Peace,

Thank you all for your additional input.

I'm not sure how you are reaching that conclusion.

I think this brings up a good point.

I'm thinking now that perhaps raising children well could, possibly, be a pre-condition for doing good to parents. Otherwise, if a person doesn't raise their children well at all, then how are they deserving of receiving good treatment?

--

More thoughts

I also think about other verses which say that one cannot use their children for their own gain or to save themselves (5817, 7011 - I'm sure there are more) prove that we are all responsible for ourselves. of course, and we will all stand on our own, no matter if we've raised children or not.

I find the following verse concerning

985 And do not be impressed by their wealth and their children; God only wishes to punish them with it in this world, and so their souls will be taken while they are rejecters.

People are punished by their children? ???

--

Additional and intriguing verses on children that I've come across -

6140 "Losers are those who have killed their children foolishly, without knowledge..."

The next two I am quite fond of, at the end of 411 "...Your parents and your children, you do not know which are closer to you in benefit - a directive from God, for God is Knowledgeable, Wise."

4135 "O you who have believed, be persistently standing firm in justice, witnesses for Allah , even if it be against yourselves or parents and relatives."

So I suppose 4135 could be the verse that states pretty clearly, IMO, that parents can't be unjust to their children. But perhaps it's first better to define what "just" means, to really understand what parents/people can and can't do.

Anyways. peace

Good intake on verse 4135, sister.

God states in 6415 that our wealth and our children are a test / trial for us.

And like with every trial, some succeed and some fail.

Some parents might mess up their kid?s psychological and physical development with scars that might mark them for life.

This video explains (in a funny way) how that can be made

https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mLLP5eWeJIA

In the Quran 1880 there is also the opposite example a child that would have made his believing parents' life painful with his disbelief and thus God sent a prophet to kill him at a young age. (the story starts at 1860)

Just my 2 cents on the subject, God Knows best !

peace,

Re 1)
I am simply saying that based on the information we have, there are differences in terms of collection, so it is not right to equate collection of hadith with collection of quran. I believe there is some Quranic evidence for the writing of revelation, and this has been discussed many times on this forum, I recommend a forum search. I cannot recall the specific verses at the moment.

Re 2) and 3)
You asked how do we know if the tashkeel is correct or not, and I implied that the approach will be similar to how one verifies any truth, and I provided some verse references which discuss how to read/study/verify Quran

Brother Wakas,

I was hoping you would tell me what made you believe that the methodology of assembling the Quran is better than the one with the Hadiths. I hope you understand that logically speaking, the fact that a text auto-certifies its authenticity, it is no certification.

However, I will look into the older posts on this Forum hoping to find the answer to a simple question how, when and by whom the Book that guides the lifes of all muslims was assembled ?

May God guide us all

Hi again,

Tashkil diacritics are added later to "help" pronunciation. There is no doubt about it. I also think they are not necessary if you know the rhythm of the Arabic language Quran uses. I find they may fool us into believing things not true about the ancient pronunciation as it was meant to be pronounced.

The only markers I consider native with the script are the normal dots on the letters and madda. Everything else including hamza are inventions to aid reading. And the interpreters also inserted alifs not native such as is written in the older manuscripts raising suspicion over how things really are.

Be well

Brother Man of Faith,
What I was looking to confirm was the following
Do you approve that the first versions of Quran were 'tashkil'-less ?
if no, please share the evidence.
If yes, you have already agreed that tashkil changes a meaning to its opposite
example 302-3 might mean The Romans has been defeated and they will soon winn. OR The romain have won and they will soon been defeated.

So tashkeel is not simply to help with pronunciation but it is key to understand the meaning !
So please, if you have evidence about when the Quran was received by Mohamed or how it was written down (with or without tashkeel) please share those evidences (no opinions) with us.

May God guide us all

Ok. Sorry, Hannibal. I did figure that maybe you were not serious, but I brought my answer anyway.

The situation for gays is better than it once was, but obviously there is still a lot to be desired in ways of amnesty for those individuals. It is often religious nutjobs who drive this hatred towards these people and families with low education and traditional values.

It is hard for me to express myself lacking deep insight into the brainworks of a homosexual, but many if not most are born with this attraction innately and cannot be helped. Yet if it was a sin it is up to the person to deal with the question him or herself without being mistreated. It seems like that you were going to say to a heterosexual man or woman that you are no longer allowed to have your current gender identity but need to play another.

Regarding being flirted with by other men is a bit uncomfortable though, but probably because it feels wrong. I know cases where the gay has flirted with the wrong guy and gotten beaten up. I would not though. I am not homophobic, but I suppose you can understand me.

Be well

No harm taken brother Man of Faith.

As to my fellow human beings brothers and sisters, I respect them no matter the attributes they did not choose (gender, sexual identity, sexual orientation, skin color..) and the ones they do choose (political views, religion, philosophical opinions..) group

In the end, God is the only Judge and one must not have the pretence of knowing what is reserved for everyone of us.

On a side note, do you often get hit on ? D

May God guide us all

I think it might continue, with people looking down at the people in hell and saying "they were homosexuals"

449 "Have you not seen those who claim themselves to be pure? Rather, Allah purifies whom He wills, and injustice is not done to them, as much as a thread ."

Hannibal,

It was at the end of Abraham Lincolns life before his murder in the mid 1800's. The exact year of the murder and abolishment I cannot recall. I think Lincoln was murdered in the 1860's right after the end of the Civil War. It was mainly due to disappointment about the abolishment that Lincoln was murdered.

Be well

Peace Man of Faith,

I was (trying to be) sarcastic by saying it has been long enough (2 decades as you mentioned) since slavery was abolished and still the condition of african americans in the USA is still very hard. Thus, legalizing gay marriage won't by magic end discrimination against gay people.

Hannibal,

Without the dots, e.g. it is nearly impossible to know which letter and pronunciation it is for even a skilled reader. I highly doubt it ever was so. There had to be some difference. I suppose in purely stylistic works they may have removed the dots on the letters, but that was merely for decoration.

But otherwise diacritics such as these are inventions , but clearly appears to be original since it gives emphasis on the language when the speaker wants to highlight on something in a context by holding on to the letter through pronunciation. Compare it to word stress.

I have seen fairly old texts that retain dots on letters.

Be well

Peace Man of Faith,

As an arabic speaker, i couldn't agree more about the difficulity of reading arabic text without the dots and the vowels.
This is the reason that pushes me to understand when the 'tashkil' of the Quran was made ?

Take a look at what is considered the oldest version of Quran
http//www.masress.com/dostor/28861 (no tashkil)

The page is in arabic but your can simply type an image search with 'oldest copy of Quran'.

May God guide us all

Peace Wakas,

Re 1)
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9601390.msg263468#msg263468

Basically you're saying we should trust the methodology for assembeling the Quran simply because it is written in the Quran certifies its own authenticity and because the majority of muslims didn't question it ? ???

About the Quran being written down under the supervision of the Messenger Mohamed, is there any proof to this either from history or the Quran ?

Re 2)
How does one verify a truth? This is the same way in which to verify Quran
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597396.msg191658#msg191658

I totally agree with your post; God's signs are everywhere.
Howerver I don't see how this responds to the issue of 'tashkil' = dots + vowels

Re 3)
http//www.quran434.com/study-method.html

Thanks for the link peace

Re 4)
http//free-minds.org/mumins (perhaps one of the most important articles on this site)

That was an interesting read. It makes a lot of sense to me.
Thanks a lot for the recommandation.

May God guide us all

Peace all,

I was glad they finally legalized it.
On the other hand, I don't think homophobia will cease.
Laws don't have such a power.
Just take a look at the condition african americans.
How long has it been since they abolished slavery ?

All diacritical markers are later additions, except for the madda (&#1570 and the dots on letters, e.g. .

Many copies of Quran have alifs inserted too that are not original, e.g. in the real version does not have an alef and is . It was likely added to "help" pronunciation such as every other intruding addition.

It may not seem to make any difference but it does. is not an object but abstract and an adjective or rather an attribute.

Be well

Peace brother Man of Faith,

As you can see in the link i provided, the dots were absent from the oldest versions of Quran.
If you have different sources about the origins/evolution of Quran please share with us.

May God guide us all

Arabic Etymological Dictionary

https//www.academia.edu/4847281/Arabic_Etymological_Dictionary

A dictionary and glossary of the Kor-an, with copious grammatical references and explanations of the text
by Penrice, John, 1818-1892

https//archive.org/details/adictionaryandg00penrgoog

Akkadian dictionary

http//www.assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/index_en.php

The Foreign Vocabulary Of The Quran

https//archive.org/details/foreignvocabular030753mbp

Aramaic words in the Quran

https//archive.org/details/diearamischenfr00fraegoog

Hebrew

http//www.hebrewatmilah.org/maskilon1/index.htm

Hebrew etymology

http//www.hebrewetymology.com/

Peace

Thank you runninglikezebras peace
I'll check them soon

May God guide us all

Peace Man Of Faith and good logic,

Thanks for your welcome peace

May God guide us all

I agree totally, I think the Qur'an makes all the prophets seem like really sweet and wonderful people.

So what are your current beliefs and practices though?

You can read mine basically in "I COMMAND THEE TO OBEY ME!" or whatever.

I just went through some of your previous posts and I was like http//www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/09/mind_blown.gif

However, I think sarcasm and irony are strong weapons against extremisms and close mindedness elektro

About my practice and beliefs, I believe in a Unique God and his messengers including Mohammed who transmitted the Quran to Humanity. As to how to apply those beliefs, i'm still 'inquiring'.

May God guide us all

Did it have an odor by chance?

So where are you at now in your current religious beliefs or whatever? What are your current practices?

Do you still find the QUr'an repetitive, boring, and un-inspirational?

Do you still hate Muhammed and believe in the Hadiths?

FreedomStands,

Here you are again with your "subtile" double meanings group

About the Hadiths, the Quran paints a much more attractive image of Messenger Mohammed, don't you agree ?

May God guide us all

Peace all,

I find the idea behind this thread quite interesting.

Here are some verses that never fail to make me smile

276 And when they come across those who believe, they say ?We
believe!? And when they are alone with each other they say
?Why do you inform them of what God has said to us? Then they
would use it in argument against us at your Lord. Do you not
comprehend??

Also all the verses between 265 and 271 about the choice of the cow to sacrifice

Peace runninglikezebras,

Would you please recommend me some works, websites of people who have done a study of the Quran meanings based on the origins of the Arabic language or with different way of using the vowels and dots ?

I agree with what you said about native arabic speaking folks like myself. It's a difficult process of reeducation.

However, i would not put "understanding the Quran" high on the scale of things a muslim has to do. Don't get me wrong, it is advised to study the Quran and try to understand its meaning but we will never truly reach as it is stated here 37

If we take into account the possibilities of 'tashkil' using different vowels and dots for every single verse in the Quran and then the possibilities of meaning using Arabic, Aramaic, Hebrew, Ugaritic and Phoenician dictionaries it is obvious that il will take a lifetime of more to get to some kind of understanding of Quran. Most people don't have the luxury of time or even the mental abilities needed to do such a great work.
Since i believe that God is fair, I don't think that that tremendous work is a condition to have faith or to enter his heaven.

May God guide us all

Peace Novice,

For me content of a hadith is more important to verify with Qur'an.

True that, but shouldn't one verify what he is verifying with ?

Quran was completed in the life time of our prophet. There were many people who had memorized it in prophet's life time. The dots and vowels were placed for those who did/do not know Qur'anic language so they could recite it properly. The memorizers of Quran played their role of transmission until Qur'an was available on paper and was widely distributed. Now internet has made it even easy to save it from corruption.

Do you have any proof that the Quran was written down in the time of the prophet ? If so where are those copies ? Were they written with or without the dots and vowels ?

The classic Arabic dictionaries and the language of desert dwellers of Arabian Peninsula are good tools to understand Quran. Problem is when we cannot accept meanings of Qur'anic words and get lost in scholar's interpretations which most of the times are used to propagate certain political viewpoint aiming towards mind control.

Can you advise me on where to find those pre-islamic dictionaries ?

I search Qur'an to get guidance from God. In my opinion scale of deeds gets heavy when we apply Qur'an in our daily life.

I couldn't agree more

May God guide us all

It would be good to learn Classical Arabic, but it is clearly not necessary in order to meet the standards set by the Qur'an of who enters paradise, as discussed in another thread where I just posted.

Peace brother FreedomStands,

The question i'm asking is more specific than the one asked in the other thread. I'm asking about people who have accepted the Quran as a the word of God. What to make of the following verses 2530, 4144, 4724, 5417 if one does not speak arabic ?

Do you have some medical problem?

O you who believe! fasting is prescribed for you, as it was prescribed for those before you, so that you may guard (against evil). 2183

2184 Fast for a specified number of days, but if any one among you is ill or on a journey, let him fast the same number of days later. For those who can fast only with extreme difficulty, there is a way to compensatethe feeding of a needy person. But he who does good of his own accord shall be well rewarded; but to fast is better for you, if you only knew.

2185 The month of Ramadan in which was revealed the Qur'an, a guidance for mankind, and clear proofs of the guidance, and the Criterion (of right and wrong). And whosoever of you is present, let him fast the month, and whosoever of you is sick or on a journey, (let him fast the same) number of other days. Allah desireth for you ease; He desireth not hardship for you; and (He desireth) that ye should complete the period, and that ye should magnify Allah for having guided you, and that peradventure ye may be thankful.

2186
AND IF My servants ask thee about Me - behold, I am near; I respond to the call of him who calls, whenever he calls unto Me let them, then, respond unto Me, and believe in Me, so that they might follow the right way.

2187 IT IS lawful for you to go in unto your wives during the night preceding the fast they are as a garment for you, and you are as a garment for them. God is aware that you would have deprived yourselves of this right, and so He has turned unto you in His mercy and removed this hardship from you. Now, then, you may lie with them skin to skin, and avail yourselves of that which God has ordained for you, and eat and drink until you can discern the white streak of dawn against the blackness of night, and then resume fasting until nightfall; but do not lie with them skin to skin when you are about to abide in meditation in houses of worship. These are the bounds set by God do not, then, offend against them - it is thus that God makes clear His messages unto mankind, so that they might remain conscious of Him.

3335
VERILY, for all men and women who have surrendered themselves unto God, and all believing men and believing women, and all truly devout men and truly devout women, and all men and women who are true to their word, and all men and women who are patient in adversity, and all men and women who humble themselves , and all men and women who give in charity, and all self-denying men and self-denying women, and all men and women who are mindful of their chastity, and all men and women who remember God unceasingly for them has God readied forgiveness of sins and a mighty reward.

589
GOD will not take you to task for oaths which you may have uttered without thought, but He will take you to task for oaths which you have sworn in earnest. Thus, the breaking of an oath must be atoned for by feeding ten needy persons with more or less the same food as you are wont to give to your own families, or by clothing them, or by freeing a human being from bondage; and he who has not the wherewithal shall fast for three days . This shall be the atonement for your oaths whenever you have sworn . But be mindful of your oaths!' Thus God makes clear unto you His messages, so that you might have cause to be grateful.

595
O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. God forgives what is past for repetition God will exact from him the penalty. For God is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

al-Baqarah 2185
So every one of you who is present (at his home) during that month should spend it in fasting,

---

inu It's called
inu a NEW MOON
inu CCause it's like a new moon is being
inu Formed
foxy then I dont even know what this 10 days thing is
inu And then fills up and then wanes away
inu So from one to the other is a MOON
inu People have been
inu Using this
inu Terminology
inu And measurement
inu Since TIME IMMEMORIAL
foxy saw a girl talking outside had pregnant belly and I went AHGH
foxy some version of ugh
foxy yeah
foxy I cant even read
foxy what they are writing
inu Hahaha
foxy its so long and weird and I don't know what they are saying
foxy but they are all apparently
inu Hahahahahahaha oh
foxy deeply convinced
inu That
inu REMINDS ME
foxy why not just FORGET ABOUT FASTING
inu Of
inu What they say about
inu What YOU WRITE
inu We're all BLOCKED
inu From understanding
inu Certain things a certain way
foxy haha yeah totally I feel the same way
foxy just like their eyes cross at my writing
foxy my eyes cross at their writing
foxy I can't even read it
foxy I don't LIE and claim I read it though
inu Haha, yeah
inu That's kind of like why I never really
inu Read much of the bible
inu It's just
inu Soooooo boring
inu And long
inu And has
inu Dumb stuff in it
inu Wrong things
inu Glaringly
inu BAd things
inu But that would be fun at least
inu If it was
inu More Packed
inu Action packed
inu Or something
inu Like if it was just all these funny violent injustices
inu In a row
inu That would be great
inu But it has to be written in the most LONG BORING MANNER POSSIBLE
inu With all this filler inbetween
inu And nothing happening
foxy Saum is for thre days= length in with full moon appears full.

Saum is individual and occurs in ramadhan

Hajj is collective. Hajj is a collective feast during 3 days.
Hajj has two objectives. Nourish soul and body of poors.
So to give food (safa=livestck) and drinks (marwa).
and to give spiritual food by teachnings and debate.
foxy http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9607570.msg369870#msg369870 see they make it so hard to read
foxy quoting from freaking LUKE?
inu Hahahahah WHAT?
inu Hajj is a GROUP FEAST FOR THREE DAYS?
inu Not a HAJJ?
inu Not a pilgrimage to anywehre
inu HAha
foxy hahah
inu HAha but yeah
inu I guess
inu There is
inu Givingg meat to the poor
foxy their religion is so weird and corrupt
foxy just make stuff out of nowhere entirely
foxy and claim there is some rationale
inu Give spiritual food by teachings and debate
inu Hahaha
inu It's not even about that being such a bad idea
foxy I'll give spiritual food by shoving donuts in your mouth
inu But this systemy
inu Making stuff up
inu Crap
inu As if that's being said there
foxy haha yeah
inu Hahahahaha
foxy like
foxy if you have an idea
foxy just SAY IT
inu SHoving doughnuts
foxy why do you have to lie about the Qur'an
inu SIDEWAYS
inu So their tongue
inu Goes through the hole
inu Hahahaha quoting Luke
inu As Einstein said, the sublime truth should be both elegant and beautiful...
inu I have a tendency to accept explanations of truth that are simple and graceful.
inu Thank you for this elaborate study which FEELS right...
inu Peace
inu Hahahahahahaha
foxy hahahaha
inu HAhaha I'm trying to read this out loud and laughing
foxy hahahahaha
foxy its extremely funny that way
inu HAHAHA 2-197 is not saying before they were wrong here.
inu Hahahaha TORAH seems clear that first month is in spring
inu WHO CARES??!!
inu HAhahaha HAJJ OCCURS IN THE 4
inu in 28-27, hijaj (plural of hajj) is used to indicate unit of time. (8 hijajs or 10 hijaj)
inu so, as unit should not change to bo a good unit, it seems likely to say that a hajj unit of time is quarter.
inu HAHAHAH
inu Haha practicality and simplicity?
inu What about what the Qur'an says?
inu Why does SIMPLE matter
inu And what even is 'simple'?
inu IS
inu THIS CRAP
inu REALLY MORE SIMPLE THAN
inu SAYIN
inu ONE MONTH A YEAR?
inu CAUSE IT ACTUALLY SEEMS MORE COMPLICATED AND CONFUSING
inu It kind of reminds me of OCCAM'S RAzOR
inu Why is SIMPLICITY
inu Desired?
inu It doesn't have to be SIMPLE
inu But AS IT HAPPENS
inu YES IT IS PRETTY DAMN SIMPLE
inu The Qur'an calls to balance, I would say that as far as time measure is concerned, the balance is reached at equinoxes, obviously. That would be the fixing I would be more satisfied with in terms of reason and feeling.
inu HAhaha SHUT THE FUCK U
inu Does the Qur'an CALL TO BALANCE?
inu Where does it do that?
inu Does it say we have to fast when the day is always this length
inu Or blah blah
inu That people in different
inu LATITUDES
inu Or whatevver
inu MUST HAVE
inu THE SAME FAST TIME
inu DOIGN EQUAL EFFORT
inu Does it say anything about FAIRNESS?
inu IS THE WORLD
inu FAIR?
inu ALL THE SUDDEN
inu This is the same balance shit you were talking about
inu Ruth tendency
inu To say it's the same or should be the same
inu It involves even perhaps some OCD sort of desir
inu e
inu For
inu Symmetry
inu But the world is NOT
inu Symmetrical
inu It's not all orderly or balanced like this
inu The world is
inu The WORD IS
inu Whatever the hell ALLAH SAYS
inu Which doesn't have to beFAIR
inu Or follow ANY RULES AT ALL
inu Haha noshirk
inu Nice name
inu As to the qadr part, I also tend to agree. Qadr, stems from what I would deem "capacity", which is a measure and related to power because capacity is where we can or we cannot with respect to something. In this sense white related to the mizan, the balance which is fundamental in God's creation and which should rule our behaviour. In a way I could understand that leilat al qdr is when we reach the
inu balance, the inner and outer balance with God's power and ourselves, where we integrate.
inu HAHAHAHAHA
inu Trying to read this stuff out loud is really funny
inu As you said, when measuring we use something equivalent
inu Point Taken.
inu HAHA
inu They all talk so weird
inu HAhahaha ten inhalations and exhalations

25 63 -

Then, Salaam Brother

May Allah guide us all

Why ten days even? Why not 10 hours, or ten inhalations and exhalations?

FreedomStands,

2.185 says that those who could not fast Ramadan, can fast an amount (&#1577 of other days (3 days or more)
usually means a small numbers of days = between 3 and 10

The meaning of a few days is also repeated in 1184 (&#1578

And is further confirmed in 1203 God permit those in hurry during hajj to speed it up to 2 days instead of a few days (&#1578

As to why 10 ?
I'm still studying the number of due days (between 3 and 10), until I'm sure i'll fast a complete 10 days.

May Allah guide us all