another way of looking at it""""""""""""
if we question human emotions first ,we need to observe our selves in anger or in happiness.
it is clearly an emotion which is a reaction to what we forecast project in our minds ,if the out come was something we like we are happy ,if the out come was something we hate we are not happy,so we are sad or angry.
lets go deeper with this,what is happening on the inside?
eg, i want more money or i want my wife to love me. and if i get the opposite then i am really disappointment and the negative feeling arises or if i get what i want i become happy.
so these feelings are linked to my projection or what i wanted ,what i have put forth,they go against the order of the Quran to be " patient" "sabr ".
If ask this interms of Allah the all knower or if wills something he simple says " be and it is" .
there could be misinterpretations of the quran where we start using some words used in it ,towards ourselves . those words from the quran referred from the Ayas about Allah are true but we use these words today to describe our reactions and feelings ,and that is a mistake . we cannot use those words to describe our emotions ,it is wrong .
as for the emotions we have resulting from a reaction. lets look deeper into that and we find out that these reactions to certain situations will go away in a while.a broken heart will mend in time.
anger can die in time.
so my question would be would there be some thing else connected with those feelings.
at the time of anger man knows nothing but he is angry ,often missing the reason why . and would run into many mistakes while not knowing how to react.
yet if we look further again we find out that at this moment man is anger nothing but anger,not a result of a situation any more ,but just anger.
those feelings seem to come for a reason but later will live on with out the reason.and we all share them.
what brought them around? why did we have them?
are they biological or just psychological ?
i have reason to believe that these feelings are some how to do with our " qareeen" it helps in on them.
it is very human for we all have a "qareen " .
this definitely needs deeper observation ,but the answer is clear ,ALLAH is not human and does not share human traits . he sees it he knows it ,but he is not of it .
peace to you all.

it clear in the Quran that the all mighty wants us to stay on the other side of aggression and that it is wrong.to keep that balance is like mathematics ,there is no feelings in it,and yet we can put feelings to it as well.but it runs like mathematics.
as for "Allah" there is so little known about "Allah" the Quran states that he likes yet our own understanding and imagination rules our understanding for when we think of gods actions and we put it in our own mental capacity.
often you find that our feelings are always a result of our experiences ,we shape how we feel my what we experienced in our lives and the out comes.
a feeling towards a child you have raised and then you feel you want to protect ,those feelings as you can see are relative to ones experiences.
Allah is beyond those experiences and is not subject to progressive change in understanding affected by visual stamina.
i would strongly suggest that Allah is beyond feeling when we see feeling as emotion or human interaction.
Allah wills what he wills.his will shall be .
if we can separate our feelings and look at things in proper balance then things shall become clearer to us.
see emotions are not always a good thing.
that separates the Quran from most religions now a days.
the Quran speaks of a balance of what is good and to help others ,that shall keep the balance ,if a human being gives in to greed he would eat his brothers food.the balance is important " al meezan " " al 3adl" .
we still deal with our lives through our emotions ,we are human beings but we have to be free to look as well.
free from our own emotions.
"lukman" says in the Quran . that wisdom is to be thankful to Allah.
i hope that i have answered with some how closer to truth of an answer but i don't claim that all is say i right ,so please think about it and get a clearer conclusion.
peace to you all.

interestingly put theses linguistic associations you use.
i think dean is the balance of justice so man will not betray neither man nor Allah.
it is the thin line between doing what is right and what is wrong.
"rabana thabit aqdamana"
as for salat it has a time .
you said that iblees is in us in our selves.
that is very true ,man shares his body with the "qureen" .
that same thing "qureen" is in our bodies ,i believe it is the very nervous system we have ,or very much in it,if you compare stories of (OBE)'s and dreams and all that you find out that most of the memories people have are of the "qureen'.even some have claimed reincarnation and proved it. that is the memory of the "Qureen" associated with our experiences as well.
it seems we can remember through this "qureen" ,the Qureen is what we use to actually be productive.but in no way it should be taken for decision making.
we are influenced by it but our decisions are our decisions.
humans where intended to be bodies of light just like angels where only adam did not do as ordered so he was let down with "bliss" together on this planet one with the other in one body.
we have this duality in us all ,our system yet needs to be understood.the mirror neurone and all those body maps . and the brain that changes itself. our memories.
peace to you all.

really interesting ,yes it gives this understanding when read chronologically.
i would always want to find a clue from the quran as to how to number the suras.
it is difficult for me to really go with historical givens .still your feedback is right on.
i disagree with you when you say prayer ,prayer is different from reading quran.prayer is dua and is found in some form in the quran itself.
i do find that salat is different from prayer as well.
salat is translated as prayer but really all what prayer is is duaa .
yet salat is to do something at a certain end times of day ,or as quran states at the two sides of day.
please don't get me wrong i admire how you understand the chronology and might see more meaning in it like that .
through experience i doubt all but the quran ,i find that there is always meaning in it regardless how you number the suras .
as what we need to be doing through salat , it still baffles me ,i don't have a clear picture ,one is for sure.it might mean to stop and wait.
it might mean that what ever you are doing,you need to stop and wait during those periods. two ends of day.stand still or sit.they are not for you to do any thing during those times.
yasla el nara wait for fire.
how could i put it into words ,like this is not your time ,stop what you are doing and wait till it passes by.
strange ,my understanding of this always progresses ,one needs to have his eyes closed as well.as if we are not even supposed to see during salat.even the action of seeing moving or speaking is prohibited during salat. complete silence .
i might be wrong ,but keep an open mind ,peace to you .
my conclusion is based on relating many ayas together to get a better picture of some words that i found contradiction in ,when often related meaning from arab scholars where given.
so i went to find new meanings by comparing those words in the quran.
eg.
saq= eye lids
haram = middle or median.
ashhur hurum = middle month form the start of year or rebirth of life (spring)
al thul or thillal = the light.
sujud = eyes closed
peace again to you all.
i might be very wrong ,yet keep an open mind.

islam=?
deen=?
iman=?
kufur=?
they all belong to the same group. to know one you must know the other.
this is not about ideology .i will not post the meanings for it is clear in the Quran.
look up KUFUR and the result .
and look up Iman and the results.
then one will know what is islam .
you are right islam does not mean submission.the word in engish does not do the quranic word justice and results in a weak translation.
peace to you all.

"sab ba7"= sa+ba7
"sub 7an"=sub+7an
those could be two complete words.
arabic is still being looked at from the glass of the system put long ago by many scholars .not that we are not supposed to do that,but what if?
what if we had the language understood in a wrong way, the language of the Quran.
as for my understanding of the word ,i always thought of it as swim in a sense and when applied to man ,it is to sleep.
or to be constant with out going about ,to sleep . ,of course that makes total sense after concluding that sujud means closed eyes.or with out seeing.
it might make perfect sense ,
IT is mentioned in the quran that "Allah" takes our souls in our sleep and then returns who ever he wills to return.
please don't confuse this to OBEs and astral dynamics ,i think the other is totally different and has nothing to do with tasbeeh. in fact it could be the complete opposite.
this is all my observation and in no means i claim it to be completely true.
keep an open mind and peace to the world .

i don't really see the word atraf to be more than two.
but for arguments sake if we consider that the day has more than two hands " atraf " then we must also consider that the nite only engulfs the day ,so there are parts of the night that you can still see light in the sky if you look up especially in the summer and some clear winter nights .
so the day is only engulfed by night .
so the two "atraf" are not two ends. but they are a time where there is light with out the sun. mostly in two periods after sun set and before sun rise .
and some of the night you might see light in the sky with out the sun. this could be another " taraf" in case you want to consider that atraf means more than two.
please if you can bring further proof from quran that atraf should mean more than two .
this plural singular in quran is very difficult to grasp ,and arabs have made sense of what they think the language is,yet quran is different one must really verify from quran and not from language.
if the two atraf meet each other then we can consider them to be one taraf. it is changing according to the fact of what is happening not every day is the same.
wow you made me go on booster thinking ,i really don't like that ,it takes a lot of energy from me. lol.
it is the source of the pure language. i wish i knew more but it is all in the lords hands for us to see what we can ," Wa QUL RABI ZIDNI 3ILMA"
the word " ATRAF" should be considered ,what might be the real translation?
i think it might mean extensions ,even sometimes when one extension might meet the other ,they are extension .that is why i called atraf or taraf a hand ,an extension.
i don't claim that this is true but i am thinking here.
peace to you all and every one .
may the lord bless humanity with his mercy.

interesting subject that may shed light on a lot of complications with our thought process in the future.
the quran explains it all .
3arabi does not mean arabic but it means pure or complete.
as for a3rabi it means the opposite ,has nothing do with city dwellers at all.now what does a3jami mean?
if we can conclude to this then i suggest that there is another world of meaning in the quran ,one that has to do with letters and not just words.
when we add a letter to a word that letter changes the meaning of the word and it has nothing to do with grammar as previously thought.
eg.
"el thul"= light
"el thulumat"= darkness or as the quran explains it in one of the verses as the disappearance of light.
see the quran explains that it is the disappearance of light and not the dark .
this is really scientific.
all we have to do is keep an open mind .
it comes when we think about the quran and wonder with in its words.
don't take that you can speak arabic that you might know quran .
peace

the parts of time where sun sets but is still light is called "atraf el nahar" in the quran
" wa sabih bi hamdi rabika kabla toulou3i el el shamsi wa kabla el ghouroub"
"tarafi el nahar"
the zone as i like to call it is clearly parts of the day.
we might need to look into this further.
peace

Are you refereing that the Quran is a book ?
I don't think it is a book. A book needs structure yet the Quran does not have structure . Often the topics are mixed and over lapping . The Quran seems to hold to story structure as well. The last thing I can say is that this Quran can never be a book , it is a " Kitab " . A Kitab is not just a book . Now a day Arabic has spoiled our understanding . A Kitab seems to be much more than a book . It is more interactive in a way as if changing . But back to your question if I was to assume do we need Quran to believe in god . I would say no , but we need Quran to be guided in what is better for us . To now what is belief is it the picture or the idea is that belief or could there be some thing else , could belief in Quran mean liberation from preconception . Set your self free . You still think like you are owned by an idea . Let the Quran liberate you my friend .
Peace.

if i understand you correctly Mr. Nasser ,you are looking for a dictionary that is not corrupted.
I wonder if that ever exists,if some one can corrupt the meaning of the Quran then what makes you think that he cannot corrupt the Dictionary as well?
i apologize for being blunt ,but i don't think any dictionary would do.
let me try to tip you on a great source ,there is this book that can really show you proper meanings ,I happen to find it some time back and it is called " Quran".
see the only thing that can show the true meanings of the Quran is the Quran itself.nothing else will do.
peace.

i can say a lot about what i think and that would mean a great deal to me.but to really understand Quran one has to learn from it.
in aya where more wives is mentioned like two three or four look at the words closely,and don't jump to conclusions. most of the words are explained out of the context of the Quran now a days.
eg "a3dilu" could mean return.
who are Yatama ilnisa ?
this verse could be understood in multiple ways.i still would say we must think more in the context of the Quran and try to be patient to know what this means.
what if this Aya meant that man can get married more than once ,not necessarily after divorce ,but after a wives death.
the aya could simply mean if you "scared in not returning the dead mothers girl orphans then marry what "taba lakum" of woman,twice ,thrice ,four times.
the aya is really complicated and needs to be compared with all text that has similar words from the quran.
there most be some work done here. or else the meaning will not be clear regardless of what we think.
peace.

one is a reference ,the aya clearly state that god is "ahad" and in another aya it is "al ahad " or "al wahid"
another aya would also state the only.nothing beside him or with him.
you using the nubmers here refer to the uniqueness of god but cannot resemble him.so the one is not Allah neither Allah is the number one.i could argue that Allah is the only .
the aya could go for that as well.still all is balanced by the number one as u have suggested. meaning the number one can be the tip of the balance -+. and there are things that do not exist in quantities .they simply resemble what they affect like hate and feelings .does that mean that those are ALLah.
my only understanding of Allah would be that with out him nothing would exist ,as simple as that.

excuse my typos .i realized that i have a lot of them.
as for khinzeer as a lot of words from teh quran it might have a different meaning than we might of thought it did.
and that is what i meant when i said that the book does change.some times our understanding of really go through evolution.
that does not mean that some one else s understanding of it is wrong.but we do need to keep an open mind for who ever can will see more.
peace.

please don't miss understand me,in no way i am saying that the way people choose to pray is wrong.
man is free and Allah has given him this freedom.and in no way any one really judge some one else.
i just right this for that is how i see things,and would like to share my opinion, it is just a thought.
can any one look at what has been said and verify or refuse,just need another opinion ,please refer to the quran for that is what we are studying.
peace to all

as i have said before ,it is not wrong to look at a dictionary .
no wrong or right here,we are not going to find one definite answer ,but we put the question do we need to refer back or can we actually derive a different meaning if we don't.that does not mean that the conflicting meaning is wrong ,this is like saying my understanding is right and every one else's is wrong .
this is not how it works.
the reason why i brought this subject up is because some words in the quran could get different meanings and would not conflict with the other ayas.
now if this can happen then is it wrong? or can we approach the Quran in a new mentality a mentality that is not rigid to the meaning we always knew.
i was asked to give an example (there are a lot of them) in the Quran,where one can really deduce a different meaning with out causing a real conflict to the structure or the words in the Quran.
that would open up another topic,(that i don't know much about) and would be how IBN ARABI looked at the quran.
IBN arabi deduced meaning for letters as well.he would not only go as far as explaining some words but would give letters some meaning.
and that would even give the Quran more interpretation in our modern world. any thing that does not cause conflict mathematically sort of speak with the quran then it would work ,for it falls under logical sequence.
meaning if i find a relation between certain letters in the quran and that relation does not conflict then that relation could have meaning beyond what is said.
i am not trying to make it more complex but the quran is really very unique ,sort of one big big puzzle that we cannot fully decipher .
as for the example i am about to give ,for instance we take the word "saq" meaning a foot or leg for most people ,hey this when read in the quran seems more like to mean eye lids.
so you put the meaning into the test and it holds.deducing that maybe i can say that saq means eye lids after all.
now the grammar that we use to define arabic is important but it can only go so far ,for it is not set in stone.it might rule the sounds but it does not rule the meanings ,because all the grammar does is use a lexicon or a dictionary (history) as an example ,and that on its own might limit the understanding of the Quran.
i am not saying it is wrong again ,to a lot of people this might seem sacred.but for how i see and i am free to look at this in which ever angle i see fit,i see it as very limiting and not open to interpretation.
one could even argue what is the real meanig for the word arabic, does it mean an arabic language or does it mean ,a complete language , this was stated by pazuzu earlier ,and why yes and why not if so?
sorry if i offend any one here.
it is just a thought
peace.

Man of faith I agree with you many points where it is clear that Allah is eternal and over all showing us his signs every single day. So one would conclude that the Quran could only go so far .
All you say might be true but I sort of see it a bit different in terms of the Quran . human beings are used on doing the same thing over and over we call it repetition , have you noticed how every book on the ever written on the planet has been given a certain structure to follow , and how most books follow the same structure , look up this book with the title " the hero whith a thousand faces " . Man has been doing the same thing over and over stuck in a rut . And man seem to enjoy the same story over and over but evey time we have a different hero . But when we look at the Quran , there is no structure , stories in different form and stories that do not have a uniform begging middle and end as if so mixed up . Yet there is meaning to it . Still most of its meaning is dynamic . Have you not asked your self that we are looking at a book that we know it had been there for generations . And still are looking at the meaning and deducing different answers every time because we have different intellects . I don't think of the Quran as uniform and with one main theme. I think it is very dynamic , as if only giving us what is right at the right time . The theme we see in it is very unstable for it is constantly changing . Like look at all those words that can be understood in many ways and every time it changes how we look at the whole book. We see in it what we think and what we know is right in our judgement . Modern man can explain it in ways no one could emagine a few hundred years ago . Do you think this was done by accident and those before us could not see it because they did not have an open mind. Or is it that the Quran is a book of merci and in being so it can be for any one . Even hadeathers with all their commitment to something else can not refuse that this book is supreme , they only choose to take other things with it . Their understanding is not as flexible but they still have high regard for the book. Some one will look at the Quran and say hey you don't get the point ? Because he sees so much a different picture . I think that both are right there is no evil here , never the less who does something wrong will be judged . I don't agree with hadeethers but I think that they use Quran as well. Some of them are not so bad . As some Christians and some Jews are good people . We cannot be prejudice . You will only see as much as you can , after all we are only human.
That is why there is no wrong or right here , but a teacher that has been evolving with man for centuries .
I have sensed here at the forum how we want to prove each other right and wrong but the truth is all are right if they are taking the Quran as a teacher even the hadeathera or the Christians or the Jews . All is the same . This a book for humanity and we are all different . That is the magnificence of it . Remember I am not saying you are wrong for all I have said means that you are right as well.
Peace to all.

i feel that this subject of love is really complicated,and would need another twenty years of study or more.
who knows ALLah knows best.still your explanations of it are right on , i cannot really see it any other way.
peace

prayer is simply DUA or asking Allah at any time,communicating with him through inner or out verbal or nonverbal means.
as for " salat " i believe it might have a totally different meaning ,please if try to separate the two we might grasp a better understanding of many ayas . DUA or prayer can be done after Salat .and there is the word YA3KUf in the Quran.YA3kuf and sujud ,see once we get a peice of the puzzle then all will be clearer but it has to fit in all .
peace.

some might look at this subject as interesting a potential new understanding and some might argue that this is completely irrelevant.
i would personally think it is interesting as well.
as for khinzeer if it means pig or if it means rotten i need to try to find more information about this from the Quran ,i would suggest looking up the meaning of the word Hurim as well from the Qurani context and not the dictionary.
the subject of the thread though is "salat" and DUA or prayer and would like to stick to it so that we might get as many input on this as possible.