Questions/Comments on the Quran

I am a fan of Yusuf Ali, because there is a llot of getleness in his way of seeing and explaining, but he is absolutely fallible, very much so. And I say this with all my symtaphy for him, because as I say, he sort of comes through to me as somebody very kind and gentle, but the trap is that some of the usual failures in translation are covered by gentleness, which in a way is good but is another way is bad. Translations reflect the current trends of thought anywhere. And the traslations of the Qur'an carry a lot of dead weight from previous translation and default thinking from any sources. In fact, every reading of the Qur'an shoud be an effort the escape from default thinking. Making clean table of everything we think and look at the Qur'an as if we had never existed. And even then be sure that others will come that will have to do their own work and throw away what we did and was useful to us. Salaam It's for political favour. Like the replace meant of slaughter and slay with words like fight. I even saw a verse using the word God and not ALLAH It ruins the balance of context like ALLAH being almighty God and some at at would say God except God without the defining text almighty. Check a few good at at from pickthall it's more of a coloninal read like the "sinners in the eyes of an angry God" . Like it was here at the start of americ a yet never really embraced people like harrry potter not deep religious text. Also another thing most translations direct command towards males confusing slaves and women in rights and rank. These new translations..... I understand that everyone has a story directing to one event or at at and wants to show how that one 1. 20 second interval of their lives was a manifest sign but everyone has a story with a moral easy to put into ayat. Also trying to capture the times in translation like horse and stress of war being replaced with vehicles and machines. This is something they are taking away from the reading the reader loses some joy of over commentated ayats.

Have nothing to do with sectarian ist Your in the wrong otherwise

That's what I agreed with also. But what do you think about the absence of demand for witness/testimony? I must add that the idea of testimony in the case of theft is found in the story of Joseph. I do not think that the fact that the Qur?an does not mention testimony in tis case mens it is not required. It must be understood that all rules required for the ascertaining of the crime and the culprit must be followed, be it evidence of any kind be it witnesses. The requirement of witnesses in the Qur'an is mentionned only for the sake of trade and inn 24 for avoiding landering and gossiping, and in 4.15 to allow coertion to take women who make a practice of indecency off the street. In those cases witnees, four in fact, are required not as proof of a crime but as a requirement to prevent abuse of women in 4.15 and to prevent slandering, mostly of women also, in 24. It is clear in those two instances that no other kinnd of proof will be admitted. In 4.15 the community is required to ring the four witnesse in 24 nnobody is asked to look for witnesses least of all the community bust the person who accuses must make sure that he or she brings the witnesses. To proove theft it is understood that the general requirements for ascertaining any crime will have to be followedand and that a thorough investigation will be done with the best mens vailable. Salaam

let me start with Almar I was reading chapter 3 of The Qur'an and got to verse 164 and kept reading the same verse a few times because there is a word in that containing purification/purifying, so I looked up the root of Zakat which is you read Verse 3.164 many times and you look at the roots for the word which is imperfect third person male singular verb And you decide that zakah means purification ...lol now, let us take HP_T claim No brother, zakah has exactly everything to do with charities and giving away material things. Have you ever seen the word zakah without the command GIVE? It is a different verb than establish (i.e. establish the prayer and GIVE the zakah) Of course he is correct . Zakah as noun coupled with salah never came without "give"except in two verse Verse 19.31 And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive Verse 19.55 And He has made me blessed wherever I am and has enjoined upon me prayer and zakah as long as I remain alive And it make no difference in the meaning because here prophets are telling about what are enjoined upon them The question is how can anybody translate a noun ! It is something like translating the meaning of ALLAH subhanavatala and of course HP_T is correct when he told Your abstract definition for zakah which steers away from the meaning of giving and charity would rend all the ayaats about giving zakah illogical. How do you give (purifying your thoughts/ and mindsets)?? It's gibberish( no offense) And that was the reason almost all the modern day translators retain the word ZAKAH in their ayahs Now, you insist that zakat means charity and you have looked at the listed meanings of the root Zay-Kaf-Waw, let us look at 'zakat' in particular and forget about other meanings derive from the same root. Zakat (n) Purification; Purity; Poor Tax; Purifying Alms. Why is Zakat here is not primarily defined as charity? It appears that the meanings " poor tax and purifying alms were inserted to conform to the translators' pre-determined beliefs and objectives, why they did what they did, I have no clue. I agree with you about the meaning of zakah provided it is not meant as the compulsory ibada "zakah" note that he is giving the meaning of Zakah as noun but the verse in context to prove his point is 3.164 3.164 Mohsin Khan 164 Indeed Allah conferred a great favour on the believers when He sent among them a Messenger (Muhammad &#1605 from among themselves, reciting unto them His Verses (the Qur'an), and purifying them (from sins by their following him), and instructing them (in) the Book (the Qur'an) and Al-Hikmah , while before that they had been in manifest error. here zakah is which is a verb and says even mohsin khan has used the meaning of zakah what is the idea ,Almar can you give a single verse from shaeeh intl or mohsin khan in which they have not retained the word "zakah" when is comes to obligatory zakah I am sure that you would agree that Allah uses word precisely, i.e. if He says zakat then it is zakat and not sadaqah or infaq ( Root= Nun-Fa-Qaf ). And if Allah indeed meant to say zakat=charity, why does He fail to mention the amount or the percentage that we should give away? I would not dare to assume that this very important issue will be just left up to human to determine. Lets check the relation between zakah and sadaqah Verse 9.103 Take, , from their wealth a charity by which you purify them and cause them increase, and invoke upon them. Indeed, your invocations are reassurance for them. And Allah is Hearing and Knowing. same root word used here and it says charity purifies and the sadaqah here is the obligatory sadaqa that is zakah and it purifies and this informed by the one who informs everything .do you have any doubt Almar

Hi, Peace Because it totally makes no sense to me. Not only a little bit but like everything. Don't say it makes no sense to you. It is plausible therefore it makes sense but the issue is that it does not adhere to what you are mislead to believe is scientific truth. A roof? From what is it made? Till this day no one ever saw a roof or a guard with his/her telescope. Yes, a roof. The Quran uses roof so do not question me nor react with bafflement. Neither was I its maker. This question is akin you asking Allah? what is He made of? How can you ask a human about the unseen? It is nothing but doubt. RED If the quran speaks the truth and your translation is the truth then show me. Have you ever heard of someone who claimed he saw this roof? Bender this is what you sound like 1793 Or is for you a house of ornament or you ascend into the sky. And never we will believe in your ascension until you bring down to us a book we could read it." Say, "Glorified (is) my Lord! "What am I but a human, a Messenger." What do you mean with guards and protection? No no read the ayaats my words are not crucial here the Quran conveys this clearly What roof breachers are you talking about? I seriously have never heard of someone who is on a mission to reach the roof. US. Government in the 60s was bombarding the high atmosphere in a well-known mission ironically named Operation Fishbowl https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Fishbowl And that is just humans, while you may argue about jinn there is no doubt they have sought to reach/ touch the heaven. That is clearly indicated in those ayaats you have refused to comment on after I invited you to discuss them. How big do you think a star is? I mean if a star is a missile then how big is it's target? To stop me from reaching the roof you seriously do not need a star as a missile? Might as well ask me how big an angel wing is or whether the cow to slaughter is young or old, skinny or fat, yellow or blemished. Stressing about irrelevant details. And why do you continuously try to intentionally misinterpret? Look up the actual word, were there missiles in the 7th century? Don't be stupid come on. I conclude you are certainly deliberately mocking and Allah knows what you do I do not mock or at least that is not my intention, but sometimes some things are so unrealistic to me that maybe I express myself not in a correct way. Monotheism is unrealistic to the polytheists as well. Indeed the shaytan makes the wrongdoers deeds fair-seeming to them. When you read such translations do you not have a feeling that at least it sounds weird? Not one bit. I do not read a translation I look at each word and its root, concordance and context it is used. You should know that the people who translated the quran are just people like you and me. When they where translating they had not a dictionary included with the quran, they are just guessing like you and me. There is no guessing in root meaning, concordance and context meaning. More importantly what is your understanding of those ayaats that I initially posted and asked you to read ?

How is it that God/Allah submitted to questioning by Abraham, and responded with concrete evidence (Quran 2260), whereas you and I are not privileged to question Him, nor are we provided with concrete evidence of such kind? Rather, we are provided only with human-written books, given to us by humans, and with advice (sometimes demands) about belief. Assalamualaikum Sturt he might had shown you ,only that you failed to recognize them this verse is true for every Muslim Surah 41 Aya 53 We will show them Our signs in the horizons and within themselves until it becomes clear to them that it is the truth. But is it not sufficient concerning your Lord that He is, over all things, a Witness? ever you felt yourself in this verse .no doubt , they will present themselves just recognize them Regards Mushtaq

336 Sahih International But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female. That put me in stitches laughing ;D

As long as the author doesn't show up, as long as words will have multiple meanings, as long as metaphors may be present among absolute statements, I really don't think we can ever objectively study this book. Salamun Alaikum. If by ?objective study? one means to derive the ?one definitive meaning/interpretation? that is meant by the author? then I AGREE with the above statement. In fact I find it quite in line with the below famous statement from the very Qur?an 37 It is He who sent down the book on you. From it there are authoritative signs ? they are the leads of the book; and others are allegorical. Then as for those - in their hearts there is deflection ? so they follow whatever is allegorical of it ? seeking provocation and seeking its interpretation; But none knows its interpretation except God - and those deeply-rooted in knowledge ? they say, ?We put faith in it, everything is from near our Master? - but none rethinks except the men of discretion. (My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.) Please note the statement ?none knows its interpretation except God?? this validates SOA?s remark that ?As long as the author doesn't show up? we can never get the objective meaning of the book?. THEN how and why should one study a book which itself claims that no one knows its ?(definitive) interpretation? except God? This is where we need to understand why the verses of Qur?an are called signs (ayats). The understanding to be derived of a sign always varies depending on the perspective of the reader. So, those who put faith in Qur?an as the book of God would accept this as a blessing and treat the book as a ?living book? which is capable of changing how it would guide the reader. Let me clarify with one example. Qur?an frequently mentions ?He sent water from the heaven?? as a sign that God is in charge. From the very beginning of Qur?an study, this has been understood to be a reference to ?rain??and quite logically so. However, as a reader in the 21st Century I am privileged to know that the element "water" is not native to earth ? because the known process of planet formation does not support the generation of liquid water on this planet. So, scientists generally agree that water came to earth from extra-terrestrial sources, perhaps through comets or asteroids. The fact that this essential element for life was ?sent? to earth to make it habitable - adds to the odds that such events could have occurred without any master plan. Now with this privileged information when I read the following verse 222 Who assigned for you the earth as a bedding and the sky as a canopy and sent down from the sky ? water; then brought forth with these provision from the fruits for you; so don?t assign equals to God while you know. (My personal translation, cross checking is recommended.) ? I cannot but wonder about the extra-terrestrial origin of water on this planet. - Not because Qur'an say's so, but because this verse is a sign that prompts me to such wondering. When I read this verse I cannot but wonder about the facts that the crust of this loving blue planet needed to cool down at the correct temperature and then spread over the boiling core like a comfortable bedding.. and also greenhouse gasses needed to form a protective canopy to shed the planet from sun?s radiation and also water had to arrive from the heavens and only after these vital conditions are met life in the form of plans and animals could have sprung out here. Do I claim this as a ?Scientific miracle? of Qur?an? No, I am not trying to claim that. What I am trying to say.. whoever would assume the Qur?an to be a humanly authored book might logically seek ?(definitive) interpretation? of the book and hence take the above verse as na?ve chatter of a 6th century individual. But whoever is open to the idea that this book is inspired by God and meant to guide us..would only stand to take guidance from this book utilizing the latest available knowledge and understanding. In this forum this approach has been called ?interpretation acrobatics? before. I do not mind. I have faith that this book is meant to be useful as a guide to the readers only when the reader takes his best intention and best understanding to it. And this is how, I believe, Qur?an is meant to be studied. Is this approach subjective? Yes. Does this approach mean that different people could take different meaning from the same sign (ayah) and can both be right in their own way as long as their intention is right? Yes it does. We put faith in it, everything is from near our Master ... He guides to the straight way whomever He wills. Regards, Arman

Thanks both for your input

Hello fye, You are unto the right trail. The word Islam means sanity/wholesomeness. The original Abrahamic faith wishes for its adherents to be rid of superstition triggered by Satan (the instinct) and to realize the world was put against them and the way out was to separate yourself from it. The real meaning of "aslama l'Rabb" is to show wholesomeness such as Rabb (aslama does not mean submit and the root does not have anything to do with submission at all) and that was what our friend Abraham figured out. The whole test is to refrain from being diseased by the world's temptations and pass along separated from attachment to it. And the first step is to know you do not find "God" as an object but something universally within you. This is why the original spiritual teachers caused the phenomenon to be called 'the Who Is ' (Allah) i.e. whether you show manifestation of Rabb with you or not. Allah was never the word for God separately except in the minds of ignorant clerics and scholars. Abraham was an excellent teacher, but it does not help when people distorted his teachings. Wellness to you Amenuel

Please check yusuf Ali's translation of 226 , there are no mosquitoes there

peace NFM, In the link you provided http//corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=16&verse=89#(16891) If you click on the word you are interested in, it brings up http//corpus.quran.com/wordmorphology.jsp?location=(16891 It tells you the root at the top Ba-Ya-Nun You can also use corpus as a concordance to see the word's occurrence/usage in Quran http//corpus.quran.com/qurandictionary.jsp?q=byn#(16891 From http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm = Ba-Ya-Nun = Becoming separated, severed, disunited, cut off or distinct Apparent, manifest, plain, clear, known, distinguished from another Disunion and union Coming forth Separation or division between two things (e.g. land) An evidence, an indication, demonstration, proof, argument that is clear, manifest (intellectual or perceptive/perceived by sense), testimony of a witness bayyinah n.f. 287, 292, 299, 2159, 2185, 2209, 2211, 2213, 2253, 2253, 386, 397, 3105, 3183, 3184, 4153, 532, 5110, 657, 6157, 773, 785, 7101, 7105, 842, 842, 970, 1013, 1015, 1074, 1117, 1128, 1153, 1163, 1188, 149, 1644, 17101, 1815, 1973, 2072, 20133, 2216, 2272, 241, 2836, 2935, 2939, 2949, 309, 3047, 3443, 3525, 3540, 4022, 4028, 4034, 4050, 4066, 4083, 4363, 4517, 4525, 467, 4714, 579, 5725, 585, 616, 646, 981, 984 tibyan n.m. 1689 bayyana vb. (2) perf. act. 2118, 2159, 2160, 3118, 5717 impf. act. 268, 269, 270, 2187, 2219, 2221, 2230, 2242, 2266, 3103, 3187, 426, 4176, 515, 519, 575, 589, 6105, 9115, 144, 1639, 1644, 1664, 1692, 225, 2418, 2458, 2459, 2461, 4363 pcple. act. 419, 2434, 2446, 3330, 651, 6511 abana vb. (4) impf. act. 4352 n.vb. 3138, 554, 7519 pcple. act. 2168, 2208, 3164, 420, 450, 491, 4101, 4112, 4119, 4144, 4153, 4174, 515, 592, 5110, 67, 616, 659, 674, 6142, 722, 760, 7107, 7184, 102, 1061, 1076, 116, 117, 1125, 1196, 121, 125, 128, 1230, 1410, 151, 1518, 1579, 1589, 164, 1635, 1682, 16103, 1753, 1938, 2154, 2211, 2249, 2345, 2412, 2425, 2454, 262, 2630, 2632, 2697, 26115, 26195, 271, 2713, 2716, 2721, 2775, 2779, 282, 2815, 2818, 2885, 2918, 2950, 3111, 3336, 3358, 343, 3424, 3443, 3612, 3617, 3624, 3647, 3660, 3669, 3677, 3715, 37106, 37113, 37156, 3870, 3915, 3922, 4023, 432, 4315, 4318, 4329, 4340, 4362, 442, 4410, 4413, 4419, 4433, 4530, 467, 469, 4632, 481, 5138, 5150, 5151, 5238, 616, 622, 6412, 6726, 6729, 712, 8123 tabayyana vb. (5) perf. act. 2109, 2256, 2259, 4115, 86, 9113, 9114, 1445, 2938, 3414, 4725, 4732 impf. act. 2187, 943, 4153 impv. 494, 494, 496 istabana vb. (10) impf. act. 655 pcple. act. 37117 LL, V1, p 322, 323, 324, 325, 326 ## http//ejtaal.net/aa/#q=byn i think it is very easy to find this in quranx.com is there any problem in this site http//quranx.com/Analysis/Root/ba-ya-nun

Well yes, it has to be instantaneous, because what those four testimonies seemto do is instead of the four witnesses, and those four witnesses obviously have to be at the same time. And the same goes for the four testimonies of th woman which will contradict the accusation of the husband. Salaam

The very formal linguistic use of the original Arabic The linguistic choice of words. The extremely advanced level of pedagogy and psychology. The topics which the scripture brings to the light. The origin and dynamics of the morphology. The writing style is the most reassuring argument that it is a language and scripture of "divine" origin. And not to mention that its author left a "finger print" and clue to the language's morphological structure through individual letters introducing 14 chapters. Be safe Amenuel

peace, Transcription (English) 482 Liyaghfira laka Allahu mataqaddama min thanbika wama taakhkhara wayutimmaniAAmatahu AAalayka wayahdiyaka siratan mustaqeeman Edip-Layth (Quran A Reformist Translation) 482 So that God may forgive your present sins, as well as those past, and so that He may complete His blessings upon you, and guide you on a straight path.

Fye's post made little sense, although at least he wasn't off-topic as the argument in thread also doesn't make sense.

Example A Chinese / Asian man working in a gold mine without food and salary. B African man working in cotton plantation WITH food and without salary. There were a set of of African man who were living in better condition than the chinese / asian man. That's a fact. That's why i used the word "many".. referring to a set of individuals.. And NOT ALL Many of the African men went to America with promise of 'better life' by the 'slave trader'. The same story as the Asian men. Little did they know that eventually they become slave. But anyway that's not the main point.. You deleted the word "many"... MANY Asian workers were working in worse conditions.. Although they didn't refer that as slavery while it is a SLAVERY. -- Skipping your ranting about race as it's not the main point -- SUPREMACISM Rooted from ARROGANCE and PRIDE. IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL. That's the main point.. And NO SPECIFIC RACE / SKIN COLOR / ETHNICITY / RELIGION is immune from it. Whenever there's a sign of PRIDE and ARROGANCE... EVIL can be found nearby.. I cite the Rwanda's massacre as an example... How a set of human feel that they're superior than others.. in disregards of the 'skin color'. We can see there isn't much of a difference between JAPANESE and CHINESE in skin color.. yet 500,000 people dead by the Japanese during Nanjing massacre. The Chinese to them were inferior race and it's justified to kill them for a 'better world'. We can see there isn't much of a difference between Turkish and Armenian, Arabs and Jews, Germans and Poland, Vikings and Saxon, Serbians and Bosnian, Sapiens and Neanderthal, Christians and Muslim, Jews and Christians, Orthodox and Catholics, Sunnis and Shiites and the list goes on and on.. Once a group of human feel that their group identity are superior compared to other.. Evil has took control of their sanity.. Salam / Peace Your example A and B are not true at all. Asian migrants migrated voluntarily and received low wages. How the heck can someone work and mine without having food? Your statements are illogical Further more blacks did not choose to migrate they were shackled and packed like sardines in ships and thrown over board. The difference between the two is like the east and west. You are just plain IGNORANT my friend. After all look at you still comparing and inventing lies attempting to portray th African enslavement as work and Asian migrant gold mine exploitation as slavery. You are trying to replace history? No one except you has ever fabricated such ignorant garbage. I feel ashamed to you even speak with such a person. Then you try to hint at people having pride and arrogance twice... Check your on heart. Because all this brother tried to do is illustrate straight historical facts. Because you are clueless. You have no idea what you are talking about..... This correspondence has highlighted either your ignorance or bigotry There is no face saving just much studying or self-reevaluating Excuse me

none will understand it but men of understanding. they don't understand that they don't understand, they only remember points of arguement so other's think they understand. the quran says you can not believe except by the will of ALLAH, this people are need to lead others astray and create wars to bring the wrath of ALLAH on towns and cities whose populations like all other populations except the people of jonah did not believe. they did understand the importance of ritual and faith, they did understand the purpose of life it's to worship ALLAH. the more i read the quran the more i understand i have to "let" people die, they were always pissing off god and killing themselves with poisons anyway, will i simply go chasing after them as they call me here and there? your duty is but to warn. if you warn them then hey your free of responsibility, tell them that understand these words and how they apply to your daily life is more important then tell people you completely understand it, i told you just now so i'm free of responsibility for "ye" do. if it still bothers you then read the verse about the messenger how it grieves him that they go astray... practice self restrain and slay those kafirs by neglect and giving them rope. did you not read surah 9? did you not catch them out? you caught them in the wrong, right? also stop calling them your brothers in faith they don't sound like they believe what you believe.

Salam Bender, I understand your doubts about grammar books and grammar of alquran, as I also see some differences between the two. For the bolded part above in your post, if we consider what you say as true, then we end up with a logical problem with the next verb (taghrobo and tatlo3o) in both verses Until when he reaches the sun-set he found it (the sun-set) setting in... Until when he reaches the sun-rise he found it (the sun-rise) rising ... It sound a bit like " I found the sun-rise rising in the sky"; is the sun rising in the sky? or is the sun-rise rising in the sky? Peace, Mohamed Salaam Mohamed, This has puzzled me also when I was researching this the first time. But like always the quran is very exact. I wil try to explain my view. A couple of years ago I was living on the 10th floor, I had a nice view of the sunset. I could see from my balcony every day that the sun was setting in The Hague (I could see The Hague from my balcony). This is of course a false statement. The sun does not set in The Hague. Thee AlQarnayni discovered/found out that the movement of the sun was moving into the direction of something. Not the sun herself was moving to a place, but her movement. If the sun was an arrow which could land somewhere on earth then it is correct to say that the sun herself is moving to that place, but the sun is not such an arrow. But her movement can be seen as an arrow which land somewhere. I am sorry for my very bad English, I hope you understand what I was trying to say. --- btw I want to highlight 2 things that probably some people also misunderstand. 1886 RED I think a lot read this as "reached" as "a point in space". This is per my understanding not true. Per my understanding it's "a point in time". A nice example to understand the word is in 1222 And when he BALAGHA his independence, We gave him judgement and knowledge. It is thus that We reward the good doers. BLUE A lot translate this as a literal "FINDING", like I found my wallet under my seat. In the quran it is per my understanding used like "DISCOVERING", maybe not the best word choice but I have nothing better. Here the FM translation with some modifications how I understand it. 1886 Until he reached the point in time of the setting (a movement) of the sun; he discovered that the setting (a movement) of the sun was setting (a movement) in..." Salaam, Bender ps. I have still no idea what maghrib, matli3 and mashrik mean.

Misjudgment by Male Whale saves Yunus alahissalam. Know the fact; Yunus was performing assignment as one of the sent Messengers; When on assessing complete unresponsiveness he abandoned-absconded-ran; after walking away from his nation in the state-grip of heightened feeling of anger-heavy heartedness, towards the already embarked-Laden Ship, ready to sail. . Thereby, because of heightened feeling of anger and running he became weak-dehydrated-haggard. Resultantly, he was in the state of slipped ones/loosing hold of feet falling into the sea. Thereat, for reason of having slipped and fallen in Sea, certain male Whale made effort and swallowed him whole, while he was in sluggish state awaiting and expecting help for rescue. Contd Misjudgment by Male Whale saves Yunus alahissalam