Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

the_seeker

Salaam

I see; Ayman is looking for any excuse to compete with God, and establish a religion based on his gibberish, where he does not need God's permisson or even God, or any authority, except his own arrogant desire to prove himself right.
I had the experience of debating with him on the subject of Hot/Ramadan and I was able to see clearly that he constantly ignored verses from the Quran and kept asking irrelevant questions, taking the discussion back and forth until people got fed up and left the thread, knowing that many people do not have the desire or patience to read the full discussion and often see the bottom line. His cronies finish off by backing him blindly, giving the impression that they won the argument. Sadly most valid proofs are buried in his desire to distort the system.

peace all,

Hasty generalizations like the one above could be the reasons why people left the thread (or other threads for this matter).

1 - Can we consider the desire to verify information as "asking irrelevant questions or taking the discussion back and forth?"

2 - Those who are knowledgeable & want to share information are expected to give out information that has solid backing from the Quran. Sure most brothers & sisters lack the time to read through all the thread; that is why we have to answer questions in a straightforward manner.

3 - Who are Ayman's cronies? Do they exist? If they do, then they are responsible for their own souls. I don't believe that this forum is about who wins the arguments; but that this is a place to verify information insha allah. Proofs not personalities should be the criteria at the end of the day.

peace.

ramon O0

the_seeker

Peace.
Q#1. What is the benefit of discovering Code 19?
to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture)
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful
7431

Peace

peace all

again, does this verse refer to Code 19? please see Samia's earlier post.

brothers & sisters, the clarification of this verse will really aid us in our journey to understanding if the code exists or not all. ignore the names/pen names posting on the thread & just read through the posts. does this verse (and similar others) refer to code 19?

again, proofs not personalities...though insha allah i will be able to know more of you.

peace. ramon O0

Samia

Salam Samia
I am not expert in this srea and let it with you and other friends. I have asked for help here and appreciate anybody can assist.
Peace.

Salaam Bahman

You should at least be familiar with the way the qur'aan is written and not compare it with how the language is written or used today. You read Farsi, so this should not escape you. And as I said, meaning does not matter when you are busy calculating words and letters, otherwise, the whole base for the code (7431) is completely off point.

If the meaning is same then i think code 19 tool assit us to fix it in he way that code accept to remove any change in case is happened.

Now the code is aimed at fixing the qur'aan's mistakes. Based on what criterea? The number 19. How you reached this number? Through calculating letters in the qur'aan! Can you see the circular argument?

submission'org is using Seen too and should be seen this word is very common in farsi with same meaninig and we use Seen. I remeber this word had been pondered many times

No. Submission.org is using a Seen and a Saad, just as used in the qur'aan. If they "fix" them and make them both Seen's, a great part of the calculations will collapse.

anthonywallace

A few questions Can someone answer these questions?

Did God give rashid abundant wealth?
Did he have children?
Did God make everything comfortable for him?
Did he turn greedy and want that God give him more?
If so, then he was stuborn of Gods revelations.
Did he say " This is nothing but fabrication of old.This is nothing but the words of a human being."
If so, then he will be cast into the scorching heat.
And do you know what is the scorching heat? Il tell you over the scorching heat is 19. ( ? 19 gaurdians of the Fire ?)
Was he of those who salated?
Did he feed the poor person?
Did he used to participate with those who spoke falshood?
Did he deny the day of judgment. Untill the certainty came to him. ? If so then why did he turn away from being reminded?
Does the number 19 miricle create a seperate scripture!

anthonywallace

There was a sing for you in the two groups that met. One was fighting in the cause of God, and the other was rejecting.

afridi220

A few questions Can someone answer these questions?

Did God give rashid abundant wealth?
Did he have children?
Did God make everything comfortable for him?
Did he turn greedy and want that God give him more?
If so, then he was stuborn of Gods revelations.
Did he say " This is nothing but fabrication of old.This is nothing but the words of a human being."
If so, then he will be cast into the scorching heat.
And do you know what is the scorching heat? Il tell you over the scorching heat is 19. ( ? 19 gaurdians of the Fire ?)
Was he of those who salated?
Did he feed the poor person?
Did he used to participate with those who spoke falshood?
Did he deny the day of judgment. Untill the certainty came to him. ? If so then why did he turn away from being reminded?
Does the number 19 miricle create a seperate scripture!

He said two ayat were added while God said.

{Surely, We have revealed the Reminder and We will most surely be its guardian.} (Al-Hijr 159)

And if you are in doubt as to that which We have revealed to Our servant, then produce a chapter like it (min mithlihi) and call on your witnesses besides Allah if you are truthful. But if you do (it) not and never shall you do (it), then be on your guard against the fire of which men and stones are the fuel; it is prepared for the unbelievers. S. 223-24

Or do they say He has forged it? Say Then bring a chapter like this (mithlihi) and invite whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 1038

Or, do they say He has forged it. Say Then bring ten forged chapters like it (mithlihi) and call upon whom you can besides Allah, if you are truthful. S. 1113

Say If men and jinn should combine together to bring the like of this Quran (bimithlihi hatha al-Qurani), they could not bring the like of it, though some of them were aiders of others. S. 1788

Or do they say He has forged it. Nay! they do not believe. Then let them bring an announcement like it (mithlihi) if they are truthful. S. 5233-34

muscle

farida

We are only to fight in self-defense those who attack us first

2190 And fight in the cause of the god against those who fight you and do not commit agression, the god does not like the aggressors.

Peace,

Ayman

If fighting is only allowed in self defence then what about the verse below where the strong are asked to help the weak and opressed
475 Why should you not fight in the cause of GOD when weak men, women, and children are imploring "Our Lord, deliver us from this community whose people are oppressive, and be You our Lord and Master

IronSky

Peace to all,

I agree farida, fighting is allowed in those circu,stances also, but it is still basically self defense, just that your defending the weak ones against the strong oppressors, and God does not love the oppressors, and I think theres also a verse that says oppression is worse than slaughter. SO I believe its allowed to fight for others that cant defend themselves, which none of us do by the way.

Kurt

farida

Peace to all,

I agree farida, fighting is allowed in those circu,stances also, but it is still basically self defense, just that your defending the weak ones against the strong oppressors, and God does not love the oppressors, and I think theres also a verse that says oppression is worse than slaughter. SO I believe its allowed to fight for others that cant defend themselves, which none of us do by the way.

Kurt

Exactly!! Oppression is worse than slaughter and if you do not stand up for the cause of Allah and fight against it, because you are worried that you too may be harmed then you are helping to spread corruption and committing shirk as you have given into tyranny
476 Those who believe are fighting for the cause of GOD, while those who disbelieve are fighting for the cause of tyranny. Therefore, you shall fight the devil's allies; the devil's power is nil.
However if you remember that you as an individual have a responsibilty and that GOD is much more powerful, much more effective and HE will neutralize the power of the oppressor than world will be a safer place for everyone
484 You shall fight for the cause of GOD; you are responsible only for your own soul, and exhort the believers to do the same. GOD will neutralize the power of those who disbelieve. GOD is much more powerful, and much more effective
.

Edip_Yuksel

A few questions Can someone answer these questions?

Did God give rashid abundant wealth?
Did he have children?
....

A futile attempt to attack Rashad. Anthony tries to hurl some mud through his questions yet the direction of the mud is based on getting the Quranic chronology of the description backwards. In other words, his questions are having a silly ride on a boomerang. I am not sure whether he does it deliberately or by ignorance, his prejudice and lack of appreciation of "one of the greatest" signs is obvious from his expressed intention.

According to the Quran, the prototypical unappreciative challenger rejected the divine nature of the Quran and THEN he was subjected to the 19, not the other way around. So, Anthony might wish to twist the facts, but Rashad does not fit this description. He changed his mind after the discovery of the 19 and after witnessing its great paradigm changing message.

With the advent of the fulfillment of the prophecy in 1974, we are all described by verse 7431. So, the question is which group do we belong to?

The hypocrites and unappreciative people who will fall into a fitna (trial, torturing test) by not comprehending the role of 19 and ask "What God means by this?"
Those whose acknowledgment increases by witnessing the great prophecy containing an extraordinary philosophical evidence/proof for the divinity of the Quran and its protection with an embedded mathematical design.
The Christians and Jews whose doubts about the authenticity of the Quran is removed through the number 19.

Yes, which of the three groups above do we belong to?

Peace,
Edip

AlFajr

Peace all,
941 Mobilize in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew

We do not know where to Mobilize and we have no gear that I am aware of? Could it mean joining the army of those being oppressed?

ayman

Peace Ramon, everyone,

brothers & sisters, the clarification of this verse will really aid us in our journey to understanding if the code exists or not all. ignore the names/pen names posting on the thread & just read through the posts. does this verse (and similar others) refer to code 19?

I completely agree with you. The key passage that Code 19 is founded on is 7431. It is not surprising that Khalifa grossly mistranslates this passage as we see below

KHALIFA We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)
(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

Khalifa mistranslates 7431 to make it appear as if "the number" is the reason why "the people of the book are convinced, the faith of the faithful is strengthened, etc.". Instead, the real reason is not ?the number? but it is that they see that "their count is only a trial/temptation for the unappreciative". Even Edip himself corrected Khalifa?s gross mistranslation. Please compare Khalifa?s distorted cause (underlined) and effect (bold) relationship with the correct cause and effect in Edip?s own translation during our earlier debate and all the translations below

EDIP We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we made their number to be ONLY A TRIAL/PUNISHMENT for the unappreciative
(1) to convince those who received the book,
(2) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(3) to remove doubts from the hearts of those who received the book, as well as the believers, and
(4) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

YUSUFALI And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number ONLY AS A TRIAL for unbelievers,- in order that
(1) the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and
(2) the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that
(3) no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that
(4) those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?"
Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.

LAYTH 7431. And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number EXCEPT AS A TRIAL for those who have rejected, so that
(1) those who were given the Scripture would understand, and
(2) those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that
(3) those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that
(4) those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

Finally, my own translation

AYMAN 7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions of the fire except controllers; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA"/TRIAL/TEMPTATION for those who have been unappreciative so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, and
(2) those who had faith increase in faith and
(3) those who were given the book and those who had faith do not have doubt. And,
(4) so that those in whose hearts there is sickness and the rejecters say "What did the god want with this example?"
Like this the god misguides whom he wills and guides whom he wills. And none knows your lord's soldiers except him. And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.

I hope that it is clear by now as we can see from the attitudes of those who are attracted to Code 19 that the count of 19 is ONLY an attractive temptation for those who have been unappreciative, nothing more, nothing less. For example, it is a temptation for those who deep inside don?t really appreciate the great reading and therefore need some kind of ?a code? to believe in.

This is why Edip made an excellent choice for the title of the debate, ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign?. By selecting this title, he has already cornered himself and planted the seed for the self-destruction of Code 19 in the eyes of all those who forgo Khalifa's translation and reread 7431 and believe in it.

I think that many people here expressed doubts that the debate would change the minds of either Edip or me. In fact, I would go further and say that I am now certain that I will never be able to completely destroy Code 19. This is for the simple reason that I can?t destroy what the god has made. Even if what he has made is only a ?fitna?/temptation for the unappreciative. So as long as there are unappreciative people around to get attracted to this temptation, Code 19 will remain. My only hope is to uncover the god?s message that Dr. Khalifa hid behind his gross mistranslations and expose falsehood. The rest is up to every individual one of you.

Peace,

Ayman

farida

Peace all,
941 Mobilize in light gear or heavy gear, and strive with your money and lives in the cause of God. That is best if you knew

We do not know where to Mobilize and we have no gear that I am aware of? Could it mean joining the army of those being oppressed?

Salaam
I believe one can mobilize even at one?s home with the family preparing them to stand against wrong reccognise power of the truth faith in GOd from there work onward to friends and e-friends etc.,. Certain ordinary acts may seem trivial to us but they can encourage others to take steps towards justice. Instill values into each other which promote strength of character, disregard for the material world and solid belief in the hereafter. Look up to cool people who live simple life who forsake this world and work towards the cause of Allah make it a trend to respect such strong personalities so that it becomes part of the society to work towards justice.
Many people think if they do their Salah (practical or philosophical) and Zakah and behave in the best of manner they have done their duty to Allah but when it comes to standing against oppression they skip that part its considered naive to get involved into politics. One often get this warning; "do you want to risk your career and your home on the mortgage, think of the consequence deen is one thing duniya is another "

4 77 Have you noted those who were told, "You do not have to fight; all you need to do is observe the Contact Prayers (Salat) and give the obligatory charity (Zakat)," then, when fighting was decreed for them, they feared the people as much as they feared GOD, or even more? They said, "Our Lord, why did You force this fighting on us? If only You respite us for awhile!" Say, "The materials of this world are nil, while the Hereafter is far better for the righteous, and you never suffer the slightest injustice."
peace

anthonywallace

A futile attempt to attack Rashad. Anthony tries to hurl some mud through his questions yet the direction of the mud is based on getting the Quranic chronology of the description backwards. In other words, his questions are having a silly ride on a boomerang. I am not sure whether he does it deliberately or by ignorance, his prejudice and lack of appreciation of "one of the greatest" signs is obvious from his expressed intention.

According to the Quran, the prototypical unappreciative challenger rejected the divine nature of the Quran and THEN he was subjected to the 19, not the other way around. So, Anthony might wish to twist the facts, but Rashad does not fit this description. He changed his mind after the discovery of the 19 and after witnessing its great paradigm changing message.

With the advent of the fulfillment of the prophecy in 1974, we are all described by verse 7431. So, the question is which group do we belong to?

The hypocrites and unappreciative people who will fall into a fitna (trial, torturing test) by not comprehending the role of 19 and ask "What God means by this?"
Those whose acknowledgment increases by witnessing the great prophecy containing an extraordinary philosophical evidence/proof for the divinity of the Quran and its protection with an embedded mathematical design.
The Christians and Jews whose doubts about the authenticity of the Quran is removed through the number 19.

Yes, which of the three groups above do we belong to?

Peace,
Edip

peace,

Im not tryin to attack Rashad if thats what you think. If the "scorcher" is the Quran, then yes I believe in it.And before I believed in it when I first heard about it. But I still must do my research. From my understanding the scorcher is the Fire. And I believe that the "Fire" is the Quran that Jesus prophesied. So is the quran considered the scorcher or not? if not then I dont think we can say that over the Quran is 19.

How am i twistin the facts. Im just askin questions, perhaps those who doubt Gods messenger may believe in him...The questions I used are based on the description of the rejecters in 74, and if Rashid dont fit the description then I dont see any room for the people to doubt. Him or any other messenger...

The main thing I want to know as of now is " what is it refering to when it says over it ( the quran or Fire ) is 19."

peace

Bahman

You should at least be familiar with the way the qur'aan is written and not compare it with how the language is written or used today. You read Farsi, so this should not escape you. And as I said, meaning does not matter when you are busy calculating words and letters, otherwise, the whole base for the code (7431) is completely off point.

Dear sister Salaam.

I am exhausted and I am going to relax for while and read only. You as moderator have more load and wish you luck GW.
But your intelligent and intellectuality gives me energy to resposne your post. God Bless you and hope to witness the truth.
Have you ever tried a new key in old lock, Rust by time develops some extra pieces that your key do not turn easily and after few time it works ok because key teeth removes fine extra pieces. As far as you do not damage the lock and key it is ok. Now code 19 is that new key and lock is GR.
As far as the meaning of word do not be effected then should obey code to remove impurity which has happened during centuries knowingly or not willingly or not.
First we check if key works and then we look waht kind of rust is there make it difficult.
The meaning of messages are second phase of anybody witness Miracle.
When book has no proof ( rejecting Miracle) then is noesense to talk about meanings GR is considered another scripture with no proof .

Now the code is aimed at fixing the qur'aan's mistakes. Based on what criterea? The number 19. How you reached this number? Through calculating letters in the qur'aan! Can you see the circular argument?

You and many like you raised in grew in families practicing your belief , for example going Mecca kissing the black stone and all life following Sunnah as Sunni or Shia. Now found those fabrications in hadith are wrong and turn into GR Alone without proof is not ebough
Without proof and trying to persuade disbelievers of GR by your heart feeling which can not be transferred to other or explaining pudding of GR and now try to match to science which every day is changing is not prefect way.
This change missing the big part and that is proof for book and this is your difficulty which have to write and write and write, discuss and discuss and discuss, argue and argue and finally if you are doing this in your place a fight and bloodshed.
I am coming from different background. I was called Shia and we had even a GR parked on highest shelve ( only one and only book) which never read it even was translated.
The manner and life style in Mohammedan territories is not Islam and I did not know like many other that corruption is coming from Hadith and have no choice unless pretend they are believer because they have to sacrifice everything from family to job to reputation if they are lucky do not penalized as Mofsedol fel arz ? corrupted to earth tto death penalty.

These problem has caused many like me to desert GR when they are not aware of realities.
Many turn into atheism in hide and do all instructed lies as they have no choice and some think that Christianity is better. Mnay left Christianity and fell into Moh If they are lucky Like Kyle Jewell and Maria Majidah they find the right path and come to Quran Alone but without proof they can not do better as for Bible.

I come from atheism converting agnostic and my search was finding assign of God in this earth for this era human which is traveling into space.
My search on this screen took me to this by Rashad. I understood it and surrendered and submitted to God and do my life not accoeding to Rashad?s opinion but GR ALONE . I never asked for name for finder and how he got to such number.
When I explained this to my only daughter 10 years ago she asked me before I explain more tell her why god Chose 19 and not any other number and that was big question which I chose it as my site y19.net
reminding me. These taking time discussions has not given time tome to finish my study and search which is half done and soon GW iwill publish it.

Say we do ignore

THE SIMPLE FACTS
Like the Quran itself, the Quran's mathematical coding ranges from the very simple, to the very complex. The Simple Facts are those observations that can be ascertained without using any tools. The complex facts require the assistance of a calculator or a computer. The following facts do not require any tools to be verified, but please remember they all refer to the original Arabic text

The first verse (11),known as "Basmalah," consists of 19 letters.
The Quran consists of 114 suras, which is ..............19 x 6.
The total number of verses in the Quran is 6346, or ....19 x 334. Note that 6+3+4+6 =.......19.
The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its conspicuous absence from Sura 9 (it occurs twice in Sura 27) & 114= 19x6.
From the missing Basmalah of Sura 9 to the extra Basmalah of Sura 27, there are precisely ...............19 suras.
It follows that the total of the sura numbers from 9 to 27 (9+10+11+12+...+26+27) is 342, or .............19 x 18.
This total (342) also equals the number of words between the two Basmalahs of Sura 27, and 342 = ........19 x 18.
The famous first revelation (961-5) consists of .......19 words.
This 19-worded first revelation consists of 76 letters .19 x 4.
Sura 96, first in the chronological sequence, consists of .....................................................19 verses.
This first chronological sura is placed atop the last ..19 suras.
Sura 96 consists of 304 Arabic letters, and 304 equals .19 x 16.
The last revelation (Sura 110) consists of ............19 words.
The first verse of the last revelation (1101) consists of ................19 letters.
14 different Arabic letters, form 14 different sets of "Quranic Initials" (such as A.L.M. of 21), and prefix 29 suras. These numbers add up to 14+14+29 = 57 = ......19 x 3.
The total of the 29 sura numbers where the Quranic Initials occur is 2+3+7+...+50+68 = 822, and 822+14 (14 sets of initials) equals 836, or ................. 19 x 44.
Between the first initialed sura (Sura 2) and the last initialed sura (Sura 6 there are 38 un-initialed suras 19 x 2.
Between the first and last initialed sura there are ....19 sets of alternating "initialed" and "un-initialed" suras.
The Quran mentions 30 different numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 19, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 70, 80, 99, 100, 200, 300, 1000, 2000, 3000, 5000, 50,000, & 100,000. The sum of these numbers is 162146, which equals 19x8534.
This is a condensed summary of the Simple Facts.
And then we Ignore 7430
And just say X person claims that he has found secret of 14 intials in 29 chapters plus many amany and further discoveries.
How this can be ignored
And How this can be ignored and how this and this and this??????????????????????????????
All these are coincidence ?
Of course some Mohammedans are accepting code 19 but for denial and rejecting claims for a person which had clear proof for his assignment. A person which put his life on his belief when he could live with al privileges by offered millions dollars of stolen money of nation which are hide in banks and used in casinos and their entertainment with income for naive masses going to kiss black stone hence never understood GR and following conjectures of their parents.
What makes me sad is people like you and Ayman and many and many well educated people yet tied in chain of your parents beief and think that no falsehood enters when you do not have any proof but we have.
Of course I like the way you and other with good knowledge of book bring your questions and we are ready to answer . But all Ihave asked all disbelievers is just produce one example like those.
Only one the simplest one and I promise you that if you can do it without using computer like 1400 years ago then I agree that it is man made and text can be man made because there is no proof.
You witnessed here just few days ago I posted a slide of The Key chapter and ask Ayman which told me had Phd but now I he said not in Math but engineering which math is a must and asked him to produce one like that. Did you see the response what kind of nonsense number was added and claimed he did it.
I could accept that from new members that some of them instead of doing search and find the information they jump on this forum and making long list of questions that can be find easy to googol it. Some question are nonsense and childish and that makes you people and us tired and exhausted. Of course some of these converts think that anything with 19 is Miracle , they do prophecies and links to their name, date birth, death , name it and make pattern of 19 to be another messenger.

But finally why we shoud discuss and argue about a clear evidence and reject it because Rashad did not translate 7431 as you learned.

When people witness this should they ask where 19 comes from. If no 19 was written in GR then we should reject it. Iam not sure how old you people are but your parent welcomed Rashad for his finding and you were teaching it in your school. Please read Ahmed Deedat claims which has to forget when he could be assassinated by such people and Binladen serving CIA.
When you come to God Alone area you should know that your only support id God Alone and anytime Stan can take your life.
We and people like Ayman with his search showing what kind of scandal have been there to create Mecca bring masses of na?ve and misinformed to kiss black stone and use income plus stolen oil money of nation to be spent on their corruption and herams.
Ahmadinejad is follower of this man which assassinated 25000 Mjuhid ( shia opposition party and communists in 1367 29 years ago) He is propagating Imam Zaman (Mehdi) coming building mansion and highways and masses go every day to send letter to Mehdi
Such person like many others have PHDs says that his policy id dictating to him by Mehdi. You see how far stupidity is over Mohammedan?s territories ad how far they are from GR. Such person parroting what other revolutionist leaders have told in UN hence thousand opposition Shia and other parties are in jail without court for months and years. They close newspaper ans site do not agree with them and easily they assassinate people. They keep these people mis informed and not let them to do search and study. Iread in one post that Miracle site are filtered in UA and same in other Mohammdan?s
I thin after I finish this discussion with I will stay away from writing and read for while. This may help us from circular writing.

No. Submission.org is using a Seen and a Saad, just as used in the qur'aan. If they "fix" them and make them both Seen's, a great part of the calculations will collapse.

I read in Miracle
This initial prefixes three suras,
7, 19, and 38, and the total occurrence
of the letter "S" (Saad) in these three
suras is 152, 19x8 (Table 2). It is
noteworthy that in 769, the word "Bastatan"
is written in some printings with a "Saad,"
instead of "Seen." This is an erroneous
distortion that violates the Quran's code.
By looking at the oldest available copy of
the Quran, the Tashkent Copy, it was found
that the word "Bastatan" is correctly written with a "Seen

http//y19.net/q-tash.gif

Table 2 The Frequency of
Occurrence of the
Letter "S" in the
Saad-initialed Suras
Sura Frequency of "S"
7 97
19 26
38 29
152 (19x8
Would you explain more in detail with reference to above .
Peace.

unknownuser

Peace Ayman,

Read what Nun clearly said

"Even/odd or binary (0/1) structure cannot be replicated by man or machine -- move, delete, or change one chapter, verse, etc., and it falls apart"

This statement is either a bad joke or you are wrong.

There is no symmetry or anything. I was able to easily achieve more real symmetry in about 10 minutes while messing up ALL the chapters.

If I randomly change the numbers then 1 out of every 19 of my trials are going to be divisible by 19. A computer can do 19 trials in a millisecond. So it would have taken me even less time to get a 19 divisible randomly. Even without a computer it wouldn't take very long to do 19 trials.

This has little to do with 1/19 statistics; we are looking at a basic structure not absurdities with preconceptions and working things backwards to find a number. You can only do exactly what you did which was to move an Equal and Even #of verses within a group, top or bottom half...

even-even
odd-even
odd-odd
even-odd

Else the structure is solid which I?ve yet to figure out what prevents doing the above and suspect tie to # verses.

There is definitely an even-odd binary structure along with symmetry ? too obvious unless one is blind...

http//i35.tinypic.com/atonwz.jpg

http//i38.tinypic.com/fe449k.jpg

http//i35.tinypic.com/2cr4yev.jpg

http//i35.tinypic.com/2rw17af.jpg

Lastly, anyone claiming verses were added/deleted is a SERIOUS mistake and would be careful propagating a lie.

Quran does not contradict.

Bahman

This has little to do with 1/19 statistics;
Peace
You may be itersted in brother Oben finding
Peace

Bahman

peace

Salam Everybody,

I would like to share a very interesting phenomen, which no body is giving attention to. Its the structure of the verses of the Quran and how it is balanced using the Even and the Odd

Definitions

• 1 even and odd
even number a number, which is divisible by 2
odd number a number, which is not divisible by 2

• 2 homogenous and heterogenous
We define a Sura to be homogeneous, if the number of the sura is even and the number of verses in it is also even, or if the number of the sura is odd and the number of verses in it is also odd.
Otherwise the sura is heterogenous

• 3 Suras of the Quran
There are 114 Suras in the Quran. The sum of numbers from 1-114 = 6555

• 4 numbered verses in the Quran
There are 6234 numbered verses in the Quran

The phenomenons

• There are 60 Suras in the Quran, which have even number of verses.
These are divided into

• 30 even sura numbers

• 30 odd sura numbers

• There are 54 Suras in the Quran, which have odd number of verses.
These are divided into

• 27 even sura numbers

• 27 odd sura numbers

• There are 57 homogenous Suras and 57 heterogenous Suras in the Quran

• The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the homogenous section is 6234 (compare with definition #4)

• The sum of all Sura numbers and the numbers of numbered verses in these suras in the heterogenous section is 6555 (compare with definition #3)

• The number of even Suras in the homogenous section = 30 = The number of odd Suras in the heterogenous section

• The number of odd Suras in the homogenous section = 27 = The number of even Suras in the heterogenous section

• The sum of Sura numbers in the homogenous section = 3303 = The sum of the numbered verses of the heterogenous section

• If we examine the two halves of the Quran (Suras 1-57 and Suras 58-114) we find

• The number of homogenous Suras in the first half = 29 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the second half

• The number of homogenous Suras in the second half = 28 = The number of heterogenous Suras in the first half

• The sum of the numbered verses in the first 19th chapter is 2346 and the sum of numbered verses of the Quran is 6234, and the 6234 is the 19th permutation of 2346

And today I've observed something amazing
If we examine the numbered verses of the Quran
7 286 200 176 120 165 206 75 127 109 123 111 43 52 99 128 111 110 98 135 112 78 118 64 77 227 93 88 69 60 34 30 73 54 45 83 182 88 75 85 54 53 89 59 37 35 38 29 18 45 60 49 62 55 78 96 29 22 24 13 14 11 11 18 12 12 30 52 52 44 28 28 20 56 40 31 50 40 46 42 29 19 36 25 22 17 19 26 30 20 15 21 11 8 8 19 5 8 8 11 11 8 3 9 5 4 7 3 6 3 5 4 5 6

And for each number we see if the number following it is higher or lower and write H for higher and L for lower we will get the following string
HLLLHHLHLHLLHHHLLLHLLHLHHLLLLLLHLLHHLLHLLHLLLHLLHHLHLHHLLHLHL-HL-HH-LL-LHLLHLHLLLHLLLHHHLLHLL-HLH-H-LLHLLHLHLHLHH

The - means the number of verses wasn't increased nor decreased

We have in this string 61 L's and 45 H's (difference 16)

But if we see how many times it was switched from high to low (represented as HL or H-L) we'll find 32 switches

and if we see how many times it was switched from low to high (represented as LH or L-H) we'll find also 32 switches.
One can not escape the relation between 32 and 16

Now to imagine the complexity of this structure, here is a task for people, who are interested in mathematics and/or programming, what we can just imagine solving it using arrays of integers.

? Find a prime number P
? Find N numbers, where each number has an index from 1-N and N is a multiple of P
? An index is homogeneous if the index is even and the number assigned to it is even, or if the index is odd and the number assigned to it is odd, otherwise its heterogeneous the number of homogeneous indices must be equal to heterogenic indices
? The even numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
? The odd numbers among these N numbers should have an equal number of odd indices and even indices
? The sum of indices from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
? The sum of numbers from 1-N should be equal to the sum of all indices and numbers in the homogeneous or heterogeneous section
? Even indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to odd indices in the heterogeneous section
? Odd indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to even indices in the heterogeneous section
? The sum of indices in the homogeneous section must be equal to the sum of numbers in the heterogeneous section
? The number of homogeneous indices in the first half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the second half of indices
? The number of homogeneous indices in the second half of indices must be equal to the number of heterogeneous indices in the first half of indices
? The sum of the N numbers should be the P-th permutation of the sum of the number assigned to the first P indices
? For each number from the N numbers write the number
followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by P
? For each number from the N numbers write the sum of numbers from 1 to this number followed by the numbers from 1 to this number. All numbers placed next to each other must be divisible by P

The 114 numbers given on this thread fulfill the requirements of this task for P=19

Best regards,
Mohamed

P.S. almost all information are taken from http//www.mucizeler.com/19lar/ciftveteksayi.htm (turkish language, however I don't speak turkish P)

afridi220

Peace Ramon, everyone,

I completely agree with you. The key passage that Code 19 is founded on is 7431. It is not surprising that Khalifa grossly mistranslates this passage as we see below

KHALIFA We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19)
(1) to disturb the disbelievers,
(2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture),
(3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and
(5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

Khalifa mistranslates 7431 to make it appear as if "the number" is the reason why "the people of the book are convinced, the faith of the faithful is strengthened, etc.". Instead, the real reason is not ?the number? but it is that they see that "their count is only a trial/temptation for the unappreciative". Even Edip himself corrected Khalifa?s gross mistranslation. Please compare Khalifa?s distorted cause (underlined) and effect (bold) relationship with the correct cause and effect in Edip?s own translation during our earlier debate and all the translations below

EDIP We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we made their number to be ONLY A TRIAL/PUNISHMENT for the unappreciative
(1) to convince those who received the book,
(2) to strengthen the faith of the faithful,
(3) to remove doubts from the hearts of those who received the book, as well as the believers, and
(4) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"
GOD thus sends astray whoever wills, and guides whoever wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

YUSUFALI And We have set none but angels as Guardians of the Fire; and We have fixed their number ONLY AS A TRIAL for unbelievers,- in order that
(1) the People of the Book may arrive at certainty, and
(2) the Believers may increase in Faith,- and that
(3) no doubts may be left for the People of the Book and the Believers, and that
(4) those in whose hearts is a disease and the Unbelievers may say, "What symbol doth Allah intend by this?"
Thus doth Allah leave to stray whom He pleaseth, and guide whom He pleaseth and none can know the forces of thy Lord, except He and this is no other than a warning to mankind.

LAYTH 7431. And We have made the guardians of the Fire to be angels; and We did not make their number EXCEPT AS A TRIAL for those who have rejected, so that
(1) those who were given the Scripture would understand, and
(2) those who have faith would be increased in faith, and so that
(3) those who have been given the Scripture and the believers do not have doubt, and so that
(4) those who have a sickness in their hearts and the rejecters would say ?What did God mean with an example such as this??
It is such that God misguides whom He wishes, and He guides whom He wishes. And none know your Lord?s soldiers except Him; and it is but a reminder for human beings.

Finally, my own translation

AYMAN 7431. And we didn't make the owners/companions of the fire except controllers; and we didn't make their count EXCEPT AS A "FITNA"/TRIAL/TEMPTATION for those who have been unappreciative so that
(1) those who were given the book be sure, and
(2) those who had faith increase in faith and
(3) those who were given the book and those who had faith do not have doubt. And,
(4) so that those in whose hearts there is sickness and the rejecters say "What did the god want with this example?"
Like this the god misguides whom he wills and guides whom he wills. And none knows your lord's soldiers except him. And it is nothing except a reminder for the humans.

I hope that it is clear by now as we can see from the attitudes of those who are attracted to Code 19 that the count of 19 is ONLY an attractive temptation for those who have been unappreciative, nothing more, nothing less. For example, it is a temptation for those who deep inside don?t really appreciate the great reading and therefore need some kind of ?a code? to believe in.

This is why Edip made an excellent choice for the title of the debate, ?Nineteen a Fitna or a Sign?. By selecting this title, he has already cornered himself and planted the seed for the self-destruction of Code 19 in the eyes of all those who forgo Khalifa's translation and reread 7431 and believe in it.

I think that many people here expressed doubts that the debate would change the minds of either Edip or me. In fact, I would go further and say that I am now certain that I will never be able to completely destroy Code 19. This is for the simple reason that I can?t destroy what the god has made. Even if what he has made is only a ?fitna?/temptation for the unappreciative. So as long as there are unappreciative people around to get attracted to this temptation, Code 19 will remain. My only hope is to uncover the god?s message that Dr. Khalifa hid behind his gross mistranslations and expose falsehood. The rest is up to every individual one of you.

Peace,

Ayman

peace bravo peace

Sibute

Ayman wrote

According to Edip?s logic, the god also provides the Bible Code numerologists with a winning lottery ticket of HITLER?s name encoded with EVIL, and many other future events that didn?t even happen until many centuries after the Bible but yet are ?coded? in there. Using Edip?s logic then this is more impressive than a mere number being divisible by 19. Unlike winning the lottery which is routinely accomplished by many people every year, how many of the billions of people of the past hundreds of years predicted that HITLER would be EVIL? Probably very few if any at all. So the probability is 1 in billions.

Well done!You have nailed it.