General Issues / Questions

lazy thinkers,yep they exist. peace

peace, The wise wrote, The bubbles are to be found on the surface of the sea. The depth of the sea is free from bubbles. The commotion is to be seen on the surface, the depth of the sea is still. The mind is the commotion of that something that is within us, that something which we call heart. The happiness, knowledge, pleasure and love that is stored in our innermost being is in our profound depth. Changing emotions and passions, dreams, ever-rising thoughts and imaginations, all belong to the surface, as the bubbles belong to the surface of the sea. To attain peace, what one has to do is to seek that rhythm which is in the depth of our being. It is just like the sea the surface of the sea is ever moving; the depth of the sea is still. And so it is with our life. If our life is thrown into the sea of activity, it is on the surface. We still live in the profound depths, in that peace. But the thing is to become conscious of that peace which can be found within ourselves. It is this which can bring us the answer to all our problems. If not, when we want to solve one problem, there is another difficult problem coming. There is no end to our problems. There is no end to the difficulties of the outer life. And if we get excited over them, we shall never be able to solve them. Some think, 'We might wait. Perhaps the conditions will become better. We shall see then what to do.' But when will the conditions become better? They will become still worse! Whether the conditions become better or worse, the first thing is to seek the kingdom of God within ourselves, in which there is our peace. As soon as we have found that, we have found our support, we have found our self. And in spite of all the activity and movement on the surface, we shall be able to keep that peace undisturbed if only we hold it fast by becoming conscious of it. peace

lol

You were/are basically forced into believing in a created image of a "God" that that group believes in and if you reject/-ed their view then you're basically rejecting Allah/the Great Force, according to that group/sect. Rejecting the Great Force, means punishment, and punishment means LITERALLY 'burning in Hell', a world of FIRE. peace I think this is the problem with translating "islam" as "submission" (as Idolfree pointed out). The book says to submit. Well, what do you submit to? Who's interpretation? And if you don't submit, you burn in hell! That's why there are so many sects, because people have their own idea of what God is. But if it means "peacefulness," then that takes away the confusion because when we are at peace, we have the ability to think clearly and choose the right path. And if you aren't at peace, then you are probably in pain. IMO, it makes much more sense that way. And this is true even if islam does mean submission. sorry if this is off topic. But I don't suppose Allah has to apologize. We're still evolving! We're always evolving, but unfortunately, some like to fix a label to themselves and believe that they are already there and what they think or do will not affect their position. But that's just my personal opinion. Everybody is free to believe in whatever and however they want... aslong as they're being righteouss and tolerant to everybody in the whole wide world (do not limit yourself to only your little community on a little piece of "rented" land), because I believe that that is what ISLAM a.k.a. SUBMISSION TO 'PEACE' mostly is about! the problem is that actions are the result of beliefs. So people's beliefs have to be right for their actions to be right. People have to judge their own thoughts and not let them grow and eventually turn into actions. So our focus has to be right. sincerely, Allah (a.k.a God)

Salamun alaykum When I started this thread , my intention was to find out from the People in this Forum about what is the compelling reason to change al-Quran into The Great Reading and also what possible benefit this change would bring to the Believers ( Muslims ) . If I did not express myself clearly , I offer my apologies . I was never against Translating The Whole Quran into an Easily understood Languages as I stated in my subsequent posts . The reason I did not condensed them all in the Initial post is nothing other than Readabilty . I do not believe in writing a lengthy and wordy post , I try to avoid as much as I can Argumentum Verbosium . If I feel like writing a long and wordy piece , I'd write a feature article instead. Just to clarify my View of the subject of this thread again , I prefer to use the The key Terms such as " The Quran , Muslim , Islam , Salam etc , however , I am not against Translated meanings and all is free to follow their own beliefs anyway . We do not have much more in common than The Deen Al-Islam , The Quran or The Reading , so let us stick to the Glue that binds Us . Peace almarh0m

Indeed Egypt is a very bad country it is the oeople and the government who made it bad at a time Egypt was one of the best and richest countries in the world Salam

Peace Yosemite There is proof that Shareef's claim is false because he has not attempted to go to his people to share the message, nor has he come to teach what we already do not know, though he claimed to have advanced knowledge. Joe

Peace be upon you Almarh0m, The Slave and The King is One , reflect on this please . Yes, ALL is One, at the innermost level, at the outermost level, there is the illusion of seperateness, and that is the great TEST, can you REMEMBER that all is ONE? If we can, wars would stop, corruption would stop, etc. The king and the slave are one just as the heart cells and the brain cells are one body. All of creation is really electrons, protons and nuetrons in different configurations, is that not ONE? By the way , what do you think it was like before The GOD created anything ? Just a Void ? Thats easy, the same way it is for you when you go to sleep but are not dreaming. Was The GOD lonely ? Are you lonely when you are sleep and are not dreaming?

Peace be upon you, I do intend to make my own translation, mainly for personal use, but whoever would like a copy is welcome to it. You should put it on the FreeMinds site. I?m sure there would be a great demand for it. ) peace

I'm not really sure as to what Khalil has got, since he only said, "The same message?" Maybe brother Khalil would let us know what he meant. Peace Mehdi, Picture this for a moment ), Khalil in blue trousers is khalil in blue trousers, khalil in red trousers is khalil in red trousers and khalil in black trousers is khalil in black trousers. Although my trousers change, I still remain Khalil. I may discard my trousers at any moment and still remain as khalil. It is the same with the message, it wears many terms, many trousers. The message its self is not dependant on those terms, they can be discarded without discarding the message. peace, Khalil

peace, From memory, I cannot recall any mods/admin deleting or discussing deletion of any of Natu's posts. I do recall posts being lost (including my own) a few times though. There is a simple fix. If they were indeed deleted due to content, simply re-post and we can all see if there is a big bad board conspiracy against Natu. Secondly, baseless accusations are just that, baseless.

peace all, salgan, your comments disappoint me. I will reply to some of your points briefly, as I do not wish to begin a discussion. If you wish to, feel free to pm me. Ask all members to agree to terms of the forum by sending an agreement message ,those who do not agree should be asked to leave politely. I know its a while since you joined, so perhaps you have forgotten but before registering you are asked to agree to the terms & conditions. Furthermore, the forum rules have been present on the forum and marked clearly for all to see. If you are going to moderate then you should moderate with authority instead of running to members when the going gets tough. So on the one hand you clearly state you want an open/transparent/voting system then you state the above. You are damned if you do and damned if you dont is that your system? Lastly, there is no running to members, its called informing them. Perhaps you'd wish we dont inform anyone the site may go offline. To all members, if a member has a genuine/valid reason to want their posts deleted, the mods/admin are willing to re-consider in such cases. Reasons such as spite/malice/revenge etc are not valid reasons.

Peace all The thing about Irshaad Manji is , that she appears like a an Intellectual giant among the Intellectual Pygmies -[ Salaam

peace be upon you yep progod i read bad,not extremist...but yeah i think im in the same group but mixed with fundamentalist,praying muslim too... peace

So, in a way, they're helping us? As odd as it may sound I understand it. No, I don't think so. These stories are there and available, it doesnt need faith freedom to help. The only thing they're showing is that they're insane, and obsessed much. It all depends on the individual, the Creator is always there to guide to the truth. Peace

Tariq Swaidan is that one moderate Kuwaiti Muslim guy right? I like him so much when he appeared on Doha Debates.

Salam IronSky~ Here is some ayat's that you can give them to admonish their perception of the following Elaborating on the authority of the Sunnah and its significance as a primary source of Islam, only second to the Qur'an, we'd like to cite the following "The Qur'an is a miracle both in its external qualities and esoteric meaning. Its purpose is to expound the truth of the Absolute and the law of the Absolute. It is in essence the Truth and the Law. To glean the gems of knowledge and wisdom, so enormous in number, and so embedded in Qura'nic phraseology, to discern the specific from the general; to expound the meanings of the concise and the esoteric, to emphasize the basic content and the main purpose, to uncover the obscurities, to indicate reasons and justification, to crystallize and concretize the tenets, to prescribe the obligatory functions and the voluntary disciplines, in short, to provide a detailed commentary of the Divine Book without the aid of the divinely guided Teacher who presented the Qur'an would have been an impossible task. The ayat which will help to disprove this ideology for the neccesity of following the sunnah of muhammad is Surah 37 Al Imran-Yusuf Ali translation He it is Who has sent down to thee the Book In it are verses basic or fundamental (of established meaning); they are the foundation of the Book others are allegorical. But those in whose hearts is perversity follow the part thereof that is allegorical, seeking discord, and searching for its hidden meanings, but no one knows its hidden meanings except Allah. And those who are firmly grounded in knowledge say "We believe in the Book; the whole of it is from our Lord" and none will grasp the Message except men of understanding. Surah 223-24 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Ali translation 23.And if ye are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true. But if ye cannot- and of a surety ye cannot- then fear the Fire whose fuel is men and stones,- which is prepared for those who reject Faith. Suran 279 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Alit translation (* While this ayat may apply to the jews, its meaning applies to all who conduct this behavior*) Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from Allah," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby. !!! While the following ayat can be used in their argument, it is necessary to understand that Allah is speaking to the people living with Muhammad who followed possibly moses law, and jesus's scripture, but denied anything new in revelations and inspiration to a prophet among them. Surah 291 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Ali translation When it is said to them, "Believe in what Allah Hath sent down, "they say, "We believe in what was sent down to us" yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say "Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?" !!! Hence the following ayat in refutation to what they think. Surah 292-93 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Ali translation There came to you Moses with clear (Signs); yet ye worshipped the calf (Even) after that, and ye did behave wrongfully. And remember We took your covenant and We raised above you (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai) (Saying) "Hold firmly to what We have given you, and hearken (to the Law)" They said" We hear, and we disobey" And they had to drink into their hearts (of the taint) of the calf because of their Faithlessness. Say "Vile indeed are the behests of your Faith if ye have any faith!" More proofs of our perception Surah 2121 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Ali translation (* Why we should study the book god inspired to muhammad,not books supposedly inspired to man about muhammad*, when god says "The book" He is speaking singularly about the one and only book to follow.*) Those to whom We have sent the Book study it as it should be studied They are the ones that believe therein Those who reject faith therein,- the loss is their own. !!! While the following ayat can be used in their argument it is neccessary to understand that Allah is speaking of Abraham who is asking the following(* Abraham who was the first muslim, and the founder of islam,who would not condone or follow a mans interpretation of hadiths, but the word of god.) Surah 2129 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Ali translation "Our Lord! send amongst them an Messenger of their own, who shall rehearse Thy Signs to them and instruct them in scripture and wisdom, and sanctify them For Thou art the Exalted in Might, the Wise." !!! Hence the following ayat in refutation to what they think. Surah 2130-131 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Ali translation And who turns away from the religion of Abraham but such as debase their souls with folly? Him We chose and rendered pure in this world And he will be in the Hereafter in the ranks of the Righteous. Behold! his Lord said to him "Bow (thy will to Me)" He said "I bow (my will) to the Lord and Cherisher of the Universe." More proofs of our perception Surah 2151-152 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Ali translation A similar (favour have ye already received) in that We have sent among you an Messenger of your own, rehearsing to you Our Signs, and sanctifying you, and instructing you in Scripture and Wisdom, and in new knowledge. Then do ye remember Me; I will remember you. Be grateful to Me, and reject not Faith. Surah 319-20 Al Imran-Yusuf Ali translation The Religion before Allah is Islam (submission to His Will) Nor did the People of the Book dissent therefrom except through envy of each other, after knowledge had come to them. But if any deny the Signs of Allah, Allah is swift in calling to account. So if they dispute with thee, say "I have submitted My whole self to Allah and so have those who follow me." And say to the People of the Book and to those who are unlearned "Do ye (also) submit yourselves?" If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah.s sight are (all) His servants. !!! Here God is speaking on Muhammad's behalf , stating what muhammad would not do, completely making it clear not to follow hadiths in the name of muhammad or the sunnah of muhammad!!! Surah 379-80 Al Imran-Yusuf Ali translation It is not (possible) that a man, to whom is given the Book, and Wisdom, and the prophetic office, should say to people "Be ye my worshippers rather than Allah.s" on the contrary (He would say) "Be ye worshippers of Him Who is truly the Cherisher of all For ye have taught the Book and ye have studied it earnestly." Nor would he instruct you to take angels and prophets for Lords and patrons. What! would he bid you to unbelief after ye have bowed your will (To Allah in Islam)? !!! The following ayat is proof, as to why muhammad was a disputer between people about Allah ONLY while he was alive. Muhammads purpose thereafter and soley was to bring the inspiration and give us the truth and word of God, for us to submit rightly by the Quran and follow it and obey the inspiration(Quran). Surah 3101 Al Imran-Yusuf Ali translation And how would ye deny Faith while unto you are rehearsed the Signs of Allah, and among you Lives the Messenger. Whoever holds firmly to Allah will be shown a way that is straight. Surah 3105 Al Imran-Yusuf Ali translation Be not like those who are divided amongst themselves and fall into disputations after receiving Clear Signs For them is a dreadful penalty,- !!! We always here of the sunni's raising the companions of the prophet to prophet hood, and joining them with god, saying the companions are the best in God's eyes and we should strive to eximplify them, as we should strive to follow muhammads sunnah....well here is the thought of god on this!! Surah 3151 Al Imran-Yusuf Ali translation Soon shall We cast terror into the hearts of the Unbelievers, for that they joined companions with Allah, for which He had sent no authority their abode will be the Fire And evil is the home of the wrong-doers! More proofs of our perception Surah 3164 Al Imran-Yusuf Ali translation Allah did confer a great favour on the believers when He sent among them an apostle from among themselves, rehearsing unto them the Signs of Allah, sanctifying them, and instructing them in Scripture and Wisdom, while, before that, they had been in manifest error. (* Notice not the signs of Muhammad!*) Surah 482 Al Nisa-Yusuf Ali translation Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy. Surah 4122 Al Nisa-Yusuf Ali translation But those who believe and do deeds of righteousness,- we shall soon admit them to gardens, with rivers flowing beneath,-to dwell therein for ever. Allah.s promise is the truth, and whose word can be truer than Allah.s? Surah 4125 Al Nisa-Yusuf Ali translation Who can be better in religion than one who submits his whole self to Allah, does good, and follows the way of Abraham the true in Faith? For Allah did take Abraham for a friend. (* at the time of abraham, he did not practice any form of religion, but believed and had faith in ONE GOD, he even turned against his father for this faith*)(Abraham was not a practicing jew nor a practicing christian)( My interpretation is that islam is the quran, believed of the basis of one god prior by abraham, it was not necessary for abraham to follow man's interpretation of the prophets in order for him to be a believer...therefore, it is not neccessary for us to follow hadiths when Allah says the Quran is complete and detailed, and inspired soley to muhammad for us to be guided right.) Surah 2140 Al Baqarah-Yusuf Ali translation Or do ye say that Abraham, Isma'il Isaac, Jacob and the Tribes were Jews or Christians? Say Do ye know better than Allah. Ah! who is more unjust than those who conceal the testimony they have from Allah. but Allah is not unmindful of what ye do! Surah 4136 Al Nisa-Yusuf Ali translation O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Messenger, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Messenger and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His angels, His Books, His Messenger., and the Day of Judgment, hath gone far, far astray. !!! Here god is asking Muhammad..., why they come to him, and not ALLAH ALMIGHTY for their laws!!! Surah 543 Al Maidah-Yusuf Ali translation But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) law before them?- therein is the (plain) command of Allah. yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) People of Faith. !!! The Quran is your answer, your sunnah, your hadith, your example!!! Surah 5101 Al Maidah-Yusuf Ali translation O ye who believe! Ask not questions about things which, if made plain to you, may cause you trouble. But if ye ask about things when the Qur'an is being revealed, they will be made plain to you, Allah will forgive those for Allah is Oft- forgiving, Most Forbearing. !!! Here is muhammad's answer to Allah on the day that the people who conjectured our religion in his name, are judged.!!! Surah 5117 Al Maidah-Yusuf Ali translation "Never said I to them aught except what Thou didst command me to say, to wit, 'worship Allah, my Lord and your Lord'; and I was a witness over them whilst I dwelt amongst them; when Thou didst take me up Thou wast the Watcher over them, and Thou art a witness to all things. Surah 671 Al Anam-Yusuf Ali translation Say "Shall we indeed call on others besides Allah,- things that can do us neither good nor harm,- and turn on our heels after receiving guidance from Allah. - like one whom the evil ones have made into a fool, wandering bewildered through the earth, his friends calling, come to us', (vainly) guiding him to the path." Say "(Allah)'s guidance is the (only) guidance, and we have been directed to submit ourselves to the Lord of the worlds;- Surah 6106 Al Anam-Yusuf Ali translation Follow what thou art taught by inspiration from thy Lord there is no god but He and turn aside from those who join gods with Allah. Surah 6112-117 Al Anam-Yusuf Ali translation Likewise did We make for every Messenger an enemy,- evil ones among men and jinns, inspiring each other with flowery discourses by way of deception. If thy Lord had so planned, they would not have done it so leave them and their inventions alone. To such (deceit) let the hearts of those incline, who have no faith in the hereafter let them delight in it, and let them earn from it what they may. Say "Shall I seek for judge other than Allah. - when He it is Who hath sent unto you the Book, explained in detail." They know full well, to whom We have given the Book, that it hath been sent down from thy Lord in truth. Never be then of those who doubt. The word of thy Lord doth find its fulfilment in truth and in justice None can change His words for He is the one who heareth and knoweth all. Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture they do nothing but lie. Thy Lord knoweth best who strayeth from His way He knoweth best who they are that receive His guidance. Surah 6148-150 Al Anam-Yusuf Ali translation Those who give partners (to Allah. will say "If Allah had wished, we should not have given partners to Him nor would our fathers; nor should we have had any taboos." So did their ancestors argue falsely, until they tasted of Our wrath. Say "Have ye any (certain) knowledge? If so, produce it before us. Ye follow nothing but conjecture ye do nothing but lie." Say "With Allah is the argument that reaches home if it had been His will, He could indeed have guided you all." Say "Bring forward your witnesses to prove that Allah did forbid so and so." If they bring such witnesses, be not thou amongst them Nor follow thou the vain desires of such as treat our signs as falsehoods, and such as believe not in the Hereafter for they hold others as equal with their Guardian-Lord. Surah 6151-155 Al Anam-Yusuf Ali translation Say "Come, I will rehearse what Allah hath (really) prohibited you from" Join not anything as equal with Him; be good to your parents; kill not your children on a plea of want;- We provide sustenance for you and for them;- come not nigh to shameful deeds. Whether open or secret; take not life, which Allah hath made sacred, except by way of justice and law thus doth He command you, that ye may learn wisdom. And come not nigh to the orphan's property, except to improve it, until he attain the age of full strength; give measure and weight with (full) justice;- no burden do We place on any soul, but that which it can bear;- whenever ye speak, speak justly, even if a near relative is concerned; and fulfil the covenant of Allah. thus doth He command you, that ye may remember. Verily, this is My way, leading straight follow it follow not (other) paths they will scatter you about from His (great) path thus doth He command you. that ye may be righteous. Moreover, We gave Moses the Book, completing (Our favour) to those who would do right, and explaining all things in detail,- and a guide and a mercy, that they might believe in the meeting with their Lord. And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing so follow it and be righteous, that ye may receive mercy *** I have many more ayats to help, let me know*** Honor

Well what is freedom anyways? I mean since I came here some years ago I got some food for thought, which is the best you can hope for really. Everyone will interpret how they will in the end. But you get to come across some pretty unique characters out here along the way. And please pay tribute to Layth al-Shayban. The man has a lot of guts doing something like this for such a long time and much love goes out to him from this direction. The man lives in Wahhabite Islamic HQ for Pete's sake. bravo

It probably helps to know what exactly it is you want to spread, because if you're looking for consensus on this forum you ain't gonna get it. ) With a plethora of ideas you get uncertainty, with a single-set you get rigidity, so heck knows.

It acknowledges cultures with this verse, but the Quran itself is cultereless, its Message. Only the language is based on culture.