Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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I agree with Darcus.
Whether or not the Quran contains an intentional mathematical feature put there by its author, its message is forever lasting, therefore, that should be our aim.
Research is crucial, third party criticism even more so; but we must resist any temptation of diverting efforts and protracting debate.
I happen to believe that such a mathematical feature exists and that it has been placed there by its author. However, in all my years on this forum, I have not engaged in a single debate regarding this issue, and I refuse to be lured into one.
My efforts are better spent elsewhere.
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Peace Darcus,
Only those who believe in Code 19 care. Those who don't agree with it naturally don't care. Personally, I don't care about Code 19 no more than I care about Hadiths or other falsehoods. In fact, much like Sunnis who never contest that Bukhari shared only a small percentage out of hundreds of thousands of Hadiths, in the course of our debate Edip never, not even once, contested that Khalifa only shared a small percentage of his trials that were successful and he hid thousands of failed trials. Had Khalifa shared all his trials then everyone would have been able to see right away that the success to failure ratio is about 1 in 19, which is the natural occurrence of 19 divisibles in any random sample, and no one would have wasted any time on Code 19.
Peace,
Ayman
Ayman again is repeating his deceptive debate and diatribe.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of Chapters in the Quran are 114, exactly 19x6. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the opening statement of all chapters except one has exactly 19 letters. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of chapters between the only missing Basmala and the only missing Basmala are exactly 19 chapters. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
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No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number 19 is only mentioned in chapter 74 (which starts with the word Muddathir, the Hidden one), remained hidden by God's leave until 1974, exactly 19x74 lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic and historic facts.
There are numerous of such facts, yet there must exist some arrogant ingrates in order the prophecy of 19 in chapter 74 to come true. See 7431.
Here is my challenge to you Ayman, and I will post it in other forums and groups
I will meet you anywhere in the USA and Canada, face to face for a live debate. Or, I will pay for your trip and invite you to a studio for a professional recording of our debate. I will pay for all the cost involved. I will expose your distortion and deception. From my own experience, I have learned that the best way to expose falsehood is to subject them to Socratec Dialouge. We will record our live debate and put on the internet so that people will hear both sides in a dynamic debate.
I hope you will not try to find excuse to escape such a challenge. You have nothing to fear, since those appreciate 19 have not hurt even the pinkie of deniers. If there is one who is justified to be concerned about his safety is me, and I do not care since I put my trust in God fully and I do not have an iota of fear to be a witness for His message.
Peace,
EdipAn excerpt from the appendix of Quran a Reformist Translation
A Great Prophecy is Fulfilled and the Secret is Unveiled
The miraculous function of the number 19 prophesized in Chapter 74 was unveiled in 1974 through a computerized analysis of the Quran. Though, in retrospect, the implication of 19 in Chapter 74 traditionally called Hidden One, were obvious, it remained a secret for 1406 (19x74) lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. Ironically, the first words of the Chapter 74, The Hidden One, was revealing, yet the code was a divinely guarded gift allocated to the computer generation; they were the one who would need and appreciate it the most. As we have demonstrated in various books, hundreds of simple and complex algorithms, we witness the depth and breath of mathematical manipulation of Arabic, an arbitrary human language, to be profound and extraordinary.
This is the fulfillment of a Quranic challenge (178. While the meaning of the Quranic text and its literal excellence was kept, all its units, from chapters, verses, words to its letters were also assigned universally recognizable roles in creation of mathematical patterns. Since its discovery, the number 19 of the Quran and the Bible has increased the faith of many believers, has removed doubts in the minds of many People of the Book, and has caused discord, controversy and chaos among those who have traded the Quran with men-made sectarian teachings. This is indeed a fulfillment of a Quranic prophecy (7430-31).
Various verses of the Quran mention an important miracle that will appear after its revelation.
1020 They say, "If only a sign was sent down to him from His Lord." Say, "The future is with God, so wait, and I will wait with you."
2137 The human being is made of haste. I will show you My signs; do not be in a rush.
380 In the name of God, the Gracious, the Compassionate.
381 S90, and the Quran that contains the Reminder.
382 Indeed, those who have rejected are in false pride and defiance.
383 How many a generation have We destroyed before them. They called out when it was far too late.
384 They were surprised that a warner has come to them from among themselves. The ingrates said, "This is a magician, a liar."
385 "Has he made the gods into One god? This is indeed a strange thing!"
386 The leaders among them went out "Walk away, and remain patient to your gods. This thing can be turned back."
387 "We never heard of this from the people before us. This is but an innovation."
388 "Has the remembrance been sent down to him, from between all of us!" Indeed, they are doubtful of My reminder. Indeed, they have not yet tasted My retribution.
3887 "It is but a reminder for the worlds."
3888 "You will come to know its news after awhile."
4153 We will show them Our signs in the horizons, and within themselves, until it becomes clear to them that this is the truth. Is it not enough that your Lord is witness over all things?
The beginning of Chapter 25 refers to the arguments of the opponents who denied the divine nature of the Quran
254 Those who rejected said, "This is but a falsehood that he invented and other people have helped him with it; for they have come with what is wrong and fabricated."
255 They said, "Tales of the people of old, he wrote them down while they were being dictated to him morning and evening."
The awaited miracle, the hidden mathematical structure
The subsequent verse gives an enigmatic answer to the assertion of those who claimed that the Quran is manmade.
256 Say, "It was sent down by the One who knows the secrets in the heavens and the earth. He is always Forgiving, Compassionate."
How can "knowing the secret" constitute an answer for those who assert that the Quran is Muhammad's work? Will the proof or evidence of the divine authorship of the Quran remain a secret known by God alone? Or, will the antagonists be rebuffed by that divine mystery? If there should be a relationship between the objection and answer, then we can infer from the above verse that a SECRET will demonstrate the divine nature of the Quran.
The miracle promised throughout the Quran might have been destined to appear after Muhammad's death
1338 We have sent messengers before you and We have made for them mates and offspring. It was not for a messenger to come with any sign except by God's leave, but for every time there is a decree.
1339 God erases what He wishes and affirms, and with Him is the source of the book.
1340 If We show you some of what We promise them or if We let you pass away, for you is only to deliver, while for Us is the reckoning.
The last phrase of verse 1340 quoted above is interesting, The meaning of this phrase becomes clearer after the discovery of Code 19, since the Arabic word "HeSaaB" refers to both the "day of judgment" and "numerical computation." * The deliberate use of multi-meaning words is very common in the Quran. For instance, the word "AaYah" occurs 84 times in the Quran and in all occurrences it means "miracle," "sign" or "law." However, its plural form "AaYAat" also means "revelation" or "verses of the Quran." This unique usage equates minimum three verses of the Quran (in Arabic, a different form is used for duality) with miracle. It also pulls our attention to the parallelism between God's signs/laws in the universe and God's revelation in human language they share the same source and the same truth. In the following verse the plural word "AaYAat" is used not to mean "revelation" but "miracle, sign or physical manifestation"
6158 Do they wait until the angels will come to them, or your Lord comes, or some signs from your Lord? The day some signs come from your Lord, it will do no good for any person to acknowledge if it did not acknowledge before, or it gained good through its acknowledgement. Say, "Wait, for we too are waiting."
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No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of Chapters in the Quran are 114, exactly 19x6.
there are 113 chapters in quran and not 114. besides how useful is code 19 that you have created a new sect and another idol called code 19?
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Salamun alaikum,
Brother Edip. You are correct, the numbered items do indeed exist. That is great. However, is there, in your opinion a concerted effort by individuals to provide an 'anti-19' website, or call it propaganda to promote that? I don't see any. There is, however plenty of 'pro-19' material available all over the net, included in the translation you had a part in.
I don't think that a debate with Ayman will achieve anything. I did a short time ago contact Dr Zakir Naik to see if he would be willing to have a live debate with monotheists such as yourself, however after they researched you - he declined. I personally believe we have to engage the sunnis at THEIR game, on TV, publicly showing that they don't have a leg to stand on. Instead, we have this polarisation between our own about 19 - which to be honest is something I personally dislike. The 19 issue to me is something as I have stated before of the Mutashabiha, and not Muhkhamat, so I don't want to be of those who debate the 'oft-repeated' seeking to derive meaning and focus on the others instead.
I don't mean to represent Ayman or yourself, I have the great respect for both of you as I do for other active members of the God-Alone movement, but please, you are brothers and should not be wasting your considerable intellects on this issue. Remember that the enemies of Islam will use this to serve their needs to drive a wedge into our movement. Yes, we have various views, but that is our strength, and a weakness. We must learn to agree on some basic fundamentals and then allow ourselves the freedom to interpret the mutashabiha as we please.
With love and respect.
d -
there are 113 chapters in quran and not 114. besides how useful is code 19 that you have created a new sect and another idol called code 19?
This is your excuse and I have no doubt you will regret it in the Day of Judgment.
Then, you must be thinking that most of the Sunni and Shiite scholars of the past and present have conspired with us to prove the number 19? What about all the Quran manuscripts that separate chapter 9 from 8?
Peace
Edip -
This is your excuse and I have no doubt you will regret it in the Day of Judgment.
You've just proved that you follow a new sect and worship your idol, everyday i here such stupid talk that if you don?t follow hadith of bukhari you will regret it in the day of judgement.. if you don?t worship our black idol you are gonna regret it. sure, if you people are the judge that day? D
Then, you must be thinking that most of the Sunni and Shiite scholars of the past and present have conspired with us to prove the number 19?
you know i?m not surprised, in our country all these sunni sects keep fighting with each other over small differences of how should they pray blah blah, but they all have full consensus over all their anti-quranic laws like ?stoning to death? ?death of apostate? ?marriage with minor? etc
What about all the Quran manuscripts that separate chapter 9 from 8?
Peace
EdipI see, so that is you proof? Old is gold?
Peace )
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the opening statement of all chapters except one has exactly 19 lettersthe opening statement of all chapters except one has exactly 19 letters
Have you ever counted that they are really 19? If so please give 19 letters in serial seperately to cross verify the claim. Thanks.
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Have you ever counted that they are really 19? If so please give 19 letters in serial seperately to cross verify the claim. Thanks.
No Mazhar. I just parrot someone else's findings, like all Sunnis and Shiites do. It is very difficult for me to count 19 letters! I am not a genius.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace,
...
exactly 19x74 lunar years after the revelation of the Quran.
Exactly what year/month was Qur'an revealed, what was the first verse, and last verse?
Provide source please.
There are numerous of such facts...
A Great Prophecy is Fulfilled and the Secret is UnveiledThe miraculous function of the number 19 prophesized in Chapter 74 was unveiled in 1974 through a computerized analysis of the Quran.
This is your excuse and I have no doubt you will regret it in the Day of Judgment.
Regret it in the Day of Judgment? You like computers, want to see a miracle?
Let?s code last 7 words you wrote?
A B C D E F G H I J K L M N O P Q R S T U V W X Y Z
1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26? Regret ? 18 5 7 18 5 20
? It ? 9 20
? In ? 9 14
? The ? 20 8 5
? Day ? 4 1 25
? Of ? 15 6
? Judgment ? 10 21 4 7 13 5 14 2018 + 5 + 7 + 18 + 5 + 20
- 9 + 14
- 9 + 20
- 20 + 8 + 5
- 4 + 1 + 25
- 15 + 6
- 10 + 21 + 4 + 7 + 13 + 5 + 14 + 20
= 303
FACT 1974 303 1974 = 19 x 1039106946
Word sequence 185718520 920 914 2085 4125 156 1021471351420
9128
9129Append total front and end to GV of last two verses of chapter 9 to see it is a multiple?
303
301004 3112040 20060630 4050 15080602040 707107 7030105 401705040040 82001090 7030102040 213040640501050 2006680 20081040 9
80150 40063061 8010030 860210 130305 3011305 1301 56 7030105 40062030400 656 2002 13070200300 130709001040 9
303
= 19 x ...Of course it would not be a miracle unless this was also a multiple...
1974 303 1974
301004 3112040 20060630 4050 15080602040 707107 7030105 401705040040 82001090 7030102040 213040640501050 2006680 20081040 9
80150 40063061 8010030 860210 130305 3011305 1301 56 7030105 40062030400 656 2002 13070200300 130709001040 9
1974 303 1974
= 19 x ...Calculator http//www.markknowsnothing.com/cgi-bin/calculator.cgi
Of course if we append the word sequence to front and end it is also a multiple...
185718520 920 914 2085 4125 156 1021471351420
301004 3112040 20060630 4050 15080602040 707107 7030105 401705040040 82001090 7030102040 213040640501050 2006680 20081040 9
80150 40063061 8010030 860210 130305 3011305 1301 56 7030105 40062030400 656 2002 13070200300 130709001040 9
185718520 920 914 2085 4125 156 1021471351420
= 19 x ...Of course when written backwards it is a multiple! bravo
1021471351420 156 4125 2085 914 920 185718520
301004 3112040 20060630 4050 15080602040 707107 7030105 401705040040 82001090 7030102040 213040640501050 2006680 20081040 9
80150 40063061 8010030 860210 130305 3011305 1301 56 7030105 40062030400 656 2002 13070200300 130709001040 9
1021471351420 156 4125 2085 914 920 185718520
= 19 x ...Go-ahead flip around the 7 words or 36 digits anyway you like, try making it NOT a multiple!
FACT that is factorial of 36 or tredecillion multiples or facts! jedi
371993326789901217467999448150835200000000http//www.numberempire.com/factorialcalculator.php
million 10^6
billion 10^9
trillion 10^12
quadrillion 10^15
quintillion 10^18
sextillion 10^21
septillion 10^24
octillion 10^27
nonillion 10^30
decillion 10^33
undecillion 10^36
duodecillion 10^39
tredecillion 10^42Have fun with numbers! peace
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Have fun with numbers! peace
It is interesting that you wasted your time with manipulating numbers in arbitrary fashion to prove that you have no clue what you are rejecting. What you are doing has been done in last 20 years by many doomsday prophets and overacting admirers of the number 19. I have numerous times confronted them exposed the arbitrariness in their calculation.
Aside your arbitrary and silly calculations, you are demonstrating lack of appreciation of the relationship between the discovery time of the miracle, the code and the chapter where it is mentioned. This simple to understand and yet impossible to imitate prophecy will continue to haunt you and those who are described by verses 625 and 7146. You might be able to confuse some people by likening your childish arbitrary numerical juggling to the extraordinary mathematical system of the Quran, but you will never be able to imitate such a prophecy.
You will indeed regret your ingrate and arrogant attitude against "one of the greatest."
Peace,
Edip -
You will indeed regret your ingrate and arrogant attitude against "one of the greatest."
You have to be kidding; most of your nineteen stuff is plane-jane simple manipulation for the naive. Embarrassing to see a grown man and involved in education post ridiculous nonsense. As for the one of the greatest; seems you don't appreciate that during watching skiing I was able to find enough multiples from your rant as their are close to the number of estimated electrons in the whole known universe - tredecillion 10^42!
Recommend staying away from parroting what you call your pathetic evidence for a code away from the math community or anyone with a few brain cells even. O' and the warning -- reminds me of the missionary freaks in the streets and subways; believe in code to be saved!
take care,
N, the pen!
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No Mazhar. I just parrot someone else's findings, like all Sunnis and Shiites do. It is very difficult for me to count 19 letters! I am not a genius.
Peace,
EdipWhen you say parrot then how can you use the word "findings". May be that was a deceptive statement by a liar. You quote and count numbers in trillions and yet say difficult for me to count 19. If you really dont think in the heart of your heart that RK and his 19 is merely a fraud, please count the letters of first verse to see, are they 19.
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Peace Edip,
Ayman again is repeating his deceptive debate and diatribe.
I actually posted this almost a year ago. You still haven't come out and courageously and honestly shared the complete truth about Kahlifa's failed trials with everyone. Just tell everyone what were his failed trials or at least tell us how many they were and then let people decide what is trivial and what is not. Why hide this incovenient truth? What are you afraid of? I think that you know as much as I do that revealing this truth would spell the doom of Code 19.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of Chapters in the Quran are 114, exactly 19x6. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the opening statement of all chapters except one has exactly 19 letters. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of chapters between the only missing Basmala and the only missing Basmala are exactly 19 chapters. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic fact.
...You could also just as easily say "no other trials would trivialize the fact that the number of words in Chapter 1 are 31" and then go on and build a code 31 based on sharing successful trials and hiding failed ones. One could also say "no other trials would trivialize the fact that the opening chapter has 7 verses" and then build a Code 7 the same way. One could also say "no other trials would trivialize the fact that the opening chapter has 139 letters" an then build a Code 139 the same way, etc. etc. ad infinitum...
For you "trivial" means not 19 divisible. For me, "trivial" means that the ratio of successes to failures is in line with the natural probability. For example, if for every successful trial you got 18 failures then your 19 divisible is trivial no matter if you decorate it with words like "fact" and "exactly". This is why you need to add those meaningless words to divert attention, just like Khalifa did.
No other trials would trivialize the fact that the number 19 is only mentioned in chapter 74 (which starts with the word Muddathir, the Hidden one), remained hidden by God's leave until 1974, exactly 19x74 lunar years after the revelation of the Quran. But, those who are well-described by 7146 tried and will continue to try to find an excuse, any excuse to reject this well known Quranic and historic facts.
But you have no idea when the great reading was revealed to begin with. The exact date or even inexact date is not a well known historic fact. It is only so in your imagination.
There are numerous of such facts, yet there must exist some arrogant ingrates in order the prophecy of 19 in chapter 74 to come true. See 7431.
All those facts that I presented are just as much "fact" as what you presented. How come those are not "fact" for you? Because for you subconsiously "fact" only means "19 divisible", which is absurd to say the least and may be the sign of obssessive fixation.
Here is my challenge to you Ayman, and I will post it in other forums and groups
I will meet you anywhere in the USA and Canada, face to face for a live debate. Or, I will pay for your trip and invite you to a studio for a professional recording of our debate. I will pay for all the cost involved. I will expose your distortion and deception. From my own experience, I have learned that the best way to expose falsehood is to subject them to Socratec Dialouge. We will record our live debate and put on the internet so that people will hear both sides in a dynamic debate.
I hope you will not try to find excuse to escape such a challenge. You have nothing to fear, since those appreciate 19 have not hurt even the pinkie of deniers. If there is one who is justified to be concerned about his safety is me, and I do not care since I put my trust in God fully and I do not have an iota of fear to be a witness for His message.Edip, I have a much more useful, simpler and easier challenge for you that will actually make a difference in the course of history and how our grand children will look back at us.
Here is what Khalifa wrote at the end of Appendix 24
I acknowledge with thanks the valuable contributions of Mahmoud
Ali Abib, Gatut Adisoma, Abdullah Arik, Ihsan Ramadan, Lisa Spray,
and Edip Yuksel. Some of the astounding mathematical facts
presented in this Appendix were discovered by these hard working
researchers at Masjid Tucson.From Khalifa's words, it seems that he used assistance from those six people to find successful trials to include in Appendix 24. Unfortunately, since Khalifa took his secret about his failed trials with him to the grave then right now our only chance to find out about the failed trials rests on the good conscious of those individuals. I am afraid that after what is hopefully a long and prosperous life all of them will also eventually take their secret with them to the grave and we will never find out the truth about those hidden failed trials. As you may know, I have tried to guess at the failed trials based on the patterns of how the trials were being changed to achieve the successful result. My theory is that every change in a trial's method is a result of trying the previous methods and not getting a 19 divisible. Based on this theory, I listed some of the estimated failed trials here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598414
However, although my theory is sensible, there is no substitute for the testimony of an actual eye witness to those trials.
You have now, at this very moment, a historic opportunity to come out and be that witness who testifies the whole truth. This is not for me or you, for we are old and may already be set in our ways. I implore you for our children and grand children. Let them look back at us, at this time, and see that we testified the whole truth even when it was against us. More importantly, let them know that we provided them with the whole truth about both the successes and failures relating to Appendix 24 because we trusted that they will make the right choice and we did not rob them of the opportunity to make that choice by taking the whole truth to the grave with us.
Peace,
EdipPeace,
Ayman -
The wholde debate is mockery regarding failed attempts or trials. RK assisted by Edip Yuksel said certain things available on record. That is to be evaluated and proved wrong. According to their own base 19 they deliberately concealed many facts which are exact multiple of 19. RK was a Munafiq and a Munafiq lies. The best advice is this
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.145.gif
Undoubtedly the abode for Muna'fi'qeen will be in the lowest/worst part/class of Hell-Prison.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.145a.gif
and you will never find for them as helping one;http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.146.gif
except for those, who returned repenting and they perfected themselves, i.e. restrained and restricted themselves with Allah and they purified/made their conduct/way of life sincerely and exclusively for Allah , then for this reason they are along with the true believers .
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Mazhar You are incapable of even understanding a simple sarcastic statement made by me (see above), and you are even incapable of acknowledging that there are 19 letters in Bismillah. So, you do not help Ayman's cause of rejecting one of the greatest signs. Ayman is much clever and deceptive than you. So, let him defend those who wish to regress (7437).
Peace,
Edip -
Mazhar You are incapable of even understanding a simple sarcastic statement made by me (see above), and you are even incapable of acknowledging that there are 19 letters in Bismillah. So, you do not help Ayman's cause of rejecting one of the greatest signs. Ayman is much clever and deceptive than you. So, let him defend those who wish to regress (7437).
Peace,
EdipAnd I am asking it factually. Please enumerate the consonants of the first verse seperately to know what RK's borrowed computer understood and he never found time to physically verify by taking computer as his ilaha. May be you find that incorrect and start reading from begining. Qur'aan leads to the Path heading towards the True Sustainer Lord.
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Sorry to interrupt but
I have a question that I want edip to answer.
1)What will happen to a person who has a weak belief in code 19 but can't verify it due to lack of knowledge. Would that be blind faith? -\
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The wholde debate is mockery regarding failed attempts or trials. RK assisted by Edip Yuksel said certain things available on record. That is to be evaluated and proved wrong. According to their own base 19 they deliberately concealed many facts which are exact multiple of 19. RK was a Munafiq and a Munafiq lies. The best advice is this
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.145.gif
Undoubtedly the abode for Muna'fi'qeen will be in the lowest/worst part/class of Hell-Prison.
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.145a.gif
and you will never find for them as helping one; except for those, who returned repenting and they perfected themselves, i.e. restrained and restricted themselves with Allah and they purified/made their conduct/way of life sincerely and exclusively for Allah , then for this reason they are along with the true believers .Judge not, lest you be judged, condemn not and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Peace Edip, it is the immutable system of God.