General Issues / Questions

Just a question Edip Yuksel, what do you think flags have to do with peace? As much as words have someting with something, symbols and pictures too have something with something. Edip

I always think.. how would you like to be treated? with some people you can involve them in your life more than others. that's how it is with everyone. it's not a necessity to associate yourself with people you're not comfy with. not everyone is open minded to hearing different perspectives. it challenges their belief and it's a "threat". that can be frightening, people may not want to consider. differences exist even amongst people of the same beliefs. i think it's normal for people to question and ponder their beliefs. as we grow we learn and we change. sometimes without even noticing. learning knowledge for yourself is a great suggestion savage carrot made. own studies is good as you can form your own opinions and bias rather than swaying with what you hear from others. i guess it's normal to want to be reassured, to feel you haven't been alienated or deviant or just to know the unknown. peace

Salaam Bigmo There was a similar discussion about this here We discussed crucifixion and it turned into a discussion of qisas which I think is relevant to your discussion. The problem lies in the fact that the verse talking about cutting of hands is mirrored with what Pharaoh says. The Gospel confirms the crucifixion so I believe in it. The trinity is another matter. The Koran attacked the Trinity and not crucifixion. It countered the Judaic claim to Jesus' death and not the Gospel account. The Judaic account also accused Mary of sexual miscinduct. its that the Koran talked about in the crucifixion verse and not the Gospel account. As far as Pharoah and his use of crucifixion I think the verse says cutting the hands from opposite sides and I know there are different interpretations for that including wrapping the hands against each other from the back as some crucifixions used to do. But the Koran is clear about an eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth and a soul for a soul. So a hand for hand also. My two cents.

salam good point, i wonder that myself sometimes. but more i wonder when people do interact with each other how badly they mistreat one another, its like they forget theyre dealing with fellow human beings. idk how it got to this, slowly i guess, from an early age, and people eventually came to accept it as normal, to mind their own business, to fear others, to mistreat each other.... life to me, it means more school work hehe, it means education, development, ... has nothing to do with how much money you got, how many kids you want, how much pleasure youre getting, how big a house you got..... has to do with how you behave how you are as a person life to me is an experience in a particular realm, like dreams are another reality, this life is another reality, and one day we will wake up and see what we did and how we were wrong.... this particular life is supposed to be hard the way it is, theres supposed to be pain, suffering, disasters... its because God made evil in it, its nothing wrong with that, its supposed to be an obstacle, so lets see who of us can overcome it

Peace Edip Thanks for your reply. Re the "official / unofficial" wording. Well spotted! Eek. I suppose using the word "official" in my announcement of the launch ("The official website of the Quranists Network is now up&quot could be seen to be presumptuous on my part, indulgent or possibly wishful thinking! The intention is that in time, the Quranists Network will become recognised and popular enough that it will be easy for people to find out what Quranism is all about, and it is also a place where people can contribute articles and blog posts. There is a new Quranist Blog Directory over at http//QuranistVoices.wordpress.com which is where ppl can register with WordPress and submit content directly - the idea being that the diverse nature of Quranists and their beliefs and views will be collected in a central place. We are also planning to put news / updates about the Quranists Magazine, Conferences and meet-ups / events, inshaaAllah. I guess I wrote "official" because it was "officially" ready to launch after being in stages of development for a while. In no way did I mean to imply any other Quranist sites were "unofficial" or less recognised or less important. Hope I didn't cause any offence. I probably meant that it I consider it now "officially" launched?! Maybe I'll stay away from using that word now - sounds a bit too authoritarian come to think of it - ironic really considering the nature of the site. Hope that clears things up, and I do hope you will visit the site, inshaaAllah, despite my little faux-pas there. If you have any blogs or articles you would like to submit, please feel very welcomed. Peace Asfora

Peace all, Can anyone please shed light on the above verses-415 to 16? 415 is saying that if a woman is guilty of lewdness, she should be given a house arrest till death or that another option is provided. 4 16 is saying that if two people are guilty of the same, they should be purnished but if repented and mend, they should be left alone.. 416 is ok by me but not 415. My question is this, is it not possible the woman reffered to in 415 repent and mend to earn the pardon offered in 416? ZUBAIRUS. I believe 415 is the fairest rule and softest possible according to my understanding. if your wife commit adultery, you keep her home, meaning , she loose her job, she become a house wife. or , if she doesn't accept this rule, ou you don't accept this rule, that Allah (the Law) will find another way for her, meaning , Divorce. This verse said , Min nissa'ikoum, meaning from the citizens and not the rulers. Male and femele. in verse 416, is more harsh, because there is a punishement, for men or women who rule , responsible people , ( he says MINKOUM) that is why there is punishement. ADHA is , prison/explusion These 2 verse are the only Law about adulteres the verse of Zani and Zaniya are not about adultery nor fornication, but they are about Obscenity Zina = Obscenity. Allah knows best

rahenijaat1 Assalamu Alaikum. I respect your devotion to THE MESSAGE. Please allow me to inform you that this "UMMAH" is not following Sahih Al-Bukhari . They are studying the Sahih Al-Bukhari and others to EXTRACT the actual practice of the messenger. The "MESSAGE" has clearly stated that we cannot be guided and get Allah's mercy other than following this messenger. The message has clearly stated that if we love Allah then we must follow the messenger. Salam and Peace on you! So, you mean following the Messenger is Sahih Al-Bukhari? Please read the following with patience. May be we will come to some interesting conclusion. Denier of the names of Sahaba, is out of Islam??? Salam and Peace, everyone! A non-muslim reads Al-Quran. And he accepts Islam. He says that he has (Iman in Allah,---the last Prophet and all the previous Prophets and Messengers,---Al-Quran and all the previous Scriptures,---Angels,---and The Judgement Day). He further says that he has Iman in everything that Allah has mentioned in His Exalted Quran. He says that Allah mentioned that the Prophet had companions (Al-Baqarah-285), so he has Iman that there are companions of the Prophet. But, since, Allah didn't mention, in His Exalted Book of Islam, the names, which are said to be the names of the companions---Aub Bakar, Umar, Usman, Ali, Fatima, Hasan, Hussain, Abu Huraira, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Abbaas---so the new-muslim says he will not accept these names as the names of the companions of the Prophet. These names are in the books of history. And Allah didn't command me to have Iman in the books of history. The new-muslim clarifies that he is not saying the Prophet did not have companions. The Prophet had companions,---but their names are not mentioned in Al-Quran, so he will not accept these names as the names of the companions. ========================================================================= Respected brothers/sisters! Please answer any one of the following questions 1)---Do you think that this new-muslim, is still a muslim? Or--- 2)---Do you think that the new-muslim, by not accepting these names as the names of the companions of the Prophet,-----is out of Islam? If your answer is that he is out of Islam,---then in that case, your answer must be supported by a Verse from Allah's Quran. Because when a person fulfills the basic requirements of Iman, (Iman in Allah,---the last Prophet and all the previous Prophets and Messengers,---Al-Quran and all the previous Scriptures,---Angels,---and The Judgement Day),---then Allah declares him a momin. And if by not accepting the names of Sahaba (names are not mentioned in Al-Quran, it is in the history), he is out of Islam,-----then It is only Allah alone Who can declare him out of Islam. No answer will be accepted if it is not supported by Allah's Verse from The Exalted Quran. ================================================================================================== In answer to above statement, a nice and respected brother said; "Yes, the denier of the the names of the Sahaba of the last Prophet is out of Islam. Because the Sahaba of Noah are mentioned in The Quran, so go and get the names of the Sahaba of Noah." -------I answered to the above. To whom should we go to get the names of those Sahaba of Noah (AS)? Go to Allah?---But, Allah did not mention their names in His Safe, Holy and Exalted Quran. (Remember, Allah's Quran is The Only Truth in the universe. So my Allah is not giving me the names of those Sahaba in His Quran). Now, history is left. Should we go to the historians (humans) to know the names of the Sahaba of Noah (AS)? History???-----which is full of fabrications, lies and corruption!!! History has always been influenced by unjust rulers and corrupt rich classes and corrupt religious ulama karam. History has always been written,---not to guide people to The Right Path,---but to hide the crimes of the above mentioned three unjust and cruel classes (unjust rulers and corrupt rich classes and corrupt religious ulama karam). So, here, we are in a serious trouble, brother!---because,--- ---Allah Himself has decided not to give us the names of the Sahaba of the last Prophet, Abu Bakar, Umar, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussain, Ayesha. Talking about History!---it is full of fabrication. So, where should we go now to save our Iman,-----Because, as you quoted, that such a person is not a momin, in spite of fulfilling the basic requirements of Iman, because he denies to have Iman in the names of the Sahaba given in the history??????? So,-----what is the solution to this trouble? Yes, we should go to our CareTaker Allah. Because, only Allah alone can take us out of this trouble. So,---I ask my Allah, "O my Allah, if knowing the names of the Sahaba and the family members of the last Prophet, is compulsory for my Iman, then please give us the names of those rightly guided people. -----Indeed, You are The Hearer, All Knower!" And brother!---Do you know what solution my Allah gave to me? -----"That was a nation (the Messengers, their companions) which has passed away. For them is that which they earned, and for you is that which you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do." (Al-Baqarah-134) Contemplate! The brother said, "And there are many Prophets with them are their companions , you have to get all the names of them all, cause they are all blessed by Allah and saved, otherwise you will not be a Mu'min." -------My answer to the above. No, brother! Allah do not Will us to know the names of those Sahaba of the Prophets. If it had been compulsory to know the names of the Sahaba of all the Prophets, Allah Himself would have given their names, and had ordered us to have Iman in them. Rather, Allah declares clearly that you don't have any need to know those Sahabas, and you don't have to worry about them. -----"That was a nation (the Messengers, their companions) which has passed away. For them is that which they earned, and for you is that which you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do." (Al-Baqarah-134) So, my dear brother, I don't have to worry about the companions of the Prophet. And they don't have to worry about me. Everyone must worry about his ownself only. For them is that which they earned. For me is that which I earn. We are not responsible for each other. Then why should I worry to know their names? The Verses from our Allah's Exalted Quran, that you have quoted, only tells us that there were Sahaba of the Messengers, but do not command us to get those names. Knowing those names of the Sahaba, will not benefit us in the least,-----because, no one else, but Allah Himself has stopped us to establish any relationship with those Sahaba. -----"That was a nation (the Messengers, their companions) which has passed away. For them is that which they earned, and for you is that which you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do." (Al-Baqarah-134) Yes, Allah will not ask us what did they use to do,---what did they use to say,---and what did they narrate about Islam and about the sayings of the Prophet. Yes, nothing,----Allah guarantees us that He will not ask us about anything that those Sahaba used to do, and used to say. According to Allah, we have no relationship with what they did, and what they said. Dear brother, if Allah had Willed, He Himself would have given us the names of the Sahaba, the family members of the Prophet, (Abu Bakar, Umar, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussain, Ayesha)-----but, since, Allah Himself Willed, not to let us know the names of the Sahaba and the family members of the last Prophet,----then who can go against Allah's Will? What names Allah Willed, gave in His Exalted Book. Iblees, Korah are condemned,---to tell us not to become like them. Zul Qurnain, Luqman are admired,---to tell us to become like them. What Allah Willed, He did. ====================================================================================================== Now, brother!---Do we know, why Allah do not Will us to know the names of those Sahaba and the family members of The Last Prophet? Yes, because,---"Personality-worshipping"---starts by knowing the names of those rightly-guided people. People start talking, mentioning, remembering, adoring,-----and eventually end up worshipping those family members of the Prophet and the Sahaba by taking and following the alleged narrations, that are linked with those people. Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussain, Abu Huraira, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Abbaas,---are these names not being worshipped??? Are these names not being worshipped, besides Allah??? Are the fabricated narrantions linked with these Sahaba not being taken as Deen, instead of Allah's Quran????? Whereas, Allah declares -----"That was a nation (the Messengers, their companions) which has passed away. For them is that which they earned, and for you is that which you earn. And you will not be asked of what they used to do." (Al-Baqarah-134) The ummah has got no business with the names of the family members of the Prophet and the Sahaba. Respected brothers/sisters! Is it not true, that Allah didn't mention the names of the Sahaba in His Exalted Quran and never commanded us to have Iman in the names of the Sahaba.---Yes, it is true! So, is it not true, that if a person says he will not have Iman in the names of the Sahaba which are not in Al-Quran, he is not a kafir???---Yes, he is not a kafir! So, when a person have no Iman in the names Umar, Ali, Fatimah, Abu Huraira, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Abbaas,----then why should he have Iman in the narrations which are, allegedly, linked with them??? If someone tells a person, "Abu Huraira said." That person will say, "Who is Abu Huraira? I don't have Iman in him. So why should I accept whatever he says?" Did you see, with this the whole fabric of The Science of Hadith becomes ramshackle-----so obviously! And the whole fabric of Shia Deen crumbles down,-----even more obviously! Every corruption in Deen starts by having Iman in the names of the family members of the Prophet, and the Sahaba of the Prophet. Once people accept these names as the names of the family members of the Prophet, and his Sahaba,---now, they can never deny what is narrated (ahadith) using their names. And accepting these names (Abu Bakar, Umar, Usman, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussain, Abu Huraira, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Abbaas)---is not Allah's Will.-----Allah's Quran, is Allah's Will. So, there are no ahadith in Islam. And there is no Shia Sect in Islam. These two are nothing but, Corruption in Deen. And this is Allah's Will, that other than His Exalted Quran, everything is Corruption. =================================================================== This is Allah's Will. Read Allah's Quran, more and more, repeatedly,----to know Allah's Will.

Salam and Peace! Peace Edip. I agree on all your points. It has nothing to do with Islam, that's for sure.. I just thought it was interesting because first I laughed at the claim (as I've seen others here do), but upon further thinking it made more sense. If it has got nothing to do with Islam, then why this alleged statement is in the so-called book of Islam??? People are in fact, doing Personality-Worshipping. They are not obeying,-----but worshipping the Messenger (SAW). They are worshipping the names Abu Bakar, Umar, Usman, Ali, Fatimah, Hasan, Hussain, Abu Huraira, Abdullah ibn Umar, Abdullah ibn Masood, Abdullah ibn Abbaas, etc. They, rever, remember, adore,---and eventually end up worshipping these names of the family members of the Prophet and the Sahaba of the Prophet, whereas these names are not in Allah's Quran. Allah Himself didn't Will us to know these names of the Sahaba, because people start worshipping these names and whatever lie and falsehood is linked with these names, they take it as Deen, out of their reverance for these non-Quranic names. Right from the beginning, people have always been running away from Allah,---and worshipping the names of the previous pious people. Whenever the Messengers came, they called people to Worshipping and Serving Allah, by following His Sayings (Revelations).

peace, you might find www.learn-about-islam.com helpful, as it has a section on slavery.

There is an abundant source of articles about Quranism and Quranists on Quranists Network And here is a brand new blog post about submitters and quranists

Tell me.. create an "Environmental Law" which governs regulations on building houses/factories on river banks and also protection of the "jungle" especially rainforest according to the Quran. Salam / Peace The Koran acts like a constitution. Its not a legal text, it is a spiritual and ethical text. As far environment and so forth there are many instances the Koran can be used as an inspiration. In the end we humans have to interpret the Koran for ourselves. The whole basis of the Koranic sytem of statehood as compare with the sects is about authority. In the Koran authority of the prophets, humans and angels is limited over the religious affairs and choices of humans. In the sects the authority is absolute. Thats because all the verses that limits the authority of the prophet to an authority of a preacher and warner and not an enforcer, have been abrogated by the sects. They then came up with hadiths that gives the prophet and his companions after him divine like authority. This divine like authority can now be transfered to the dictator. So there is a very strong libertarian tradition in the Koran. The Koran also relies on proprtional retribution as justice. An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. It also believes in individual reponsibility and each to carry their own burden and nobody elses 17.15. Who receiveth guidance, receiveth it for his own benefit who goeth astray doth so to his own loss No bearer of burdens can bear the burden of another nor would We visit with Our Wrath until We had sent an apostle (to give warning). As far as authority is concerned, the Koran is very explicit about this and very blunt 1682 But if they turn away from you, your only duty is a clear delivery of the Message . 6107 Yet if God had so willed, they would not have ascribed Divinity to aught besides Him; hence, We have not made you their keeper, nor are you a guardian over them. 479-80 Say'Whatever good betides you is from God and whatever evil betides you is from your own self and that We have sent you to mankind only as a messenger and all sufficing is God as witness. Whoso obeys the Messenger, he indeed obeys God. And for those who turn away, We have not sent you as a keeper." 8821 22; And so, exhort them your task is only to exhort; you cannot compel them to believe. The sects believe that these verses have been abrogated by verse 9-5 and 9.29 (sword verses). They believe the prophet's authority extended beyond this and then the 4 Caliphs took over that authority and now its with the dictator. Big difference when it comes to Koranic authority and that of the sects which give the ruler Pharoah like authority. This is probably the biggest difference between the Koran and the sects. In the Koran authority is given to any ruler when a person violates another person's right and possession. While in the sects the ruler has divine authority who has the right to punish sin and in fact is god on Earth. Pagan societies used to have as their ruler divine authority who had some connection with the gods and was given divine authority while on Earth.

while hidden from us by arab/christians dictionnaries and hadiths made by the frensh / british and their childre christian libanese. to destroy "Islam" Hadiths are made by the French / British???????? Helloo????? Oh yes.. I forgot.. Bukhari are British his full name is Mr. Buckery III out of Lexington.. And Muslim are French his full name Monsieur Moslique Montague.. Dude you better read the history well.. by the time the "Hadiths" are invented there are only Britons / Celtics Tribes who can't even count 1 to 10 properly in the island called "British/Briton Isle". And Gaul/Goth who pretty much at the same level as the Britons populate the area which is now being called as France. Having said that.. Why would the British/French want to destroy "Islam"???? From my opinion It was the arabs / middle eastern folks itself who ruin and corrupting God's teachings and wisdom.. As Quran said "When good tidings fallen upon you it is from God, When bad tidings fallen upon you it is from YOURSELF". Salam / Peace

However, what about this, verse does it indicate the necessity of forgiveness for the Parents' wrongdoing to their children? That despite everything we are encouraged to reconcile with our parents? What are the implications of this verse? And We enjoined man to do good to his parents. His mother bore him with hardship, gave birth to him in hardship, and his bearing and weaning lasts thirty months. So that, when he has reached his independence, and he has reached forty years, he says My Lord, direct me to appreciate the blessings You have bestowed upon me and upon my parents, and to do good work that pleases You. And let my progeny be righteous. I have repented to You; I am of those who have submitted. I don't think that their is anything that i've read in the above verse which i've highlighted, that says anything about "the necessity of forgiveness for the Parents' wrongdoing to their children" (although the children can choose to forgive if they want/can) and more about how GOD wants us to treat our parents in your own words "an ideal sitiuation" with ideal parents, but unfortunately not all parents are ideal and that's why GOD in his wisdom gave us verses like 4135 about standing up to injustices to all, aswell as our parents and I think we can all agree that any parent that causes chilhood verbal/physical/ sexuall abuse (apart from killing them) is the WORST of injustices, not only to the children, but to GOD himself, who gave the parents their children. Also even if our parents reach old age and we choose to forgive them for their past abuse of us and we decide to look after them, we are still told by GOD in some verses that we are NOT to obey them if they try and make us commit shirk/idolitary or anything which goes against GOD'S Quran. This is just my understanding.

Salaam, Ridiculous video. By the way for those who don't understand, the title means "have you gotten married?" I agree with Sarah and I think 4912 answers your question. What the person did would shame the couples and the families, and would incur more harm than good. If someone thinks that a bad deed is taking place, in this case the couples being intimate, they should be upfront and advise them about what they think. It will be more effective that the coward way such as exposing them for public viewing. Disgusting.

This thread keeps going around and around and around and gets no where. It did get Mesmorial off his high horse for a bit. The progression of the posts was worth the price of entry for me personally.

Salam Servant Of The Compassionate and Truth.. First you need to explain on what do you mean by "Makkah of the Quran".. Second.. just because the name are quite similar it doesn't mean that it's the same.. so better watch out for this trap.. Third the research of 'mitochondrial Eve" does prove genetically that most probably the first (traceable) mother of all homo sapiens are originated in the area which you mentioned.. http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mitochondrial_Eve

Too bad Pakistan lost it to India in the semi huh?

And when they come across those who believe, they say We believe!And when they are alone with each other they say Why do you inform them of what God has said to us? Then they would use it in argument against us at your Lord. Do you not comprehend? 276 Have you not noted him who debated with Abraham regarding his Lord, while God had given him a kingship? Abraham said My Lord is the One who gives life and death, he said I bring life and death. Abraham said God brings the sun from the east, so you bring it from the west. The one who rejected was baffled! And God does not guide the wicked people. 2258 If they debate with you, then say I have submitted myself to God, as well as those who follow me.... 320 Whoever debates with you in this after the knowledge has come to you, then say Let us call our children and your children.. 361 Many other verses always mean the same, the verb HAJJ = Debate, therefore the HAJJ AKBAR is the great debate, like UNITED NATIONS now. HAJJ is supposed to be the whole world leaders meet to debate. it used to be somewhere before the colonisation, maybe Egypt, or north Africa, or maybe it was always in the states, Allah knows where it used to be, when the world was united. The chapter in the Koran called Haj says otherwise. It makes it clear that there is a ritual and rite and its a from of worship. However all societies have that. Haj to Mecca is a way to perform this but its not something you can amke obligatory.

Besides the spirit of covering is modesty and recognition as free believing women, so that they will not be harassed. O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons that is most convenient, that they should be known and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful. Therefore the "jilbab" (and not the veil by the way) serves as a protection and not merely to visually display the "muslimness" of a woman. The message of that verse is very clear. In contemporary language it can read like this wear modest clothes outside so people won't get the wrong idea and start molesting you. This was addressed in detail by my previous posts. The Qur'an mentions that they should be recognisable in a context (3359). The Qur'an brings the material commandment in 2431, thus women should ALWAYS be recognisable as Muslims, or rather all modest women SHOULD bear a likeness to Muslim women (because Muslim women should also be modest). Headscarf is not a definite requirement in the Qur'an, but it fulfils the spirit and it is certianly not unIslamic. Peace.

We have to go in details by reading some good books on the subject rather relying on googling. The slave population was added to by the custom of child abandonment, the kidnapping, or, occasionally, the sale of small children. Free persons were also able to sell their offspring, or even themselves, into slavery. Enslavement was also possible as a consequence of committing certain offenses against the law, as in the Roman Empire. We can classify the slaves in to Three major types Born as a slave Purchased slave Captive of a War Female slaves were at times forced into prostitution for the benefit of their masters in accordance with Near Eastern customs. That is why in another thread I was strongly advocating to JUST know Grammar, or the meaning of the Words does not allow you to unfold the actual meanings of what Quran is saying. And I am more than happy that "Ayman" has second what I am trying to say, let us see what he says ma malakat aymanukum ("that which your right hands own&quot Any one who is familiar with Arabs and their culture will not have to run for different meanings Just to appease some Western "good hearten people". Slaves were then a reality and Quran deals with it at different occasions. We are talking about Koran and not some Western stuff. The West's history in slavery is well known anyways. Slavery is banned for believers in the Koran. If it was a reality well so was paganism. The Koran speaks abundantly about freeing slaves. So how can you say it allowed believers to own slaves? Thats like saying the Koran orders the believers to feed the poor yet also sees no wrong with starving them. Thats called a contradiction. It is clear from the story of Moses and the Pharoah that slavery was one of the characters of the Pharoah the Koran refered to when it called him a tyrant. Captives of war are prisoners. So are you telling me that captives should be enslaved? And why would the Koran order the believers to feed the prisoners when it allows you to enslave them? Utter contradiction.