Economics Forum

Hi, If money is used, either as investment or other types of loans etc., it is tied to interest. Let?s say we borrow $100 at 5% interest per year from a bank. When the loan is to be returned to the bank after one year, we have to return $105. I.e. we have to find additional $5 from somewhere. Unlike potatoes, money can not be made to multiply; we have to ?put them together? every step of the way. So, in order to find an additional $5, these five dollars have to exist, or be fabricated by ourselves if they don?t exist. The more money we are utilizing, the more extra money is needed in order to cover the interest, i.e. the more money there is in circulation the more money is needed to be made available. Inflation is mainly driven by the amount of money that governments make available. When more money is put into circulation, consumers bid up prices of goods and services. This price increase causes loss of purchasing power, and thus inflation. Therefore inflation is closely tied to interest and so are stocks and bonds, as they again are tied to inflation. This is an evil circle because the higher the inflation, the more money is needed, and the more money there is in circulation, the higher the inflation. Some types of money are agreed upon, by many separate countries, as a kind of standard currencies, like the USD, Euro etc. These currencies are used as measures for other currencies, and even though, for instance the USD has been produced in an ever increasing flood, its value is kept up, to a certain extent, as much of the USD is not circulated within the country itself. If countries around the world cease to regard USD as a central currency and decide to rid themselves of it, the US economy will experience a major inflation, as the total number of USD in circulation in the world is extremely much higher than the real values in the country, backing the USD. Differences in the value that various types of goods has for us, will fluctuate, depending on offer and demand, however it will not influence the inflation rate in the same way as money does, as goods and services are real values in their own right. They are ?end?-products, whereas money are only means to make trade easier for us, and without own value, unless we make money out of something that has value in itself. Large economies built on our present, imaginary, monetary system, are terrified of a situation where ?real? money takes over, as there will be less need for ?paper money?, therefore the monetary authorities around the world can no longer keep producing money at will. But as long as our economic system can keep on implementing interest on money they are relatively safe, as interest requires more money to be made, and if the money are real values, gold or whatever, the money can not just be fabricated out of ?nothing?, Thereby making ?real? money virtually impossible to implement on a larger scale. Interest is really the key to the vast success of the few controlling the economies, and it will not be given up lightly. I believe that interest mentioned in the qur?an, is the imaginary value that results in the necessity to fabricate more money which decreases the buying power of the money in circulation. I.e. all interest on money is bad and should be avoided. Instead of adding value to a community, interest consumes values. Regds Ali Omar

Salam Myr, Thanks for your feedback. I don?t think insurance system contradicts to the Quranic verses. We all knew that insurance is a preventative measure aimed at tackling any expected or unexpected crisis. We could see in the Quran that Prophet Yousef advised a king to apply a kind of preventative measure in order to tackle an expected famine in the country which was to happen in a future. 1247 He said you will plant regularly for seven years, and whatever you harvest you must leave it in its pods, except for the little that you will eat. 1248 Then will come seven after that which are severe in drought and which will consume all that you plant except for what you have stored. I think it is allowed but I?m not sure how far I?m correct. Please comment. Peace! Salam Nasrudeenh, all, Dear brothers, Is it appropriate to assume that insurance policies are permitted in Islam since there isn?t any explicit forbiddance in the Quran? Peace! From my understanding of the Quran, the insurance and in particular the life insurance is not Quranic. Yes I agree there is no explicit forbiddnace of it in Quran but there was no insurance industry at the time of the Quran revelation either-). Understanding how insurance industry works will make you realize quickly why it does not go hand in hand with the wisdom in Quran-). In Quran, there is no speculation on the deceased assets or their forms!! My point is when something is not explicitely outlined in Quran we will have to first understand how the system works, how insurance premiums are calculated and what that means for the individuals as well as the community, then we go back to Quran and see if it does not contradict the message or the wisdom in it. And God the All-Mighty knows best. Peace. Myr.

lol it's good dream that's first replay in this forum

) Hi there. Thanks for your welcome, It is inevitable that people will try to rip it off. Questions 8 and 10 of www.altruists.org/AE4 address this point briefly, but understanding the system design properly is needed to understand this in more detail. Protection against the selfish has been central to the design of the system since its conception. Althoug implicit in most of the presentations, and made explicit in one or two, I may write a presentation explicitly on resisiting attack - since it is a primary concern of people when they hear of the 'Gift Economy'. Basically, the decentralised structure should mean that any abuse is local and small scale, and is most problematic to the immediate friends of the cheat(s) - providing them with a motivation to reassess their trust accordingly, thus healing the network in an organic way. Unlike an ordinary system the fact that the network is invitation only means that there are limited options for abusing it -- for exactly the same reason that ripping off your friends more than once is not an option. Note how different this is from centralised money, where the combination of anonymity (see www.altruists.org/40 and centralised power (see www.altruists.org/416) means that a very few people (central bankers) have an enormous unaccountable power. As Shamsul noted, work is ongoing on this to implement the idea in software. Any more specific questions are very welcome. Regards, Robin Upton www.RobinUpton.com

Dear shamsul-arefin, Yes, this is our immediate goal, a community built on common ideas. And this is my biggest headache. How to build a community? People with, at least, similar ideas concerning how a community should function are spread all over the world. There are only two ways to attack the problem, one is to assemble in a physical geographical place, and the other is to establish a world-wide community with local units within existing states. Both these possibilities have their positive and their negative sides. The first alternative would mean a concentration on implementing laws and regulations in one local area within the framework of that one local area. The other would be to establish local communities with laws and regulations within the framework of many different local areas. The first alternative would probably give faster results as it would have a larger base of people, limited to one physical area and therefore with one framework of community laws to worry about. The second alternative would consist of smaller groups, therefore maybe, less effective, and would be under many different frameworks of law. However, on a longer term the first alternative would be limited by number of inhabitants in the limited physical area, and therefore maybe less effective in dealings with other areas than the second alternative which could engulf numerous different products, ideas etc. established under different environments and cultures. Due to this, and a number of other reasons, I see the second alternative as the most effective on a longer term. My main problem is that I can not quite see how to plan and begin implementing such a system. Do we have any blueprint, or some realistic plan, as to what rules and regulations could be implemented within a world-wide group consisting of many local groups under different sets of community laws etc? Or is it possible to work out a set of common grounds to form laws that does not breach local laws of any country? I believe that the economic, administrative and other parts of such a spread-out community of like-minded individuals have to be built up simultaneously. We can not have a community totally without rules, or without people, or without real values. All these parts must be in. The smallest community may be one person following certain rules and having certain real values. (Real values may also result from the ability to create) The very beginning must be one or more individuals brainstorming to find common rules to live by and to find out how to create common values, and thereby bringing the community into being. Regards Ali Omar

Hi, I believe that Gods system has a very simple rule of economics ?Your income is what you put in as work to create real values? ?Your expenses are what you need to uphold life? Only values that exist may be used, i.e. values must be created before we can use them. In one way or another, your existence will consume values from the world around you. If you are able to contribute, you have a responsibility to do so; if you are unable to contribute, the human community has the responsibility to uphold your life. Your ability to contribute may vary, and some can contribute more than others, but life is sacred and therefore the responsibility for the whole human community, and should be upheld, if in any way possible. Interests do not create real values and therefore can not be consumed. Rent of a house is OK if, what the landlord contributes, are real values. I.e. values are created and are available. This means that the rent of the house must reflect the work put in by the landlord. He does work in order to keep the house in order. He keeps track of the rents and other things concerning the tenants etc. etc. You have to pay the landlord for these costs of your occupancy, including the deterioration of the house due to wear and tear. As a landlord you can not, however, charge the tenants any rent for the fact that you or your forefathers have worked so hard that you/they were able to build the house in the first place. I.e. the value of the house is the value of the work put in, to be able to build it. shock The house is, however, slowly ?consumed? roll , maybe over one hundred years, or whatever. Anyway, at the end of the period, when it is considered that the house is ?consumed?, the value of the work behind it should not be lost; it should just have been transferred into another value of similar magnitude. This similar value can slowly be transferred from the house to the landlord and taken out from those who have benefited from the existence of the house, i.e. be a part of the rent charged, so that at the end of the period the original value still remains. In the meantime, the landlord or the heir, could have been working hard besides taking care of the house, and been able to build another one, or maybe a few, thereby adding to his/her wealth. As far as I understand God allow us to gather wealth, but only through our own contribution, i.e. building of real values. I am afraid that this is not the way it works today. In most instances, someone able to build a house and rent it out, is relaxing in their contribution to the community, and let the tenants work for their own reduced activity. This means they are living from other peoples work. This will then be the same as charging interest, i.e. an interest is a value that does not exist, so somebody must work to create it. Meaning it is a pure cost to the society. The part of a rent, that is only to cover the landlords reduced contribution, is a value that does not exist and therefore must be created by others. Meaning it is a pure cost to the society. Simple basics leading to complicated calculations. mrgreen Regds Ali Omar

unlike the policy of interventionism and allocation of resources by force which make gross injustice and a great deal of destimulation and destruction of goods and prosperity by trying to help in the wrong way and by the threat of force? Reading this i was often unable to help myself but thinking of the principles of the wise conduct set in the great reading, as well as of some great morals that i have learnt in my lifetime and have been proven true in the practice..... Best wishes Zlatan Salaam, They try to help themselves and their cronies more to the point. As in Pharaoh and his priests. I have been reading similar texts, and i am in agreement.

Salaam, I prefer a system of welfare that is not concentrated in the hands of a few such as the government where we have limited knowledge on where the money goes. Perhaps, it goes to good things as NHS but perhaps it goes to many terrible things too. This is not particular to UK but a worldwide phenonemon. Also if Jaxals pound in his pocket was worth what it was 10-20 yrs ago, and he was not so severly taxed maybe he could pay for the operation himself or those around him could help. After all who made his money worth less but the government? I just don't believe how the humanity of government is a substitute to the humanity of populace. Maybe, its too late for this as we have gotten use to the welfare state. With taxation I think we're merely enslaving ourselves to a few as in the example of Pharaoh and his esoteric society of priests. People in government are human after all and their incentives are to stay there, hence why cede more power to a power that corrupts? In my opinion...

peace, The idea seems so simple, yet its very effective. Hopefully, it will snowball. I have not researched the finance structure in 'the reading' but from my knowledge thus far, I did see some similarities. Wakas

Hello Myr?.how are you doing?..nice to see that you are concerned with what is just and what is not?may your creator show you the light and led you to what is most rational and just? To resolve or at least help resolve your problems or dilemmas, the 2 things are necessary -1 knowledge of the problematic/area + 2. knowledge of the revelation(includes knowlegde of its language) ....since i lack the complete knowledge of both thematics my judgements would be necessarily suspect to great incorrectness and adjustements -to begin with something, imo its not legitimate to justify the tax system based on the God`s allowance of collecting religious tributes and spending part of them at the collectors .... -in understanding and applying The God given ordinances the context is very important... in this particular case its important to differentiate between -voluntary and involuntary comunities....and believeing and secular communities....because the causes and effects might significantly differ in these cases.....or in cases which are mixture of these two...and thus solution and prescription would probably differ?. -its important to realise that religious tributes are voluntary and based on an absolute belief in the issuing authority(The God) and are spent on the specific purposes which are absolutely aproved and supported by the tribute payer... ....while the the taxes are not and are extracted under the threat of the violence or force, without the faith in the issuing authority and spend on the purposes chosen by the goverment which maybe do not suite the tax payer or may be contrary to his principles...in that case the tax is a double or a triple harm, the tax payer barred of his money(1st) under a violent threat(and thus humiliated-2nd) and finaly his money is spent to purposes which he does not like or approve(3rd injury).... and all this is done under the pretext of the goverments service to the people?! Let alone fact that the tax payer often hasnt voted for that particular goverment or hasnt voted at all, or has voted only because he was forced to choose between the lesser of the two evils....the whole system of representatives might be false and a fallacy?see for example Lysander Spooner "A Letter to Thomas F. Bayard- Challenging His Right - And that of All the Other So-Called Senators and Representative in Congress - To Exercise Any Legislative Power Whatever Over the People of the United States (1882)" http//www.lysanderspooner.org/LetterToBayard.htm Of the crutial importance on this subject is his shocking work "No Treason.( No. VI) The Constitution of No Authority" http//www.lysanderspooner.org/notreason.htm#no6 True there may be communities where the payment of taxes wil be voluntarily( though i dont think it would be called taxes then)...thus, if someone has pledged to paying the tax or contracted himself to do so, or has becomed the member of the community by a contract(and not by a force) then the tax would be pretty fine with me...however what is problematic is extracting tax payments by physical threats or spending it on the purposes other that those originaly intended or contrary to the wishes of the taxpayer... a slight disgression... you used the term zakat for the tributes while i would like to leave the original sadakaat(whatever its translation be) imo betterment or purification or purity is meaning of the word zakat that is more correct and thus "enabling/helping/causing/stimulating(to perform)/bringing forth" of PURIFICATION/BETTERMENT or "approaching/performing" it or "prefering/favoring" it (some of the meanings of 4th or 1th or 3rd, in order of appearence, stem of the verb atw/y often used in combination with the word zakat) a better translation for the "eetaauz- zakat" or "itaauz-zakat" etc. from "giving charity" or "paying zakat".... best wishes Zlatan

I found the islamic banking system is just another form of interest banking system as they use a different terminology but bottom line, they allow you to borrow from them because they can get something plus in return. So whether you are poor or not, it does not matter, they consider they are doing business with you instead. I will even add that the irony is a poor has almost no chance to borrow from them as you may know, he/she wont' meet the requirements. Prior to borrowing, they ask you to invest with them and a big chunck-), you don't do that with a poor-). I personally think this is the "hole" overlooked in our effort to understand this issue of riba from a Quran perspective. And God knows best. Peace. Myr. Salaams Myr interesting thoughts - certainly given me something to reflect on. peace asdfjk

Peace all, Riba is usury, usury is not trade. Trade is the reciprocal exchange of the fruuts of your labours. Usury is a one-sided extraction of the fruits of the labours of others. Debt with interest and fees is the interest demanded for the use of money. Taxation is the interest demanded for the use of your labours. Rental is the interest demanded for the use of infrastructure. Profit is the interest demanded for the use of capital. Ownership is the interest demanded for the use of land. The alternative to ownership is to re-establish the allodium, which is based on the idea that you may only own that which you yourself create. If a cryptocurrency is created within a closed bond, interest and fee free, linked in value to purchasing power and only created in advance when linked to an external guarantee, allowing a zero balance check, you would for the first time in recorded history have a true medium of exchange. Using this model of exchange I've explained how to re-establish the allodium https//earthcoinage.com/allodium-platform/

Peace All, if you'd like to consider how national banks and governments function have a read Excerpt "The study of Economics is the study of fraud, and the biggest fraud in economics, is economics itself. Most economists are fools or charlatans. The charlatan wants to get prestigious jobs and Nobel prizes by offering crackpot advice. The fools think it will work." https//earthcoinage.com/?page_id=7664

Riba means one word in Lanes Lexicon of Arabic, ‘Usury’, and usury has only one lawful definition detailed in Black’s law dictionary Usury is a certain benefit which is received for the use of the thing lent beyond the return in full of the thing lent, and is not lawful. So the simple reality of usury is corrupted and confused, to allow those who wish to steal, to hide their thefts from their victims, or for the very deceptive from themselves. Trade is a reciprocal exchange of the fruits of your labour for the fruits of the labours of another, Usury is a one-sided extraction of the fruits of the labours of another, which has 5 basic forms, profit (the interest demanded for the use of capital), rental (the interest demanded for the use of infrastructure), taxation (the interest demanded for the use of your body), and ownership (the interest demanded for land use through the fiction of eminent domain) For religious Muslims Riba is worshiped with far more enthusiasm and commitment than anything else in their lives. This is amusing to me, as their hypocrisy is only out done by their wilful ignorance.

ALJiZYaT copy and spread the message before the shaitans delete part of it or all. Aljzyt is something to be imposed on the unbelievers after a war. However, the word aljzyt is one of the words buried under layers of dirty lies that are very convenient to the hypocrites, lies that almost all of the sects agree upon. Then, what is the real meaning of aljzyt, and when is right to apply it? Let see first what the hypocrites say about it. The next explanation found on Muhamad Assad M. of Quran embraces most of the nonsensical ideas going around in the hypocrite Muslim world The term jizyah, rendered by me as "exemption tax", occurs in the Qur'an only once, but its meaning and purpose have been fully explained in many authentic Traditions. It is intimately bound up with the concept of the Islamic state as an ideological organization and this is a point which must always be borne in mind if the real purport of this tax is to be understood. In the Islamic state, every able-bodied Muslim is obliged to take up arms in jihad (i.e., in a just war in God's cause) whenever the freedom of his faith or the political safety of his community is imperiled in other words, every able-bodied Muslim is liable to compulsory military service. Since this is, primarily, a religious obligation, non-Muslim citizens, who do not subscribe to the ideology of Islam, cannot in fairness be expected to assume a similar burden. On the other hand, they must be accorded full protection of all their civic rights and of their religious freedom and it is in order to compensate the Muslim community for this unequal distribution of civic burdens that a special tax is levied on non-Muslim citizens (ahl adh-dhimmah, lit., "covenanted" people", i.e., non-Muslims whose safety is statutorily assured by the Muslim community). Thus, jizyah is no more and no less than an exemption tax in lieu of military service and in compensation for the "covenant of protection" (dhimmah) accorded to such citizens by the Islamic state. (The term itself is derived from the verb jazd, "he rendered as a satisfaction", or "as a compensation " -cf. Lane II, 422.) No fixed rate has been set either by the Qur'an or by the Prophet for this tax; but from all available Traditions it is evident that it is to be considerably lower than the tax called zakah ("the purifying dues&quot to which Muslims are liable and which - because it is a specifically Islamic religious duty - is naturally not to be levied on non-Muslims. Only such of the non-Muslim citizens who, if they were Muslims, would be expected to serve in the armed forces of the state are liable to the payment of jizyah, provided that they can easily afford it. Accordingly, all non-Muslim citizens whose personal status or condition would automatically free them from the obligation to render military service are statutorily - that is, on the basis of clear-cut ordinances promulgated by the Prophet - exempted from the payment of jizyah (a) all women, (b) males who have not yet reached full maturity, (c) old men, (d) all sick or crippled men, (e) priests and monks. All non-Muslim citizens who volunteer for military service are obviously exempted from the payment of jizyah. My rendering of the expression 'an yad (lit., "out of hand&quot as "with a willing hand", that is, without reluctance, is based on one of several explanations offered by Zamakhshari in his commentary on the above verse. Rashid Rida', taking the word yad in its metaphorical significance of "power" or "ability", relates the phrase can yad to the financial ability of the person liable to the payment of jizyah (see Manar X, 342) an interpretation which is undoubtedly justified in view of the accepted definition of this tax. So, according to this nonsensical explanation, believers fight the unbelievers only to become their protectors, so that they can enjoy life. And believers will be willing to give their lives to protect the infidels for a few dinars. See how shaitan deludes the mind of the hypocrites. First, in the judgement/law/dyn of God there is no compulsion in matters of faith, so nobody can be obliged to take up arms in jihad. Believer offer themselves willingly, and those who have to be left behind, stay behind crying for having nothing to give, God says in the Qura'n. Second, an unbeliever can never be part of the believer´s army, for in the Torah just as in Qura'n even those weak of faith are commanded to be left behind. Believing brothers, let’s leave behind all that nonsense of the hypocrites and better look at the truth Lit trans. 929 you shall fight those who not they believe in The God, and nor in the day the last, and not they forbid what has forbidden The God and His messenger, and not they judging/deeming(ydynwn) with the true judgement/law(dyn) of those who have been given the book, until they give/deal with/engage on/ donate/gift(y't.wa) the requital/compensation/recompense/payment for something done(aljzyt) willingly, and they subdued-ones(sagrwn). Believing brothers, to have a deeper meaning of the word aljzyt , ask God for understanding, and analyze de root jzy which appears in 5331, 3133, 2825, 2015, 3417, 3133, 2076, 982, 595. In conclusion, aljzyt has nothing to do with the multilayered dirt the hypocrites are preaching. Aljzyt clearly seems to be either a war-debt that has to be imposed on the unbelievers until they pay for all the damages to life and property that resulted from the war they started, or the trial and punishment of death of those who financed and orchestrated the war, or both. (3121) and when they are told to follow that which God has bestowed from on high, they answer, "Nay, we shall follow that which we found our forefathers believing in and doing!" Why - even if Satan had invited them unto the suffering of the blazing flame? (3769) for, behold, they found their forebears on a wrong way, (3770) and they make haste to follow in their footsteps'. (3771) Thus, indeed, most of the people of old went astray before them, (3772) although, verily, We had sent warners unto them (3773) and behold what happened in the end to those that had been warned !3774EXCEPT for God's true servants. Believing brothers be cautious, May God increase our knowledge and give us wisdom.

Salam/Peace I'm looking for a financial co-founder. PM me. Salam/Peace

Salam, is it possible to share product equity instead of company equity in Europe? Hard to find an answer on the www. Thanks!

hello everyone,l'm new in coran researches, l want to know more about the economical system in coran. what is the position of coran toward private property and capitalism

There is a resolution being introduced reverse citizens united and this of course would restore free and fair elections in america, and get the money out of politics. We are trying to introduce a resolution by way of article V (see https//www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTEFbbxMXyo) Please speak with your local or state rep/senator about this resolution

Should borrowers stop making repayment to banks ? But if you (bank) repent, you may have your principal - you do no wrong, nor are you wronged. 2.79 http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=AYI6ktNfLdU http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=UHXcz-X-1ic Class Action Accuses Banks of Illegal Creation of Money http//www.freewebs.com/classaction/ http//www.newmediaexplorer.org/sepp/2005/04/19/canada_class_action_accuses_banks_of_illegal_creation_of_money.htm http//canadiansituations.wordpress.com/category/the-case-against-the-bank-of-canada/