Economics Forum

Bank fees and charges are exhorbitant , but since the government allows the banks to do what they like , those charges are 'legal' so we cannot call them theft although it is little difference from day-light robbery and common theft . So , your only recourse is to call your local MP's office and complain about it and hopefully the government will legislate to restrain banks from raising charges . Peace Apparantly, the charges are in the T&C's so you have to pay them. But a lot of people are claiming them back somehow. The court case regarding these fees is taking a long time! Here is an update http//www.firstdirect.com/1st-account/overdraft-charges.shtml God bless

Peace progressive1993 I have responded to some of your Comments on this thread. http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597204.0 As for the article you referenced, I find that one of the major flaws in the argument that riba has nothing to do with commercial dealings, is that one who has requirement for basic needs is entitled to sadaqa, & need not be asking for a loan. Imo, such a person would have a right to any excess wealth that I may have. Imraan

Don't invest in gold, invest in organic seeds a few thousand tons, different foods, herbs, stuff (black cumin seed oil), and a food vacuum sealer. By the end of 2009 (Codex Alimentarius), GM will be in force. No one likes seedless foods. Or if you can, to earn some reward from the god. Sell organic food seeds to those who are getting free GM seeds. Sell it for cheap. And by the way, gold is used in many industrial applications.

Peace Wakas, Did I or The Quran say that God delivers all the 'rizq' (e.g. food, clothing, shelter) we need directly to us as if by magic without any effort on our part? No, as this is illogical. I agree with this. The reason for asking the question I did, was to remove the illogical concept from the discussion because while you do agree that this is illogical, there are actually those who don't. I am saying God has provided all that we need to live on earth, and we are left to choose on how to use such resources or access them. Some will have more than others, hence a duty upon those who have to give to those who do not. This too, I agree with. If this is the case, do you then take the view that it is the duty of a mu'min to take care of the needs of others once his needs are met, but before he invests for his future? Or do you take the view that a mu'min is free to invest freely while others around him still find their basic needs not being met, as long as they feel they have contributed enough, or any other view that you may hold in this regard. I never read past this statement of yours, as it demonstrates what you've done with almost all your referencing, i.e. give your view then attempt to back it up with an extrapolated interpretation of a verse. My referencing is obviously explained by my understanding of those verses. To say that I have a bias is to assume that my research is based on a preconceived notion of some sort. This is an assumption without warrant since you do not know what research has gone into developing my view. I grew up in a free maket society. To keep holding the view that a free market society is closer to being Quranic than the view I hold would be the easiest & most convenient thing in the world for me. Rather than making sweeping generalisations about my biased understanding of Quranic verses, you should present your biased understanding of the same & we could then either come to a more common understanding or agree to disagree. You haven't presented an alternate understanding of any of the verses I have quoted, except one. I am not here to make any attempt to push my understanding on any issue. I would simply like to find a broad base of views that would contribute to my understanding of the Quran. In fact, I posted previously on thjis forum regarding this issue & did not receive many replies at all. The essence of that post was that in my research I have found that a Socialist economy is closer to the Quranic economic system than a free market economy. I wasn't (and still am not) sure if my research indicated this because proponents of Socialist style economies in view of Quran had simply presented the facts in a more commanding way with references of Quran while free market proponents that I have read seem to simply rehash modern economic theory in trying to justify their view. In addition to this, my own thought process may be flawed in the way I have reached my conclusions. I am totally open to & would in fact welcome a proper Quranically referenced view on why the Quran supports a free market economy, whether it be by way of a link to an article that someone else may have written or a presentation of your personal view on the subject. Imraan

Peace all, These are just my thoughts.. I am beginning to think of why it is a sin for both the loaner and the borrower. Supply should equal demand in a free market. The price of commodities adjusts according to this. However if people borrow to buy things they cannot afford. It pushes the price up. Which I believe is why the housing prices have reached ridiculous heights. Basically, people who should not even be thinking of that 200K house are able to buy it, increasing the demand and making it 220k for future generations. Its a vicious cycle which will put the cost of such commodities out of reach for a lot of people (unless they borrow). I don't see why anyone would want this. Apart from the greedy bankers. Borrowing with interest is what enables such massive loaning to occur. Without interest who would loan 200k+ ? Peace. I don't agree that it's a sin for the borrower. I know what you mean when you talk about people who buy things that are way too expensive. I saw a program on TV the other day where a guy was talking about this huge and expensive house he bought. He couldn't make the payments, so he left it for another fancy house. Couldn't afford that one either, so he goes and gets a third house. It's unbeliavable how many people are doing these kinds of things. A civil engineer makes around $55, 000 to begin with, and the total cost for tuition and everything at a college I'm considering is around $100,000. If I finished college, then I would get an apartment, finish paying off the student loan as fast as I can, and then start making actual profit. I would probably always save up the money for something and then buy it. I don't feel that there is anything wrong with my plan and if somebody disagrees, then please comment.

i think we all just need to chip in and buy the principality Sealand, an old oil rig in the north sea that has enjoyed completely independent economic, social, political, and geographic independence but little else. we can set up a server farm there and sell domains for revenue if we can get a good suffix. a similar ploy has been working out for the island nation of Tuvalu (.tv). we could even let google station their new latest patent pending project there..a floating server farm powered By ocean waves. well...its all coming together in my head...just need to follow through on my ideas.

Peace, Respectfully. If person G borrows person L, $10.000 USD, and says, pay me back in one solar year, then he has to pay him back $10.000 USD, correct? Peace.

I think we also misunderstood this verse as is also ointed out in the debate 2275 Those who devour usury will not stand except as stand one whom the Evil one by his touch Hath driven to madness. That is because they say "Trade is like usury," but God hath permitted trade and forbidden usury. Those who after receiving direction from their Lord, desist, shall be pardoned for the past; their case is for God (to judge); but those who repeat (The offence) are companions of the Fire They will abide therein (for ever). Usually we understand this to mean that those people who wanna justify their consumption of usury claim "The deal is like usury(al-baih MITHLA ARRIBA)". But if that were the case wouldnt theyve claimed the exact oppsosite i.e. "Usury is like dealing(Arriba MITHLu BAIH)&quot. Actually those people, whilst themselves consuming riba because of not giving enough charity hence illicitly increasing their wealth, wanna confuse trade with usury and hence they claim that a specific baih(deal/trade), namely interest, is riba, WHILST IT IS NOT and GOD is condemning them saying HE HAS ALLOWED THAT DEALING(baih). These people are non others than todays co called Muslims. They make this claim. GOD Bless!

Indeed, but in practice, where there is no government to enforce law as in Iraq and southern Lebanon, militias take its place. And they like to fight each other. They are in fact pseudo-governments in themselves. Think of it in terms of subsidiarity - the principle that all powers should be devolved to the lowest practical level. Most decisions should stay with individuals, so we have primary control over our own lives. But if we take things like education, society benefits if all children go to school, so it is useful to have a government to make a law requiring parents to send their children to school, and taxes to subsidise education as the free market will under provide and it is important for the economy that people are literate. However, this doesn't have to be the central government of a nation-state, these functions can be done by local governments, say the local Town Council. If on the other hand, when it comes to defence against armed gangs, the local town council isn't enough. Weapons are expensive, as is training professional soldiers. But if you don't have professional soldiers, then any mega rich businessman would be able to hire his own militia, and conquer and enslave the people of your town. Hence the need for central government, national-states, standing armies and democratic control of the military. When there's no government to do this, militias take there place. Hezbollah provides education, social security, doctors and policing to south Lebanon. Why don't individuals do this themselves, why do they accept help from the militia? Obviously, because on their own they won't be able to afford to send their children to school, and when Israel bombs them, Hezbollah gives them money to rebuild their homes. Of course, you can say it's Hezbollah's fault Israel attacks, but if it weren't Hezbollah that provoked Israel, some other militia would - in the 1980s Israel invaded to fight the PLO. And if Israel didn't exist, it would be some other country or militia stirring up trouble. Because it is basic flaws in human nature that cause us to fight each other. We evolved to sometimes be selfish and greedy, it's not the governments fault. Government is both necessary and desirable as a means to protect us from the malicious instincts of others. This is also why, to solve the problem of Nation-States fighting each other and failing to co-operate, we have supra-national governments, like the European Union, and International governments, like the United Nation. The world finds peace in unity.

Peace "huruf", JD- I know that prices fluctuate. But can you show me anymoern economy where the IPC is lower now than 5-10-15-20 years ago? You can't. It doesn't happen. JK- What IPC are you talking about as it can refer to many things including Ikano Power Centre, a shopping mall in Mutiara Damansara, Selangor, Malaysia International Paralympic Committee, an international non-profit organisation of elite sports for athletes with disabilities International Parachuting Commission, The International Parachuting Commission of F?d?ration A?ronautique Internationale. International Patent Classification, a classification system IPC Media, a magazine publisher Iraq Petroleum Company, an oil company Irish Parachute Club (LTD), A Skydiving operation based in Ireland. Infrared Processing Center, at Oak Ridge National Laboratory International People's College, Denmark IPC (electronics), the Association Connecting Electronics Industries, or the Institute for Printed Circuits, is known for setting standards for the electronics industry. ? So which one is it? So money always looses value. JK- Looses value wrt WHAT? Lets consider the currency of a country as money. Now the value of most vehicles and all sorts of electronic items, which are one of the most important items in todays world, always lose value wrt to the currency. Hence the currency GAINS VALUE against these and so the value of money has increased here. If you mean food items then i already gave you an example that it depends on the current conditions, sometimes the price being high, sometimes low. Same would be the case with precious metals and gems i.e. as long as they are considered precious and useful the value wrt to the currenies would be high. Should the demand decrease, or even further should the supply increase due to 1) artificial production of such or 2) extraction of such from outer space like comets and/or asteroids which is rather more likely, it would decrease. Then there is house/building/land value wrt currency. But even that depends mainly on how much commercial activity is in the area and we know that sooner or later even a booming market place might collapse or the area may become polluted or even rumours of such would be enough to drive values down wrt currency considerably. So i dont see where there is a continuous up in such prices either. I was not here putting forward a theoretical question, simply giving to understand to normal, not rich people, that the fact of getting some interest on some savings account was not only not usury, but in fact just a little help to have their money less devalued. JK- As i said it can go both ways and yes should the value of the holder's currency decrease wrt to all local produdcts then yes in that case interest has helped him/her in not losing too much BUT also what if the value of the currency INcreased OR remained same wrt all local products? In those cases not only would the holder have made no loss BUT PROFIT, TWICE in the first case. In general, you do not seem to get what I say or want to say, and I don't know how to say it better. Salaam JK- No i think i got it just fine with a few exceptions which is almost always the case with everyone. GOD Bless!

Peace all, "Islamic" banking uses a technique similar to the "contractum trinius(see http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contractum_trinius)" and is thus indeed no different from the interest banking, oerhaps even worse by trying to fool people showing them theyr better and more fair whilst they aint. GOD Bless!

Hello Tay, Pardon me for this belated reply since I was pretty much engulfed in my work for the last few days. May I ask what field of Real Estate are you folks evolving into? I am a licensed appraiser and a loan processor in the state of CA. Since the last year, in general, Real Estate markets in the USA has taken a drastic turn downhill; pretty much slump. This is mainly due to sub-prime loans and over-inflated valuations, where the lower and middle class have hit hard on, one of many reasons of foreclosures, short sales and pre-foreclosed purchases. Not only that there is overabundance of competition in all areas, but the fact that people are becoming "cut throats" which needs to be stopped. I believe the FBI is now involved in catching up and penalizing the cultprits. I presume that the market trend will remain somewhat similar for sometime until the Real Estate industry as a whole smooths out a bit. Several new policies and conditions are being implemented and will affect the 2008, hopefully for the better. California seems to be the hardest hit due to its strategically geographic, demographic and economic overtures in relations to Real Estate. Unless the pricing structure is parallel with current market conditions, new contruction in similar neighborhoods is likely to fall out, for the simple reason that when market is down the cost to contruct is up (progression vs regression in an inflated economy). Mind you, it also depends upon location, appeal and supply/demand. Currently, as an average individual, I would not want to purchase a high priced brand new home when I could easily buy an equally good or better "older" home for far less in the same subdivision or neighborhood. I'm not much familiar with NYC and NJ in particular, but do know that the trends are generally similar. If people have steady income and are reasonably well off, this is the time to get into property investments which may pay off well in the near future or perhaps wait till the end of this year when purchasing seems strongest and bargaining effective, as in buyer's market. Hope to hear from you more. Peace!

Peace Kurt, Wakas, all, Kurt Yes, I've seen a couple other ones, but they were more limited to the U.S. Federal Reserve system. Thanks for the quotes. Wakas Whenever in such a situation, my advice, do what you can and let God take care of the rest. Very good advice. I think the least I can do is spread the information, as most people just don't know how money is created. I am also a member of a political party that is advocating monetary reform. peace

bravo angel peace group

I have since been told all you need to do is change the plug for items in Slovenia to be used in the UK. The reason I ask is I sometimes import items from other countries. Need to work out cost-effectiveness first though.

Ohuhoh, there's lot's more of this -[ I better list some links rather than pics, I don't have time right now but I'll do so the next time I'm on the forum. Salam

No, and I see no difference in what a lot of ISlamic banks do today (adding on potential increase in property value to the loan) as being different than interest, as a general principle.

Peace, Look up in this translation for the words 'Zakat' and for 'Economic System' http//www.beacon2005.com/QXP.pdf And here Parwez gives a summary of the System http//www.tolueislam.com/Parwez/QL/QL_14.htm When i know more writings on this i will post them.

Oops! -Important What the Price of Gold is Telling Us

Salam, Good work and thank you for sharing it with us. My only comment is that the work is based on a translation of verses that I consider to be far from the original Arabic Quran verses so unaccurate. Also, any attempt to use "dictionary" to explain a simple concept like charity while it is described in Quran is for me is for me weak. Overall good work and may God the All-Mighty reward your friend for his efforts. Peace. Myr. Salaam all, A friend of mine, Kent, wrote this article. I thought I'd share with you all. USURY 211 And when it is said to them, do not cause corruption in the earth, they say, ?surely we are the reformists?. 3039 And what you give in usury, that it may increase upon the people's wealth, increases not with God; but what you give in alms, desiring God's Face, those -- they receive recompense manifold. It is incredible that 15 centuries have passed since the revelations of the quran that every successive Muslim is faced with the challenge of giving new dimensions and fresh economic meanings to this term, or want of a better word, maybe rendered as usury. The uncertainty of the subject is evidenced by the by the voluminous juridical literature on this subject, and until today the Islamic scholars have not yet been able to reach and absolute agreement on the definition of riba, a definition, that is, which would cover all conceivable legal situations and positively respond to all the exigencies and of variable economic environment. This subject remains ambiguous and very much a misconjecture. The quranic condemnation of the concept and practice of riba is unequivocal and absolutely final, yet people today, especially the Muslims are content in their indifference, whom, in all probability, might be leading their lives an and around a system which is abhored by God. 2278 O you who believe -- observe God and leave whatever balance from the profiteering -- if you are really a sincere believer. 2279 And if do not respond -- thus you should know -- an announcement prevails of a war - from God and His messengers -- and if you are repentant -- thus, for you is the basic (ro'usu) (2196) of the your wealth -- then it is just - and you will not suffer any injustice. Why is it, and how a subject of such importance that warranted such stern warning from God, be too difficult for man to comprehend? Or, perchance, could this be due to the evil schemes of the devil and his advocates? To ridicule it further, a muslim scholar Umar ibn Al Khattab is reliable reported to have said"the last that was revealed weas the passage on riba; and, behold, the messenger of God passed away before having explained its meanings to us. (Ibn Hanbal, on the authority of Sa?id anh al-Masyyab). Obviously the moron who claimed to be Islamic had never read and study the quran, as that statement is inconsistent with 3144, which is continuity with the subject of usury, charity and righteousness beginning from verse 3130. 3130 O believers, devour not usury, doubled and redoubled, and fear you God; haply so you will prosper 3144 Muhammad is naught but a Messenger; Messengers have passed away before him. Why, if he should die or is slain, will you turn about on your heels? If any man should turn about on his heels, he will not harm God in any way; and God will recompense the thankful. 1039 No; but they have cried lies to that whereof they comprehended not the knowledge, and whose interpretation has not yet come to them. Even so those that were before them cried lies; then behold how was the end of the evildoers! It is fundamental in any attempt to study a given subject in the quran that one is clear, firstly, of the of the concept, at least. Next, context is essential to get the clear picture. It has been said and it is true that the reading interpret itself best, and therefore this method will be applied herein, by only presenting the related verses. 21 A.L.M. 22 That Book is without doubt - in it - a guide - for those who are observant The reading guides in two ways -- good and evil. The guidance will be incomplete if it is not and such is God?s system that He created things in pairs and opposites. Black becomes prominent besides white and vice-versa, and because ?opposites attracts? it has made study purposes, easier. 5149 And of everything created We two kinds; haply you will remember The subject appeared in four different surahs 2275-279, 3130, 4161, 3039. In 2275-279 connects logically with the proceeding long passage on of the subject of charity (2261-274) and reconnect with the proceeding passage on the subject of loan (2280-283) therefore in keeping with context, it is appropriate to study both subject of charity and loan, which will at the end, unfold usury into a clear picture, a picture as day emerging out of the night. for the benefit of those who are not in possession of the reading, here is the whole text of 2261-283 CHARITY 2261 The example of those who contribute their wealth in the path of God -- is like the example of a seed that grows seven stems. From each and every stem one hundred seeds -- and God He multiplies for whoever He wills and God is bounteous -- the knower. 2262 Those who contribute their wealth in the path of God then they did not follow up what they have contributed by chattering -- and without interference - for them -- their reward is by their Lord -- and there will be no fear on them -- and they will not grieve. Conspicuous words and to forgive is better than charity 2263 Conspicuous words and forgiveness is better than charity followed by disorder - and God is very rich -- very lenient. 2264 O you who believe, do not annul your charity with the evocation and disorder like those who contributed their wealth to show off to the people - and they never believe with God and the day of the hereafter -- thus -- their example is like the smooth stones over them thin soils -- consequently the heavy rain falls on it -- thus it left them completely flat. They have no control over anything from whatever they do -- and God -- He will not guide the communities - who disbelieve. 2265 And the example of those who contribute their wealth in seeking the pleasure of God and to reinforce their souls - is like a garden on high surface with heavy rainfalls on it -- thus it produces its food twofold. Consequently if there is no heavy rain over it -- thus light moisture is adequate. And God is with whatever your deeds are -- watching. 2266 Does anyone of you wish that he - for him a garden from the dates and grapes - flowing from beneath it -- are the rivers for him. Inside it - there is every kind of grains - but he is stricken by old age whilst his progenies are weak -- consequently he is stricken by a hurricane of fire -- consequently - it burns them up. That is how God explains to you His signs - so that you may think. 2267 O you who believe, contribute from the good things of whatever you have earned and from whatever We produced for you from the earth -- and do not choose the worthless from it - as your contributions - whilst you will not accept them unless your eyes are closed in it. And let it be known -- surely God is very rich -- worthy of all praises. 2268 The evil characters promise you poverty and it instructs you with committing wickedness -- and God - He promised you forgiveness from He Himself - and also the grace -- and God is abound -- He knows everything. There is nothing better than being endowed with the Wisdom 2269 He endows the wisdom to whomever He wills -- and those who are endowed the wisdom -- thus -- indeed he is endowed the good things in abundance. No one will reflect about it - except those who are intelligent. 2270 And whatever you contributed from any contribution - or you pledged from any pledge -- thus -- indeed God knows about it -- and there is nothing for those who are unjust -- as of any helper. 2271 If you display the charity -- thus it is good -- and if you conceal it and you give away to the needy -- thus it is better for you -- and He will remit over you from your wrongdoings -- and God is with whatever your deeds are-- very well acquainted. Nobody can guide others except God Himself 2272 It is not upon you to guide them -- however it is God who guides whomever He wills -- and whatever you contributed from the good things -- thus it is for your own good -- and you must not contribute unless you are seeking God?s presence - and whatever you contributed from the good things it will be repaid to you -- and you will not suffer any injustice. 2273 For those who are in need - they are obstructed in the path -- and they are unable to function in the earth -- it is assumed by those who are ignorant that they are rich - from the way they request -- you can recognise them with their character - they never ask the people by demanding. And whatever you contribute from the good things - indeed God - it is with Him -- the knowledge. 2274 Those who contribute their wealth by nights and by day - secretly and openly -- thus for them is the rewards by their Lord - and there shall be no fear upon them and they will never grieve. USURY 2275 Those who net from profiteering they are not aware except the way of those who are absorbed from the touch of the evil character. That is because they say, ?Indeed it is a trade -- like -- making profits?. And God allows trading and He forbids profiteering -- thus whoever had received the admonition from His Lord -- consequently he stops -- surely for him whatever the past - and his affairs will be to God. And whoever continues -- thus they are the residents of the Fire - and they will abide therein forever. 2276 God diminishes profiteering and He propagates charities -- and God dislikes all those who disbelieve -- continue in committing crime. 2277 Indeed those who believe and do the deeds of righteousness and uphold their commitments and endow its purity -- thus for them the rewards by their Lord -- and there will be no fear on them and they will not grieve. 2278 O you who believe -- observe God and leave whatever balance from the profiteering -- if you are really a sincere believer. 2279 And if do not respond -- thus you should know -- an announcement prevails of a war - from God and His messengers -- and if you are repentant -- thus, for you is the basic (ro'usu) (2196) of the your wealth -- then it is just - and you will not suffer any injustice. LOAN 2280 And if there is anyone having difficulties -- thus allow it to postpone to a convenient time (mai-sa-rati) (2219). And if you are charitable it is better for you -- if you really know. 2281 And observe the day at a time all of you within it -- will go to God -- then it will be repaid equitably to each individual self of whatever they did -- and they will not suffer any injustice. Verses 2282-2283 lays out the loan procedures, and of writing down the loan agreement, which is important in safeguarding the borrower?s and the lender?s interests. And to avoid any future misunderstandings between them. It also lays down the rule of loaning, whereby the borrower dictates his undertakings, and conditions of the loan. 2282 O you who believe -- when you transact with a loan towards a fixed period -- thus you shall write them down -- and it should be recorded between you - write with fairness -- and the person who records must not refuse to write the way he was taught by God -- thus he should write it down - and it should be read by the person himself - upon him is the rights -- and let him observe God - his Lord. And he should not overlook from it the details. And if anyone on him is the rights -- but is mentally incompetent or is incapable for himself of reading -- thus it should be read by his representatives with fairness -- and it should be witnessed -- two witnesses from your men. And if two men are not available -- then one man and two ladies from the persons you approved from the witnesses. If one forgets - the one may remind the other. The witnesses must not refuse when they are called -- and you shall not neglect to write them down either the minor or major details towards its fixed period. This is more just by God -- and it strengthens the purpose of witnessing - and it is ideal - as it will not raise any doubts -- except in buying and selling by cash that you conduct between you. Therefore there is no offence on you for not writing them down. And it must be witnessed when you trade. And never cause any hardship to the writer nor the witnesses -- and if you do -- thus indeed the wickedness is with you -- and observe God. And God teaches you with every single thing - He is very knowledgeable. 2283 And if you are on assignments and you cannot get it recorded therefore place a deposit as security. Thus if you trust with each other -- accordingly you must fulfil that is believed to be your undertaking -- thus you shall observe God -- your Lord. And do not conceal anything as a witness -- and anyone who conceals anything -- thus indeed he has wronged his own heart. And God is with whatever your deeds are -- He is very knowledgeable. (to be continued...)