Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

unknownuser

Peace,

I see the Code 19 (If True) as a Blessing. What it means to me is that I now have Proof...

Please show proof using code to protect the two small chapters and also when they are switched...

Sura #108

1

2

3

Sura #110

1

2

3

RA786

Peace,

Please show proof using code to protect the two small chapters and also when they are switched...

Sura #108

1

2

3

Sura #110

1

2

3

I dont know how yet. (
I havent been able to go about the Code yet...
I have admited Before that I have a limited understanding, so that is only what I am speaking of (Limited understanding and Theory.)
I hope to one day learn how to utilize mathamatics and understand the Quran Code in its entierty.

I suppose you can ask an expert on this subject since I am not.
and as Quoted above IF Code 19 is True (which I believe to be true for now (time being) with my limited understanding)
Then I would FINANNLY have Proof. Untill then I dont really have Proof.
I hope to master the code one day Inshallah.

*I have Read Both Sides from Edip and Ayman... and others.
I feel I am more believeing in there Being a Code rather then there Not being a code.
However I cannot Prove its Existsnace (YET) nor can I Disprove its existance (Yet).

I cannot Prove Allah's Existance either. or the Existance of Angles, jinn, or spiritual phinominon.
Just my Theory and Belief.

ayman

Peace RA786,

Increased my faith as in giving another miracle to the list of miracles that the Quran has.
In my mind, I see it as an Increase in which its benifitial because Athists and Religious people Alike can prove that there is a book that whithstood the hands of time.
There are Many Books that claim to be "Protected". There are many Political Philosophies and Manifestos that have claimed to be superb and infalliable.
However ALL have failed, and every Athiest will Agree.
However, When the Quran is mentioned...that is the difference. It unlike other books and manifestos...actually gives Solutions for Humanity and is Infalliable.
It contains Scientific Miracles but also a Miracle in which it cannot be changed.

Nope. The great reading doesn't have miracles (Arabic "mu3jizat&quot.

If you were to talk to an Athiest...and He says... "How Does a Book become infalliable?"
what would you reply? in all reality...answer this simple Question...HOW does a BOOK become UNCHANGABLE? I would reply by saying...it would have to become Mathamatical. Thats the Only way for a Book to be unchangeable. Right? or not Incorrect?
You can Change Words, Paragraphs, Society, Culture, Language, and even Root-Words overtime.. however the language of Math cannot be changed. Yes or no?

Math changes all the time. Also, Code 19 is numerology and not math (even Edip admitted that it is numerology). Do you even know what numerology is?

I am NOT asking Where is God like an Athiest. That is an incorrect way of thinking. The only people who say that are actually saying the same thing the jews said on the Mountain asking to See Allah. That is also incorect because The Athiests who Ask that are judging God on somekind of fallable Scale like they would a human. They are really reffereing to some kind of "God" in the sky with a beard and clouds..etc..
So No, I am NOT asking where is GOD...I asked...WHERE is the QURANIC PROTECTION.

Same thing. If you believe that the god protected the reminder then the fact that it reminds you should have been enough.

Numerology is irrelevant. People can produce all sorts of impressive numerology using 19 or any prime number that doesn't remind anyone of any truth. The proof is in the pudding. Why didn't Khalifa's numerology remind him to not mindlessly stone some "devil pillars"? Why did it not remind him not to falsify every verse he translated that had to do with his messengership or Code 19? Why did it not remind him to not focus on superficial looks? Why did it not remind him of sharing the whole truth about both successes and failures and not hide his failed trials like a cowardly thief?

Quote from Ayman "The god himself protects the reminder." I agree...that that is equal to say "The God Himself Created the Laws of Life, Physics, and mathamatics....The God Himself Protects the Earth from being to close to the Sun or Moon and The God Himself Creates a Protection (Code) in the Quran.
So you see....There is Really No Difference between the Two Statements. Whether Allah Himself Protects the Quran.... OR Allah Himself Created the Protection to Protect the Quran Thus is Still Protecting it... There is No difference at all. we are saying the same thing.
There is a relationship between the Creater (Allah) and the (Creation)...that He Protects (either through Mathamatics, or Other Means in which He Creates it.)

But that is exactly what people who are ignorant about the laws of life, physics and mathematics say. Those who have knowledge know that what we call the laws of life and physics are nothing but manmade approximation of the god's creation. It will never fully represent the god's creation. For example, 9.8 m/sec^2 is an approximate law for gravity on earth. It is not gravity. In fact, we don't really fully understand what gravity is but we can approximate it and as we progress our understanding will improve but it will never be perfect. Mathematics are just a convenient human tool for human approximation. Numerology is not even mathematics. It is nothing but useless playing with numbers. This is why no one has ever discovered anything new or improved their understanding of the great reading as a result of Code 19. It can only be used to justify preconceptions.

That is to say that When Allah HIMSELF Freeded the Children of Israel ....or Allah HIMSELF Created Moses for the Purpose to Free the Children of Isreal...There is No Difference. Allah Created Both the CHildren of Israel, Moses, the Freedom, and the Oppression, and the Reality in which they Exist.
Yes or No?

The god doesn't create falsehood. All falsehoods, whether Hadiths, Code 19, the Bible Code, etc. comes from our imagination.

3A) Where does it say in the Quran that The Quranic Protection is Under that Condition that it is Only for those who use their intellect?

The god constantly tells us in the great reading that its signs are for those who use their minds/intellect. I am surprised that you don't know this. As for protection, since it is "the reminder" that is protected then only those who remember will benefit and see this protection. If you don't remember then the protection is irrelevant for you as if it didn't exist and you will delete passages or abrogate them or add your own Hadiths etc...

3B) If it is Proven that the Quranic Protection IS in fact under that Condition (using intellect to Remember)... Does not Studying the Code 19 not Meet that Criteria you have presented?

No because Code 19 is numerology and all numerology is falsehood based on sharing successful trials and hiding failed trials. If the Bible Code hunters shared with its believers the thousands of trials where they didn't get a hit then no one would believe in the Bible Code. The same goes for Code 19.

I can use that to say this statement The Quranic Mathamatical Miracle is a Reminder that is Only There for those who use their Intellect to remember. I think it would still make sense even in that Context.

But they don't remember. They keep hiding the truth, stoning some devil pillars, etc. just like sectarians's Hadith don't remind them.

Here is what is Troubleing me with what you have said.
If There is a Person who Believes in the Code 19 (Such as Edip), and Does his Islamic Requirements...How has he then "Forgot" the reminder?
I see the Code 19 (If True) as a Blessing. What it means to me is that I now have Proof to show non-muslims that I have in my possession a Boog of Great Wisdom...that will change the Earth...and is Protected (By Allah) and that Protection is varifiable.

Edip has indeed forgot the reminder about testifying the truth, the whole truth, as you can see here

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg239877#msg239877

Ask Edip why neither he nor any Code 19 hunter will ever answer.

I am not well read or really understand this so I will have to study and research this aspect. I will take what you wrote and ponder over it. hmm

Perhaps if you spent more time reading and less time on counting then it would be more beneficial. After all, it is called the great reading and not the great counting.

Let me Translate "I believe Allah Himself protects the reminder in the Quran, not some code, not Hadiths, not some companions...."
I too agree that Allah Himself Protects the "Quran"... (in the Quran). You have used the Words "reminder" and "great Reading" interchangable I assume.
Its a little confusing... It would be easier to simply say "Quran".
Again, GOD (ALLAH) protects the Quran (reminder/Mercy/Guidence/Book of Miracles-wisdom/Rules) In the Reminder (Reminder/Mercy/Guidence/Book/of Mircles-wisdom/Rules) So... we are in Agreeance?

They are not exactly interchangeable. The reminder is the result of the reading. It is like when you read and study for an exam and then you remember and do well. So they are related but not exactly alike. Some people can read but the god has blocked them from understanding and thus remembering.

Ayman From what you have Wrote...It seems you have put "Code" next to the words "Hadiths, and Companions" as things that you feel do NOT carry the Quranic Protection. HOWEVER, Unlike the other examples you have stated (hadiths,Companions) A "CODE" is not separate from the Quran. A "Code" is not Another Book or Religious Source other than the Quran. A "Code" is NOT a Talmud...or a Hadith...or an Article that was written in Cosmopolitan Magazine.
The Code in which We are Reffereing to is NOT a Separate Source from the Quran...But IS actually (Layed INSIDE the Quran).
Do you understand?

It is 100% separate from the great reading. It is 100% dependent on things that are completely separate from the great reading

What methods of counting to use.
What data sets to apply the methods to.
What results to share.
What results to hide.

If you change the method, the "code" disappears into thin air. Apply the same method to a different dataset and the "code" also dissapears. Also, if you decide to share all results and not just the successful ones then the "code" dissappears into thin air. This is indisputable.

here Let me put it in other terms...
A Hadith Book is Not Connected to the Quran.
A Talmud Book is Not Connected to the Quran.
A Companion of the Prophet is not Connected to the Quran.
A Cosmopolitan Magazine is not Connected to the Quran.
(Meaning you can find them completely Separate from the Quran that is on your Book Shelf)...
BUT the CODE19 IS Connected to the Quran. Like a Two in One. Right?
Theres not a Separte Book called (Code 19) that is Used.... actually Only a QURAN is Used.
Again I will have to Translate what you are saying so I can understand.

Similarly, the letter Alif having a GV of 1 is not connected to the great reading and none of the many numbers in the great reading is represented by its GV. It can be considered just like a separate Hadith that interprets the great reading in a certain way.

Similarly, adding letters is not connected to the great reading. There is not a single verse in the great reading that tells us "and the number of letters in this verse is x". It can similarly be considered just like a separate Hadith that interprets the great reading in a certain way.

You can apply this to every single method that Code 19 numerologists use. All those methods are not connected to the great reading and are 100% manmade. Change the method and the code vanishes.

This is why the only thing consistent about Code 19 is that the same method is NEVER used twice. Do you think that the Code hunters didn't try to consistently use methods? Nope they tried but when they didn't consistently get 19 divisibles they simply hid them under the rug and didn't tell you. Every change in method is a result of failed trials.

Those Who remember Naturally know its Preserved? HUH? ??? o
You are Very right Ayman...that IS extremley difficult to understand.

How is it difficult? If you remember the truth then the reminder is indeed preserved. As I said, the truth is in the pudding. As for those who don't try to remember then it doesn't matter anyway whether the reminder is preserved or not.

Similar to talking to a christian who believes the Current Bible has been Preserved....and then saying its been because they "Naturally Know" that it is Preserved.
I mean...How does One "Naturally Know" and Naturally "Remember" that the Book is Preserved? that doesnt make any sense.

It makes sense if you remember the truth then the reminder is preserved.

Heres a Question Ayman.
Edip yuksel... Why would Rashad Khalifah or any and All of the "Code 19ers" Lie?

Why did Hadith fabricators lie?

Why do the Bible Code hunters lie?

If The Code 19ers Are Truley "Liers" and are just making up a lie about the Quran haveing a Mathamatical Code in it...
Why? What gain would they really obtain out of it?
It doesnt seem likley. Spening all of this time and energy lieing about something that they know is false.

Bible Code hunters spend just as much time and energy on something that they know is false. They also KNOW the thousands of failed trials that they are hiding just as much as Khalifa knew and Edip now knows.

See unlike Sunni's or Shia's...who have been indocrinated Since Birth for ceneturies and many including Iman's and Scholars may quite possibly really NOT KNOW...
"Code 19ers" are different. it is a new movment, and THEY KNOW.
They must See their ERRORS or See TRUTHS everyday that they Study it.

Do they see their errors? If so, why do they never tell us about their failed trials? Do you think that Khalifa NEVER had a failed trial? No reasonable person would say yes. If so, why do you think he never told us about those failed trials and only advertized the successful trials while sprinkling them with fancy words like "precise", "remarkable", etc. While he never used such words with his failed trials or even shared them without any comments.

So, why would they Intentionally Create a Lie in the Islamic Religion that they KNOW is false and Know the Consequences of such actions?
Would someone who Believes in Allah Really Do that? especially knowing the consequences of fabricating lies?
either that Option is True, or in all reality they are really Athiests at heart...and If THAT's the Truth...Why would they waste there time here in the Islamic Religion?...as apposed to living like an Athiest free of All cares or worrys and live life enjoying the wonders that the dunya and shaytan have to offer?
That too doesnt seem likley.

Same thing can be said about the Bible Code hunters and Hadith fabricators. They all think that they are reformers but they are in reality corrupters.

I guess I doubt that Code 19ers are Lying. What Goal would they really Achive by doing this?
did they make Billions of Dollars or something? Do they get Material Weath from the Jinn? Do they get Control over peoples Souls?
Edip Yuksel! are you making Billions? laugh

The Bible Code liars also didn?t make Billions.

Humm.... Rashad Khalifah.... I guess all He got out of this "Supposed Elaborate Math Scheme" was a little bit of Local recognition...and an assasination.
Not like the guy made Billions or anything. Most people never even heard of Rashad Khalifa or Edip or code 19.
(Sorry Edip, khalifa, and others...no offense or anything..Im just trying to illustrate that it would seem illogical to Lie about somthing that really didnt make anyone super famous.
So...It would seem MORE likley to me that its Not Something Monetary/Material to lie about...rather it is something True that One Man got Brutally Murdered for and is starting to raise some questions about. It would also seem that it is the most Logical Answer to the QURANIC PROTECTION/Preservation.

So if one of the Bible Code hunters gets murdered then according to your logic the Bible Code is correct and we should all believe that the Bible predicted the future and all sorts of nonsense!

Why would an AL-Qaida Terrorist Kill Rashad Khalifa (if he was lying)? Tons of people could have been killed...but Specifically Khalifa was a Threat to the Current Islam.
WHY? What would this mean for AL-Qaida and Traditional Islam?
If Kahlifa was just some Crazy old guy who lies...why would he be such an Important Kill and Threat?
From what I've leaned...ONLY IMPORTANT People Get Killed. (in refference to threats).
Its rather odd that the Death of Rashad Khalifah in 1990 really started to shape how things are to be connected with The US. Islam. War. Spirituality. and the New world Order.
1990-Islamic Terrorists (alQaeda) Kill Rashad.
-from this point on Islamic "AlQaeda" attacks would be on the rise.
1993-World Trade Center Bombings
2001-World Trade Center attaks/911
hmm

There is no logic because terrorists are idiots. So don?t base your belief in something on what some idiots decided to do or not to do.

Now let me close with answering your last remaining points

Is Miracle = to Fitna?

No.

Miracle = ?mu?jiza?.
Temptation = ?fitna?.

P.S... Nobody has yet answered if the Quran follows the same Numerology type of System that the Torah has. (as posted in the video).
and I hvent found any opinions.

So you admit that Code 19 is numerology and yet you continue to believe in it!

Hebrew numerals were invented in the 1st century BCE and Square Hebrew and its GVs that we are all familiar with were not standardized until the 2nd Century CE. Since the Torah was revealed in an earlier Millennium, it is a physical impossibility for the Torah to really have any such ?code?.

The same goes for the great reading. The earliest examples of Arabic GVs date to the 10th century CE, long after the revelation of the great reading. If you examine the Arabic GVs closely, you will see that the Arabic GVs are aligned with the Hebrew GVs but letters that don?t have an equivalent in the Hebrew alphabet are relegated to the end of the GVs (Arabic has 28 letters to Hebrew?s 22). This fact points to an artificial phonetic alignment with Hebrew long after the revelation of the great reading after Arabic became the religious lingua franca.

I dont know how yet. (
I havent been able to go about the Code yet...
I have admited Before that I have a limited understanding, so that is only what I am speaking of (Limited understanding and Theory.)
I hope to one day learn how to utilize mathamatics and understand the Quran Code in its entierty.
I suppose you can ask an expert on this subject since I am not.
and as Quoted above IF Code 19 is True (which I believe to be true for now (time being) with my limited understanding)
Then I would FINANNLY have Proof. Untill then I dont really have Proof.
I hope to master the code one day Inshallah.
*I have Read Both Sides from Edip and Ayman... and others.
I feel I am more believeing in there Being a Code rather then there Not being a code.
However I cannot Prove its Existsnace (YET) nor can I Disprove its existance (Yet).

Ignorance is what Code 19 fraudsters strive on. So be careful. The Code is not rocket science. It is random trial and error while sharing the successful trials and hiding the failed ones. You can easily make your own code by trying random calculations on the great reading. On average 1 out of every 19 attempts will be successful in getting a 19 divisible. If you share only the successful trials then you will create your own ?miracle?. If you are an honest person and you share both successful and failed trials equally then everyone will see that there is no ?miracle?. Try it.

I cannot Prove Allah's Existance either. or the Existance of Angles, jinn, or spiritual phinominon.
Just my Theory and Belief.

Just look inside you and around you and you will see the proof. As for ?jinn?, we are told not to believe in them.

I don?t want to waste any more time on this discussion. Unless Edip gets a sudden outbreak of honesty and decides to come clean and share Khalifa?s failed trials of Appendix 24 then there is really nothing more to say since his silence on this issue speaks volumes to those who use their intellect. As for those who don?t, no one can help them anyway.

Peace,

Ayman

Mazhar

Increased my faith as in giving another miracle to the list of miracles that the Quran has.

Which Arabic word is used to describe something as "miracle" in the Qur'aan, which increases faith, pl quote reference.

hope4

I dont know how yet. (
I havent been able to go about the Code yet...

1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the
hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.

david_rs_aitken

Peace,

This is what Hebrew used to look like
http//upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/74/Silwan-inscr.jpg

The common "square" Hebrew alphabet of today emerged later than the Torah. It's value system is a ripoff of the Greek gematrical/geometical system of exalting idols using numbers. The Hebrew gematria goes A B G D H. Look at how D and H are related in terms of shape

http//img169.imageshack.us/img169/6268/abgdh.png

This is a logical order for Hebrew. There is a logical order for Arabic, too. Any beginner knows that we have BA TA and THAA together because they're so similar in shape - they only vary by dots

When people wanted to start experimenting with Arabic numerology (i.e., the junk science of playing with numbers), they superimposed Arabic over Hebrew, following the Hebrew order which is illogical for Arabic. Since Hebrew only has 22 letters, Arabic has six left over.

What amazes me is that you can look at Khalifa and his collaborators using 19 to PROVE that "the Arabs" (men, women, children - who cares, right?) would be wiped out by the god (on May 19th 1990) using 19-based numerology. They proved it. Obviously, they proved nothing. Don't you see how playing around with numbers can yield any desired result? That's how counting 19 is a fitnah/temptation for those who do not appreciate the god and his message.

Peace,

-David

RA786

1736 And do not uphold what you have no knowledge of. For the
hearing, eyesight, and mind, all these you are responsible for.

I knew someone was going to say that....lol D

I am not "Upholding"...Per se...
I believe that the Math Code is so far the most Logical reason for the Quran's Preservence.
I have admitted that I so far dont completely understand it because I have a problem with Mathamatics (
But hope to One day Prove it Right...Or Honestly come out and say that I have proved it wrong.

If I am able to Prove that Code 19 is Wrong...then I will 100% Agree with Ayman,
However for the time being...I feel it is Correct based off of what I understand so far (in theory).

(when I say I am bad in math, I mean...I have the mathamatical education of or lower than a middle school student. however reading/comprehention/politics/etc...all at College Level) Dont make fun of me...

Thanks David For sharing that, Ill have to look into it.
Like I said...When I am able to FULLY do and understand this Code...I will admit whether it is TRUE or FALSE because I cannot Lie as a Muslim.
I have to answer to Allah SWT...and besides...it would be so incredibly stupid to Lie about something in regards to the Book of Allah.
I wouldnt want to be tormented in hell because of lying.

seattletruth

Humm.... Rashad Khalifah.... I guess all He got out of this "Supposed Elaborate Math Scheme" was a little bit of Local recognition...and an assasination.
Not like the guy made Billions or anything. Most people never even heard of Rashad Khalifa or Edip or code 19.
(Sorry Edip, khalifa, and others...no offense or anything..Im just trying to illustrate that it would seem illogical to Lie about somthing that really didnt make anyone super famous.

So...It would seem MORE likley to me that its Not Something Monetary/Material to lie about...rather it is something True that One Man got Brutally Murdered for and is starting to raise some questions about. It would also seem that it is the most Logical Answer to the QURANIC PROTECTION/Preservation.

Why would an AL-Qaida Terrorist Kill Rashad Khalifa (if he was lying)? Tons of people could have been killed...but Specifically Khalifa was a Threat to the Current Islam.
WHY? What would this mean for AL-Qaida and Traditional Islam?

If Kahlifa was just some Crazy old guy who lies...why would he be such an Important Kill and Threat?
From what I've leaned...ONLY IMPORTANT People Get Killed. (in refference to threats).

Its rather odd that the Death of Rashad Khalifah in 1990 really started to shape how things are to be connected with The US. Islam. War. Spirituality. and the New world Order.

1990-Islamic Terrorists (alQaeda) Kill Rashad.
-from this point on Islamic "AlQaeda" attacks would be on the rise.
1993-World Trade Center Bombings
2001-World Trade Center attaks/911
hmm

Salaam, RA786.

First, it's important to realize that the Fatwa was issued against Rashad because of his promotion over code 19. Traditional scholars actually supported code 19 in the early stages, and the largest Sunni university in Egypt still supports it today http//www.almasry-alyoum.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ArticleID=61549 (run it through Google translate if you have to).

The fatwa was issued for primarily one reason

He claimed that 2 verses from the Quran were false.

It might have been a minor secondary reason that he claimed to be a messenger of God, however, if you look at the historical context, there have been countless people who claimed to be messengers of God, and lots of them weren't killed. For instance, Mrz Ghulm Amad, the founder of the Ahmadiyya faith which has millions of followers worldwide. According to the wiki ( http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mirza_Ghulam_Ahmad ), he died at the age of 72 from "dysentery and excessive weakness". The founders of the Bahai'i faith were killed not because they claimed to be messengers / prophets, but also claimed to be the physical manifestations of God.

But I digress, its an established fact that the reason the fatwa was issued was not because of code 19 at all, but because Rashad had claimed that 2 verses in the Quran were made by human.

However, when you claim that Rashad "wasn't just some old crazy guy who lies", I would have to say that there is unquestionable proof that shows that he indeed WAS a crazy liar. Check out my thread with a video here ( http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9600155.0 ) which proves that Rashad actually claimed that he received DIVINE SCRIPTURE from God; he claimed that all 3 of his translations were actually written by God himself, and were infallible. He claimed that he received new scripture, while somehow claiming that he was not a nabi / prophet, and only a rasul / messenger, and also claiming that Muhammad was undeniably the last prophet. It makes no sense, but just watch the video for yourself, read the thread for yourself, and you will see that Rashad Khalifa was INDEED a crazy old LIAR. It's undeniable.

My last comment I have on your post is that it is indeed fishy that a group with links to al Qaeda was used for the murder. However, it wasn't al Qaeda itself, it was the separate organization Jamaat al Fuqra. Jamaat al Fuqra is fishy in itself, in that it was also backed by CIA, because they claim to have 45 paramilitary organizations IN USA AND CANADA, yet the are not on any "terrorist watch list".

However, just because al Qaeda and Jamaat al Fuqra were funded, founded, trained, and protected by CIA does not mean that they don't carry out their own initiatives. I agree with you in that 9/11 was an inside job, not done by al Qaeda at all, but it seems as though the assassination of Rashad was carried out by a rogue individual who firmly believed the Quran should not be corrupted, not a CIA agent.

It's not really right to say it was done by al Qaeda, for al Qaeda itself is just an organization of mujaheddin around the world... Any and all terrorists can be called "al Qaeda", by their broad definition.

Bahman

Peace Nimnimak,

Why do you assume that the titles were inspired by the god?

No I am not talking about initials or words. I am talking about geometric decorations. Are you saying that you never saw the decorations in a typical printed copy of the quran? Here is scanned page where I higlighted the title of the chapter and the decorations found at the beginning of each chapter with red circles

http//i38.tinypic.com/detxsz.jpg

So again, are the parts highlighted with red circles (the decorations and the chapter title) inspired by the god?

Peace,

Ayman

Peace
If you know then please tell us more , when,who,where?

ayman

If you know then please tell us more , when,who,where?

Peace Bahman,

People started to name the chapters for the purpose of ease of reference. It is interesting that the earliest documented references to chapter names do not come from Islamic sources but from Christian sources. For example, John of Damascus in 730CE in polemics against the quran refers to the chapters named The Women, The Cow, The Table, as well as other names such as the chapter of the Camel of God. Of course, there is currently no chapter by that name. The manuscript was probably referring to Chapter 91, where the phrase the camel of god is mentioned. So the Chapter names were around in the early 8th century but were not yet well established.

It is worth noting that what is presently termed Chapter 9 continues the same theme and rhyme of Chapter 8. Also, in early Quranic manuscripts the only separators were the Bismallah so Chapter 8 and 9 were one continuous chapter. It is only via the later chapter names and decorations that they became separated into 2 chapters.

Not sure if this answered your questions. Of course, since we don't have a time maching then some questions cannot be answered with 100% certainty. The only thing I know for sure is that the chapter titles are 100% manmade. Therefore, truly relying only on what is god-given and not manmade, the only possible conclusion is that what is currently Chapter 9 is part of a big Chapter 8 and the great reading only has 113 chapters.

Peace and best regards,

Ayman

good_logic

Peace ayman.

Who collected the Qoran? Who named the chapters? and Who separated sura 8 and sura 9 and gave them two different names?

Peace.

Wilson

Peace.

good logic Who named the chapters? and Who separated sura 8 and sura 9 and gave them two different names?

ayman People started to name the chapters for the purpose of ease of reference. ... So the Chapter names were around in the early 8th century but were not yet well established. ... Of course, since we don't have a time maching then some questions cannot be answered with 100% certainty.

Abdelilah

good_logic

Peace Abdelilah.

Do we just accept that or do we search Qoran for the answer?

Do you accept God collected the Qoran ?( Given instruction of how it should be put together and in what order?)

What does 7228 mean?

Peace.

Wilson

Peace good logic,

Ofcourse.

75 17-18 It is for Us to collect it and relate it. So when We relate it, you shall follow its revelation.

Now do you accept that in the earliest manuscripts the only separator was the bismallah?

Abdelilah

good_logic

Peace Abdelilah.

I am familiar with the verse before. "Relate it "? where did this word come from?

And what about 7228?

Peace.

Wilson

Peace good logic,

"Relate it "? where did this word come from?

Quran A Reformist Translation. You could ask Mr. Y?ksel or Mr. Al-Shaiban why they chose to translate "qur'anahu" this way.

And what about 7228?

7228 This is to ascertain that they have delivered their Lord's messages. He is fully aware of what they have. He has counted the numbers of all things.

1993-94 Every single one in the heavens and the earth is a servant of the Most Gracious. He has encompassed them, and has counted them one by one.

7829 We counted everything in a record.

ayman (in 2004)
"There is mathematical structure in ALL of The God's creation. The God has counted all things (7228, 7829, 1994, etc.), so the mathematical excellence of The Creator is an indisputable truth. It is also a fact that we will never be able to count as accurately as our Lord does.

What I have a problem with is when people remove and change parts of the great reading to make the data fit the desired results. They do it because they are more interested in "miracles" than in the truth. Their tempering is based on verse numbering, which is in itself a later day invention that was not part of the original text. Without the verse numbers, how do you know how many verses the 9th chapter has? How do you know where 91 or 9129 begin and end?"

PS I hope Dr. Ayman doesn't mind me quoting him.

Abdelilah

good_logic

Peace Abdelilah.

If God has counted the number of all things. Then the answer is there. We will know for sure when we understand how to get to the right"count" ie when God guides us to it.

I am certain God created Science and Mathematics to " show" us His proof in all that He has created.
His Qoran contains the Mathematical/Scientific proof?
Peace.

Edip_Yuksel

For those who are interested,

If you send me an EMAIL via YOUR GMAIL account and ask me Runing Like Zebras, I will allow you access to my GMAIL DRIVE where you can download the book for FREE.

The book contains my debate with Ayman and many other critics and skeptics, including Abdul Rahman Lomax, Bilal Phillips, Car Sagan and several other ingrates.

If you are interested in the paperback version, you may order it at

http//www.amazon.com/19-NINETEEN-Signature-Nature-Scripture/dp/0979671590/

Some information about the subject

http//19.org/category/yuksel/19-gods-signature-in-nature-and-scripture/