Salam

Salaam,

I once also was overly focused on numbers, even though never completely obsessed, but I really urge people to tone down on that because it is a trap. God may show that The Master was the cause of some good through a subtle way as the show of a number, but it should not be the foundation of faith. With faith you are confident that your prayers will be answered, numbers or not.

And I think that Rashad Khalifa's numerology was just an illusion now since I have realized the verse numbering is a man made insertion.

Have fsith

Could you elaborate more on Quran verse numbering, is it man-made? This subject is still not clear for me. Thanks

I agree that God do not have to communicate in numbers, as in Qur'an giving examples that God spoke through inspiration.

Anyhow I still can't really conclude since there is an ayah also mentioned about signs for the believers. And I forgot the ayah already and not sure if this coincidence means the signs too?

And I try to rid away from obsession, as it is Satan's tool.

I might try to note down how often this incidence occurs, just for the mathematical and statistical purpose, see what I got later D

Salam BornAgain,
yg ini tho?
http//allah-semata.org/forum/index.php
sip..ntar di browse..inshaallah

Iya maaf baru ngeh ini yg dimaksud BornAgain, saya pernah join diisitu, tapi sepi sekali ;D

Hi Donnyw
Your quote above is interesting for me as I have started to feel exactly the opposite of what you have mentioned i.e. Earlier, from a so called religious person, I feel these days that that the real reason why I am being here on earth (so this life is actually what I never thought before) is actually about living as good, kind person and it is actually seems to be enough for me these days. Seems I am going in a wrong direction!!

This is what I have been thinking earlier and despite changing my focal point a number of times, I feel getting nowhere!!

Salam and welcome

Salam Patanahi, thank you for your reply and wish God bless you more.

Just to convey my opinion, all 'religions' including 'Islam' which is believed by most people right now emphasizes of effort to be kind and good person and they said this is the true goal of living in this world.

I dont say that it is incorrect, but it is not enough.

Remember in AlBaqarah Allah said there are 3 minimum criteria of being a true believer who will go to heaven.

1. Believe in Allah
2. Believe in the Judgement day
3. Doing righteous work

So being kind, good person qualify us for some part of no 3, hence to be righteous not only being kind, good, just, fair people, but we also know that it is also to observe salat, zakat etc. There is purpose of that, and eventually it is clear the command of the 'rituals' is indeed to make a person to have a strong and good characters.

Anyhow how about point 1 and 2? Eventually being righteous (no 3) only is not enough to meet those two other important criteria, because that is the life is about, earth wasn't created by God for no reason, God can keep us in heaven if He only wants us to observe being righteous (point 3), but earth was created because this is a testing ground for not only point 3, but equally if not more important point 1 and 2, which is not possible if no earth in first place, of course if all people is still in Heaven, they know God exist nobody will be atheist or idol worshiper, but in earth we see the true color of human revealed, indeed some of them do not believe God exist at all, some believe but require other person or object to believe (idol worshiper)!

So life in earth will reveal the true color of a person, he can be kind and good people, but deeper in his heart he simply just an opponent of God, how many atheist people that are good people? I believe many of them, but they are just opponent of God.

This is my opinion.

Salam.

But now that nagging skepticism just WON'T go away! It simply won't leave me and allow me to practice Islam in peace! Ramadan is in 3 days. I was excited for Ramadan this year but now I don't even know if I want to do it anymore.

I just don't know anymore!

Brother.. it seems you are in the right direction but you just dont realize it, keep searching and never give up brother, God wants to see how hard your effort is and how sincere you are, eventually if you keep your searching Allah might help you shed the light, insyaAllah.

Many people at a time been in the same situation like you, I was there too, so I know.

Thank you for the answer.

I also like listening to chanting of the Quran, especially since I've heard that some people think it has even soothing affect, even curing effect, like Rukiya and stuff...

But you did not answer my little question )
I would like to ask you a little thing, could you please tell me where did you read those turning point information, and which site it was that moved you to tears? Was it something else, or just MasjidTuscon website?

Thank you.

Glad that you find more knowledge and closer to God brother, may God bless you more.
By the way in my opinion do not concentrate on chanting Quran without you understand or read its translation (meaning). As Quran is actually a guidance, so we should read and learn to understand, I agree in some degree listening to Quran recitation (in Arabic) is soothing, but without really learning it, I believe it is just inviting God's wrath. As God send Quran to be read and learnt.
Also do not believe that Quran can cure or some sort of that, as the cure is coming from Allah only, some people making Quran as magic book instead of learning it.

Yes, the web at MasjidTucson that moved me to tears, because that was when I first realized the real reason why I'm being here in earth, so this life is not what I'm thinking about before, it is not about living as good, kind people as I believed earlier, it is actually not enough, as the real life is about to uphold one god which is God and nothing else, not even the hadith which I came to know are just conjecture. I came to realized that this is crucial part of our life and I cried because God still let me know this knowledge, means God still allow me to repent despite so many sins I have done in the past and neglecting Him.

I dont know if God fully accept my repentance or not, nobody knows, and i realized we also do not know our view is right or wrong, even we dont know whether MasjidTucson website is fully right or many of it has mistakes.

Most important in my opinion, is not to get back to old habit which is to idolize anything, not even idolizing Dr Rashad, not Muhammad, no sect even they claim as Quran alone follower like Submitter, because personality or entity is not important, the most important is the message. They are just human, we can learn but never idolize anything, we get true knowledge only when God allows.

Wish you find more truth brother and share your finding with us.

I disagree because if you take it as only a few people will take guidance/heed (meaning a minority out of a majority), it's entirely different from the quran being for mankind. So, I would correct it's for mankind but only some will understand it as guidance/heed it. It isn't only designed to save some people, only some people will choose to be saved by it. It's designed for mankind, not some people. Nothing can save everyone unless force is involved.

You have some interesting point there. More or less we have similar view I think, but there are some differences I can see.

I dont see that Quran is intended to save everyone for sure, with or without major force, majority wont believe and still be unbelievers. This is a fact told in Quran. The only thing can change them if only God wish, but God decide to leave them their way, so this is not going to happen (again).

I said again, this is because from Quran we knew God actually has pardoned us all once before once due to His Mercy, all single human without exclusion has received His forgiveness before and given second chance now in this earth. And everyone of us had bear witness that no god beside God before we sent down to earth. So we can't say that we never been guided. Indeed all human has received some guidance before, every single of us no matter he is now believer or unbeliever or atheist, agnostic etc.

So Quran (and other previous scriptures) are another guidance sent to us but this time on earth, so God never leaves human without a guidance or a clue at all time. Anyhow this time the guidance must be seek, instead this time is a real test, which separating real believers and unbelievers. So God do not expect the majority to follow the guidance in Quran, instead God sent it as a test to see who the believers are. And God fully knows who they are even before all this started, we are going through living in earth here just because all need to go through a test which all recorded, and this record contain our final standing which will be bring to court on judgement day, so nobody can object anything anymore because there is record, but God knows the result of all these beforehand.

So, with this knowledge, majority of people will go to hell despite warning from scripture and all effort to change them, and in fact the opposite, those unbelievers are made as sample and lesson for those who wish to read/follow Quran. They are just condemned, instead God mocked them in Quran, they will never be guided because their own rejection, not because God doesn't provide guidance.

The God's grand plan in this earth is not to save humanity, something most people thought it is, indeed most human will be banished forever in hell as told by Quran. So the grand plan is just to filter out and collect prove (record) to be brought on judgement day for each individual stand, what is his final decision on God, whether still putting doubt on Him or repent and accept Him completely.
The final result of this earth living, is the minority of believers which God wish to get the result out of this grand plan.

So my opinion about Quran, I can see Quran is guidance who can witnessed by all humanity, but it is a beacon only for the muttaqin, the real reason why this earth created in fist place.

That is how I see Quran position, correct me if I'm wrong.

Peace...

Salaam Johan dan Donny,

Wuaaahhh ada lagi orang Indonesia di Free Minds. Met kenaaal! Kalian aktif juga di FAS engga?

Salam BornAgain, FAS apaan tuh?

thank you good logic, Godsubmitter and BornAgain.

Yes my life changed drastically after I got married, I felt getting married was a huge blessing for me, I was living in other country previously and living like hell, I meant lot of stress, due to work (business) and relationship, I kept questioning the quality of my life that time, I never prayed, never do anything righteous, I was really ashamed of my life, felt it wasn't me.

Then I got back and met my wife, a friend form from my childhood, and just deciding to marry her and never get back to that other country anymore.

After I got married things turned the opposite, I starting seeing that my life has purpose lol, and most important made me closer to God.

My wife is now following Quran alone too, I almost preached to her till she gets boring everyday. At first she had a little interest, until one day she saw on TV (which specially aired Quran recitation and translation) and she found that what I've told her indeed there.

In our custom, Quran is not to be read (its translation), but to recite like singing, to understand its meaning is not necessary, even most believe reading the translation by ourselves is not good because we must learn from the expert to know the meaning, BornAgain must know this as we at the same country D

Finally I see it clearly written, what I always somehow felt! That the Quran is for a few chosen ones ONLY!

Glad that you see it as well brother, how can most people miss it? 22 It is the opening verse of the Quran after Al-fatihah!

22 This is the Book about which there is no doubt, a guidance for the muttaqin.

It is NOT a guidance for all human... ;D

But you see, the Quran itself talks about the provocation of miracle 19, and I am still utterly confused, not knowing Arabic, because some people translate and interpret the Qur'an's warning about the 19 in totally opposite ways!!!
(I am talking about Surah 7430)

Peace brother Godsubmitter,

What you said is also true for me, I tried to follow their logic (folks who interpret 7430 in opposite way), anyhow I just felt that the interpretation has some flaw on it. For example if 19 is simply the number of angels guarding hell, how it could make a difference than 19thousand or 19billions angels? God said the number is a test for disbeliever, so perhaps disbeliever will be convinced if the number of angels is 19trillions-zillions instead? ;D

Their interpretation just doesn't make sense to me. Because even any number of angels wont matter for disbeliever. So that is the exact reason why disbeliever will ask "What God means by this alegory" because they just dont understand why the number of angels matter. Opponent in this forum tend to mock this miracle of 19, they believe that God refer to 19 angels only. But inside their deepest heart they kept asking themselves... why 19 angels really matter? confused

Also 19 angels is supposed to strengthen our faith, how it can strengthen our faith? For example I dont find 18 angels or 20 angels will not strengthen my faith me but 19 angels miraculously will! What is the big difference between 18, 19 and 20 angels? This is something that the opponent of miracle 19 (the number itself not the angels) find very hard to answer.

• 19 angels - bring confusion, wondering, defy common sense.... why it really matters?
• 19 (as the number itself) - bring intelligent question, intriguing discovery, wonderful finding.

Sorry for the bold and font color, just dont want you to missed it D

It seems almost every single messenger has failed somehow in spreading their message. All the messengers were received poorly by their people they were sent to warn and the book giving prophets spawned false religions that changed the word of God for the word of men.

God fully knows that messengers and scripture will be mocked-up, He let it happen!
The people who changed it and their followers are the best example of liars and disbelievers whom God intend to show us (the next generations).

So Quran is not like some cult religion who guarantee all human to be saved by it and all those sweet polishing words full of promises. Instead Quran is a test, a filter that will separates the liars and the sincere.

Quran is not intended to be a beacon to save all humanity, instead it is designed to save few people only (righteous people), read 22.

So Quran is entirely a different concept of 'scripture' that you might think.

Thank you @savage_carrot!

I appreciate very much your sincerity and your confession

I might re-evaluate Mr Khalifa's ideas and message again, because I consider them the best acceptable stand for the relationship with God in the computer age.

God is running everything sun

Good to know this, I personally think Dr Rashad's idea is the most outstanding, and miracle of 19 is really shining. Some people try to disregard this miracle, but so far none convince me yet, because just by simple counting in Quran manually, I actually find that this is true.

And indeed this 19 miracle is THE foundation that brought Dr Rashad to conclusion that we must follow Quran alone, his idea spread and start the Quran alone trend in the world.

Ironically, now the people who quickly reject miracle 19 without deeper research, was actually brought to Quran alone by the miracle of 19 itself.

Salam Bender, glad to meet you handshake

Instinctively people should know about God, satan, and rituals like salat and zakat? As in a child who grows up in the jungle without any human interaction should know these things without ever being told?

I seriously doubt that.

Yeah it is strange but there is evidence, you can read Thomas Hamblin book 'Dynamic Thought', he found that there is a Universal Mind (God) the omnipresence, omnipotence and the source of all goodness that control everything.

He also found that we need to have special time every day to meditate and remembering, he said around 6 and 9 a.m. and 9 and 1130 p.m. (like Subuh and Dzuhur prayer?), also special time at night. How the hell he find that, he didn't even knew Quran.

He also found that someone else along us (satan) which need to get rid of by solely on positive though and constant remembering on God (similar like zikr), and he think charity is necessary to attain a better character (like zakat).

You will be amaze how the close similarity between his finding and Quran practice/ritual told by God, and he got all that by experiences only!

I know you wont believe it... but I just mention it, maybe you can learn something.

If you were born in a world where nobody practiced religion and religious dogma didn't exist why would you ever believe in heaven, hell, or judgment? What would make you come to that conclusion without some sort of precedent for your beliefs?

I believe the answer is Yes. Decades ago I have seen people who live in remote jungle in a part of my country, which up to now still exist (though they are modernized now). They were not even touched by civilization, still wearing animal skin, leaves or some sort of that. And these people actually believe in God!

I also read one of Hamblin book. He is not a Muslim, nor he ever learnt Quran or anything, but he found by his own experience that there is Universal Mind (God) and there is another entity inside us who always against goodness (satan), and to get rid of this he do some practice like meditation to remember God in early morning (when wake up), in the middle of the day, and at noon, at night. Just like Salat.
He also emphasize the importance of charity or what we know as Zakat, and he also believe that we solely depend on God, just like what God told us as Muslim. And up to his death I believe he never read Quran. All his suggestion in his book are nearly identical with Quran teaching, all he knew by his experiences only.

I believe sincerity matter, instinctively man should now that there is God and knows that satan exist, eventually sincere people will know that there are rituals (Salat, Zakat) etc without even learning from scriptures.

So many people even without scripture choose to believe, while some people who given scripture in front of them choose to disbelieve.

God said their god is not God, but their Ego. So dont say you believe in God if you reject his guidance, your god must be your Ego.

Hello @donnyw, you seem to be a very good pupil of late Mr. Rashad Khalifa, PhD

Hello Godsubmitter, I dont know Dr Rashad personally and when I read his articles he already passed away, anyhow I dont consider myself his pupil, as true believer we should be only pupil of Allah. Anyhow I admit that his idea bring me to Quran alone, and I believe in 19 miracle and agree with many of his view which I can verify in Quran myself.

To me, the only tangible proof that the Quran was from God, was the 19-miracle, until I realized that any outstanding Jewish Kabbalist or Gematria expert could produce it as well, not to mention any contemporary computer nerd. But even that 19-miracle was disproved, or shown as fraud, by many threads in this Forum, from Arab-speaking people. Perhaps they saved me time to check it for myself.

To me, there are lot of tangible proof that Quran from God, so even let say there is no miracle of 19, I still find Quran offer many miracles which now some has been proven by science. But even if no proof that I can witness of, I will still follow Quran and believe it from God, as God said in Quran, for real believer they will know this Quran like his own child, so this give us hint that even without any proof or miracle, any real believer will know that Quran contain the truth from God. Probably that just the instinct.

I'm interested to know if you can give me link to Jewish Kabalist or Gematria expert that can produce something similar like miracle of 19, or any book that has distinct numerical or numbering such Quran who has word of month 12 times and word of days 365 times, something like that if you will. I want to learn more.

...Perhaps they saved me time to check it for myself.

Well, have you forgot the rule of thumb Never believe anything until you check yourself?
I strongly suggest you to check and verify all so called proof and information yourself, as it can be the matter of heaven and hell.
Just my 2cents.

Thanks!

Brother Faithfull Jinn, I was about to edit my post and insert more explanation to support my opinion, but the time has expired to edit, so here I post again the one I already edited, discard the previous post. Thanks!

So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?

Dear Faithful Jinn,

InsyaAllah I have the answer for you, this is a bit long but hopefully you can get something from it.

God is the key, but how do you find God and God's whereabout? How do you meet him directly to ask Him what to do in this life? No you wont be able to do that, God is unlike His creation, we can't meet Him or see Him physically, remember when David (if i'm not mistaken) wants to see God physically? Mountains was crushed even before God show Himself, he fell unconscious.

The existence of God is so powerful that even earth itself cannot withstand, this is information was told in Quran. So we have to accept that we can only see God in hereafter only.

Remember, there is verse saying that all heavens and earth (all 7 layers of universes) all in God's right hand, when you know how enermous this universe we know, and what science able to know/observe so far only 1st layer, you can't even imagine how big is 2nd layer, and how big is 3rd, 4rd, 5th, 6th, and last 7th universe is. Your mind just cant comprehend!

And now those 7 universes are in God's right hand, not in both hands you mind, there is a big different on that, but in one hand only, now you now Who you are dealing with! Allah is so big even beyond our comprehension. We realize now how powerful is God and how tiny we are.

Many of us demanding God to show proof or miracle otherwise we dont believe in scripture or anything that God sent. We dont realize that even the scripture is actually is a toned-down version of God's knowledge designed in such way that can be comprehended by human weak eyes and mind only.
God is able to provide much more sophisticated scripture if he wants just to show how powerful He is, but then most human then wont understand, so no point to do that, but most human just dont know it about.

God knows and control every atoms in this universe, it is not difficult for him to create a most impresive book for human and makes them all convert to believers, but if God intend to convert all human He just said 'be it' and done! It is not difficult for Him.

Human think God should pamper them all the way, it is not the fact of life. We are here because we are tested, the winner (very small minority) are the one who uphold what God commanded (of course Quran), and majority will end-up in Hell fro the gross sin they have did in the past and FAIL to think and repent in this SECOND chance!

So dont blame God if most people destined to Hell, they have been PARDONED before but they repeat the same mistake. They are the one insist on going to hell.

Back to Quran, some people think that Quran should be understood by their straight logic, so if not 'logical' they discard it.
Do you remember back in few centuries ago when all people think the earth was flat? Even the people in prophet era think the same way, WHY they didn't know that earth is round despite that the Quran clearly gives a hint on that?

WHY only this recent years people understand the verse that related to Big Bang?

Sure because human LOGICAL thinking is limited by his own knowledge and what era he lives, so it is really a flaw to just believe our own logic, this is a fact you can't deny! We might find what is true today might be false tomorrow!

So we are sometime hopeless when we realized that and do not know what to do, I understand what you thinking now, I have been there before. Until I realized that the answer is just there lying in front of our eyes.

As God said only the real believer will be able to see the proof and guidance in it. if God said it then it should be true! So Not all believers will be able to understand, even the believers in the highest level must not understand all 100%, God knows that of course, so the idea is not to be the most intelligent creature ever, but be smart enough to figure what is this life is about, and what to follow and do, simple. But not so simple for most people.

That is not a blind faith by the way, in fact it is the opposite, intelligent in religion can be only attained when using reason, so this is not about discarding logic mind you, in fact using it, find the proof as the proof is everywhere. With the advance of science we know now that many verses in Quran is true, this is the intelligent I'm talking about, but sadly people do not even look around them, they have limited view and when they dont understand Quran they blame it that it doesn't fit logic.

You might ask, WHY many intelligent people fail to understand Quran? I have the answer;

Do you remember the reason why satan banished from heaven and destined to hell? They dare to object God's command. WHY? Satan was one of most powerful creature in heaven, yet he failed, WHY?

Yes because satan has arrogance! they dont want to do what Gold told them, because their arrogance (Ego) prevent them to.

This is a lesson for us, the real cause people do not understand Quran is because the human tendency which is Arrogance (Ego) just like Satan, in fact Quran command us to remove our ego, so this gives us the answer.

So in my opinion, we must have to really questioned ourselves, are we really sincere with God?

I have provided you the story above, in summary we can't depend on (flaw) logic alone, and shall avoid arrogance, the only cure is sincere at heart, and that is EXACTLY God said in Quran, only the sincere will understand Quran, if God said that will you not believe?

We are responsible to help yourselves. If we fail to learn anything from Quran, we are the sole cause of our failure because our own ignorance and arrogant, not God.

That is the key of this life.

Now your question about slavery.

I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.

But a lot of the spiritual aspects speak to me deeply and I'm not sure if I can believe that we don't have souls or there isn't some kind of God.

Do you know that slavery is practised and considered normal even until 19-20th century? Remember how Americans brought slaves from Africa? You were talking about Quran who sent down 1400 years ago, where slavery should much normal than 19-20th century.

God doesn't intend to prohibit slaves outright that time (few centuries ago) just like that, people will not accept, God knows that. People is so sticked to norm in the era they live, even the people at that time consider slaves is ok for sexual pleasure too!! This is not what God condone, BUT it is the FACT of that time!

Remember again that world was flat according to people in the past, when God said that earth is like egg, nobody even notice or agree! God indeed prohibit slavery, but people do not notice, only this recent age that we know slavery is not good, only this 21th century we know the term of HUMAN'S RIGHT!

So does God condone slavery? Remember God in Qur'an told us in many verses to free slaves!! This is the clue I'm talking above, God doesn't like slavery. But only us, the people in this recent century only UNDERSTOOD this. Not even people in early 20th century understood this, let alone people in 1400 years ago!

I hope the above shed some light and help you to learn something.

So is GOD the key or is QURAN the key?

I think some of the things the Quran says is bulls*** like condoning slavery and allowing sex with female slaves.

But a lot of the spiritual aspects speak to me deeply and I'm not sure if I can believe that we don't have souls or there isn't some kind of God.

I just don't know what to do right now.

On the one hand a lot of things about Islam resonate deeply with me. On the other hand a lot of it feels like bullshit too.

There can never be a way to truly know who is right or wrong in this world.

Dear brother,

God is the key, but how do you know God whereabout? How do you meet him asking Him what to do? No you wont be able to do that, God is unlike His creation, we can meet Him or see Him physically, remember when David (if i'm not mistaken) wants to see God physically? Mountains was crushed even before God show Himself, he fell unconscious.

So God knows that human wants His words, human need proof, human need guidance, so that is Quran all about.

Now your question about slavery.

Do you know that slavery is practised and considered normal even until 19-20th century? Remember how Americans brought slaves from Africa? You were talking about Quran who sent down 1400 years ago, where slavery should be normal, much normal than 19-20th century.

God doesn't intend to prohibit slaves outright that time few centuries ago just like that, people will protest that because it is common at that time, even the people consider slaves is ok for sexual pleasure too... at that time remember that.! God knows slavery will cease to exist at 20th century, here we are... BUT Qur'an in many verses God said to free slaves!! So this us clue that God doesn't like slavery!

How you can say Allah permitted slavery? If you read Quran the answer is clear.

Indeed human who made slavery exist, and God told human to free slaves in Quran, that is clear indication.