Archeology & History

Here is a link to an interesting book about the travels of a Biblical scholar through the Palestine / Jordan region, by caravan, in 1838. You will find the language condescending and obnoxious but if you can ignore that... you are given a vivid description of the terrain, archeological ruins, and lifestyle of the Arab tribes within this area. What is particularly fascinating is mention of the Jehalin Arab tribe. Could the term jahiliyya possibly refer to the ways of this tribe in the 6th century...rather than a pre-Islamic era? Even if this question is not of interest to you, the places intricately described on the caravan routes are likely places the Prophet Muhammad would have known well, thus gives us a glimpse of what his travels entailed. http//books.google.com/books?id=ZdsUAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA98&lpg=PA98&dq=jehalin+keis+tribes&source=bl&ots=rMY5s5Zq60&sig=_tqUx9df-qegYSEESSYluZetKZM&hl=en&ei=tPoKTcjbC4OClAfMr6ziCw&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1&ved=0CBUQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q&f=false

Peace all I recommend this interesting text about the kingdoms of Africa http//www.africankingdoms.com/

Selam I thought I share this documentary I have just watched. Its interesting to hear that the down fall of Muslim power in Spain was due to battles among muslims and others taking advantage of this to move in and take over! Enjoy. http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=x0IaCK-7z5o&feature=player_embedded#

The History of Islam as told by the Orthodox seem to depict a downward spiral after Ali. Mu'awiyah and his descedents come across as total hedonists. Being a pagan heir in Mecca and devotee to the pre-Islamic pagan Kaaba, and then converting to Islam when left with no other choice, furthermore becoming ruler (thus re-establishing the Quraysh dominance), his rein predates the earliest hadith by heaps of years, plenty of time to exact influence over codified 'Islam'. The nationalism, racialism, political opulence, etc that appear within the hadith could all easily be motivated by Mu'awiyah's own personal interests, and subsequently the interests of the Umayyads. He sounds like a proper arab Constantine (or perhaps a cross between Constantine and Judas). Were the later scholars who defined Islam as it stands today his Council of Nicea?

My computer is gay. That's what this accidentally made topic proves.

Opinions regarding this book http//www.terrorism-illuminati.com/book/toc.html Have you read it?

Can someone please shed light on the name It does not look like a standard 3-consonental root derivative... is the Jeem a grammatical operator? If so, is it an Arabic word or of a related language like Safaitic etc. (actually it seems more common in Iraq and nearby regions so a local dialect perhaps)? The answer may give rise to more questions as to why would this name be used by Arabs of Mecca (if at all). Pointers welcome and appreciated.

Peace all, Layth, ''When access to the Spirit was granted to humankind, and when God gave His command that all His creation (including the angels) were to yield to the authority of the Spirit bestowed upon our species, Satan, who represented the energy beings known as ?Jinn? objected to this action and objected to God?s choice in granting the Spirit and authority to man. Satan was arrogant in his thinking that the element from which he was created (fire) was more superior to man?s lowly physical body, and hence he believed it was his race that should have been given the opportunity to have God?s gift and not the humans.'' This trust that was offered, can it not be in itself a ''successor'' in the awarding of the trust? At this point God's intention being to establish this trust on earth. Could it not be that Satan's race had the trust, not limited to earth and that God was establishing a successor to that trust specifically on earth? The story as I understand it is not about thinking his race should have been given the opportunity to have God's gift for his plan on earth as that race does not appear present in accepting the offer. Could it be that Satan does not see in the human race a worthy succesor of his races gift which they held prior? adjwi

http//links.jstor.org/sici?sici=0003-097X%28199702%29305%3C19%3APROT1S%3E2.0.CO%3B2-V&size=LARGE&origin=JSTOR-enlargePage

Peace, Before I was going to order it I wanted to know what the reviews said; I'm talkin about the book "Seeing Islam As Others Saw It" by Robert G. Hoyland. This is how I found out about the series and I thought I'd share it with you. Vol. 01 - The Byzantine And Early Islamic Near East (papers of workshops on Late Antiquity And Early Islam edited by A. Cameron, L.I. Conrad, G.R.D. King and J. Haldon) 1.1 Problems In The Literary Source Materials 1.2 Land Use And Settlement Patterns 1.3 States, Resources, and Armies 1.4 Patterns Of Communal Identity 1.5 Trade and Exchange 1.6 Elites Old And New Vol. 02 - The Christian Communities Of Palestine From Byzantine To Islamic Rule A Historical And Archaeological Study Vol. 03 - The Early Arabic Historical Tradition A Source-Critical Study Vol. 04 - Studies In Early Islamic History Vol. 05 - The Eye Of The Beholder The Life Of Muhammad As Viewed By The Early Muslims - A Textual Analysis Vol. 06 - Saints Syriaques Vol. 07 - A Gateway To Hell, A Gateway To Paradise The North African Response To The Arab Conquests Vol. 08 - Arabs And Others In Early Islam Vol. 09 - History Of Historiography In Early Islamic Times Studies & Perspectives Vol. 10 - Continuatio Of The Samaritan Chronicle Of Abu L'Fath Al Samiri Al Danafi Vol. 11 - The Earliest Biographies Of The Prophet And Their Authors Vol. 12 - ...? Vol. 13 - Seeing Islam As Others Saw It A Survey And Evaluation Of Christian, Jewish And Zoroastrian Writings On Early Islam Vol. 14 - Narratives Of Islamic Origin The Beginnings Of Islamic Historical Writing Vol. 15 - ...? Vol. 16 - ...? Vol. 17 - Between Bible And Quran The Children Of Israel And The Islamic Self-Image Vol. 18 - ...? Vol. 19 - Lonely Wayfarer's Guide To Pilgrimage Vol. 20 - Ibn Asakir And Early Islamic History Vol. 21 - Studies In Muslim Apocalyptic Vol. 22 - ...? Vol. 23 - Constitution Of Medina Vol. ?? - Das Kitab Al-Amwal Des Abu 'Ubaid Al-Qasim B. Sallam Entstehung Und Uberlieferung Eines Fruhislamischen Rechtswerkes... Vol. ?? - Muhammadanea Edessensis The Rise Of Islam In Eastern Christian Historiography Under The Early 'Abbasids P.S. Btw, I received my copy a week ago or so. Still have to read it though.

....in a nutshell Part 1 http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=wg1fs6vp9Ok Part 2 http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=KMQk6MveZOE

An interesting quote from http//www.1911encyclopedia.org/Petra Severus (A.D. 222-235), when the city was at the height of its splendour, the issue of coinage comes to an end, and there is no more building of sumptuous tombs, owing apparently to some sudden catastrophe, such as an invasion by the neo-Persian power under the Sassanid dynasty. Meanwhile as Palmyra (fl. A.D. 130-270) grew in importance and attracted the Arabian trade away from Petra, the latter declined; it seems, however, to have lingered on as a religious centre; for we are told by Epiphanius (c. A.D. 315-403) that in his time a feast was held there on the 25th of December in honour of the virgin Chaabou and her offspring Dusares (Haer. 51). I see a similar pointer from "Arabia and the Arabs" by Hoyland page 252 Chaabou o The ch/kh sound is the same is K of Arabic, so I ask, is the Ka'BAH being spoken of here? I understand the virgin is Allat but why is she being called Chaabou amd not Chobar???

Secrets of ancient fort unearthed in Syria Published July 13, 2007, 1437 Masyaf, Syria Excavations at the foot of Syria's coastal mountains have revealed an ancient citadel that holds the mysteries of the medieval Assassins sect, once based here. Tonnes of debris have been cleared from the site since 2000, allowing researchers to learn more about the citadel's secretive occupants. The discoveries included a tunnel thought to be a secret escape passage and a system of channels designed to carry rain water into cisterns beneath the castle. Haytahm Ali Hasan, an archaeologist working on the project, said that in the 12th century, Muslim leader Saladin thought twice before attacking the Assassins at the Masyaf castle. "Anyone who tried to take the Assassins' castle would be dead the next day," Hasan said. It would appear that the Assassins' reputation preceeded them, however, because although they were master fighters, they were not very good at building castles. "The system of defence is very poor," Hasan said of the Masyaf castle. The Assassins had tried to copy the castles of the Crusaders and Saladin, "but not very well", he said, suggesting the fort's weaknesses might be evidence of the group's poverty. But what the Assassins lacked in might, they made up for in stealth. Saladin himself narrowly escaped one assassination attempt by their knife-wielding agents. The Assassins were led by Rashid Al Din Sinan, also known as "The Old Man of the Mountain". He used Masyaf as a base for spreading the beliefs of the Nizari Ismaili sect of Islam.

DISCLAIMER Although I have researched this topic and formulated a hypothesis that can be backed by evidence, this is analysis and opinion of a single individual... I am only human and am prone to mistakes in judgement. It is better if the reader verifies the information I am presenting. I would be glad if someone corrects me if I have made a mistake. The Truth of Pre-Quranic Scriptures Today, there are several misconceptions regarding the scriptures Allah revealed to the 3 major prophets before Muhammad. Muslims erroneously believe, due to fabricated sayings attributed to the exalted prophet, that Tauraat (Torah) was revealed to Moses. Similarly, what was revealed to Jesus was named Injeel (Gospel), and to David was the Zabur (Psalms). To a non-Muslim or a critical historian, three important questions would come to mind Torah was written after liberation of Jews from Babylon in 500BC. How could it be revelation? David is not considered a prophet but a king in the Torah. How did he receive revelation? No copy of the Gospel is found that does not refer to God and Jesus in 3rd person. This includes the Nag Hammadi scrolls. Moreover, Jesus came to confirm the truth in the Torah as a person of the Jewish faith. Why would he receive a new book from God? If he did, why are Gospels attributed to Mathew, Mark, Mary, Judas, John, and Baranabas among others. Where is the Gospel of God that was revealed to Jesus? Let us further study this confused image by first examining historical evidence, and complement it to the Quran to arrive at a definite conclusion. Tauraat Torah/Tauraat means Teachings or Law in Hebrew and is not an inherent Arabic word. It attributed to a 5-volume book constituting the scripture for people of the Jewish faith. It is a Jewish belief that the Torah is what was revealed to Moses during the course of his journey from Egypt to Jerusalem. Nonetheless, it is contended even by the most Ardent but pragmatic followers of the Jewish faith, that the Book revealed to Moses is lost. The Old Testament was revised and edited in approximately 500BC after Cyrus the Great liberated the Jews from Babylon. This rendition was a compilation of at least 12 different manuscripts written by various priests of the time, and was laced with myths absorbed from Mesopotamian regions. The foremost example of this is the name of God Himself. God is addressed by different names that seem to be used in a progressive fashion throughout the Torah. For instance, within Genesis alone, we observe the name of God as Elohim that is derived from the Babylonian El, and later this name changes to YHWH, and then YHWH Elohim, inspired by Ya or Iya of Edomite origin. In closing, it may suffice here to say that the word Tauraat has not occured in the Quran as a book that was revealed to Moses. Moreover, Moses is derived from Mosheh, something very close to Mashih (Messiah) in Hebrew. So it is uncertain whether Mosheh was this prophet's name, or was it his title. Zabur The idea that "zabur" refers to the Psalms of the Bible is doubtful, since these poems or songs were written likely after the exile. There is a possibility that some teachings of David ended up in the Psalms, but it cannot be determined to what degree. The name of the alleged Psalms in the Quran is Zabur. This is especially interesting since Zabur is the name of the Sabaic parchment script, which complements the Musnad monumental script. Like the Egyptian Hieratic, Zabur was used in daily transactions, as well as royal and priestly documentation on parchment or papyrus. This further gives a hint that David may have lived in South Arabian regions, a concept that is contradictory to the now traditional belief that David hailed from Jerusalem. In addition, the way the Quran mentions the Zabur is interesting. Consider the following 1755 And your Lord is best Aware of all beings who are in the Highs and the Lows. And indeed, We caused some Prophets to excel the others, and unto David We gave the Zabur. and 4163 We have sent you the Revelation as We sent it to Noah and the Prophets after him. We sent Revelations to Abraham, Ishmael, Isaac, Jacob, and his progeny (the Tribes), Jesus, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon; and to David We gave the Zabur. We observe that David has been given a special place, which may indicate that perhaps he was not a prophet, but his legacy was preserved in Zabur as an important ruler who enjoyed similar status as that of a prophet. Further, 1755 is especially interesting, since it outlines the function of some prophets, which was only to excel other prophets (likely before them). It can hence be concluded that some prophets did not receive a book, but only a revealed message to excel prophets before them or to foretell their advent. Injeel Injeel is not an Arabic word based on Samitic roots, but is derived from the Greek Euanggelion. This word was also translated into Anglican to be called Godspell and later Gospel. The word Euanggelion means Good News. As it can be observed, the original scripture (if revealed to Jesus - and which may not have been known by the name Injeel or Euanggelion) has ceased to exist as an authoritative message by the time the Quran is revealed... In addition, there is no indication in the Quran that Injeel refers to a revealed book, but rather a revealed message of good news to humanity for the coming of the Messiah to confirm the truth in the Torah. Further, it is worth mentioning that Arabic originated in Nabataean regions that were heavily influenced by Greek Christian teachings. It is then certain that several Greek words were incorporated into Arabic through direct Nabataean influence. We hence see that many foreign words in Arabic of Hebrew/Aramaic origin were not absorbed directly; rather, their Hellenized versions were incorporated. As explained in the Quran 568 Say, "O People of the Scripture! You have no valid ground for your beliefs unless you uphold the Torah and the Gospel and all that has been revealed to you from your Lord." (The Truth in them has been incorporated into the Final Revelation). Yet all that has been revealed to you (O Prophet), by your Lord is bound to make many of them more stubborn in their arrogance and denial of the Truth. But grieve not for the disbelieving folk. 546 And after them We caused Jesus, son of Mary, to follow in their footsteps, confirming the Divine Origin of what was revealed before him. We gave him the Gospel in which there was guidance and a light, and it confirmed the Divine Origin of what was revealed before it in the Torah, a guidance and admonition to those who wished to live upright 275 Do you still hope that they will join your ranks in Faith? Verily, a party among them used to listen to the Word of Allah in the Torah, then, distorted its words and true meanings, after they had understood it. And they knew full well what they were doing! Also, 2101 And now that a Messenger has come unto them from Allah confirming the Truth in what they have, a party among those who were given the Scripture before, cast the Scripture of Allah (the Torah and the Gospel) behind their backs as if they know not. This clearly means that the scriptures were distorted, but the message is still present and can be rediscovered with the Quran. This is especially of significance since the Gospels were originally written in Aramaic, which has a property of words with split meanings that depend on context and idiomatic usage. Many Aramaic words were incorrectly translated into Greek (Aramaic primacy) as a result... This means that along with addition to the original message revealed to Jesus, meanings of several words of the Gospel were taken out of context by the ?Zorba?. A look at an Important Quranic Verse One important element that can lead to confusion is to use the words Tauraat and Injeel as proper nouns. The meanings of these two words have already been discussed, however, if the words are used as proper nouns, then the following verses can easily be distorted to create contradictions 33 He it is Who has sent down this Book to you (O Messenger) in Absolute Truth, confirming the authentic in what He has revealed before. He is the One Who revealed the Torah and the Gospel. 34 He has bestowed Guidance upon mankind before, and now He has sent the Final Criterion between the Right and the Wrong. Those who reject the Revelations of Allah, theirs will be a strict retribution. Allah Almighty?s Law of Cause and Effect carries all things and actions to their logical outcome. It was already discussed that the Torah was written out of several manuscripts in 500 BC. As well, if Injeel was revealed to Jesus, why is this name derived from Greek? Contradictions can clearly be observed in the above rendition, which means that this may not be the correct translation. As an experiment, the word Teaching or Law can be substituted for Torah, and Good News for the Gospel. It seems only logical that Arabic speaking Jews and Christians used these words in this context. Hence the following translation can be derived 33 He it is Who has sent down this Book to you (O Messenger) in Absolute Truth, confirming the authentic in what He has revealed before. He is the One Who revealed the Law/Teachings (to the children of Isaac/Ezra) and the Good News (to Jesus). 34 He has bestowed Guidance upon mankind before, and now He has sent the Final Criterion between the Right and the Wrong. Those who reject the Revelations of Allah, theirs will be a strict retribution. Allah Almighty?s Law of Cause and Effect carries all things and actions to their logical outcome. It can be observed that this is how the readers would have understood the above verses 1400 years ago, and not how they are translated today. It is extremely unfortunate that erroneous translations by Persian Imams (whether intentional or not) have resulted in numerous contradictions in the Quran. These renditions have remained with the message since the Abbaside dynasty, and have been absorbed in Islamic teaching to such an extent that the public at large does not give these names a second thought. Synopsis Based on the preceding discussion, a few conclusions can be derived Revelations were not all in the form of a book. Zabur and Injeel are not revealed books. Torah was not revealed to Moses. It is a collection of various manuscripts... David of the Quran may not be a prophet, but a person of a great legacy. The gist of the message is preserved in what are derived from the original pre-Quranic scriptures, but not the scriptures themselves. Quran could not have been revealed until after the advent of Euanggelion and Torah, and if a non-biased projection is made, at least few hundred years after Euanggelion/Injeel. This seems the likely time for the arrival of the exalted prophet Muhammad. So now when you read where Tauraat, Zabur and Injeel are spoken of in the Quran, try to keep the above points in mind, and lo and behold, the confused image of Islam created by the Mullah will untangle right before your eyes... References Ahmad, Shabbir. Quran as It Explains Itself, 2nd Ed. Galaxy Publications, USA, 2005 Armstrong, Karen. A History of God, Ballantine Books, USA, 1994 Korotayev, Andrey. Ancient Yamen, Oxford University Press, UK, 2005 Gibson, Dan. Nabataean Culture, www.nabataea.net, 2005 Lataster, Raphael. Pashetta and Aramaic Primacy, www.aramaicpeshitta.com, 2006 Patai, Raphael. Hebrew Myths, Cassel Publications, UK, 1964

Peace all, I recently saw this documentary on Discovery civilisations...It was very interesting but the conclusions of one major participant in the research was a tad illogical. I'm hoping anyone having seen the documentary or knowing about it would care to discuss the points presented therein... Basically, it's about the bodies of around a 100 infants found under a bath house(in a sewer) in the roman town of Ashkelon. The prime points are that according to forensic and dna testing these were newborn babies and that they had a ratio of more males than females, ruling female infanticide out...but having only 19 cases of successful extraction of dna might play a part in the ratio of the overall males to females as the normal ratio is 20 males to 21 females or around 11 in a more general case...or maybe even... more males died than females... Here is a link to an informative article http//www.he.net/~archaeol/9703/newsbriefs/ashkelon.html I agree that the most likely scenario is that the bathhouse doubled as a brothel and these were illegitimate children of the prostitutes whose remains were found...but as the article observes Based on ancient sources, historian John M. Riddle of North Carolina State University raises additional questions about the new interpretation. "The literary evidence--classical, medieval, and early modern--is virtually united in claiming that prostitutes knew what to do to prevent full-term pregnancies," he notes. "Why would prostitutes at Ashkelon be different?" A variety of contraceptive methods and abortifacients was used in the classical world (see ARCHAEOLOGY, March/April 1994). Among the church fathers, Jerome (348-420) condemned the use of potions that cause "sterility and murder those not yet conceived," while Augustine of Hippo (354-430) held that as long as the fetus was no more than "some sort of living, shapeless thing" homicide laws did not apply because it had no senses and no soul. Riddle also says that after the first century A.D. the value of slaves increased to the point that unwanted babies could be and were sold to dealers. Neither of the proposed explanations--female infanticide or discarding of unwanted children by prostitutes--seems to match the evidence. This is quite logical...the documentary suggests in addition to the article that maybe these were stillborn babies or babies dying right after their birth that were put here...which is another logical explanation and one which fits more than any other explanation put forth so far...when confronted with this, patricia smith (the forensic expert) said in the documentary to my best recollection something to the effect of, it doesn't make sense because these are newborn babies and she basically feels that it's some form of infanticide still. I disagree with her opinion as i think based on the evidence and explanations so far, the stillbirth/early death seems to fit in best... Would love to hear more opinions/discussion. Nadia

http//english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/45259C6F-C131-4BFD-B69A-73E25C910E46.htm Very interesting article. Matthew, Matthew, Matthew, Matthew...who? Kind of rude not to leave us your surname Matthew!

Whangarei man plans expedition for Noah's Ark Whangarei man plans expedition for Noah's Ark 17 August 2004 A Northland man is spearheading an expedition to prove Noah's Ark exists, and that it lies about 2000 metres above sea level in Turkey. Computer programmer Ross Patterson, of Whangarei, is convinced that a mound of earth about 12km from Mt Ararat in Turkey contains the remains of the Biblical Noah's Ark. The Bible says Noah was commanded by God to build the ark and herd two specimens of all animal life into it before a great flood which lasted 40 days and 40 nights. Mr Patterson, a devout Christian, said today there was strong evidence that the events depicted in the Bible occurred. He had visited the site, almost 2000m above sea level, twice and said a need to prove the theory and the associated religious implications had taken over his life. Together with two other Northlanders, Geoff McColl and Des Palamountain, he is fundraising to revisit the site before the end of October, the end of the northern summer. The expedition hopes to add weight to earlier research by controversial American author, the late Ron Wyatt. Mr Wyatt's research revealed petrified timber and rivets made of iron under the surface of the mound. A radar scan of the site also showed that structures resembling bulkheads existed under the surface. Large stones found at nearby villages also resembled drogue or anchor stones, Mr Patterson said. The mound also matched measurements of the ark described in the Bible and a drilling operation revealed animal hair deep inside the mound. The Turkish Government had since acknowledged the site, Mr Patterson said. "What we intend to do ... is to place a small camera into the hole to see if there are any man-made structures under there," he said. Any evidence pointing to man-made structures beneath the surface would add credibility to Mr Wyatt's research, he said. If the expedition did not shed any light on the subject then those on the team would be the first to accept it. "People can make up their own minds. The public are a jury. Our job is to present the evidence and the case. They make up their own minds. It's like in court; you have to prove things beyond reasonable doubt," Mr Patterson said. "We expect to find something but, if we don't find something, we have to be fair. " New Zealand Skeptics Association spokesman Dennis Dutton was critical of the expedition. He said the great flood legend was older than the Old Testament itself. It went back to a pre-Homeric epic originating from the ancient civilisation of Mesopotamia.

Peace All Keep in mind that history, apart from a more similar field of archeology, is usually based on hearsay. Take care. Joe

peace all, After watching the highly interesting BBC programme called 'Noah's Ark', I would like to share the following points, from the programme The hebrew word for land/country/earth is one word, so the flood described in genesis may not mean a universal one. The Babylonians actually wrote about the story of Noah (although I think they called it something else) pre-genesis. (stone tablets found in Iraq) The Babylonian story ends up with 'Noah' in the island now called Bahrain. It was implied the priests who wrote genesis may have seen the message of that story and embellished upon it and included it in their writings. They showed the plausibility of the story in genesis is weak. No strong evidence for an ark in Mount Ararat. http//news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/magazine/3524676.stm The link makes interesting reading. Wakas

Peace, Do you think that current Egypt and the monuments attributed to pharaonic civilization correspond to Egypt and Pharaoh quoted in Coran? Peace Marie