Archeology & History

Peace What occult system believes in the soul passing into other people? I'm not familiar with this among occult circles. Joe I do not know of any occult systems that deal with that subject but I do know that this is a subject often mentioned in Channeled writings. Google the term "Walk-ins", also check out this link http//infinity.usanethosting.com/Heart.Of.God/Hilarion/speq02.html#Walk-Ins peace, Khalil

Peace JM, all, Following is quoted from The Catholic Encyclopedia and may be pertinent to this thread. It shows how the Old Testament may be moved geographically from Egypt and Canaan to North Arabia. The quote is from the following link http//www.newadvent.org/cathen/01663a.htm "MODERN EXPLORATIONS OF ARABIA Up to a century and a half ago our information concerning Arabia was based mainly on Greek and Latin writers, such as Herodotus, Strabo, Pliny, Ptolemy, and others. This was meagre and unsatisfactory. The references to Arabia found in the Old Testament were even more so. Hence our best sources of information are Arabic writers and geographers, such as Hamadani's "Arabian Peninsula," Bekri and Yaqut's geographical and historical dictionaries, and similar works. These, although extremely valuable, contain fabulous and legendary traditions, partly based on native popular legends and partly on Jewish and rabbinical fancies. The cuneiform inscriptions of Assyria have also thrown great and unexpected light on the early history of Arabia. But above all, mention must be made of the researches and discoveries of scholars like Hal?vy, Mueller, Glaser, Hommel, Winckler, and others. The first European scientific explorer of Arabia was C. Niebuhr, who, in 1761-64, by the order of the Danish government, undertook an expedition into the Arabian peninsula. He was followed, in 1799, by Reinaud, the English agent of the East India Company. The Russian scholar U.J. Seetzen undertook a similar expedition in 1808-11, and for the first time copied several South-Arabian inscriptions in the district of Himyar. In 1814-16, J.L. Burckhardt, a Swiss, and probably the most distinguished of Arabian explorers, made a journey to Hijaz and completed the pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina. Burckhardt's information is copious, interesting, and accurate. Captain W.R. Wellsted made (in 1834-35) a journey into Oman and Hadramaut; and Ch. J. Cruttenden completed, in 1838, a similar journey from Mokha to Sana, copying several South-Arabian inscriptions, which R?diger and Gesenius attempted to decipher. Then came the German, Adolf von Wrede, who, in 1843, visited Wady Doan and other parts of Hadramaut, discovering and copying an important inscription of five long lines. In 1843 Thomas Joseph Arnaud made a very bold and successful journey from Sana to Marib, the capital of the ancient kingdom of the Sabeans, and collected about fifty-six inscriptions. In 1845-48, G. Wallin travelled through Hayil, Medina, and Taima, proceeding from west to east. In 1853 Richard Burton, the famous translator of the "Arabian Nights," undertook a pilgrimage to Mecca and Medina, and, in 1877 and 1878, twice visited the land of Midian, in North Arabia. In 1861 a Jew from Jerusalem, Jacob Saphir, visited Yemen, where he found several Jewish settlements, and other parts of Arabia; while in 1862-63, the English ex-Jesuit, W. Gifford Palgrave, made his memorable tour from the Dead Sea to Qatif and Oman, visiting the great north-western territory between the Sinaitic peninsula, the Euphrates, Hayil, Medina, Nejd, and practically the whole of central Arabia, till then unknown to scholars and travellers. Colonel Pelly visited central Arabia in 1865, and in 1869 Joseph Hal?vy, the great French Orientalist and the pioneer of Sabean philology, in the guise of a poor Jew from Jerusalem, explored Yemen and south Arabia, copying about 700, mostly very short, inscriptions. He advanced as far as the South-Arabian Jof, the territory of the ancient Mineans. In 1870-71, H. von Maltzan made a few short trips from Aden along the coast, and in 1876-78 Charles Doughty made his famous tour to Mada in Salih, Havil, Taima, Khaibar, Boraida, Onaiza, and Tayif, where he discovered several Nabataean, Lihyanian, or Tamudic, Minean and so-called proto-Arabic inscriptions. In 1877-80 the Italian Renzo Manzoni made three excursions to Sana, the Turkish capital of Yemen. In 1878-79, Lady Anne Blunt, Lord Byron's granddaughter, together with her husband, Sir Wilfrid Scawen Blunt, made a tour from Damascus through the North-Arabian Jof, the Nefud desert, and Hayil. In the years 1882-84 the Austrian explorer, Edward Glaser, made his first and very fruitful expedition to southern Arabia, where he discovered and copied numerous old Arabian inscriptions, and in 1883-84 Charles Huber together with Julius Euting, the Semitic epigraphist of Strasburg, undertook a joint expedition to northern Arabia, discovering the famous Aramaic inscriptions of Taima (sixth century B.C.). In 1885, Ed. Glaser made his second journey to southern Arabia collecting several Minean inscriptions; and in 1887-88 made his third expedition, which proved to be the most successful expedition yet undertaken, as far as epigraphical results are concerned. The inscriptions discovered and copied were over 400, the most valuable among them being the so-called "Dam-inscription," of 100 lines (fifth and sixth centuries of the Christian Era), and the "Sirwah inscription," of about 1,000 words (c. 550 B.C.). His fourth expedition took place in 1892-94, and was fruitful and rich in Arabic epigraphy. Leo Hirsch, of Berlin, visited, in 1893, Hadramaut, and so did Theodore Bent and his wife in 1893-94. In 1896-97, the distinguished Arabic scholar, Count Carlo Landberg, visited the coast of South Arabia, making special studies of the modern Arabic dialects of those regions, besides other geographical and epigraphical researches. In 1898-99 the expedition of the Vienna Academy to Shabwa was organized and conducted by Count Landberg and D. H. Mueller which, however, owing to several difficulties and disagreements, did not accomplish the desired results. Other expeditions have since engaged in the active work of exploration. The results of all these expeditions have been threefold geographical, epigraphical, and historical. These results have opened the way not only to fresh views and studies concerning the various ancient South-Arabian dialects, such as Minean, Sabean, or Himyarite, Hadramautic, and Katabanian, but have also shed unexpected light on the history of the old South-Arabian kingdoms and dynasties. These same discoveries have also thrown considerable light on Old Testament history on early Hebrew religion and worship, and on Hebrew and comparative Semitic philology. ARABIA AND THE OLD TESTAMENT The Old Testament references to Arabia are scanty. The term Arab itself, as the name of a particular country and nation, is found only in later Old Testament writings, i.e. not earlier than Jeremias (sixth century B.C.). In older writings the term Arab is used only as an appellative, meaning "desert," or "people of the desert," or "nomad" in general. The name for Arabia in the earliest Old Testament writings is either Ismael, or Madian (A.V., Ishmael, or Midian) as in the twenty-fifth chapter of Genesis, which is a significant indication of the relative antiquity of that remarkable chapter. The meaning of the term Arab can be either that of "Nomad," or "the Land of the Setting Sun," i.e. the West, it being situated to the west of Babylonia, which was considered to be the Biblical record of Gen., xi, as the traditional starting point of the earliest Semitic migrations. By the ancient Hebrews, however, the land of Arabia was called "the Country of the East," and the Arabs were termed "Children of the East," as the Arabian peninsula lay to the east of Palestine. According to the genealogical table of the tenth chapter of Genesis, Cham's (A.V., Ham) first-born was Chush. Chush (A.V., Cush) had five sons whose names are identical with several regions in Arabia. Thus the name of Sebha ? probably the same as Sheba, or Saba ? situated on the west coast of the Red Sea, occurs only three times in the Old Testament. The second is Hevila in northern Arabia, or as Glaser prefers in the district of Yemen and al-Kasim. The third is Regma (A.V., Raamah) in south-western Arabia, mentioned in the Sabean inscriptions. The fourth is Sabatacha, in southern Arabia, and as far east as Oman. The fifth is Sabatha (A.V., Sabtah), or better Sabata, the ancient capital of Hadramaut, in South Arabia. Regma's two sons, Saba and Dadan (A.V., Sheba and Dedan), or Daidan, are also two Arabian geographical names, the first being the famous Saba (A.V., Sheba) of the Book of Kings, whose Queen visited Solomon, while the second is near Edom or, as Glaser suggests, north of Medina. In v. 28 of the same Genesiac chapter, Saba is said to be a son of Jectan (A.V., Joktan), and so, also, Elmodad, Asarmoth, Hevila, Ophir (A.V., Almodad, Hazarmaveth, Havilah, etc., which are equally Arabian geographical names), while in chapter xxv, 3, both Saba and Dadan are represented as grandsons of Abraham. The episode of Sarai's handmaid, Agar (A.V., Hagar), and her son, Ismael (A.V., Ishmael), is well known. According to this, Ismael is the real ancestor of the majority of Arabian tribes, such as Nabajoth, Cedar, Abdeel, Mabsam, Masma, Duma, Massa, Hadar, Thema, Jethur, and Cedma (A.V., Nebaijoth, Kedar, Abdeel, Mibsam, Mishma, Dumah, Massa, Hadar, Tema, Jetur, Naphish, and Kedemah, respectively). Equally well known are the stories of the Madianite, or Ismaelite, merchants who bought Joseph from his brethren, that of the forty years' wandering of the Hebrew tribes over the desert of Arabia, of the Queen of Saba, etc. In later Old Testament times we read of Nehemias (A.V., Nehemiah), who suffered much from the enmity of an Arab sheikh, Gossem (A.V., Geshem), or better Gashmu or Gushamu , and he also enumerates the Arabs in the list of his opponents (iv, 7). In II Paralipomenon (A.V., Chronicles) we are told (xvii, 11) that the Arabians brought tribute to King Josaphat (A.V., Jehoshaphat). The same chronicler tells us, also, how God punished the wicked Joram by means of the Philistines and the Arabians, who were beside the Ethiopians (2 Chronicles 2116), and how he helped the pious Ozias (A.V., Uzziah) in the war against the "Arabians that dwelt in Gurbaal" (xxvi, 7). The Arabians mentioned here are in all probability the Nabataeans of northern Arabia; as our author wrote in the second or third century B.C. THE NORTH-ARABIAN MUSRI AND THE OLD TESTAMENT The cuneiform inscriptions of Assyria have thrown considerable light on various geographical localities in North Arabia, having important bearing on the history of the ancient Hebrews and on the critical study of the Old Testament. The importance of these new facts and researches has of late assumed very bewildering proportions, the credit for which unmistakably belongs to Winckler, Hommel, and Cheyne. It is needless to say that however ingenious these hypotheses may appear to be they are not as yet entitled to be received without caution and hesitation. Were we to believe, in fact, the elaborate theories of these eminent scholars, a great part of the historical events of the Old Testament should be transferred from Egypt and Chanaan into Arabia; for, according to the latest speculations of these scholars, many of the passages in the Old Testament which, until recently, were supposed to refer to Egypt (in Hebrew, Misraim) and to Ethiopia (in Hebrew, Kush) do not really apply to them but to two regions of similar names in North Arabia, called in the Assyro-Babylonian inscriptions Musri, or Musrim, and Chush, respectively. They hold that partly by means of editorial manipulation and partly by reason of corruption in the text, and in consequence of the faded memory of long-forgotten events and countries, these two archaic North-Arabian geographical names became transformed into names of similar sound, but better known, belonging to a different geographical area namely, the Egyptian Misraim and the African Chush, or Ethiopia. According to this theory, Agar, Sarai's handmaid (Gen. XVI, 1) was not Misrite or Egyptian, but Musrite, i.e. from Musri, in northern Arabia. Abraham (Genesis 1210) did not go down into Misraim, or Egypt, where he is said to have received from the Pharaoh a gift of men-servants and handmaids, but into Misrim, or Musri, in northern Arabia. Joseph, when bought by the Ismaelites, or Madianites, i.e. Arabs, was not brought into Egypt (Misraim), but to Musri, or Misrim, in north Arabia, which was the home of the Madianites. In I Kings (A.V., I Sam.), xxx, 13, we should not read "I am a young man of Egypt , slave of an Amalecite," but of Musri in north Arabia. In III Kings (A.V. I K.) iii, 1; xi, 1, Solomon is said to have married the daughter of an Egyptian king, which is extremely improbable; for Misrim in north Arabia, and not the Egyptian Misraim, is the country whose king's daughter Solomon married. In I Kings (A.V., I Sam.) iv, 30, the wisdom of Solomon is compared to the "wisdom of all the children of the east country and all the wisdom of Egypt." But the last-mentioned country, they say, is not Egypt but, as the parallelism requires, Madian, or Musri, whose proverbial wisdom is frequently alluded to in the Old Testament. In III Kings, x, 28 sq., horses are said to have been brought from Egypt but horses were very scarce in Egypt, while very numerOus and famous in Arabia. The same emendation can be made in at least a dozen more Old Testament passages. The most revolutionary result, however, would follow if we applied the same theory to the famous sojourn of the Hebrews in Egypt; for it is self-evident that if the Israelites sojourned not in the Egyptian Misraim, but in the north Arabian Musri, and from thence fled into Chanaan, which was nearby, the result to ancient Hebrew history and religion would be of the most revolutionary character. Similar emendation has been applied with more or less success to the many passages where Chush, or Ethiopia, occurs, such as Gen, ii, 13; x, 6; Num., xii, 1; Judges, iii, 10; II Kings (A.V. II Sam.), xviii, 21; Isa. xx, 3; xlv, 14; Hab., iii, 7; Ps., lxxxvi, 4; II Par. (A.V., Chron.), xiv, 9; xxi, 16, etc. Another important geographical name frequently mentioned in the Old Testament, and in all instances referred, till recently, to Assyria, is Assur (abbreviated into Sur). A country of similar name has also been discovered in Arabia. In this last view Winckler and Cheyne are warmly supported by Hommel, by whom it was first suggested. Cheyne, furthermore, has pushed these identifications to such extremities as to transplant the whole historical and religious life of Israel to the Nejeb, the country of Jerameel in northern Arabia. According to him the prophets Elias, Eliseus, Amos, Osee (A.V., Hosea), Ezechiel (A.V., Ezekiel), Joel, and Abdias (A.V., Obadiah) are all North Arabians; and all the rest of the prophets either came from that country or have it constantly in view. Isaias (A.V., Isaiah), xl-lv, was, according to him, composed in northern Arabia; Ezechiel also suffered imprisonment and prophesied there; and hundreds of personal and geographical proper names in the Old Testament are, according to him, intentional or accidental corruptions of Jerameel, Arabia, and Nejeb. However great our appreciation of Winckler's and Cheyne's ingenuity and learning may be, and allowing that their theories are not entirely lacking in plausibility, yet they have received, so far, little support and encouragement from the majority of Biblical scholars and critics. It is true that the new theories, in some of their applications, give highly satisfactory results, but in their extreme form they are, to say the least, premature and ultra-radical." Emphasis mine

-What is meant by "the Hour"?? If you look at every verse of the Reading in which "the Hour" ( &#1577 appears, you will find that it always means the Hour of Judgement ( Judgement Day ). Hence, the ( ) of the moon is one of the signs that will herald "the Hour". The Quran uses the present tense sometimes when talking about future events. 541 is just an example of this phenomenon. Here is another The judgment for the people has come near, while they are turning away unaware. I don't see any connection to the tearing of the crescent moon flag of the Byzantine Empire. Hi Pazuzu, This is a great question and I am so thankful you raised it... I am quoting 5441-46 (since 541 is in question) which will provide the answer OurBeacon's rendition 5441 And warnings came indeed to Pharaohs people. 5442 They, too, denied Our Messages, every one. Thereupon We grasped them with the grasp of the Mighty, the Powerful. 5443 Are your deniers better than those others, or do you have some amnesty in the Scriptures? 5444 Or do they say, "We are a group united bound to be victorious? 5445 Yet, all these troops will be routed and will turn back and flee. 5446 Nay, the Hour is the time promised them, and that Hour will be most grievous with a most bitter defeat. Free-minds' rendition 5441 And the warnings had come to the people of Pharaoh. 5442 They rejected all Our signs. So We took them, the taking of the Noble, the Able. 5443 Are your rejecters better than those? Or have you been absolved by the Scripture? 5444 Or do they Say "We are a large group and we will win." 5445 The large group will be defeated; they will turn around and flee. 5446 The Hour is their appointed time, and the Hour is far worse and more painful. 5441-42 - Notice the people are being spoken of, not just the Pharaoh. Egypt - A super power of its time 5443-44 - Who are being spoken of here? Notice the temporal description/tense. It is quite revealing! Someone from the exalted prophet's time? 5445-46 - Large number defeated (??) ... A battle perhaps? Which one? Where? How can we determine this from the Quran itself? Any clues? Perhaps the first verse of the Chapter itself among other places. Right?

Peace Andy, I'm with the 'against' camp. I assume you mean against a global flood and in support of a local one. First, your central premise of a global flood is contradicted by geological evidence The Earth has never experienced a global flood. My argument uses this article Problems with a Global Flood A search on Yahoo will show an equal amount of sites that list geological evidence in support of the flood. Liquefaction is associated with quicksand, earthquakes, and wave action. Liquefaction also played a major role in rapidly sorting sediments, plants, and animals during the flood. Indeed, the global presence of such layers and sorted fossils shows that a global flood occurred. Massive liquefaction has also left other telltale signs such as cross-bedded sandstone, plumes, and mounds. http//www.cs.unc.edu/~plaisted/ce/flood.html That a global event occured however many years ago and wiped out nearly all life on the planet is not in dispute. What is in dispute is what the cause of such an event was (was it a flood, meteor, volcano, mixture of all three, etc.). Also, logic dictates that the mass accumilation of animal and plant life in specific areas of the globle (which turned to oil) is consistent with water sweeping such aniumals & plant and concentrating them is specific deposits. Of course, you may claim it's a miracle and God could've wiped out all the evidence and leave/plant differing evidence so that geologists arrive at the 'wrong' conclusion that there had never been a global flood, but of course that IMO would contradict God's words that say His signs are to be found in nature. Why would I need to claim that? It is the evidence of a sudden mass extinction which has resulted in a linking between the flood event and the archeological and geological evidence...So I would say God left pretty much an abundance of evidence. Also, human fossils are quite plentiful--and were humans around at 65 million years ago, we would've found human fossils and artifacts from that age. But we don't, and instead we only have remains of dinosaurs and early mammals (even monkeys and apes haven't existed at that time!). Your theory MIGHT work, however, if Nuh and his people were not humans/primate species. Although this would be farfetched. I read that only a few thousand dinasour bones have been found intact worldwide and these are the ones displayed in museams. That is a pretty dismal number when you consider the evidence that millions of these creatures walked the Earth at the time of extinction. For this reason I would say finding a human bone which has not turned to dust after so many years is possible, but is also like finding a needle in a global haystack.

Peace Maxq, Thank you for the interesting post. I agree that the curved shape doesn't look like the crescent. The curved shape looks more like a bowl. It is interesting that in Arabic the word "7awd" means bowl or basin and also means pelvis. A derivative word "ma7id" means "menstruation" so this symbol is likely to be a female fertility symbol. Your observation about the hand reaching to catch the newborn deity becomes even more obvious when we see that the new born is coming out between the symbol for the female pelvis. Peace, Ayman

maxq wrote no problem buddy handshake

Very interesting indeed...I'm still reading through it..

And in light of what you have said, the hadith may be bad but it's surely more accurate than the hadith attributed to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John... I hope you are not suggesting we follow the Hadith. There is no such thing as "More Pregnant" or "Less Pregnant"... similarly, if something is wrong, it does not matter how wrong it is... If Hadith shows the exalted prophet as a person praise worthy, and provides accounts of his life that may reflect his character as described in the Quran, but are still fabricated, would you still accept those accounts? Isn't that how people took "little steps" to add more and more conjuncture over the last 1000 years? Perturbation leads to gross errors, especially if not kept in check! This has happened with Hadith and Sunnah... everyone added something from their imagination until the whole picture became distorted!

Salam all those who are taking part in this discussion. The Qur'an is not a History Book it is there to guide those who guard against evil. People are getting an entire history out of a book that is there for guidance, use the Qur'an for guidance and use historical reports for history. The conclusions some people are coming to are really unfounded. Peace, People.

It doesn't end there. The book of Daniel clearly states that he had a dream of a Ram with two horns who would be the saivour of the jews... and indeed it was Cyrus, the king of the two kingdoms who liberated the jews from the babylonians... I have atached an image of a bas-releif engraved with a figure thought to be of Cyrus (Kourosh) discovered at Pasargade... you can clearly see the two horns depicted Hi.. Very nice observation. The word "qarn" in the Quran doesn't actually mean "horn". If you check every single verse that has the word "qarn" (singular) or "quroun" (plural), you will notice that the word can actually mean "people" or "nation(s)". Here are a few examples Did they not see how many nations (peoples) We have destroyed before them? We granted them dominance over the land more than what We granted you, and We sent to them abundant rainfall, and We made rivers flow beneath them; then We destroyed them for their sins, and established after them a new nation (people) Then We established after them (Noah's people) another nation. And We sent a messenger to them from amongst them "Serve God, you have no other god besides Him. Will you not heed?" . Is it not a guide to them how many nations (peoples) We had destroyed before them; and that they now walk in their very homes? In that are signs for those who understand. As yo ucan see, the title of "Zhulqarnayn" can be interpreted as "He of two nations" or, more appropriately, "King of two nations or peoples". In all of history, there can only be one ruler whose description can match these verses. The kings of the Achamenid dynasty of ancient Persia were actually holders of a dual throne. Cyrus ( or "Kurush" ), was originally, the King of the Persians as well as the Medes!! He was king of two distinct nations, each having a culture quite different from the other. The vision of the ram with two horns mentioned in the book of Daniel is in fact a symbolic representation of Cyrus the Great (580 BC - 529 BC ), the liberator of the Jews. ( To this day, the religious Jews rever him ). It's interesting to note that the verses of the subject matter, in the chapter entitled "al-Kahf", begin with the phrase "And they ask you (Muhammad) about Zhulkqarnayn....." If we understand "they" in the verse as meaning the people of the Book (Jews particularly), we can conclude 2 things 1- That Zhulqarnayn was known to the Jews, and was mentioned in their scriptures. 2- The question they were asking the prophet Muhammad was a sort of test to see what he knew about Zhulqarnayn. Therefore, the answer given by the prophet would have to contain proof of his prophecy. This proof would have to be in the form of some information about Zhulqarnayn that even they -the Jews- didn't know; information that would be validated by historical records as well as archeological discoveries.. This understanding of the verses in question rules out the theory that Zhulqarnayn was Alexander the Great , and this for a simple reason Alexander is NOt mentioned anywhere in the old Jewish scriptures, nor did he have any close ties or relations with the Jews. Cyrus, on the other hand, did... It was Cyrus who liberated the Jews from their slavery in Babylon, ended their exile, and allowed them to return home and rebuild their temple (the same temple which would be destroyed again in the year 70 A.D at the hands of Roman Emperor Titus). History is a witness to this fact Alexander conquered to destroy, while Cyrus conquered to liberate. Alexander was a pagan who declared himself the Son of Zeus, and was later made Pharaoh of Egypt. Cyrus was a monotheist and a strict follower of Zoroastrianism, the Religion of Light. It is worth mentioning that Zoroaster (628 BC - 551 BC) lived in around the same period as Cyrus. It was Cyrus who issued the first ever "decree of human rights" known to man. ( only 25 centuries before the United Nations!! ) This declaration can be seen, in text, on an ancient round stone pillar lying in a museum somewhere in England. There is no doubt in my mind, that the "Zhulqarnayn" of the Quran is none other than Cyrus, a prophet/king of the Persians and Medes, and establisher of the first true empire recorded in history. http//www.art-arena.com/cyrus.htm

peace Maybe Abraham was just a legend? As salamu alaykum. Respectfully. jedi Abraham had a father, people talked to him, so he was a real person, he had sons, he died, which means he was human being. Abraham was real. As salamu alaykum.

Possible, except it looks like many of the times the "hittites" are referred to in Genesis, it is a group living in or around Canaan rather than the people from Asia Minor known to us as the "hittites". But there are lots of people groups out there with similar sounding names that have nothing to do with each other.

Salam, Found some hints for "why" The Holy Koran also has thought us in chapter Al-Ah'zab verse 13, that the name of the city was known as Yathrib, Yathrib was a name of a village which a group of Arabs settled in it during the ancient time. Thus history has mentioned that when people of Prophet (Nuh) Noah came out from the ship after the flood, the area became too narrow for them to live, knowing that Abil tribe was also among them, whereas their leader (Yathrib bun Abil) the fourth grandson of Nuh (Noah) abled to build city and then settle in it. Al-Amaleek also has settled in the same city after they sent Abliya tribe away from the city. Indeed, the named Yathrib was well known during the past time. This is because the name Yathrib has been found in an old history writings and designs. In order to reason this claim, we say, the city was mentioned in Ptolemy geography with the name of Yathrib. It has also came in As-Sabi'ah sculptures that, the word (Medinata) which means Aramaic language as ( Himaa) means Hotness. Then it was summarized and then became Al-Madian. Naming the city as Yathrib was not accepted by the Holy Prophet, simply because he insinuated the meaning of the word Yathrib and said the word means (blame and scolding), then he changed the name to Al-Medina. So after he honored the city with his immigration then it came known as Medinatu Rasul (means the city of the messenger) http//www.rafed.net/towns/english/madena.html Another for "when" 630's? The nickname 'Prophet's Town' becomes the effective name of Yathrib, 'Madina an-Nabiy', short 'Madina'. http//lexicorient.com/e.o/madina.htm

Is the history of Advance on Tabuk from Hadith or ??? ...

Very interesting ! Muhammad the great leader. But, is Muhammad's tomb in Medina inside the masjid. Who is the his companions actually such as Umar, Abu Bakar, are they also Jordanions or .... ??

I seen that show on the Discovery Channel also and I was saying to my self they are using the words of Movies and myths concerning the Pharoah of the Exodus from the Biblical point of view that is,because the Bible does not say that Pharoah drowned,it says Pharoahs Army drowned.This makes since,because they Phaoraoh would have sent his army after them into the sea,he would not have went.. Hmmm Thutmose III - 1504 - 1450 BC. His mummy was so badly damaged " that later mummymakers used wooden splints tied to what was left of the body to reinforce it". Also, as Layth mentioned Firoun Thul Awtad means Pharoah of the wooden beams. Could this be referring to the state of the Pharaohs mummy? As mentioned earlier, Thutmose III's mummy was "so badly damaged that later mummymakers used wooden splints tied to what was left of the body to reinforce it." Very interesting indeed,could be the same Pharoah,and its interesting that Moses name in Kemetic was Mss and Thutmoses names was Th't-Mss which is very similar.

First of all the so-called Torah (five books allegedly written by Moses (pbuh) ) are not 'pure' or 100% truthful anymore, cos the Lord (YHVH) has said so to prophet Jeremiah (pbuh) Jer 88 How do ye say 'We are wise, and the Law of the LORD (Torah YHVH - ) is with us'? Lo, certainly in vain hath wrought the vain pen of the scribes. There is another version of "Genesis" and it is called the "Book Of Jasher". Although this book seems to be a secular history / tales book of Adam to Joshua. It contains a story about Abram destroying idols, a debate between Abram and his people on the foolishness of idol worshipping, the trial of Abram and the death sentence by fire. http//www.sacred-texts.com/chr/apo/jasher/ During Joseph's age, the ruler of Egypt was not refered to as "Pharaoh" According to the book of jasher, chapter 14, the origins of Pharaoh came from Rikayon who named "Pharaoh" by then king of Egypt named "Osiris" 27 And the king answered and said to Rikayon, Thy name shall no more be called Rikayon but Pharaoh shall be thy name, since thou didst exact a tax from the dead; and he called his name Pharaoh. Osiris was so much loved by the people of Egypt. After his death, he become idolized thus turned to (one of) the god(s) by the egyptians.. (The pattern of idolizing honorable person (turned to god) after his/her death seems to be recurring isn't it, Osiris, Jesus and so on...) Allah knows best

PEACE Very interesting topic. It's kind of hard to get my head around free will and fatalism. To grasp this concept I always thought of it as though, yes we do have free will, but obviously God is not confined to space and time as we are. So fatalism does exist as far as ONLY with God as he already knows our choices like opening up a book and seeing the ending. But I guess there's more to it looking at this topic. Anyway that was my 2 cent. Keep debating people PEACE

Peace Brother Zlatan The verses of the Quran emphasizes on the belief that the prophet was not from Mecca, but to declare that the prophet was not from Mecca, at this stage without proper study and research, will be a guess and I don't believe in guess work. I have no concrete proof that prophet was not from Mecca, and he migrated from which country However I would like to add some more verses which further solidifies the belief that the prophet was not in Mecca And indeed We have DESTROYED what is AROUND YOU of the towns and We DISPLAYED the SIGNS that they might return 4627 Which towns were around MECCA that were destroyed. The towns of Ad, Thamud, Shuaib, Lut were in JORDAN and they are surely not around MECCA. And 'Ad and Thamud (people)! And INDEED (their destruction) is clearly APPARENT TO YOU from their (ruined) DWELLINGS. Satan made their deeds seem fair unto them and so debarred them from the Way, though they were keen observers. 2938 Is the RUINS of Ad and Thamud people (in JORDAN) clearly VISIBLE to the people of MECCA? Generations before YOU We DESTROYED when they did wrong their Apostles came to them with Clear Signs but they would not believe! Thus do We requite those who sin! Then WE MADE YOU (KHALAA'IF) successors in the land AFTER THEM to see how ye would behave! 1013/14 IS it not GUIDANCE to THOSE who INHERIT the land AFTER its PEOPLE, that had We willed, We would have PUNISHED them for their sins. But We seal up their hearts so that they hear not? 7100 The people of Mecca inherited the land of those who were punished for their sins (A- FA- LAM YAHDI LA- -HUM) Is it not GUIDANCE for THEM how many generations We have DESTROYED before THEM, in WHOSE DWELLINGS THEY WALK? Certainly, in this are signs for men who have intelligence. 20128 ('A- WA- LAM YAHDI LA- -HUM) Is it not GUIDANCE for THEM, how many generations We have DESTROYED before THEM in WHOSE DWELLINGS THEY WALK? Certainly, therein indeed are signs. Would they not then listen? '(A- WA- LAM YARAW) Have they not seen how We drive water (rain clouds) to the dry land without any vegetation, and therewith bring forth crops providing food for their cattle and themselves? Will they not then see? 3226/27 Were the people of Mecca walking in the dwellings of Ad, Thamud, Shuaib,and Lut, which are in Jordan? And warn (O Muhammad SAW) mankind of the Day when the torment will come unto them; then the wrong-doers will say "Our Lord! Respite us for a little while, we will answer Your Call and follow the Messengers!" (It will be said) "Had you not sworn afore time that you would suffer no decline "And YOU DWELL IN THE DWELLINGS OF MEN who WRONGED THEMSELVES, and SHOWN TO YOU clearly how WE HAD DEALT WITH THEM. And We put forth (many) parables for you." 1444/45 Were the people of Mecca dwelling in the dwellings of those people who wronged themselves and were shown how Allah dealt with them? THEN SEE how was the end of their plot! Verily! We destroyed them and their nation, all together. THESE ARE THEIR HOUSES in UTTER RUIN, for they did WRONG. Verily IN THIS is indeed an Ayah (a lesson or a sign) for people who know. 2752 What do we understand when Allah says to the people of Mecca "THESE ARE THEIR HOUSES in UTTER RUIN" So also was Lut among those sent (by us). Behold We delivered him and his adherents all Except an old woman who was among those who lagged behind Then We destroyed the rest. And truly ye CERTAINLY PASS BY (the ruin of) THEM in the MORNING and at NIGHT will you not understand? 37133/134/135/136/137138 How were the people of Mecca able to pass the city of JORDAN, in the morning and at night? And INDEED THEY have PASSED BY THE TOWN on which was rained the evil rain. DID THEY (disbelievers) NOT THEN SEE IT (with their own eyes)? Nay! But they used not to expect for any resurrection. and when THEY see you (O Muhammad SAW), they treat you only as a mockery (saying)"Is this the one whom Allah has sent as a Messenger? 2540 Allah confirms that the people of Mecca have passed by the town of Lut and seen the destruction. THE UNTRODDEN LAND OF (MECCA) And He caused you to INHERIT THEIR LANDS, and their HOUSES, and their RICHES, and a LAND, which YOU had NOT TRODDEN it. And Allah is Able to do all things. 3327 Which part of the land did the prophet before this war, not tread? Mecca or Madina? VERSE 4103 MY INTERPRETATION Then when you performed / complied / fulfilled the COMMITMENTS (duties of fighting), REMEMBER Allah, standing and sitting and lying on your sides. Then when ye are secure, execute the COMMITMENTS (scheduled remembrance and glorifications of Allah) Verily the COMMITMENTS (scheduled remembrance and glorifications of Allah) are prescribed unto the believers at definite times. 4103 FA- 'IDHAA IT.MA'NANTUM = Then when ye are SECURE It means that conditions before this were not PEACEFUL but HOSTILE; therefore IF the prayers are to be shortened, THEN it has to be in HOSTILE conditions and SUBJECT to PERSECUTION and not in ORDINARY TRAVEL as the Muslims practice. The difference between my understandings and yours is slightly different. You have interpreted the SECOND SALAAT of the verse 103 as commitment of fighting, whereas I interpreted as remembrance of Allah. There are three SALAAT in the verse, the first one is in hostile conditions and the second one is in peaceful conditions and the third one is one of the definitions of Salaat. If the first SALAAT is interpreted as commitment of fighting, then the second and third SALAAT should also be interpreted as commitment of fighting and not remembrance of Allah, as I interpreted. Your understanding has a valid point and Inshaallah I will research on this new interpretation. Thanks Zlatan

We don't have any belongings and even if we did, it is very difficult if not impossible to trace them specifically to the prophet. Moreover, what purpose would such a study accomplish? Nothing. Salaam, My "blessed" ancestors may have done a little of "religion building" themselves. The implications, opportunities to learn are endless. It should expose the lies at least. http//www.turkishembassy.org/traveltourism/sacredrelics.htm Some photos, not very good I am afraid with statements of questionable monotheism http//www.dinvekitap.com/Kutsal_Emanetler/Kutsal_Emanetler.asp You can make out a strain of hair in the centre http//www.geocities.com/hicaz2001/sakaliserif4.jpg