Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

[unknownuser]

Peace Ayman and David

I liked your posts and learned important stuff. I have also criticized code 19.
Check out one of my past threads in this forum

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16379.0

[noble]

Peace All,
Why would Allah need a code, any code to show that His Dhikr has been preserved as He set up and promised He will do.
To need a code confirmation shows a sign of insecurity, is Allah insecure about His ability to preserve his Message?
These were some of the questions that led me to disbelieve in the 19 hoax...
not to say that it would have been such a weak and easy to counterfeit code

[darcus]

Salamun alaikum,

In my opinion, to every endeavour and search for knowledge, as soon as you stop being objective and start having confirmation bias, you are lost.

Try this yourselves - key in "Islam is evil" and try "Islam is good" you will get confirmation of both - it then becomes easy to ignore the other because you have found what you were looking for.

All being said, we still need to unite around the Quran. We need to strengthen ourselves as the muslim world I am sure will follow once we have a significant presence. Our variety of beliefs but common rallying around the mukhamat should be sufficient for us to move forward. The world needs an Islamic Reformation...

peace
d

[ayman]

Peace David,

Unfortunately, that is how many kind-hearted people get trapped. They know that the traditional practices are wrong, but they don't know that there is truth beyond Khalifa, the "purifying messenger." They start off wanting to follow the reading alone (al-quran wahdah), and they end up wasting their lives chasing 19.

This is what I find ironic. Practically speaking, Khalifa and his followers actually follow traditional practices to the same degree as your average sectarian. For example, if you ran into Khalifa during his pilgrimage to Mecca you would have seen him do the same pagan rituals from the mindless spinning around a stone cube to the idiotic stoning of the devils' pillars. Ironically, Khalifa claimed that he received his "messengership" while he was on this very pilgrimage to Mecca. It seems that the prophets were in such great awe, joy, and respect of his presence that they neglected to tell him that stoning some pillars is idiotic. Perhaps he should have asked some useful questions instead of asking about some guy who looked like him ) . Seriously, such fixation on the superficial looks is exactly the same attitude as the most dogmatic sectarians who are obsessed with "looking like" the prophet.

Khalifa on the surface rejected Hadiths but he only rejected the silly Hadiths such as the fly dipping and camel urine drinking Hadiths that sectarian don't really follow or believe in anyway. In practical observable reality, despite claiming to reject Hadiths, Khalifa was more extreme in believing Hadiths than even the thickest bearded Mullah. He used the Hadith casting doubt on 9128-129 as the starting point for conducting his numerology and delete 9128-129. Not even the most ardent supporter of Hadiths would dare to physically delete anything from the great reading starting from a Hadith.

So for all practical intents and purposes, there is no difference between Khalifa and his followers and your average dogmatic bearded Sunni. Their rituals are the same. Their infatuation with miracles, holy men and their superficial looks are the same. Their use of Hadiths as a starting point for their preconceptions about the great reading is excatly the same. They also both believe in Code 19. In fact, many sectarians have learned Khalifa's tricks and are doing the same exact numerology that he did. Even Al-Azhar is now playing Khalifa's game and has recently authorized and blessed Code 19 and gave a distinctive award to a team of Code 19 hunters

http//www.almasry-alyoum.com/printerfriendly.aspx?ArticleID=61549

Here is a very rough translation of the Arabic into English from Google Translate

http//translate.google.com/translate?js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=1&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.almasry-alyoum.com%2Fprinterfriendly.aspx%3FArticleID%3D61549&sl=ar&tl=en

So as I said, for all practical intents and purposes there is really no difference in attitude between 19ers and sectarians. Both are equally misguided and the sectarian's similar belief in Code 19 hasn't made them more guided. The only difference I see is that 19ers believe that Khalifa was a messenger. I don't think that I need to say more.

Peace,

Ayman

[david_rs_aitken]

Peace everyone,

Lest anyone think that Ayman is just talking off the top of his head, here is the relevant evidence of RE-PACKAGED TRADITIONALISM from Khalifa's translation. As Ayman noted, Khalifa did add his own twists

Khalifa - Appendix 15

...must be observed during the four Sacred Months - Zul-Hijjah, Muharram, Safar, & Rabi I (12th, 1st, 2nd, 3rd months)... ...the male pilgrim wears seamless sheets of material... ...upon arrival at the Sacred Mosque in Mecca, the pilgrim walks around the Kabah seven times...
...21 pebbles are picked up for the symbolic stoning of Satan at Mina....
...stoning ceremonies symbolize rejection of Satan's polytheism and are done by throwing seven pebbles at each of three stations...
...pilgrim then returns to Mecca and observes a farewell circumvolution of the Ka`bah seven times...

Khalifa - Appendix 2

During my Hajj pilgrimage to Mecca, and before sunrise on Tuesday, Zul-Hijjah 3, 1391, December 21, 1971, I, Rashad Khalifa, the soul, the real person, not the body, was taken to some place in the universe where I was introduced to all the prophets as God's Messenger of the Covenant. I was not informed of the details and true significance of this event until Ramadan 1408.

What I witnessed, in sharp consciousness, was that I was sitting still, while the prophets, one by one, came towards me, looked at my face, then nodded their heads. God showed them to me as they had looked in this world, attired in their respective mode of dress. There was an atmosphere of great awe, joy, and respect.

Except for Abraham, none of the prophets was identified to me. I knew that all the prophets were there, including Moses, Jesus, Muhammad, Aaron, David, Noah, and the rest. I believe that the reason for revealing Abraham's identity was that I asked about him. I was taken aback by the strong resemblance he had with my own family - myself, my father, my uncles. It was the only time that I wondered, "Who is this prophet who looks like my relatives?" The answer came "Abraham." No language was spoken. All communication was done mentally.

..."Lo, I am sending my messenger to prepare the way before me; and suddenly there will come to the temple the Lord whom you seek and the messenger of the covenant whom you desire. Yes, he is coming, says the Lord of hosts. But who will endure the day of his coming? And who can stand when he appears? For he is like the refiner's fire, or like the fuller's lye."

Khalifa - Appendix 24

...I cite and reproduce here the classic reference AL ITQAAN FEE 'ULUM AL QURAN by Jalaluddin Al-Suyuty, Al-Azhareyyah Press, Cairo, Egypt, 1318 AH, Page 59...

<< Ali was asked "Why are you staying home?" He said, "Something has been added to the Quran, and I have pledged never to put on my street clothes, except for the prayer, until the Quran is restored." >>

...we realize that the false injections, 9128-129, were always suspect. For example, we read in Bukhary's famous Hadith, and Al-Suyuty's famous Itqaan, that every single verse in the Quran was verified by a multiplicity of witnesses "except Verses 128 and 129 of Sura 9; they were found only with Khuzeimah Ibn Thaabet Al-Ansaary."

If anyone were to write a detailed exposition on this sort of re-packaged traditionalism, they could call it MANUFACTURING DISSENT. The evil influences of this world love false reformers, because anyone who attempts authentic reform would seem crazy. It's like saying, If Khalifa is a purifying reformer, anyone beyond him would be nuts! In truth, Khalifa gave "quran alone" a bad name, because he practiced nothing of the sort. I should not defend his followers.

Peace,

-David R. S. Aitken

[RA786]

I Personnally Like Kalifah, Though I've never met him.
I mean judging him by the audio/video/writtings...it seems like he was a cool guy.

I think He did Alot for the Quran Alone Movement. It was really one of the 1st times that America (non-muslims) were exposed to a new side of Islam that they were unfamiliar with. The Website Masjid Tuscan and submission.org was actually the 1st that I found..which later lead me here.

I think it would be incorrect to blame so much on kalifah and basicallly say he is lower than dirt. His work I feel was good and amounted to much in my eyes.
Whether there were errors or not, He to me was a Muslim man who wanted to show people there was more then tradionalist/hadithist Islam.
and at least for America...He did.

Reffereing to His Dream....Im not going to judge him and say that he is Lieing or anything. Maybe He really did meet with the Prophets. Perhaps he Astral-Projected or was in REM Sleep and it was some kind of Spiritual Dream...I think we are all capable of many things when we sleep.
(Read Brother Abdun Noor's Article about the Pineal Gland and Muhammad btw)

the Only thing I may have against Kalaifah, is that I think that to a point...There may have been some kind of Self-Grandizement.
When he said something along the lines of [he represents the 2nd comming of jesus, the al-mahdi, etc).
I dont know what he ment by that, and it sounds awfully odd. I dont think i would say that.

if we are going to sit here and say How incredibly HORRABLE,DISQUSTING,EVIL,etc...Rashad Khalifah was...
I would rather say...I dont think he was that bad at all.

I mean...At least he wasnt Jim Jones, or David Korseh, or Charles Manson.
On the Cult Leader Scale... I dont even think he'd pass. He'd probabily be a -5! rotfl whats the worse thing hes Done?
You'd reply.... Fake Messengership and Fake a Mathamatical Code...
Okay...that would be bad...no doubt...but at least he didnt kill tons of people have sex with millions of kids and get them drugged up.
Not too bad for a "Supposed" Cult Leader. laugh

[hope4]

Selam RA786

I like what you said and it reminds me of this verse from the Quran

4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for
they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other
women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock
one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the
name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does
not repent, then these are the transgressors.

Peace

[ayman]

Peace RA786,

if we are going to sit here and say How incredibly HORRABLE,DISQUSTING,EVIL,etc...Rashad Khalifah was...
I would rather say...I dont think he was that bad at all.
I mean...At least he wasnt Jim Jones, or David Korseh, or Charles Manson.

It is not about Khalifa. It is about 7431 showing us empirical proof through the attitude of people who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19. Khalifa is simply an example of those people. But the same applies to all avid Code 19 hunters who get aroused out of 19 divisibles. Seeing that those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19 are actually unappreciative of the great reading and have a disease in their heart/mind is what 7431 is about. It is abundantly clear that Khalifa (or anyone like him) is a perfect example of 7431 in action. This realization is what strengthens the faith of those who were given the book and those who have faith.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Hope4,

I like what you said and it reminds me of this verse from the Quran
4911 O you who believe, let not any people ridicule other people, for
they may be better than they. Nor shall any women ridicule other
women, for they may be better than they. Nor shall you mock
one another, or call each other names; miserable indeed is the
name of wickedness after attaining faith. And anyone who does
not repent, then these are the transgressors.

7431 makes it clear that those who are attracted to counting 19 are unappreciative. It also clealy states that those unappreciative and those who have a disease in their hearts/minds would ask "what did the god intend by this example?" Do you think that 7431 is "mocking" and "ridiculing"? Do you think that 7431 applies to some theoretical non-existent people or does it apply to actual people and we can see and empirically verify the truth in 7431? How can you compare verfying the truth in 7431 by matching it to the attitude of people attracted to the temptation of counting 19 to "mocking" and "ridiculing"?

Is pointing out to people that Code 19 or the Hadiths of the fly dipping are nonsense "ridiculing"? Why is pointing out the nonsense in the Hadith of Bukhari OK while pointing it in the Hadith of Khalifa not OK?

If you want to talk about mocking then Khalifa mocked and insulted the intelligence of his followers when he deliberately showed only his successful trials and hid thousands of failed trials and falsified his data. It is not my problem that Khalifa's dream and his obsession with superficial looks is exactly the same ridiculous and illogical attitude of the most extreme sectarians.

I simply don't want my children to read after I am dead Khalifa's nonsense or Bukahri's nonsense and have faith in them and get misguided without having the opportunity to see a logical counterargument.

Peace,

Ayman

[hope4]

Peace Hope4,

7431 makes it clear that those who are attracted to counting 19 are unappreciative. It also clealy states that those unappreciative and those who have a disease in their hearts/minds would ask "what did the god intend by this example?" Do you think that 7431 is "mocking" and "ridiculing"? Do you think that 7431 applies to some theoretical non-existent people or does it apply to actual people and we can see and empirically verify the truth in 7431? How can you compare verfying the truth in 7431 by matching it to the attitude of people attracted to the temptation of counting 19 to "mocking" and "ridiculing"?

Is pointing out to people that Code 19 or the Hadiths of the fly dipping are nonsense "ridiculing"? Why is pointing out the nonsense in the Hadith of Bukhari OK while pointing it in the Hadith of Khalifa not OK?

If you want to talk about mocking then Khalifa mocked and insulted the intelligence of his followers when he deliberately showed only his successful trials and hid thousands of failed trials and falsified his data. It is not my problem that Khalifa's dream and his obsession with superficial looks is exactly the same ridiculous and illogical attitude of the most extreme sectarians.

I simply don't want my children to read after I am dead Khalifa's nonsense or Bukahri's nonsense and have faith in them and get misguided without having the opportunity to see a logical counterargument.

Peace,

Ayman

Selam Ayman

I totally understand you and am greatful to you and others like you who look for sensible, logical proofs and discuss them in a proper manner. What I ment with my post is that sometimes by ridiculing others is not helpful as the focus of the discussion becomes personal rather than focused on the issues in hand. I maybe wrong but thats how I feel. If we stick to the facts and discuss them I feel this is much better. May Allah be pleased with the work you and others are doing on this site.

Peace

[ayman]

Peace Hope4,

I totally understand you and am greatful to you and others like you who look for sensible, logical proofs and discuss them in a proper manner. What I ment with my post is that sometimes by ridiculing others is not helpful as the focus of the discussion becomes personal rather than focused on the issues in hand. I maybe wrong but thats how I feel. If we stick to the facts and discuss them I feel this is much better. May Allah be pleased with the work you and others are doing on this site.

Yes. Unfortunately, when discussing with those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19, they never present all the facts and discuss them. The only reason some people still believe in Code 19 is that the Code 19 hunters are not sharing all the facts. If they presented all the facts (both successful and failed trials of their numerology) then there wouldn't be anything to discuss and everyone would be able to see the truth right away.

Peace,

Ayman

[RA786]

Peace Ayman,

But this is What I am not realizing...

I dont see HOW believeing in the Code 19 would at all be ridiculing or "going against" the Great reading (Quran) in Any way.
In All actuality, I feel it has INCREASED my faith and Love for Islam...(as an addition to the Qurans Great miracles.)

If there is a Group of Quran Aloners who believe in the Code 19...And Believe it is Only 1 of Many of the Great Miracles that are in the Quran that was creaded by Allah Allmighty... How exactly do you justify your claim against them by making allegations that they are Ridiculing the Quran and have a Disease in their Heart?

What Kind of Disease is it?
Quranamathalosis? -a condition where patients believe in a mathamatical miracle that interlocks/protects all of the Quran.
Would you really call that a Disease? it doesnt seem like a disease to me.

Would you say the same thing about someone who believes in the other mircales of the Quran? Such as the Embryology of a Child? the Measrure of Rain and Water cycle? and the Bioluminesence?
All of these are also Scientific Miracles in the Quran in which I too believe however ANY SCIENTIST (who's a non-muslim) WILL tell you that ALL of these Supposed "Quran Miracles of Science" are Flawed, Erronious, manipulated, fake, and Only created to make Some Deluded Mind believe in Miracles of a Supposed GOD.

So whats the difference between them and you Ayman? They say the exact same thing about those miracles.

Here is the Main Questions/Points I would like to Bring up to you Ayman, if Possible.

*1. Muslims Believe the the Quran IS "Protected" by somekind of "Divine Code"/Seal/Lock/etc... And they use this to encourage others to join ISLAM because of this. Muslims Believe Allah (GOD ALMIGHTY) has protected the Quran from being Changed/distorted/deleted..etc...

SO MY QUESTION to you IS A) Do you believe that the Quran is Protected?
B) Can you "PROVE" that the Quran is Protected?

1B- It would seem a little Odd to believe that the Quran IS protected and not being able to Prove so for the simple fact that many people have actually Created their own Qurans. They over the years, have Deleted/Distorted/Tampered/Un-locked/etc.... the Quran.

There are numerious different Qurans in the world are there not?

If a Guy Named Joe Wartime decided one day that He wanted to Take 13 vereses out of the Quran, Then Wrote his Own Vereses...Then took some lyrics from a couple Michael Jackson Records...and then put them into his Book and called it "The Holy Quran"....Then went to a forighn Country that never Heard of the Quran and They read it as such....."WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO HIM"?
Is he going to Burst into Fire? Is Lightning going to strike him? Is Allah Going to Stop him? (I dont know)...

BUT!! What I DO know, is that this in many examples has ALREADY HAPPENED.

*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah talked about when Rashad Khalifah Took out Two Vereses?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has Talked about when some Kaffir Forged a Ayat Called Surah 911 and wrote it himself?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has talked about when you have different Qurans made, and Even going to STILL BE made to this Day that are 100% Different from ANY quran you have? (-Daniel Pips I hear is working on this Project Btw)

SO WHERE IS This Supposed "Lock/Protection/absence of any error or doubt/Seal that was placeed in the Quran?

I believe it to be Mathamatical. Code 19 seems like the most Likley Canidate that was choses by God to be used.
Allah is the master of Creation, Mathamatics, and Science.

So far Code 19 has Given me an Answer as to "What and Where is the Seal/Protection/Code that was talked about in the Quran.

If you have a better Answer Please Share...I am Dying to know. Where this Seal/Protection is and how to varify it. D

[RA786]

Peace Hope4,

Yes. Unfortunately, when discussing with those who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19, they never present all the facts and discuss them. The only reason some people still believe in Code 19 is that the Code 19 hunters are not sharing all the facts. If they presented all the facts (both successful and failed trials of their numerology) then there wouldn't be anything to discuss and everyone would be able to see the truth right away.

Peace,

Ayman

So whats the Truth? That there IS NO Code 19?

*That there is NO Seal/Protection on the Quran?
*That the Quran is Open and Subject to change over time depending on Location/Culture/Society like Every Other Book ever created..

[Edip_Yuksel]

I had discussed this issue in detail with Ayman a few years ago. Those who are interested to hear both sides, please visit the BOOKS section of www.19.org

Peace,
Edip

[david_rs_aitken]

Code 19 seems like the most Likley Canidate that was choses by God to be used. Allah is the master of Creation, Mathamatics, and Science.

The problem with attributing a numerological code to the book of the god is that the god has already descended clarifying signs to protect us from the temptation of numerology.

7426-31 I will cast him in the scorching heat. Do you know what the scorching heat is? It does not spare nor leave anything; obvious to humanity. On it are ninteen, and we have not made associates of the fire except "angels" and we have not made their count except as a temptation for the rejectors - so that those who were given the book would understand, those who had faith would increase in faith, and those who were given the book and those who had faith would have no doubt. ...

Khalifa knew that he was playing games with numbers. In 1973 he released a small book called "Miracle of the Quran Significance of the Mysterious Alphabets" and attracted some attention from Egypt's Akher Saah ( &#1577 (http//www.akhbarelyom.org.eg/). At this point - 1973 - he had not yet been tempted to manipulate his numbers into false multiples of 19. He reported the following

Chapter 2 - ALM - 9465 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 3 - ALM - 5714 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 7 - ALMS - 5349 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 10 - ALR - 2522 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 11 - ALR - 2514 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 12 - ALR - 2405 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 14 - ALR - 1206 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 15 - ALR - 922 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 29 - ALM - 1682 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 30 - ALM - 1261 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 31 - ALM - 823 (not a multiple of 19)
Chapter 32 - ALM - 581 (not a multiple of 19)

In 1974, when he was tempted by 19, he deliberately manipulated the data

Chapter 2 - ALM - 9899 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 3 - ALM - 5662 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 7 - ALMS - 5320 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 10 - ALR - 2489 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 11 - ALR - 2489 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 12 - ALR - 2375 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 14 - ALR - 1197 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 15 - ALR - 912 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 29 - ALM - 1672 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 30 - ALM - 1254 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 31 - ALM - 817 (a falsified multiple of 19)
Chapter 32 - ALM - 570 (a falsified multiple of 19)

Edip is no different. In order to make 1974 the year of his messengers' prophecy, he continues to lie about the basic structure of the reading. He says that the gematrical value of 741-2 is 1974 - a great miracle in his mind (http//19.org/index.php?aid=257). If you apply the innovated gematrical value system to 741-2, the value is actually 1973. Edip added an alif to support his lies.

Numerology can be used to prove anything, including Khalifa's racist hope that the god would wipe out "the Arabs"

http//img708.imageshack.us/img708/9915/19manipulation.png

When you witness the temptation of counting 19, your faith will increase and you will have no doubt. If you're excited by counting 19, then you're being tempted to waste your time on non-existent miracles. May the god protect us from temptation and guide us to study the reading to keep our faces oriented towards truth, not superficial rituals or numerological number games.

Peace,

-David

[RA786]

peace david....

But maybe I am just stupid or something because I SILL dont understand How counting is a temptation.

How would believing in the Code 19 be a temptation? How could simply believeing in a Mircle (either true or false) be a temptation?

Is it A) Shirk?No
B) an Intoxicant? No..
C) a game of Chance? uh...your not really "gambling" so I'd say No.
D)a partner to Allah? No..

So really....How "bad" could it be? and not only that...how do you know that the verese Quoted above is in the exact Context in which you are using it?
I am going to have to look at the Root-words in that verese to see if it is really talking about that in the way you are using it.

Believing that a Rainbow is a Miracle of God is Cool...some will say it is and some say its not.
How is believeing in a Mathamatical not good?

Btw...nobody replyed to my post about a movie I saw.
So I'll post it again here...Let me know what you all think.
The Torah has this Numerology type of Code...Can the same be used for the Quran?
Video Number 2 Torah, Kabbalah, and Numbers.
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=FcN2i9GKsFQ

Link fixed

[Mazhar]

How could simply believeing in a Mircle (either true or false) be a temptation?

What do you think is the Arabic word for 'Miracle" used in the Grand Qur'aan?

[RA786]

What do you think is the Arabic word for 'Miracle" used in the Grand Qur'aan?

The Arabic words fatanoo (&#1575 is derived from the root word fitnah (&#1577, which literally means temptation, or putting someone to the test, or putting someone in a situation where your intention is to cause him/her to fail. It is as the English translation says a trial. It also means trying to create a conflict or trouble, either to someone or between people.

1- According to Google's Online Arabic-English Dictionary, (verb of &#1577 means

enthrall
enchant
captivate
infatuate
spellbind
mesmerize
witch
seduce
tempt
magnetize
ravish
charm
2- According to the Arabic-English dictionary the Hans Wehr dictionary , page 696, means

temptation
trial
charm
charmingness
enchantment
captivation
enticement
infatuation
intrigue
sedition
riot
discord
dissension
3- According to Google's Online Arabic-English Dictionary, means

sedition
temptation
trial
seduction
4- According to the Arabic-English dictionary the Hans Wehr dictionary , page 695, (verb of &#1577 means

to subject to temptation or trials
seduce
tempt
entice
allure
beguile
to enamor
enchant
captivate
enthrall
enrapture
infatuate
charm

Is Miracle = to Fitna?

P.S... Nobody has yet answered if the Quran follows the same Numerology type of System that the Torah has. (as posted in the video).
and I hvent found any opinions.

[ayman]

Peace RA786,

I dont see HOW believeing in the Code 19 would at all be ridiculing or "going against" the Great reading (Quran) in Any way.
In All actuality, I feel it has INCREASED my faith and Love for Islam...(as an addition to the Qurans Great miracles.)

Has it really increased your faith? If so, why are you asking

BUT!! What I DO know, is that this in many examples has ALREADY HAPPENED.
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah talked about when Rashad Khalifah Took out Two Vereses?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has Talked about when some Kaffir Forged a Ayat Called Surah 911 and wrote it himself?
*Where was the Lock/Seal/Protection that Allah has talked about when you have different Qurans made, and Even going to STILL BE made to this Day that are 100% Different from ANY quran you have? (-Daniel Pips I hear is working on this Project Btw)
SO WHERE IS This Supposed "Lock/Protection/absence of any error or doubt/Seal that was placeed in the Quran?

The protection is the god himself. So you are literally asking "where is the god?" This is the kind of question a rejecting aetheist would normally ask. Is this the kind of question that your "increase in faith" led you to?!

The god himself protects the reminder. But the reminder is only there for those who use their intellect to remember. As for those who forgot their own selves and are busy pursuing temptations there is no reminder to begin with to preserve or not preserve.

Let me give you an example of the god's protection. Sectarians, Khalifa and 19ers believed that the word "mecca" in 4824 refers to the city in Saudi Arabia named Mecca. However, when one uses his or her intellect to ponder upon the god's signs and remember then one can easily see that the word "mecca" is actually a common noun that means "destruction", which fits perfectly in the context of war in the passage. So for sectarians, Khalifa and 19ers since they didn't use their intellect to remember then 4824 was not preserved no matter that the letters and words contained in it are preserved. On the other hand for those who have faith, the fact that sectarians willingly or unwillingly were forced to hijack a common noun in the great reading to name their pagan city is empirically verifiable truth that the great reading is preserved. It would have been infinitely easier to insert whatever pagan city name "x" in the great reading. So not only did the rejecter's scheme increased their loss, it actually fired back in their face and increased the faith of those who have faith. So you see the reminder is preserved ONLY for those who remember. As for those who forgot themselves there is no reminder to begin with to preserve or not.

So as in the case of "mecca" where the attitude and actions of the rejecters would actually help those who have faith increase in faith, the same goes for the attitude and actions of the rejecters who are attracted to the temptation of counting 19. We see them hiding the truth about their failed trials and we see them knowingly lie and deceive and falsify and at the end those who follow them and believe in them are not guided and are practically asking "where is the god?" This is because they put their faith in a false code more than they put their faith in the god like those who are emotionally attracted to the pagan Mecca put their faith in traditions more than they put their faith in the god. We see the attitude of Khalifa and his followers and as result our faith in the great reading and in 9128-129 increases. Similarly, we see sectarians attitude and abrogation of the great reading with Hadiths and how they became lost and as a result our faith in the great reading increases.

If there is a Group of Quran Aloners who believe in the Code 19...And Believe it is Only 1 of Many of the Great Miracles that are in the Quran that was creaded by Allah Allmighty... How exactly do you justify your claim against them by making allegations that they are Ridiculing the Quran and have a Disease in their Heart?
What Kind of Disease is it?
Quranamathalosis? -a condition where patients believe in a mathamatical miracle that interlocks/protects all of the Quran.
Would you really call that a Disease? it doesnt seem like a disease to me.

Yes it is a disease. Just ask them about their failed trials and why they are hiding the truth about their failed trials and you will see the disease.

Would you say the same thing about someone who believes in the other mircales of the Quran? Such as the Embryology of a Child? the Measrure of Rain and Water cycle? and the Bioluminesence?
All of these are also Scientific Miracles in the Quran in which I too believe however ANY SCIENTIST (who's a non-muslim) WILL tell you that ALL of these Supposed "Quran Miracles of Science" are Flawed, Erronious, manipulated, fake, and Only created to make Some Deluded Mind believe in Miracles of a Supposed GOD.

The great reading is far superior to any book of science. It is a book that people who try to delete, change or abrogate end up making fools of themselves like sectarians and 19ers. So their attitude inadvertently ends up increasing the faith of those who have faith in it. No book of science can do that.

So whats the difference between them and you Ayman? They say the exact same thing about those miracles.
Here is the Main Questions/Points I would like to Bring up to you Ayman, if Possible.
*1. Muslims Believe the the Quran IS "Protected" by somekind of "Divine Code"/Seal/Lock/etc... And they use this to encourage others to join ISLAM because of this. Muslims Believe Allah (GOD ALMIGHTY) has protected the Quran from being Changed/distorted/deleted..etc...
SO MY QUESTION to you IS A) Do you believe that the Quran is Protected?
B) Can you "PROVE" that the Quran is Protected?

I believe the god himself protects the reminder in the great reading, not some code, not Hadiths, not some "companions" of the prophet, etc.

We are the proof. You and me, our contrasting attitude is the proof. But it is only proof if you are on the right side. Those who remember naturally know that the reminder has been preserved. For those who don't remember, this will be extremely difficult to understand.

1B- It would seem a little Odd to believe that the Quran IS protected and not being able to Prove so for the simple fact that many people have actually Created their own Qurans. They over the years, have Deleted/Distorted/Tampered/Un-locked/etc.... the Quran.
There are numerious different Qurans in the world are there not?
If a Guy Named Joe Wartime decided one day that He wanted to Take 13 vereses out of the Quran, Then Wrote his Own Vereses...Then took some lyrics from a couple Michael Jackson Records...and then put them into his Book and called it "The Holy Quran"....Then went to a forighn Country that never Heard of the Quran and They read it as such....."WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN TO HIM"?
Is he going to Burst into Fire? Is Lightning going to strike him? Is Allah Going to Stop him? (I dont know)...

The god will protect the great reading. If Joe Wartime went through this trouble then he will put things and take out things to serve his own purposes and in the process expose himself as a hypocrite with a disease in his heart. This is what sectarians do anyway everyday in their minds when they abrogate far more than 13 verses and insert lyrics from Bukhari. This is why the reminder is not preserved for those who don't remember the god. On the other hand, the god will remember those who remember him and he will "yusalli" on those who "yusalloo".

I believe it to be Mathamatical. Code 19 seems like the most Likley Canidate that was choses by God to be used.
Allah is the master of Creation, Mathamatics, and Science.
So far Code 19 has Given me an Answer as to "What and Where is the Seal/Protection/Code that was talked about in the Quran.
If you have a better Answer Please Share...I am Dying to know. Where this Seal/Protection is and how to varify it. D

I can only repeat what the god himself said "that he himself will protect the reminder".

On the other hand, any questions and answers about the count of 19 mean that I would have to ask "what did the god intend by this allegory/example?" Just by asking the question you have condemned yourself no matter what illusion of an answer "Code 19 had given you".

Got to go. More on the other replies later.

Peace,

Ayman

[RA786]

Peace RA786,

Has it really increased your faith? If so, why are you asking

Increased my faith as in giving another miracle to the list of miracles that the Quran has.
In my mind, I see it as an Increase in which its benifitial because Athists and Religious people Alike can prove that there is a book that whithstood the hands of time.
There are Many Books that claim to be "Protected". There are many Political Philosophies and Manifestos that have claimed to be superb and infalliable.
However ALL have failed, and every Athiest will Agree.

However, When the Quran is mentioned...that is the difference. It unlike other books and manifestos...actually gives Solutions for Humanity and is Infalliable.
It contains Scientific Miracles but also a Miracle in which it cannot be changed.

If you were to talk to an Athiest...and He says... "How Does a Book become infalliable?"
what would you reply? in all reality...answer this simple Question...HOW does a BOOK become UNCHANGABLE? I would reply by saying...it would have to become Mathamatical. Thats the Only way for a Book to be unchangeable. Right? or not Incorrect?
You can Change Words, Paragraphs, Society, Culture, Language, and even Root-Words overtime.. however the language of Math cannot be changed. Yes or no?

The protection is the god himself. So you are literally asking "where is the god?" This is the kind of question a rejecting aetheist would normally ask. Is this the kind of question that your "increase in faith" led you to?!

The god himself protects the reminder. But the reminder is only there for those who use their intellect to remember. As for those who forgot their own selves and are busy pursuing temptations there is no reminder to begin with to preserve or not preserve.

1. I am NOT asking Where is God like an Athiest. That is an incorrect way of thinking. The only people who say that are actually saying the same thing the jews said on the Mountain asking to See Allah. That is also incorect because The Athiests who Ask that are judging God on somekind of fallable Scale like they would a human. They are really reffereing to some kind of "God" in the sky with a beard and clouds..etc..
   So No, I am NOT asking where is GOD...I asked...WHERE is the QURANIC PROTECTION.

2. Quote from Ayman "The god himself protects the reminder." I agree...that that is equal to say "The God Himself Created the Laws of Life, Physics, and mathamatics....The God Himself Protects the Earth from being to close to the Sun or Moon and The God Himself Creates a Protection (Code) in the Quran.
   So you see....There is Really No Difference between the Two Statements. Whether Allah Himself Protects the Quran.... OR Allah Himself Created the Protection to Protect the Quran Thus is Still Protecting it... There is No difference at all. we are saying the same thing.
   There is a relationship between the Creater (Allah) and the (Creation)...that He Protects (either through Mathamatics, or Other Means in which He Creates it.)

That is to say that When Allah HIMSELF Freeded the Children of Israel ....or Allah HIMSELF Created Moses for the Purpose to Free the Children of Isreal...There is No Difference. Allah Created Both the CHildren of Israel, Moses, the Freedom, and the Oppression, and the Reality in which they Exist.

Yes or No?

Ayman But the reminder is only there for those who use their intellect to remember.

3A) Where does it say in the Quran that The Quranic Protection is Under that Condition that it is Only for those who use their intellect?
3B) If it is Proven that the Quranic Protection IS in fact under that Condition (using intellect to Remember)... Does not Studying the Code 19 not Meet that Criteria you have presented?

I can use that to say this statement The Quranic Mathamatical Miracle is a Reminder that is Only There for those who use their Intellect to remember. I think it would still make sense even in that Context.

Here is what is Troubleing me with what you have said.

If There is a Person who Believes in the Code 19 (Such as Edip), and Does his Islamic Requirements...How has he then "Forgot" the reminder?
I see the Code 19 (If True) as a Blessing. What it means to me is that I now have Proof to show non-muslims that I have in my possession a Boog of Great Wisdom...that will change the Earth...and is Protected (By Allah) and that Protection is varifiable.

Let me give you an example of the god's protection. Sectarians, Khalifa and 19ers believed that the word "mecca" in 4824 refers to the city in Saudi Arabia named Mecca.

I am not well read or really understand this so I will have to study and research this aspect. I will take what you wrote and ponder over it. hmm

I believe the god himself protects the reminder in the great reading, not some code, not Hadiths, not some "companions" of the prophet, etc.

Let me Translate "I believe Allah Himself protects the reminder in the Quran, not some code, not Hadiths, not some companions...."
I too agree that Allah Himself Protects the "Quran"... (in the Quran). You have used the Words "reminder" and "great Reading" interchangable I assume.
Its a little confusing... It would be easier to simply say "Quran".

Again, GOD (ALLAH) protects the Quran (reminder/Mercy/Guidence/Book of Miracles-wisdom/Rules) In the Reminder (Reminder/Mercy/Guidence/Book/of Mircles-wisdom/Rules) So... we are in Agreeance?

Ayman From what you have Wrote...It seems you have put "Code" next to the words "Hadiths, and Companions" as things that you feel do NOT carry the Quranic Protection. HOWEVER, Unlike the other examples you have stated (hadiths,Companions) A "CODE" is not separate from the Quran. A "Code" is not Another Book or Religious Source other than the Quran. A "Code" is NOT a Talmud...or a Hadith...or an Article that was written in Cosmopolitan Magazine.

The Code in which We are Reffereing to is NOT a Separate Source from the Quran...But IS actually (Layed INSIDE the Quran).
Do you understand?

here Let me put it in other terms...

A Hadith Book is Not Connected to the Quran.
A Talmud Book is Not Connected to the Quran.
A Companion of the Prophet is not Connected to the Quran.
A Cosmopolitan Magazine is not Connected to the Quran.
(Meaning you can find them completely Separate from the Quran that is on your Book Shelf)...
BUT the CODE19 IS Connected to the Quran. Like a Two in One. Right?
Theres not a Separte Book called (Code 19) that is Used.... actually Only a QURAN is Used.

We are the proof. You and me, our contrasting attitude is the proof. But it is only proof if you are on the right side. Those who remember naturally know that the reminder has been preserved. For those who don't remember, this will be extremely difficult to understand.

Again I will have to Translate what you are saying so I can understand.

Those who remember naturally know that the QURAN has been preserved. For those who don't remember, this will be extremely difficult to understand.

Those Who remember Naturally know its Preserved? HUH? ??? o
You are Very right Ayman...that IS extremley difficult to understand.
Similar to talking to a christian who believes the Current Bible has been Preserved....and then saying its been because they "Naturally Know" that it is Preserved.
I mean...How does One "Naturally Know" and Naturally "Remember" that the Book is Preserved? that doesnt make any sense.

Heres a Question Ayman.

Edip yuksel... Why would Rashad Khalifah or any and All of the "Code 19ers" Lie?
If The Code 19ers Are Truley "Liers" and are just making up a lie about the Quran haveing a Mathamatical Code in it...
Why? What gain would they really obtain out of it?
It doesnt seem likley. Spening all of this time and energy lieing about something that they know is false.

See unlike Sunni's or Shia's...who have been indocrinated Since Birth for ceneturies and many including Iman's and Scholars may quite possibly really NOT KNOW...
"Code 19ers" are different. it is a new movment, and THEY KNOW.
They must See their ERRORS or See TRUTHS everyday that they Study it.

So, why would they Intentionally Create a Lie in the Islamic Religion that they KNOW is false and Know the Consequences of such actions?
Would someone who Believes in Allah Really Do that? especially knowing the consequences of fabricating lies?

either that Option is True, or in all reality they are really Athiests at heart...and If THAT's the Truth...Why would they waste there time here in the Islamic Religion?...as apposed to living like an Athiest free of All cares or worrys and live life enjoying the wonders that the dunya and shaytan have to offer?
That too doesnt seem likley.

I guess I doubt that Code 19ers are Lying. What Goal would they really Achive by doing this?
did they make Billions of Dollars or something? Do they get Material Weath from the Jinn? Do they get Control over peoples Souls?

Edip Yuksel! are you making Billions? laugh

Humm.... Rashad Khalifah.... I guess all He got out of this "Supposed Elaborate Math Scheme" was a little bit of Local recognition...and an assasination.
Not like the guy made Billions or anything. Most people never even heard of Rashad Khalifa or Edip or code 19.
(Sorry Edip, khalifa, and others...no offense or anything..Im just trying to illustrate that it would seem illogical to Lie about somthing that really didnt make anyone super famous.

So...It would seem MORE likley to me that its Not Something Monetary/Material to lie about...rather it is something True that One Man got Brutally Murdered for and is starting to raise some questions about. It would also seem that it is the most Logical Answer to the QURANIC PROTECTION/Preservation.

Why would an AL-Qaida Terrorist Kill Rashad Khalifa (if he was lying)? Tons of people could have been killed...but Specifically Khalifa was a Threat to the Current Islam.
WHY? What would this mean for AL-Qaida and Traditional Islam?

If Kahlifa was just some Crazy old guy who lies...why would he be such an Important Kill and Threat?
From what I've leaned...ONLY IMPORTANT People Get Killed. (in refference to threats).

Its rather odd that the Death of Rashad Khalifah in 1990 really started to shape how things are to be connected with The US. Islam. War. Spirituality. and the New world Order.

1990-Islamic Terrorists (alQaeda) Kill Rashad.
-from this point on Islamic "AlQaeda" attacks would be on the rise.
1993-World Trade Center Bombings
2001-World Trade Center attaks/911
hmm