So lets say its possible that a God exists, He created you, sustained you etc, there are some things you can't quite fathom but its possible that this Creator exists, as the Quran states who does more wrong that one who would completely outrightly reject this? Kaffir can often translate to ungrateful and I think its not a simple term, I don't you can simply label someone a kaffir simply because they don't believe yet. It can be someone who disbelieves with a complete rejection and possibly even ungratefulness at any POTENTIAL IDEA of a Creator because they actually want to follow whatever suits them. They only accept morals that a culture sets up but reject anything that could relate to God. i.e. they wouldn't even care if God existed.

Like when it mentions that on the Day of Judgement, there are people who say let us go back we'll do good, but it is only a lie - they will do the same thing even though they know God existed. Like when it says that Iblis rejected what God asked of Him, when God simply asks why did you not do what I asked, Iblis states that its essentially because of racism. He knew God existed but look at the parable. There is an important lesson here for people who actually want to try to understand the Quran for what it is.

I would also like to know what your close family member thinks of the current state of the world. He believes there is no final justice of any sort. Given the justice system itself sometimes commits terrible errors and innocent people have been punished etc, where does he think justice comes from and the state of the world. What do high morals say about the world we live in today and given that all the people in the world who have seen everything destroyed and have had their lives stolen - what are the beliefs on this? Surely, one of the most important goals for YOLO - You only live once, is to ensure as many people are possible can live for as long as possible.

I guess that's what science is doing with all the latest medical studies, apart from the fact through modern science we have developed the most despicable weapons and ways to kill people. Again, like religion it is used in this way by humans. So I wonder about the moral position in relation to that.

This could be argued as a problem of justice just like some say there is a problem of evil. I find a lot of the arguments people level at theism can be levelled straight back at atheism.

My point would also be, why atheism then, why not a "tentative" sort of theism because isn't the point supposed to be about a lack of knowledge that God exists? If you start from, I have no knowledge God exists, so therefore I'm going to reject this idea, given that this is about God, it doesn't really fit together for me.

This post has ended up being quite a bit longer than I thought it would. I think I can anticipate your response from the last post of yours that I saw, as you seemed to say that we cannot know whether Muhammad existed even though we have the Quran but at the same time you believe in parts of the Quran. So my answer might not satisfy you as it partly draws upon the Quran.

I would like to respectfully add a post because posts cannot be edited after a certain amount of time and posts also can't be deleted.

There was a typo in this post that came across that I should mention that was a typo.

There is also something else that I would briefly clarify.

I don't log into this forum much at all, and I no longer have a Quran only approach. I would simply say I follow Islam and the Quran, but not a Quran-only approach. I wanted to add this post respectfully for clarification.

I had received advice before from a moderator when I asked about this, about posts can't be edited or deleted, but to add a new post even if the thread is older.

The post is from many years ago. It's that I happened to come across the typo when I did a search on the forum. This came across as a typo that I should mention was a typo.

"Like when it says that Iblis rejected what God asked of Him, when God simply asks why did you not do what I asked, Iblis states that its essentially because of racism."

What I meant "Like when it says that Iblis rejected what God asked of him, when God simply asks why did you not do what I asked, Iblis states that its essentially because of racism."

I meant the lowercase "him" in the sentence I have placed in quotation marks.

When I mentioned about modern science creating weapons, I meant in weapons science, the bombs used in airstrikes and other weapons that kill innocent people and cause a lot of devastation for the area.

I mentioned this respectfully as a clarification.

I've been advised that if a thread I wrote on a topic no longer represents the beliefs I have on the topic now, that I can write a post even if the thread is older because we can't delete or modify posts. So this post is about that my beliefs on the topic of the shahadah in the Quran has changed and the original post on this thread does not represent my beliefs on this topic of the second shahadah as commonly known. I think the second shahadah, as often referred to, actually makes sense considering the Quran as the final revelation from Allah swt. Other posts here, or on other threads, may also not represent my beliefs now, but I didn't have the time to go through each page and check the context of the discussion. I would simply say I follow Islam and the Quran, but not a Quran-only approach. I'm writing this only for reference, not really for discussion as I don't intend to log into this forum much at all and don't have the time for discussions either. I'm writing this post in case anyone does come across this thread by searching the forum and I don't want this thread to be misleading for anyone.

I don't really use this forum anymore but I wholeheartedly agree with most of hawk99's comments. I didn't agree much with another person on this thread but I am no longer interested in debate so I will talk about this issue generally. In terms of the general issue of responding to things - it depends on the context. I have been talking in the past with some Neo-Pagans who actually hold some Islamic values and one was responding to the 'haters' as they are called to her online content. It made perfect sense for her to handle the matter in that way and explain the things she needed to. The reason it upset her the way this person was behaving and the way she dealt with it has a back story that I knew about but others might not have. It wasn't her simply 'responding and reacting' to stuff. It was an issue of justice, an issue of right and wrong and an issue of morality. She has been good to some of those people in the past as well and they were just out of order. She was right to do what she did and some could say she was 'reacting'. We have to be conscious of whether or not the observer of the action is actually making a fair appraisal of the events of the person they are saying is responding or reacting for example. God is the best Judge of course. Our attitudes, intents and innermost thoughts count.

The point about not being dogmatic that hawk99 mentioned is true. When I talk with those who are not dogmatic because of the way they practice spirituality, the discussions are better and more constructive. Dogmatic and rigid people are in all walks of life though whether theist, atheist, agnostic, spiritual or not.

I would also say that the Israeli Palestinian conflict is not really about religion either since it was Zionism - a secular nationalist movement (religious Jews originally opposed Zionism I believe) that led to the creation of Israel etc.

Peace Man of Faith,

LTNS? Oh, is it Long time no see? Nice to see you!

May Allah's blessings be with you.

The situation in the world today is shaped by geopolitics, war, business, and then a mixture of culture and religion can come into play. To say that Islam is a big contradition is missing the precise vocabularly required to deal with this topic. It's not Islam, its humans, its a set of factions. This has gone on since humans began. The way the hadiths are used even - there is still an issue of corruption there. I do not follow hadith and there are many that go against the Quran, but hadith can still be misused like any other text.

Well if people were to research Islam independently the first thing they come across is the Quran. I have come across non-Muslims who say they never heard of the hadith at first and they only read the Quran to find out more. So some of the first ideas they can come across is oneness of God, mercy of God, etc. Everyone also has the opportunity to understand that God is uncreated etc as well via observation of the world/universe around them, as did Abraham. If they do their own research, they could also question why Hadith are followed when you take a look at what the Quran says.

Hi, I am new to Islam and to be true, I am new to studying religion. I was wondering, I see Islam in Christianity, Judaism in Islam, and I do read the Holy Qur'an. I don't see any out right hatred of anyone in the Qur'an. Why do we Hate?

Spot on. There is no out right hatred in the Quran. In fact, there is no room for 'hate' of any kind. Just like anger, it is destructive. In the Quran, all groups are talked about in terms of some of them believe and some of them do not - the People of the Book, desert Arabs, those who called themselves believers in the time of Prophet Muhammad and so on. Some of those who believe may do so weakly, some may do so wholeheartedly. That is for God to judge and creating stereotypes or hate for groups or people or a person, is just wrong. I believe the reason we hate has already been mostly answered here, I just felt like adding that.

Salam!

You are Jewish and you keep to some customs such as Shabbat but you are open to all sorts of spiritualities? I'm sort of eclectic in spirituality. I was born Muslim but practiced new age/modern Pagan spirituality/religion at one point in my life and there are some valuable aspects to the spirituality which are just generic and anyone could practice some form of aspects of it. The spirit of Shabbat could be the same. I follow the Quran now as a Muslim or some might call me a monotheist or even theist.

I became really interested in learning about Judaism at one point... Shabbat is described beautifully at times as well.

I also believe there is truth to many religions - as I believe the message that Allah has given mankind, there are remnants of it in many paths. I have mentioned that a bit on this forum but haven't been active in terms of posting on here recently.

I hope you find the answers you need and of course Allah is the Guide.

peace,

I think Quran advocates for the mumineen, a minimum of two daily regular/timed salat/bond. At the time, or shortly after the prophet's death, there likely was variance in practice, not only in the method but also the number. The Quran never strictly formalised it.
Thus, with all this variance, there was likely a push by later leaders and religious scholars towards orthodoxy, to make this practice more formalised, uniform etc hence the fixing of five. There are various theories as to the fixing of five, see
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600954.msg259782#msg259782

Peace Wakas,

Thanks, that's helpful.

I agree. The more I have studied Quran the more I have realised this.

What I guess I'd also add here to what I already included before is that the most important thing seems to be to know our relationship with God. To seek to further that relationship and follow the moral compass God has blessed us all with. So all the concerns over rituals in hadith etc go against the essence of the Quran. God cares that we are just, decent, show compassion to all living things not just human being etc, and these are things He has already imbued in us, as well as the ability to choose between right and wrong. Maybe that is why the punishments in the past were that way, because the message of morality - not rituals - was already so clear and so straightforwardly put for people both within themselves and from a Messenger among them.

w/salaam MofF,
Not necessarily
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0

Did you read the following, from link in my post above
http//www.scribd.com/doc/37518694/Uri-Rubin-Morning-and-Evening-Prayers-in-early-Islam-by-muslims

Peace Wakas,

I'm not using this forum much right now but I want to say thanks for sharing this information. Your posts are often very informative. Do you think the emphasis on 5 times a day prayer emerged after the Hadith was written about Prophet Muhammad negotiating prayers with God from 50 to 5 upon the recommendation of Prophet Moses? That Hadith also questions God's authority so much.

If 'piety' was attained by performing a certain amount of prayer, God would constantly mention the number we should be 'performing' salat. Instead, when God mentions these things, God mentions the concept of Salat, the concept of Zakat etc. God does not say salat must be done this way and that, zakat must be done this way and that. God is actually very easy going with us when we take a look and wants to encourage us in the right direction and not control our every move, thought and so on.

Salaam and welcome!

Well you've just got a sister who is mostly leaving this forum. When I first came here, I came across threads about how some people had left, and why this was the case and how they'd developed. I think I'm at that stage now but it's more that islam reveals itself in different ways, through the Quran but through other Signs. There is a lot more for me to learn I feel, and Allah swt reveals islam to an individual on a very personal and meaningful level. That's something that I don't think we get from simply agreeing or disagreeing on passages in the Quran, or giving our opinions on things based on the Quran. Allah swt is subtle, all aware.

I love him very much and know that having this difference in belief will not separate us. I feel no negativity towards him because of his opinion, I only wish he were more open minded and did more research. When I showed him articles describing Quran only he at first refused to even read it, then when he finally did he called it all bias (I still don't understand how) negative, and with very little support (which is untrue, there was support for almost every claim made and everything made perfect sense).

It is not my intention to change him to fit my ideas and opinions, but being honest with ourselves we obviously want our partner to agree on everything with us of course, I will not lie. But I love him how he is, Sunni or Quran only. We can work through these differences, I know. I just wish I knew some way to get him to put how he was raised and taught behind him and try to accept something he's not used to, somehow. Psychologically I know it's a hard cookie to crack. But if he truly has no interest, I will not force him to change or ever hold his traditionally brought up religious beliefs against him.

Peace everyone )

Peace,

Some ppl believe in things based on whims. So that applies to Sunni but also anyone including Quran only. The Quran mentions how some people would come to the Prophet and say things that please him but they actually believe in and cause corruption such as that found in war - destruction of crops and so on. There are also people who believe things based on purely one passing emotion and things like that.

There will be people who believe in Quran only for all sorts of reasons, sometimes it may even be as a reaction to hadith rather than the Quran and so on. It's just the way life is, and it seems like you don't need to figure out anything in particular because either he will come to believe in his own way, and there are people out there who follow a different spirituality but they seem to be devoutly following the concept of justice, equality and so on as stated in the Quran. So as other people have stated on this forum before its not really 'Quran only' because there are many Signs of Allah swt that ppl believe in.

Welcome to the forum! )

Peace everyone, and thank you once again for your kind replies and for taking the time to write to me so detailed, I am very appreciative.

Well, I can't tell what you think of it, but I wrote it because they were general issues that were examples of what I was explaining. It wasn't really directed at you specifically, since I don't know whether you come from such a background. If anything, it would help a Pagan/follower of alternative religion/etc who reads it. There are quite a diverse amount of people reading this forum and although I'd like to start threads on different things and explain a lot, it would take too long so when I get an opportunity to mention something generally and examples then I put it in the post that it was at the very least, slightly related to. My references to modern Pagan spirituality can probably be found throughout this forum. At some time in the future I might start something more substantial, like a blog or something where I can explore the ideas I mentioned more. I know there is one Pagan who has a blog called a Pagan read the Bible. I like this kind of reflection, it's much more intelligent and considered than hurling criticism after criticism at someone else's path or religion like so many can do. Although I disagree with some things of course in every religion/spirituality, I can see in them some benefits, overlaps and elements of Islam , as a deen.

Hello everyone! Yes, that is my sweet beloved Ragdoll kitten Nouri. He is a very loving companion. I feed my kittens (Nouri and Lolly) a purely raw diet from very detailed research. I believe that just as it is important to keep ourselves healthy, we must care for our pets and animals the same.

Aww. I'm not sure what you mean, do you mean you eat a purely raw diet and find it beneficial and so you do that with your animals? We definitely need to care for and love pets and animals. I would also say we should care for other living things, including the Earth as well. If they are aligned with the design of Allah swt and adore Allah swt in their own way etc, as is the whole of nature, then that means we can't refer to them in negative or pejorative ways like some people do. The Quran is actually outside of those traditional ways of thinking. So when it says that those who ardently broke the Sabbath and God's continued guidance with Mercy, and says be ye apes despised etc - it is clearly not saying that apes are somehow now much lesser than us or that animals are 'below'. It is using a particular phrase but the Quran already says that these other living things are aligned with the Creator's ways so how can we think that way. It really seems like this is a very straightforward lesson in the Quran in terms of how we understand the concepts in the Quran itself. Sometimes, even the 'progressive' may still be using some limited approaches. That might be because we are human and we are all learning, but it might also be because they only want to understand what the Quran actually says on certain topics and other themes are less important to them or not considered as much or however it should be put. Traditional understanding is not always wrong, but the point is that we actually try to consider what the Quran ITSELF is actually saying.

Another example can be menstruation and how it says the point about having sexual intercourse when a woman is menstruating is a harm. Some, especially in traditional understanding, take this to mean that menstruation in and of itself is a 'harm' but that is not what the Quran is saying at all. (I'm actually not sure what that is even supposed to mean in practice, if they are saying that menstruation can be painful sometimes, I do not believe the Quran is necessarily referring to this here but a wider point in relation to sexual relations/relations during menstruation) The fact that women can perform ablution as well and salat in whichever way they do, is showing that the bit about 'cleansing' in that verse in translations, does not mean that women are 'unclean' at all. In fact, the Quran has none of the negative things towards menstruation that can be found in what we know of the bible today. Although I believe that the original message has been lost in the Bible but we can find the elements of the truth through the Quran as well as our own guidance and understanding from Allah swt. But ultimately, it is about understanding our relationship to Deity and that being creation is amazing and Deity is intimately connected with us, in a way we don't fully know, but we have to choose whether we want to be close to the Deity in our daily lives. That got a little longer and off topic but I thought of more things I could put down here about limited ways that things are considered.

I am happy I have never been afraid to be the minority. Also, I do agree that the Sunni's are not doing anything sinful or wrong, simply that they are misguided. Who can blame them anyway? When there's over a billion Muslims in the world that tell you to practice a certain way and all the mosques practice the religion this way, who wants to deviate from this? ( Sometimes life is a confusing thing. There's power in numbers and much influence to the masses.

Just to clarify, I meant the people who are practicing alternative or other spiritualities and could understand some of those things in the Quran instantly because they are open to it. Other people such as atheists or those who only take the Western scientific approach as valid often do not like to accept certain things beyond that very particular set of ideas. Even if there are other valid approaches. There can be others who are doing some right things as well, but I would say that those who truly want to find out what the Quran says would not be afraid from not being part of the majority, 'religiously' or 'spiritually' speaking.

That reminds me the way we use these terms, really shows that our own terminology is lacking. Some people say how the Quran may take a bit longer to understand or at times there are some issues over interpretations. That might be because we already have lacking terminogy or are not open to different ideas. Our terminology can already not explain or be appropriate for other concepts outside of the Quran.

Welcome to the forum!

I never liked swimming when I was younger. The chlorine or something. Is it really Sunnah to go swimming? So whatever the Prophet did, they will do. Well he most likely lived in a tent of some sort, so lets do that. nope

I'm not sure what normal things are, but I don't like to categorise things like that. We are all different and some people call anything different e.g. alternative spirituality as 'weird' or abnormal. I don't think that's what you mean and this isn't a criticism but just generally speaking.

I think the same attitude of staying within the 'boundaries' exists within Quran only sometimes. All of the Heavens and Earth and everything in it belongs to Allah swt. Or even in Western scientific ways of thinking e.g. that Jinn could not be beings made of fire in some shape or form and that magic never could be real. But there are people in alternative spiritualities who would read that in the Quran and instantly get it on that level and instantly 'click' with that. They might also view the way that everything has its own way to praise Allah swt - which is a statement of fact just like when we praise the beautiful weather and the Earth, the amazing nature of the universe etc - in a different way, understanding something very important about levels of consciousness and communication. So what I'm saying is, those people are not all wrong. They could be doing quite a few right things or have a good attitude but they just need to reconnect to the concept of Deity and so on.

Anyway, that was a bit of a post but it seemed appropriate. Is that your cat in your pic?

Peace All,

Me and my husband fasted for 3 nights starting on the night of the full moon following the longest day in June. We fasted when the thin light of day was distinguishable from the dark of night until night time ie from sundown to nighttime. That constituted approximately 1 hour and 15 minutes. Our fast was a word fast. I can assure you a word fast is far more difficult than a food fast even for 75 minutes. The word fast actually allowed us to think. It allowed us to enter into quietness.

Dawn.

Thanks for sharing your experience, Dawn. So your fast was from actual sunset to the time when the night is at it's darkest. I have not come across this interpretation but it's given me something to consider.

salat and wusta

discussed in detail here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0

Thank you for that link, Wakas. Before reading the Quran in greater depth and looking at the other verses, I wondered about salat-ul-wusta as a literal prayer. I've been praying two daily prayer for a while now.

general discussion The point is ultimately not the amount of time you do it though. Allah swt always mentions rememberance of Him (or dare we even say non-literal Her? after all Allah swt is not male or female and male and female is created by Allah swt) and salat might be more than just prayer as such. But there is no point remembering Allah swt if we don't follow through with all other things such as compassion, justice, equality, peacefulness, not twisting our words and disguising the bitterness in them, anti-racism/anti-ethnic superiority complex etc. I mean its all a work in progress, but the point is that we aren't flippant about those other things. The other thing is that people following some hadith could be doing similar things that we are. We always want to rush in and go well some of the Christians, Jews etc, they may believe even if they still believe and follow parts of the Bible, but what about those who follow the hadith very selectively - which means that they don't bring in contentious things like women must wear a headscarf if the Quran doesn't say that plainly there either, so it's not like they twist anything. And I really do not believe that Guidance is not simply knowing to not follow hadith.

Peace,

"Obi-Wan once thought like you do. You don't know the power of the Dark Side"

Luke "You're coming with me. I will not leave you here. I've got to save you." Anakin "You already have, Luke.

This last conversation they have is emotionally touching. He saved him from the grip of Shaytaan and seemingly forgiven by God for all evil because he brought balance to the Force eventually. The last tiny portion of willpower made him throw the demon Palpatine over the railing. There was still good in him.

I always try to mix up my religious belief with what I see in these spiritual aspects of philosophical movies.

God bless you

Aww, I like how you find the references to Quranic themes, because they are natural themes that are part of our humanity. Although, I do not view shaytan as an actual person, I understand what you mean. I sometimes hear lyrics of songs and how that song can be reinterpreted as though it's for God rather than to a person.

Peace Dua,

Another piece of advice I just thought of for a newcomer and that effects everyone but sometimes we seem to forget it that we will face 'tests' or lessons and challenges along our path although these may be somewhat different to each other. That sometimes the things that come to mind, and our understanding of the Quran and even all the signs of Allah swt throughout the world - that these are not always accurate instanteously. That it can take time to come to understand the Quran and this is a learning process. So there is nothing to worry about if we get something wrong just as long as we are open to learning and moving on by Allah's swt leave. Hope this helps!

Peace Dua,

Welcome and I'm glad you have moved towards the Quran and searched for yourself. Maybe when you were agnostic you were actually a theist. Between my time from a not very religious Muslim who had not read the Quran to Paganism as a teenager, I called myself a theist for a short while. Then I actually read the Quran. I think sometimes on our own path we might not be ready to read the Quran until a certain time, as we would read it more with an open mind and attune with it only at a certain time. It's possible and of course some never 'attune' with it but it could be there is a time that is more right for us after we have pondered and explored a few other things. Allah swt knows that best and it could be that Allah swt is just very patient with us.