As long as the author doesn't show up, as long as words will have multiple meanings, as long as metaphors may be present among absolute statements, I really don't think we can ever objectively study this book. Salamun Alaikum. If by ?objective study? one means to derive the ?one definitive meaning/interpretation? that is meant by the author? then I AGREE with the above statement. In fact I find it quite in line with the below famous statement from the very Qur?an 37 It is He who sent down the book on you. From it there are authoritative signs ? they are the leads of the book; and others are allegorical. Then as for those - in their hearts there is deflection ? so they follow whatever is allegorical of it ? seeking provocation and seeking its interpretation; But none knows its interpretation except God - and those deeply-rooted in knowledge ? they say, ?We put faith in it, everything is from near our Master? - but none rethinks except the men of discretion. (My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.) Please note the statement ?none knows its interpretation except God?? this validates SOA?s remark that ?As long as the author doesn't show up? we can never get the objective meaning of the book?. THEN how and why should one study a book which itself claims that no one knows its ?(definitive) interpretation? except God? This is where we need to understand why the verses of Qur?an are called signs (ayats). The understanding to be derived of a sign always varies depending on the perspective of the reader. So, those who put faith in Qur?an as the book of God would accept this as a blessing and treat the book as a ?living book? which is capable of changing how it would guide the reader. Let me clarify with one example. Qur?an frequently mentions ?He sent water from the heaven?? as a sign that God is in charge. From the very beginning of Qur?an study, this has been understood to be a reference to ?rain??and quite logically so. However, as a reader in the 21st Century I am privileged to know that the element "water" is not native to earth ? because the known process of planet formation does not support the generation of liquid water on this planet. So, scientists generally agree that water came to earth from extra-terrestrial sources, perhaps through comets or asteroids. The fact that this essential element for life was ?sent? to earth to make it habitable - adds to the odds that such events could have occurred without any master plan. Now with this privileged information when I read the following verse 222 Who assigned for you the earth as a bedding and the sky as a canopy and sent down from the sky ? water; then brought forth with these provision from the fruits for you; so don?t assign equals to God while you know. (My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.) ? I cannot but wonder about the extra-terrestrial origin of water on this planet. - Not because Qur'an say's so, but because this verse is a sign that prompts me to such wondering. When I read this verse I cannot but wonder about the facts that the crust of this loving blue planet needed to cool down at the correct temperature and then spread over the boiling core like a comfortable bedding.. and also greenhouse gasses needed to form a protective canopy to shed the planet from sun?s radiation and also water had to arrive from the heavens and only after these vital conditions are met life in the form of plans and animals could have sprung out here. Do I claim this as a ?Scientific miracle? of Qur?an? No, I am not trying to claim that. What I am trying to say.. whoever would assume the Qur?an to be a humanly authored book might logically seek ?(definitive) interpretation? of the book and hence take the above verse as na?ve chatter of a 6th century individual. But whoever is open to the idea that this book is inspired by God and meant to guide us..would only stand to take guidance from this book utilizing the latest available knowledge and understanding. In this forum this approach has been called ?interpretation acrobatics? before. I do not mind. I have faith that this book is meant to be useful as a guide to the readers only when the reader takes his best intention and best understanding to it. And this is how, I believe, Qur?an is meant to be studied. Is this approach subjective? Yes. Does this approach mean that different people could take different meaning from the same sign (ayah) and can both be right in their own way as long as their intention is right? Yes it does. We put faith in it, everything is from near our Master ... He guides to the straight way whomever He wills. Regards, Arman

By the way, your video, if anything, would inspire me to put aside The Book and grab a blanket. Peace ----------- Student of Allah rotfl

...only just realised it's something I've never really thought about. I always just assumed it was for hygienic reasons, preventing the spread of head lice and such. In a lot of countries joining the army requires you to shave your head for this very reason.

Cheers all! Regarding the poem in question, I think it is as good as the intention and feeling behind it... which we don't know unless we closely know the poet. But from my standpoint, I think it is stupid to say that the beauty of a woman lies in EITHER of those things mentioned. I think the beauty of a woman lies in ALL those things mentioned, both submission and leadership, both smile and laughter, not just half of them... but the whole poem lives on the fact that there are some fancy looking set of "opposites". They whole poem is a bit cheezy. Perhaps the poet put more effort into finding word pairs that would fit in the context, than writing out of inspiration and emotion. Perhaps the poem is some sort of apologetic thing, trying to pour perfume and pink petals and rosy lenses on the otherwise limping and fungus-ridden view of woman in Sunnism and the like. Those that see the poem as disgusting... I completely understand that... but that may also have to do with what we think about in connection or extension to the poem, i.e. the traditional religious view of a woman's role, qualities and value. So if we think and remind ourselves of the negative aspects of society, and people's dull and ignorant minds, then I too want to catch fire out of disgust. I'm sick of people/groups who labels others, restricts others, degrade others and thereby shout out their own tremendous and unnecessary ignorance of the true spirit of life and show how extremely fear and lack based their own thinking in practical reality is. But, ... we see what we choose to see... there is no escape from this fact. Peace and love to you all folks! sun

Peace good logic due lack of time, I am just doing one verse out of three. Hopefully, this should sufice to what you are looking for. 399 Think and then express in your words, O you people the refusal and departure from learned and written collection of principles is a reason why you have been turned away from lasting profit of Allah (one not a deity for worship). Who gives safety and security, you endeavor to make this collection crooked and distorted. And you continue to be witnesses for this distortion, without realizing Allah (one who is not a deity for worship) is not unaware of what you are doing. Where is the translation / your understanding of 399 ? I also wanted to see you translate of the verse above. After seeing your translation only I may able to understand who you wrote to me, so please translate at least 399 Thanks in advance, mmKhan

After I got married, I lost my privacy because all must be shared.

But how far will such mutations go . if we have a time machine and we travel 1 million years in the future are we still going to recognize them as tiger and deer and human or will they have changed so dramatically that we can not recognize them as such? Remember there are no stupid questions. Or there will be no more human or tiger on earth, and earth as a planet has become uninhabitable. Evolution also happened on planet, solar system, galaxies and this universe.

I shall expand on the scientific proof of the existence of a "Creator" , "Designer" of this universe. http//www.goldenratio.org/ info The creator has put a code, a stamp in all HIS creation. ( Also a proof connecting the golden ratio, Fibonacci numbers and 19 exist..) Peace.

Which English translation is the above? I like to send my relatives back home English translation of the Koran. So far, Ahmed Ali seems to be best. That is Rashad Khalifa's translation with a lot of (....) added in. I like Edips Reformist translation. It's a different take on some things, very similar to Free Minds translation as Layth was involved in it and there is a lot of other extra information and opinions on verses and meanings and cross references to Biblical stories. It's interesting some of his views and understandings on some issues. It's worth having in your collection for comparative studies none the less.

Absolutely sister, when the topic comes up or presents itself, speak nicely and invite to God with wisdom and kind enlightenment. Give them something to think about! We never know how God's will works. You could have a simple conversation like with your dad and nothing comes of it, yet maybe months or years down the road, maybe that little seed you planted will take root and blossom, God willing. It's all we can do. For example, the one brother who converted was someone I trained at our workplace. We got to talking about God in general and I just was having fun asking him questions and making him think. We had a good time with it and I thought it was just like everyone else I ever spoke to - it would amount to nothing. I didn't see him at all after training and around 3 weeks later, he shows up unannounced, knocking the door of my house. I was completely surprised and when I opened the door he said he was doing a lot of thinking about things we talked about and came to the conclusion that he wanted to study the Quran and wanted to know about prayer! I gave him a copy of Quran and that was 15 years ago and he is still a faithful, practicing believer and one of my closest friends. You just never know what will happen from a few simple conversations. sun

author=Student of Allah link=topic=9603481.msg292751#msg292751 date=1328442883 I do not consider myself as evil. But I am a human being, so can make mistakes. If you try to verify my works, its good for both of us. Learning experience for both of us. Im just being honest, we are being bombarded with information from everywhere and its so hard to verify everything. You read the news and trust the sources and talk to your friends about the news you red as if you were there and seen them by your self. Of course I see your point, and I will try to verify your hadiths, I understand its your duty to remind everyone to verify information, Im just being honest Well, it doesnt make sense. I know that, thats why I asked you to contact Bukhari He is good at making sh*t up. Senseless things like ".....Then the Almighty will come to them in a shape other than the one which they saw the first time, and He will say, 'I am your Lord,' and they will say, 'You are not our Lord.' And none will speak to Him then but the Prophets, and then it will be said to them, 'Do you know any sign by which you can recognize Him?' They will say. 'The Shin,' and so Allah will then uncover His Shin whereupon every believer will prostrate before Him ..." So you can probably guess by now why I asked you to contact him . This dude has some wild imaginations.... no matter how baseless my SHALOM ALEIKHOM reasoning was, this dude will help you add to the story and fabricate a conclusion. CRAZY HADITH! > Its hard to understand written jokes -[ But it was a good one Peace!

Salaam, I am really sorry for long delay. Today while replying the other thread I remember yours and please follow the link given below, it may give you my understanding on the subject. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9603417.msg291691#msg291691 Sorry again for delay. May Allah increase us all in knowledge and guide us all to His true path pr mmKhan

While contemplating on this part of surah724 'He said, "Descend as enemies to one another' ........Could it be that not only includes satan vs humans, but also men vs women, as history shows that when males had power in their hands, according to them, it was the woman's fault what ever a man did; from Eve to Sarah to stories in hadith. All religions have to some extent blamed women for the wrongs in this world. Now with the emergence of power granted to women in the 20th century, which I believe has happened for the first time in modern history, see how women are treating men. nope

Salam, Is there anyone in this forum who ever worked or works with motion simulation ? The idea is to use actuators to simulate the movement of a vehicle in a computer game. Let me give you a link to the likeness of what I am looking for http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zgKDgTIfgk&feature=related Please let me know if you have worked or work with these kind of simulators. Specially the software ingegrations. PEACE -------------------- Student of Allah

Shalom, I was wondering about muhammad's copy of Qur'an. It never made sense. I was looking at these letters sent by Muhammad to the surrounding empires. I remember reading or watching somewhere , that he sent around 300 letters. My question is, considering the larger than poster size of the letters. Why did he not care to write the Qur'an down ???? I dont believe he never had any resources. Please feel free to join the discussion. PEACE --------------- Student of Allah Exalted Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam-the First to transcribe Grand Qur'aan in writing Irrefutable historical evidence. The experts suggest that one of the criteria a book has to meet to earn title of a great book is that the book has to speak from an important original setting but is contemporary in any time and place. They say; "We want to study these works from a position inside their stream of influence, or from within the history that they themselves have effected". Grand Qur'aan is the unique that it displays its original setting in such picturesque style that the reader might feel contemporary of its original history........ We have watched people talking and addressing their audiences in Mecca slandering against the written text of Qur'aan. They have told us that it is written by Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam. Writing a book is a physical activity. They are his contemporaries. None challenged them as he not being known as a writer-scribe, nor Allah the Exalted refuted this statement of theirs. Now we have also heard the elite of Mecca, therefore, we hereby witness that Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam is the first who wrote the Qur'aan upon its revelation to him. Qur'aan is the first work of significant length written in Arabic. Thereby, he Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam has the distinction of introducing writing tradition ending the long era of oral tradition in Arabia. Exalted Messenger Muhammad Sal'lallaa'hoalaih'wa'salam-the First to transcribe Grand Qur'aan in writing

Shalom, I have been thinking about it. What difference does it make in your life , if you are convinced and testify and bear witness that there is no God at all ? PEACE ----------------- Student of Allah I think it wouldn't really change anything except eventually over time, no matter what is presented as truth to people that conflict with their beliefs, they will not believe, unless those who are more liberal maybe. I believe it can become a form of major controversy if something like this were to be discussed. Eventually in time if people did brace such a belief might cause an extreme case of natural selection or more invested time and money into research to prolong our organs, our cells etc. and a form of tighter security for life. Also embrace and invest more time into the parallel universes theory, possibly even time manipulation. That's all I can think of now.

616 And when Jesus, son of Mary, said O children of Israel, I am a messenger of God to you, authenticating what is between my hands of the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be most acclaimed. But when he showed them the clear proofs, they said This is clearly magic does anyone know "he" on the verse is refer to isa or to messenger that would come after isa?

Salam , What do you mean when you say "A lot of Peace on you and yours!" Dont think of me as an idiot P I do get the first part of it , but the red letters, I do not comprehend . Explain please. PEACE --------------------- Student of Allah Salam and Peace! I am sorry, I should rephrase A lot of Peace on you! And no Peace on yours! Happy?-----Perhaps this is what you wanted! I never can think of you as an idiot! Peace again!

Greetings and Peace, all group Can't say that I'm experienced (yet, ISA)...but I did want to share one thing. 4133 And who is better in saying than he who invites to GOD, and does good works, and says I am one of those who have submitted. May ALLAH see fit to Guide all seekers. /Happy Ramadan! peace ~Abdul-Hadi

you are applying logic and reasoning when well faith is not based on that. Salam, My understanding of faith is vastly different from BLIND BELIEF. The reason I feel comfortable lending money to my friends, and they are comfortable lending money to me is not based on BLIND BELIEF, even though non of us can see the future. Faith is the by product of the personal relationship that we shared over time, which strengthens the idea that the money will be returned. Whereas Blind Belief is like going and lending people on the street money and awaiting return of that money. Allah gives you plenty of things to wonder about and then demands faith. Whereas these people ask you to follow them just because this is what they have been taught to do. No place for reason or rational thought, just follow the herd and do not question !! Peace be on you --------------- Student of Allah