Economics Forum

Salam all, I agree with ths that Mohammed Jean Veneuse is worth checking out. Very coincidental that I saw this tonight because I was thinking of posting his link here and asking what people thought. No the Quran does not posit a specific form of government, however it does not specifically discourage governmental models of ant particular type either. Having said that, I just want to give an opinion What is usually referred to as "Anarcho capitalism" or market Anarchism does not appeal to me as an ideological platform for a Muslim conception of contemporary social organization. Like any other "form" of capitalism, radical marketocracy is a negative concept usually embraced by those who are opposed to the state at every level. Libertarianism seems to me to be inherently contrary to the spirit of the Noble Qur'an in that it negates the commonality of collective social responsibilities in favor of the cult of individual freedom which has overwhelmed contemporary "culture" in the West. Ironically, we here in the United States use the term "libertarian" to describe this right wing orientation among capitalist-individualist-anarchists, while in Europe and elsewhere the term "Libertarian Socialism" roughly implies a form of anarchism whose central philosophical tenets would seem to revolve around more collectivistic models, greater emphasis on human solidarity, and general opposition to authoritarianism primarily as the term would apply to various forms of economic (readclass) exploitation, racial and sexual chauvinism, and classical economic liberalism as embodied in our contemporary consumer-capitalist model. I would think that new social models inspired by these types of values would be more in accordance with the overall spirit of the message of the Qur'an than a dog eat dog war of all against all, in which Smith's "invisible hand" is free to strangle this planet in a deregulated orgy of bloodthirsty, profit-driven competition. We already have an international anarchist-capitalist system, dominated by the most profitable institutions over the interests of basic people, and the health of our environment. Capital couldn't be too much more "free" to do what it wants to internationally. and I would not even know where to start a list in which all of the ways in which that is contrary to Islam. Business and profit are fine in Islam, but an anarcho-capitalist system could hardly allow for many other aspects of Islam which are of equal importance, such as the collective responsibility of Muslims to the neediest among them (as embodied in the Qur'anic concept of zakat. Just my ramblings here, thank you for a thought-provoking question, and peace to you. La Illaha Illalahu.

I recommend the Keiser Report www.maxkeiser.com

Wakas, Thanks for that info. I'm more clued up on the financial institutions and the mechanics of fiat currency now. I think your suggestions started my learning process. I wish I had known what I learned in 2010 a lot earlier. But i had the shroud of everything is normal and the way it always has been and always will be over my head. I was even resistant to the idea as a possible exaggeration of things. I know better now. Thanks. I wish I had listened to you and others a long tiime ago and not balked at those ideas in my head as most likely fringe, crazy talk. Godbless, Anwar

The original poster of this WAS INDEED way ahead of the curve. I never frequented the economics section back in 2006 but i wish I had. As Shuraa, hats off to you. Godbless, Anwar

Peace, Good to see other Quranists are aware of this issue, which is very important. Godbless, Anwar

http//www.independent.co.uk/news/world/asia/why-the-dream-of-microfinance-is-turning-sour-2280814.html New masters microfinanciers Simpls

Of course... it's the FED who had the sole authority to print out those (actually worthless) green papers... But the FED cannot do it unless China grant their 'blessings'... in which they gave after Obama's visit (readbegging) to Beijing last year. Objective is clear Curb down the consumptive level of the americans. Make US services and products more competitive abroad and as thus create jobs in US, given they have 11% unemployment rate last year.

Salaam liquiddharma, we are not talking about the common usage of a word but the legal usage of a word, the legal fraud was established around 1185 by the Knights Templar of the Roman Catholic Church, in the 12th Century, Nicholas Sheakspeare the true "Father of English" also known as Pope Adrian IV-- the first and only English Pope of the Catholic Church was instrumental with King Henry II in the formation of a uniquely "English" brand of hybrid Anglais?-Latin to form the legal framework of English. In the 13th Century, individuals such as Pope Innocent IV, Francis of Assisi and Thomas Acquinas were key in the establishment of the backbone of the modern legal system from Venetian maritime law through the creation of even more corrupted Latin words and even hybrid English back to Latin. You can use the term Homo, you are correct that is the true term for a human being, but you cannot use human being, person, citizen, man, etc, and if you do use the term homo you must define it in contract, the best I've come up with so far is, - unfettered Homo 'PRO PER' (UNREPRESENTED) 'PRO SE' The people is an abstract legal fiction, you are being fooled into slavery, as you are born into it, it can be hard to see, anyway the fictions of legislation hide your true rectus (rights) you can not use the term rights in a contract either, you have to find an uncorrupted term like rectus. "When a waivable Rectus or claim is involved, the failure to make a reservation thereof, causes a loss of the Rectus, and bars its assertion at a later date." (UCC 1-207.9) This is the founding concept of the slavery of the modern world. This is why the Qur'an directs us to establish a contract and surety system, we have to in the present prison planet make our rectus clear by having a contract of community, which I've been spending a lot of time writing over the last few weeks. You are in truth (another word you cannot use in contract) doing others a disservice by supporting the lie of democracy.

peace all, For study http//www.islam-and-muslims.com/Islamic-Economics.pdf Thanks for this. Just yesterday was looking at the economy of the late Ottoman Empire. In keeping with all western societies I am aware of (US/UK/Ottoman Empire), they started to use fiat currency when the government got big-headed and wanted to finance big projects. They did so by turning to the western powers, who of course wanted to end the Ottoman Empire, got themselves into debt (when prior they had no significant debt) and fell into the trap. They, bizarrely, had no real banks it seems either. They seem to have been stuck in a feudal middle age economy, whilst Europe and America had moved towards economic systems we see today. Roshan

For those who follow AQ, 2275-276

This is good news, thx 4 sharing ) The way i see it, the hardworking women who were oppressed in the past & present are bound to be the ones occupying the higher positions in the future. Along with the (not so few, i hope?) good men of course. These young factory ladies, do they get chance of some kind of organized education at work? Btw, i checked there's currently no wikipedia entries on this Kashf foundation and its founder Roshaneh Zafar. Maybe you can start it? and, um.. for those interested http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=0fzWoI_27J8 http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UaLMyf6gUc http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=w3y3KoWA52I

Salam, Salaam, trading is a strange term for the exchange of one debt certificate gambled against the value of another debt certificate, fiat currencies are valueless paper certificates that the state impose value upon, through the manipulations and intimidations of criminal banking cartels, who dominate government, commerce and media, you think no crime is being committed here? Then I despair, how a mind can consider that situation to be acceptable, at any level. For once we agree!

It is very dangerous to connect modern politics with religion because it opens a platform for unfathomable crowd sway, based on demographic idiosyncrasies and so forth... and, often, a smokescreen for outright deception. Mostly, these different political formats just define different ways to scrape together and hoard the pot into one pocket or another, regardless of how "homespun" a shine be squeaked upon the surface of any particular pledge put forth to the masses. Most people don't even have the time to consider the depth of logic (or lack thereof) behind any political campaign whatsoever. Gear the pot towards church, temple or what have you and we can easily wind up with just another bloody travesty in place of what could have been a masterpiece. Or what once was. Look at the past century... We need to somehow foolproof our temples from the destruction imposed by the present systems.

I like this! D

The West are waiting for Jesus to return like a bird of prey, the Muhammadans too think he will descend in Damascus, the Jews are waiting for the trumpet to be blown on Mount Sion. It is time to take the initiative, because all these stories are myths, because Jesus, son of Mary's, life was terminated and he was saved from the plot of the disbelievers, and the one they slew was the fleshly part, that is the meaning of 'but it was made to appear to them, that they did'. So while they wait for the skies to open, we are here, trying to distinguish truth from falsehood. We know things by their opposites, and somehow we realise capitalism is destructive, and they ask if there is anything we can replace it with, total eradication of money right down to its root, because it is after the root of all evil, and evil only dies when the root of evil is removed, money. They will say we will die, then you can reply do you live on money or food? Below some thought. Money the power of darkness, money the root of all evil, money corrupts people. Everyone seems to be working for/with money, when it doesn't solve anything, there is one law for the rich, another for the poor, all this continual destruction, pollution, wars and famines, when will the earth be free, every danger leads to teh quest of money to prevent it occurring, there are countless charities, but they are incompetent, or impotent, as to how to deliver, because they work with money. Replace money with kindness, and all of a sudden, there is no more greed, there is no more poverty and there is no violence, light not darkness, good not evil and truth not falsehood, but Masons do not want to tell the opposite of capitalism, they talk of a free world, and a free market, but they hold on to the invention of money, money is a test, money is a curse and money is a drug. Get rid of it. www.12-3.co.uk Instead of plundering we are reaping, instead wanting more we are content with our lot, instead of fighting evil we remove the root of it. Instead of plundering through the earth, instead of reaching the sky with scrapers, instead of trying to prevent, instead of policing due to greed, instead of hating due to war, instead selling our bodies for money, instead of children taught reward in terms of capital, instead of bringing evil to the world forsaking the truth for falsehood let there be kindness instead of money. We are intended to reap, not capitalise, we are intended to be part of the cycle, not the top of the chain, we are intended to be free to worship God, not slaves to money then we die. Without us the world would not be fulfilled, but with us we are reapers or plunderers. Capitalist are devil worshippers, that is why submission is not in it for the money, they reap, and hold on to the recompense of God, because God never fails to recompense those who spend in His cause. Ever heard the statement capitalist devil worshippers. Hidden under dust of corruption and ignorance, underlying it you will find they are Satanist, because they choose to attempt to rule, own and control the world. There come a time, when a child will say 'this is mine', and his mother will say, ' no child, it belongs to God, everything in the heavens and the earth belong to God, abide by kindness to others and submission and you will reap.' In the Pslams it reads something like, those close to God, lack nothing. Alhamdulilah, strive in the cause of God, to do that which pleases Him. insha Allah, peace if like Plato and Aristotle claim we are all equal because we are made of the same handiman. Why was Muhammad born in the Quraysh, why was Jesus the descendent of Aaron, why was Moses son of one of the tribes of Israel. Pride is one thing, honor is another, who are the true Aryans, the white supremacist of Europe and beyond, or the humble Rah Putt of India? We will see. Who owns, the capitalist banks, the communist state or the Monarch of England. Can banks create wealth, can state be more important than family, is there capitilisation, corruption and exploitation in order to establish a Masonic new world order of the Queen the great pretender. God controls everything, there is none worthy of worship except God, praise be to God Lord of the universe

Peace I'm not sure about the economics but charities are to go to those in debt . Joe

Salaam, if you would care to consider my view of the Islamic model based upon the Qur'anic concepts, I have written an essay called 'Qur'anic Caliphate' on my website http//servantofthelight.com/content/view/9/30/

this is bad news..I wish I could read th article. That is sad, unfortunately this can happen anywhere in one way or another.

I posted this reply on another section of this site For anyone interested to follow that discussion http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597986.45

I strongly recommend people to watch "Money as Debt" and "The Money Masters" and "Zeitgeist Addendum" movies, all available online, for education on the money system. If you dont know about it, it will blow your mind, in fact, many will still not believe it even after watching it. If you say to someone, anyone, "banks create money out of nothing" they are unlikely to believe you, even though its true and this system underpins almost every country in the world.