their failed trials then you would easily see their fraud and the fact that their successful trials are 1 in 19, which is like the normal rate of a placebo.

This is false. The rate of success depends on the equation they base the pattern on, and this can vary from subject to subject. For example, it doesn't take a bunch of failed trials to realize that the Basmalah contains 19 letters. However, you dispute this by saying this is merely a coincidence... So, we go to the issue of the Arabic words used in the Basmalah occurring a 19-divisible number of times throughout the scripture, and you dispute this as well... So, we determine that the number of chapters in the quran (114) is also 19-divisible, in which you develop a separate line of reasoning by saying that there are only 113 chapters, and chapter 9 is really a continuation of chapter 8... So, we show you the use of the word "GOD" (i.e. "the god&quot, or allah, throughout the quran also being a 19-divisible number. You also credit this as being coincidental... So, we show you the gematrical value of the word "wahed"/one/indivisible (i.e. "GOD is one&quot, and you say this is also coincidental... So, we point out the idea of Mohammed's first revelation containing exactly 19 words, but you say this story is unreliable...

Here are a few others
-The word "quran" occurs in 38 different chapters.
-Within the 114 chapters of the Quran, 29 of them begin with the Quranic initials discussed earlier. Intermixed between the first initialed chapter (2) and the last initialed chapter (6 are 38 non-initialed chapters, which is 19-divisible (19x2).
-From chapter 2 to chapter 68, there are 19 alternating sets of initialed and non-initialed chapters.
-The total number of verses making up this group of chapters is 5263 (19x277).
-Within this group of chapters, there are also 2641 occurrences of the word "allah" (19x139), which leaves 57 (19x4), occurrences of that word outside of this group.
You must think this is some kind of conspiracy or something, right?

My question is this, Brother Ayman how much proof needs to be presented on this issue before you realize it's not coincidental? This is not "chance" or "random" at all; it is occurring within a set pattern. You're just so stubborn regarding these clear proofs, you'd probably still disbelieve if GOD sent the angels themselves to the earth to declare the code's authenticity!

Numbers and letters are used by people to lie. Numbers and letters don't pop up on their own. Saying "numbers don't lie" is as ridiculous as saying "letters don't lie".

First of all, this is OUTRAGEOUS to say the least. Saying "numbers are used by people to lie" is not nearly the same thing as saying "numbers lie". That's ridiculous. NUMBERS DO NOT LIE... Secondly, "letters" are completely arbitrary, and they are not even close to the same concept as numbers. They're recyclable, and a word/letter in one language may mean something completely different in another language. Also, refiguration of numbers in addition and multiplication carries the same result (i.e. 2x3=3x2). This is completely different when it comes to letters, especially in English. To say "pan=nap" is completely false and unreasonable. Numbers are not arbitrary, they're definate. 1+1=2, no matter what language you speak or what culture you come from. How can you even compare these 2 completely different concepts and say they're the same?

You are lying by hiding the failed trials where you didn't get a 19 divisible just like the discoverer of the cancer miracle cure and the politician are lying by hiding their failed trials.

I already told you nobody's hiding failed trials. However, what would be the point of presenting them if submitters already admit to having them? All this does is take up needless amounts of useful space on a computer screen, chalk board, piece of paper, or whatever they decide to write on. Outside of understanding this concept, nobody's hiding anything.

Peace,

Ahmad

ayman

Peace Ahmad,

You are clearly showing your ignorance in basic mathematics, regardless of your level of education. 1+1=2, always and forever. What you're talking about is basing these numbers on unknown factors and variables (i.e. 1a+2b=c). This is a completely different area of discussion.

So you think that 1+1=2 is mathematics while 1a+2b=c is not and is a completely different area of discusion!? If ignorance means disagreeing with your nonsense then I guess it is a good thing.

This is false. The rate of success depends on the equation they base the pattern on, and this can vary from subject to subject. For example, it doesn't take a bunch of failed trials to realize that the Basmalah contains 19 letters. However, you dispute this by saying this is merely a coincidence...

It is not my problem that you ignore that adding the number of letters in a verse is a formula. So please apply this formula to a random sample of the great reading and tell us how many results you get are 19 divisible. If the rate is higher than 1 in 19 then we can talk.

So, we go to the issue of the Arabic words used in the Basmalah occurring a 19-divisible number of times throughout the scripture, and you dispute this as well...

This is false. Even with the Hadith-based deletion of 9128-129, the count of "bism" never adds up to a 19 divisible. There are only 3 "bism" in the entire great reading.

So, we determine that the number of chapters in the quran (114) is also 19-divisible, in which you develop a separate line of reasoning by saying that there are only 113 chapters, and chapter 9 is really a continuation of chapter 8...

This is the only logical possible conclusion if you eliminate the manmade decorations and chapter titles.

So, we show you the use of the word "GOD" (i.e. "the god&quot, or allah, throughout the quran also being a 19-divisible number. You also credit this as being coincidental... So, we show you the gematrical value of the word "wahed"/one/indivisible (i.e. "GOD is one&quot, and you say this is also coincidental...

How come the gematrical value of "bism", "allah", "alrahman", and "alrahim" are not 19 divisible? Do you think that Khalifa didn't try those to see if they are? Of course he did but he is not telling because those are failed trials so instead he digs around for other words knowing that if he keeps looking he will sooner or later find something that is 19 divisible such as "wahed". Also, "wahed" doesn't mean "GOD is one". It is thus used to describe other things such as food in 261.

So, we point out the idea of Mohammed's first revelation containing exactly 19 words, but you say this story is unreliable...

This is entirely Hadith-based conjecture. Like a typical 19er and Khalifa, you hypocritically resort to Hadiths when they suit your purposes.

Here are a few others
-The word "quran" occurs in 38 different chapters.

And its gematrical value is not 19 divisible and its number of occurrences is not 19 divisible. 19ers certainly tried all those trials. So those are all failed trials.

-Within the 114 chapters of the Quran, 29 of them begin with the Quranic initials discussed earlier. Intermixed between the first initialed chapter (2) and the last initialed chapter (6 are 38 non-initialed chapters, which is 19-divisible (19x2).
-From chapter 2 to chapter 68, there are 19 alternating sets of initialed and non-initialed chapters.

On the other hand, 29 chapters that actually have the supposed initials is not a 19 divisible number. The total of the chapter numbers is not 19 divisible either. Etc. Etc. You are again only advertizing the successful trials and hiding the failed trials.

-The total number of verses making up this group of chapters is 5263 (19x277).

But using another popular method that 19ers use the chapter number followed by the number of verses in each chapter is not a 19 divisible. Etc. Etc. You are again only advertizing the successful trials and hiding the many more failed trials.

-Within this group of chapters, there are also 2641 occurrences of the word "allah" (19x139), which leaves 57 (19x4), occurrences of that word outside of this group.
You must think this is some kind of conspiracy or something, right?

Within this group of chapters, the number of occurrences of the words "rahman", "rahim", and "bism" is not 19 divisible and occurrences of those words outside of this group is also not 19 divisible!
You must think this is some kind of conspiracy or something, right?

My question is this, Brother Ayman how much proof needs to be presented on this issue before you realize it's not coincidental? This is not "chance" or "random" at all; it is occurring within a set pattern. You're just so stubborn regarding these clear proofs, you'd probably still disbelieve if GOD sent the angels themselves to the earth to declare the code's authenticity!

All I need is for you and other 19ers not to hide your failed trials and honestly show everyone the whole truth. We can then objectively decide based on the ratio of success to failure whether there is a pattern or not.

First of all, this is OUTRAGEOUS to say the least. Saying "numbers are used by people to lie" is not nearly the same thing as saying "numbers lie". That's ridiculous. NUMBERS DO NOT LIE... Secondly, "letters" are completely arbitrary, and they are not even close to the same concept as numbers. They're recyclable, and a word/letter in one language may mean something completely different in another language. Also, refiguration of numbers in addition and multiplication carries the same result (i.e. 2x3=3x2). This is completely different when it comes to letters, especially in English. To say "pan=nap" is completely false and unreasonable. Numbers are not arbitrary, they're definate. 1+1=2, no matter what language you speak or what culture you come from. How can you even compare these 2 completely different concepts and say they're the same?

They are the same. They are all manmade ways of representing knowledge. You can also say one plus one equal two. Thus like letters are different in various languages, numbers are also different in different languages and numerical systems. Thus, the number two in a tally system is represented as 11 (instead of 2), which is eleven in a base-ten system. It is going to be also represented differently in a binary numbering system, etc.

You don't seem to grasp the fact that numbers such a 9.8m/s^2 are merely manmade knowledge representations just like letters. Thus, 9.8m/s^2 is a manmade representation of gravity. It is not gravity. Do you see the difference?

I already told you nobody's hiding failed trials. However, what would be the point of presenting them if submitters already admit to having them? All this does is take up needless amounts of useful space on a computer screen, chalk board, piece of paper, or whatever they decide to write on. Outside of understanding this concept, nobody's hiding anything.

These are all lame excuses. If you are not hiding the failed trials then simply show them. Computer storage space is the cheapest commodity in existence. You can get a Terabyte (that's 1000GB) of storage for under $100 nowadays. All the successful trials of 19ers won't even take even a few MBs and the failed trials are probably going to be 18 times that size. So all in all we are talking about far less than 1GB of storage. Again, notice that you don't contest the fact that you have many failed trials (because this is indisputable) but instead contest my request to honestly share them.

Peace,

Ayman

Raj-ah

ayman
This is entirely Hadith-based conjecture. Like a typical 19er and Khalifa, you hypocritically resort to Hadiths when they suit your purposes.

Yes! that is the main problem with Khalifa and his followers; no matter how sincere with Islam they might be. Whole system of 19 is based on a hadith? do we call it hippocracy or what?

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Raj-ah,

That is the main problem with Khalifa and his followers; no matter how sincere with Islam they might be. Whole system of 19 is based on a hadith? do we call it hippocracy or what?

Wow... laugh Which hadith, then, speaks of the code 19? Have you seen any? Or are you speaking about that in which you have no knowledge? The quran itself is what draws submitters to the "code 19" concept. Alquran plainly says On it is nineteen. (7430) So, what do you think this scripture is referring to? And please show me a hadith when it predicts the code 19 concept.

Peace Ayman,

So you think that 1+1=2 is mathematics while 1a+2b=c is not and is a completely different area of discusion!? If ignorance means disagreeing with your nonsense then I guess it is a good thing.

Where did I say that equation is not mathematical? I didn't say that at all. I simply said that it's a different area of study, leaned towards unknown factors and variables. Your disagreement of that truth in that matter only shows your mathematical ignorance.

This is false. Even with the Hadith-based deletion of 9128-129, the count of "bism" never adds up to a 19 divisible. There are only 3 "bism" in the entire great reading.

I never said anything about "bism"; I said "ism"/name.

This is the only logical possible conclusion if you eliminate the manmade decorations and chapter titles.

So, stating that, you're implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved. Over generations, it has always been mentioned that the quran contains 114 chapters, not 114. And even still, you have absolutely no proof of your speculations other than the fact that chapter 9 is missing the Basmalah that is written in all the other chapters. Therefore, your view is baseless. If the quran has not been accurately preserved, then how can you trust in it?

All I need is for you and other 19ers not to hide your failed trials and honestly show everyone the whole truth. We can then objectively decide based on the ratio of success to failure whether there is a pattern or not.

People have already agreed to do that...

They are the same. They are all manmade ways of representing knowledge. You can also say one plus one equal two. Thus like letters are different in various languages, numbers are also different in different languages and numerical systems. Thus, the number two in a tally system is represented as 11 (instead of 2), which is eleven in a base-ten system. It is going to be also represented differently in a binary numbering system, etc.

This is outrageous, brother, and this is ridiculous. Letters are arbitrary; numbers are not arbitrary. If a person writes the word "one" instead of "1", an English-speaking person would say these are the same thing. However, a Spanish-speaking person would say that "one" means "uno". Either way, though, the concepts remain absolute, and they don't change. For example, if a person makes an equation using an American scale (i.e. 2x2=4), it will still be correct when it comes to a tally system (i.e. 11x11=1111).

Peace,

Ahmad

ayman

Peace Ahmad,

So, stating that, you're implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved. Over generations, it has always been mentioned that the quran contains 114 chapters, not 114. And even still, you have absolutely no proof of your speculations other than the fact that chapter 9 is missing the Basmalah that is written in all the other chapters. Therefore, your view is baseless. If the quran has not been accurately preserved, then how can you trust in it?

What hypocrisy! You have the nerve to accuse me of "implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved" when I remove what EVERYONE 100% agrees are the 100% MANMADE page decorations and chapter titles but you removing TWO verses doesn't ""imply that the quran has not been accurately preserved"!

Peace,

Ayman

afridi220

Peace Ahmad,

What hypocrisy! You have the nerve to accuse me of "implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved" when I remove what EVERYONE 100% agrees are the 100% MANMADE page decorations and chapter titles but you removing TWO verses doesn't ""imply that the quran has not been accurately preserved"!

Peace,

Ayman

They have the authority do you have hmm
;D

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Ayman,

What hypocrisy! You have the nerve to accuse me of "implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved" when I remove what EVERYONE 100% agrees are the 100% MANMADE page decorations and chapter titles but you removing TWO verses doesn't ""imply that the quran has not been accurately preserved"!

I'm not trying to attack you or anything, Ayman, so don't assume such. I'm simply telling you what your implications are, regardless of whether they're meant to be presented that way or not... In reality, part of the quran's preservation was the identification of 114 separate chapters of the book, containing a specific number of words, letters, verses, etc. To deny this alleged reality is to imply that the quran has not been entirely preserved. The only way this conclusion can be conquered is by presenting another method to preserving it's authenticity. This is reality... Now, in reality, we know that the quran has been altered by imams and scholars, and there is historical evidence, as well as improper translations, that provide proof for this claim. However, this doesn't mean that it hasn't been adequately preserved; GOD has preserved it in another way... I believe this way to be "code 19". If you believe differently, then state what your opinion is. In what way do you believe GOD preserves His message?

Peace,

Ahmad

Raj-ah

Salaam
Bilal

Wow... Which hadith, then, speaks of the code 19? Have you seen any? Or are you speaking about that in which you have no knowledge? The quran itself is what draws submitters to the "code 19" concept. Alquran plainly says On it is nineteen. (7430) So, what do you think this scripture is referring to? And please show me a hadith when it predicts the code 19 concept.

I will not assume you are pretending.
Just read the following quote specially the one in red.

ayman

What hypocrisy! You have the nerve to accuse me of "implying that the quran has not been accurately preserved" when I remove what EVERYONE 100% agrees are the 100% MANMADE page decorations and chapter titles but you removing TWO verses doesn't ""imply that the quran has not been accurately preserved"!

Dear Bilal, Is it not true that Khalifa was able to formulate his 19 theory only after removal of Two verses? correct me if my information is wrong!
Now if it is correct; my question to you is, where did he got the information; that Two verses were "included" in Quran falsely and were not there originally? now, if you answer this honestly you will understand what I was talking about.

ayman

This is entirely Hadith-based conjecture. Like a typical 19er and Khalifa, you hypocritically resort to Hadiths when they suit your purposes.

Even though my stance on Hadith is quite different from ayman's but here I agree with him.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Raj-ah,

Is it not true that Khalifa was able to formulate his 19 theory only after removal of Two verses? correct me if my information is wrong!

Now if it is correct; my question to you is, where did he got the information; that Two verses were "included" in Quran falsely and were not there originally? now, if you answer this honestly you will understand what I was talking about.

This is false. The hadith is what confirmed the mathematics, not the other way around. All the other proofs presented showed the two verses to be fabricated, and that was confirmed by the hadiths regarding the additions. The mathematics involving 9128 and 129 already showed what the hadith was saying. So, the "code 19" wasn't based on any hadith at all, it was just confirmed by it...

Even though my stance on Hadith is quite different from ayman's but here I agree with him.

In order for you to agree with Ayman on this issue, you'd have to hold the belief that ALL hadiths are fabricated, and none of them have any historical significance... As for me, I believe many, even most, of the hadiths are fabricated, and none of them should be used as a religious source. However, some of them may be accurate in terms of history, especially the ones that don't conflict with the quran, and the text regarding 9128 and 129 present a historical view of the scriptural collection during that time period. Just because it's recorded in the ahadith doesn't automatically make it completely fabricated.

Peace,

Ahmad

khyaletanzim

Dear friends,

I can?t understand that why you people are trying to prove Quran is Word of God or divine when you are disagreeing with one of the basic ideas of Quran.

If Quran is not preserved (In any way) then why God tells himself that no one can change his words and no addition will be possible?

If one says that it was meant for another place where ordinary person can?t reach, even then it will be illogical that God tells a thing which everyone cannot see or reach to.

In my understanding The one who knows, Understand or believes, for him all this debate is useless and Quran itself is useless for others who do not believe.

In my understanding 19ers and hadith groups have the same approach. Both agree that Quran is preserved correctly with few mistakes and cannot be believed and understood by an ordinary person.

Hadith people take the credit of preserving and explaining Quran through hadith.

19ers take credit of preserving by correcting and proving the Quran is divine by miracle 19.

Please look at your illogical behavior. If God cannot do what he say then why to even take that much effort for making others believe that Quran is from God.

Regards.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Khyaletanzim,

I can?t understand that why you people are trying to prove Quran is Word of God or divine when you are disagreeing with one of the basic ideas of Quran.

If Quran is not preserved (In any way) then why God tells himself that no one can change his words and no addition will be possible?

If one says that it was meant for another place where ordinary person can?t reach, even then it will be illogical that God tells a thing which everyone cannot see or reach to.

In my understanding The one who knows, Understand or believes, for him all this debate is useless and Quran itself is useless for others who do not believe.

This is an illogical approach. The Quran says it will not be grasped by those without understanding, wisdom, pure minds/hearts, and GOD's guidance. Also, the stance that GOD's words are unchangeable has absolutely nothing to do with preservation of the Quran, not at all. That is referring to the fulfillment of His words... Regarding the preservation of the message, GOD says He will preserve it, but there is no direct statement declaring how He will do this. It's illogical to assume that He will bestow wisdom upon all of the quranic translators so they can translate the message properly. It's evident that this is not the case because all of the translations are different. There have even been shown clear changes in the Arabic translations/copies of the scriptures, some adding their own personal opinions, others adding words and/or letters into the message, and still some even add or take away words to completely change the meanings of chapters and verses...

Please look at your illogical behavior. If God cannot do what he say then why to even take that much effort for making others believe that Quran is from God.

Considering the true circumstances of the Quran's preservation, your idealogy is illogical. If you believe otherwise, then please give your PERSONAL OPINION on how you believe the Quran was preserved...

Peace,

Ahmad

khyaletanzim

Peace Khyaletanzim,

This is an illogical approach. The Quran says it will not be grasped by those without understanding, wisdom, pure minds/hearts, and GOD's guidance. Also, the stance that GOD's words are unchangeable has absolutely nothing to do with preservation of the Quran, not at all. That is referring to the fulfillment of His words... Regarding the preservation of the message, GOD says He will preserve it, but there is no direct statement declaring how He will do this. It's illogical to assume that He will bestow wisdom upon all of the quranic translators so they can translate the message properly. It's evident that this is not the case because all of the translations are different. There have even been shown clear changes in the Arabic translations/copies of the scriptures, some adding their own personal opinions, others adding words and/or letters into the message, and still some even add or take away words to completely change the meanings of chapters and verses...

Considering the true circumstances of the Quran's preservation, your idealogy is illogical. If you believe otherwise, then please give your PERSONAL OPINION on how you believe the Quran was preserved...

Peace,

Ahmad

Answer is according to what you have said.

your quote

The Quran says it will not be grasped by those without understanding, wisdom, pure minds/hearts, and GOD's guidance.

it is wrongly Quoted because Quran does not say that. Quran says that whole message can only be understood by those with understanding, wisdom, pure minds/hearts, and GOD's guidance.

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace khyaletanzim,

it is wrongly Quoted because Quran does not say that. Quran says that whole message can only be understood by those with understanding, wisdom, pure minds/hearts, and GOD's guidance.

What is the difference in quotes? The quran says people cannot understand the message without understanding, wisdom, pure minds/hearts, and GOD's guidance. There is no need to use outside source to comprehend His message.

Peace,

Ahmad

khyaletanzim

Dear Bilal,

If you read the following verse then you will see that basic verses or message is understandable for all and not by the men of understanding. Wisdom, pure minds/hearts, and God's guidance is only needed when it comes to allegorical verses. In my understanding only the whole message is understood by the above.

37 He it is who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

Your quote

Considering the true circumstances of the Quran's preservation, your ideology is illogical. If you believe otherwise, then please give your PERSONAL OPINION on how you believe the Quran was preserved...

I don?t know what is the true circumstance to you? But to me it is simply that the Quran is preserved without any change in words (not letters) and I can?t find any difference till this day. You may not find it miraculous that with so many sects prevailing yet manuscript of Quran has not been the point of division is a miracle to me. According to my understanding this miracle was possible due to the allegoric verses which allowed all the sects to present their own meanings and they never caught in the idea to change the original manuscript. In my understanding this is the only reason that people of understanding of any age will be able to understand the true message.

Regarding the point that few letters are not same in the preserved original manuscripts is also clarified by those who originally started that question that no basic difference is caused by those differences to the understanding.

Regarding translations of the allegorical verses it is already told in Quran that what kind of people would be able to understand those verses. In my understanding anybody can translate allegorical verses his own way as long as it is from the Arabic.

According to my understanding the following laws are told in Quran to understand Quran and I use these laws to understand its original meanings.

Quran can only be understood using Arabic language. 1337, 1997, 26195 and 4458
Quran is the message for all humans and not for the Muslims alone.(basic is for all) 17106, 1854, 3058, 3428, 5417
One cannot leave parts of Quran to understand the message of Quran completely. 20114, 285
No contradictions in Quran. 482
One must ask for the protection Of God from Satan before reading the Quran. 1698

Regards.

afridi220

Peace all

Some where i asked WHY SATANIC VERSES ARE NOT REMOVED while hadiths of Al tabari, Ibn Sad and Ibn Waqit caled Sura najim from 5319-22 satanic verses but no response so for if hadith are to be cbelieve and confirmed by code 19 then remove them too '( >D rotfl

Ahmad_Bilal

Salaam Khyaletanzim,

If you read the following verse then you will see that basic verses or message is understandable for all and not by the men of understanding. Wisdom, pure minds/hearts, and God's guidance is only needed when it comes to allegorical verses. In my understanding only the whole message is understood by the above.

37 He it is who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except God. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding.

This is incorrect. The Quran explains throughout it that one must have more than just understanding of the Arabic language to grasp the message. Understanding is necessary to comprehend the scriptures, but wisdom, a pure mind/heart, and GOD's guidance is necessary to grasp it as well, even the verses with established meanings. Without possessing all of these factors, the person is viewed as misguided, and the Quran says that Allah has literally shielded their minds and hearts to prevent them from understanding the message...

I dont know what is the true circumstance to you? But to me it is simply that the Quran is preserved without any change in words (not letters) and I cant find any difference till this day. You may not find it miraculous that with so many sects prevailing yet manuscript of Quran has not been the point of division is a miracle to me. According to my understanding this miracle was possible due to the allegoric verses which allowed all the sects to present their own meanings and they never caught in the idea to change the original manuscript. In my understanding this is the only reason that people of understanding of any age will be able to understand the true message.

This is also incorrect. The Quran has been changed many times, even the Arabic copies, and this topic has been discussed on here several times as well. There was even a thorough study done by a group of submitters to see how much the Quran has actually changed over the years, and the information is very interesting and informative...

http//www.submission.org/quran/protect.html

Regarding translations of the allegorical verses it is already told in Quran that what kind of people would be able to understand those verses. In my understanding anybody can translate allegorical verses his own way as long as it is from the Arabic.

This is completely ridiculous. Understanding the Quran has absolutely nothing to do with being proficient in Arabic language. Although understanding the language may help in reading and recitation of the scriptures, it is GOD Himself who teaches it's meanings (551-4; 7518, 19). It also says that it is a "guidance and a healing" for Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, and language is irrelevant (4144). So, regardless of your understanding of the language, the scriptures state exactly who will be able to understand the message

None can grasp it except the sincere. (5679)

Peace,

Ahmad

khyaletanzim

Dear Bilal,

I simply can?t understand that if it is my explanation or your understanding which has the problem. I will try once again to make you clear my understanding in simple way.

I have never said that Quran can be understood by Arabic language only nor I have said that it can be understood without reading it. You can?t understand the simple fact that Arabic is the only means and necessity when it comes to dialogue or when one wants to explain it. What we are doing here is simply explaining our understanding with translations of the verses.

Can you explain to me what do you understand by this ayah. None can grasp it except the sincere. (5679)

Please answer the following Questions.

Who will be able to tell who is sincere? You or the God?
Here God is saying about the whole of Quran or the clear or established ayahs?
do you think that the verses where God tells that it is in Arabic language is because maybe someone who reads may not know that Quran is in which language?
Can you tell me how do you understand the Quran?
Can you tell where do you apply your formulas or understanding to prove Quran's divinity?

My dear believe the simple fact that it is only due to Arabic language. Regarding the sincerity nor me nor you can decide whose understanding is correct. It is only God who can tell and he does not come down to clarify.

?Understanding is necessary to comprehend the scriptures, but wisdom, a pure mind/heart, and GOD's guidance is necessary to grasp it as well, even the verses with established meanings.?

According to my understanding you have answered it yourself here and then denied it at another point. My dear I don?t know how you understand the Gods system but to me if he does not let us understand then how can he make us accountable.

To you maybe God has some special way of giving understanding but to me God give understanding to those who do the Good deeds. According to my understanding Allah only shields the heart of those who keep on repeating bad deeds or keep on denying the clear verses.

Quran has been tried to change but always their try was exposed so try is not called changing. Show me not in museum but publicly accepted different versions by major sects with words changed not some letters. All those Ahadith lovers and 19ers are not able to do that by creating every kind of proof by themselves. If God would allow such an act successful then Quran will lose its genuineness.

It also says that it is a "guidance and a healing" for Arabic and non-Arabic speakers, and language is irrelevant (4144). So, regardless of your understanding of the language, the scriptures state exactly who will be able to understand the message

To you it may be irrelevant but in my understanding I have been able to understand it through the translations and looking into the literal meanings of the words used. To you may be God have chosen himself to explain it to you or maybe a special medium which I know not. I am sorry if that is the case.

Without Language no one can understand anything according to my understanding. I don?t know about you though.

Regards.

Raj-ah

dear Ahmed Bilal
you said;

This is false. The hadith is what confirmed the mathematics, not the other way around. All the other proofs presented showed the two verses to be fabricated, and that was confirmed by the hadiths regarding the additions. The mathematics involving 9128 and 129 already showed what the hadith was saying. So, the "code 19" wasn't based on any hadith at all, it was just confirmed by it..

Now you are commiting a crime, in one of your previous post you accused me of not having the knowldge about what i am talking, that was excusable but deliberate lie is not!

You can may be confuse those or impress those who have not read Rashad in detail; but sorry not me.

I have said this before and i repeat, no doubt whatever the contributions of Rashad Khalifa for Islam might be; but his removal of two verses, his alteration of Quran, his assigning him as a messanger of Allah undermines all his goodness.

He writes "Nineteen years after the Prophet death, some scribes infected two false verses at the end of sura 9.? And further on says ?One of the scribes suggested adding a couple of verses to honour the Prophet?.
Surely, he cannot be referring to the same Quran and the same scribes portrayed by God in Sura 80 verse 1 5- 1 6 as ... an honourable
Scripture. Exalted and pure. Written by the hands of scribes. Who are honourable and righteous?

Now note his words "some scribes infected two false verses at the end of surah 9" this is the story "Hadith" which is narrated through different chains. So he is not basing his proof from Quran but from Hadith because says exactly opposite as I quoted above. Further Quran says

`We are in charge of putting it together in to Quran'. Sura 75.17

`Surely, we sent down this message, and surely, we will preserve it'.
Sura 15.9

`No falsehood can ever enter it, in the past or in the future; for it is a revelation from God, most wise, praiseworthy?. Sura 41.42

and even after reading this if you do not open your eyes then you are committing a crime. What Rashad is doing is to prove his 19 miracle is totally against Quran and within perfect harmony to Hadith. Then there is no doubt left that Rashad based his 19 miracle on a Hadith that from all angles is against the Quran.

Rashad is supposed to have made his "Miraaj" in 1971, where he met with all the prophets and bla bla.......his first translation came out in 1981 in which there is no mention of his messangership but in the last translation of 1992 his name takes the place of Muhammad in certain places.

The Quran says `Who is more evil than one who invents lies then attributes them to God, or claim to have received divine revelation when nothing has been revealed'. Sura 6.93