Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...
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How do you know God has counted the number of all things, where is the proof? And do you believe God controls everything or are there free entities. How do you know without example there is a purpose to creation. And do you ignore the whole in favour of the particular, because that is what Satan did he focussed on a particular and created a problem out of it, made an issue out of it. Who knows the soldiers of God, and who are the enemies of God.
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(Allah Forgive me If I am incorrect)
For those of you who Do NOT believe the Quran has a mathamatical Code.....I have a Question for you.
How Does Allah Protect His Book from distortion...(As Allah has said that He has placed a Lock/Protection on this Book and Encorurges them to Creat a Book or Surah Like it..)? ???So far I have seen MANY qurans... *In fact Rashad Khalifa has a Quran with out 2 vereses (and he Succeeded)
*There was a Kaff who created another Quran where He created a Totally Different Surah titled 911 as a way to fabricate Islam's Supposed Tie with 911. He was Prvoen guilty...but non the less He Succeeded in Producing a Surah and passing it off as a Quran to many ignorant people.
*Daniel Pipes and many other Anti-Islamic Advicates Also plan or have already suceeded at Re-Creating their Own Politically Correct Quran Where they have deleted Any Vereses that seem Racist,Sexist,or offensive in an effort to re-create Islam to fit their Westernized Globalized Capitalistic Zionistic Satanist Goat masonic Agenda...(its worth noteing who these people work for and their political stance...Daniel Pipes is on the board of Concil for forieghn relavtions and Elite Secrete group)...
So obviously Throughout History...Many people can EASILY Fabricate,Re-create,and delete surah's of the Quran to produce one that They Like.
They have Not been struckdown by lightning ...(yet)...and have succeeded in manipulating Many ignorant people...
So as an Atheist would say....WHERES YOU PROTECTION AT HUH? WHERE is the So-called Protection of the Quran?"I would reply that Allah has many many times said that this Quran is an EMINENT book. And its known as One if not The MOST Glorious Sighn or Miracle Ever to be revealed to mankind....(with a title like that it better Live up to its name )
Imagine a Book that not only contains, Scientific Maricles, Correct History events and names, Amazing Style/speech, But also a Competely Different language that can be read...Imagine.. the Code to be Subliminally Encoded in this Book in numbers...Hebrew and the Torah is known for haveing a Mathamatic code and numberology encoded however...for so long it has been forgotten.
But this Quran that we have...is STILL obtainable.19ers Prove Gods Protection of the Quran by Showing the Math Code...
Quranists I guess Dont Prove God's Protection of the Quran since they dont believe in the Code...
So my question to All those who do not believe in Number 19 Code....How do you believe the Quran is Protected from Distortion?
before you answer that....Ask yourself if you say the SAME EXACT THING that the CHRISTIAN and the JEW will say..... )
(i.e. "Beucase I just Do!....Faith!"the Quran is unlike the Bible and Torah in that it doesnt just Tell you to believe.....rather it PROVES to you God's Sighns and Creativness...and leaves you in a state where you have to choose.
Peace/Salaam
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Peace,
actually when there is a shada do you count it as a double letter?
1,2,3
4,5,6,6,7
8,9,10,10,11,12,13
14,15,16,16,17,18,19and the ALIF on top of mim in not counted.
Peace
If you do not count dagger Alif which is placed here for beautification of the word instead of complete Aleph, what word you will get? Some word different from Arabic and Qur'aan. And another two letters have not been counted by you, it is not one but two at three places. The very first line and premises of RK is false.
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If you do not count dagger Alif which is placed here for beautification of the word instead of complete Aleph, what word you will get? Some word different from Arabic and Qur'aan. And another two letters have not been counted by you, it is not one but two at three places. The very first line and premises of RK is false.
Peace
Peace,
actually when there is a shada do you count it as a double letter?
1,2,3
4,5,6,6,7
8,9,10,10,11,12,13
14,15,16,16,17,18,19and the ALIF on top of mim in not counted.
Peace
It was made on purpose, but I did not get this!
And another two letters have not been counted by you, it is not one but two at three places
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actually when there is a shada do you count it as a double letter?
1,2,3
4,5,6,6,7
8,9,10,10,11,12,13
14,15,16,16,17,18,19Sorry, I did not notice the doubling of digit in your quote. You see this is the illusion caused by digits, while words never create illusion.
So your count is this which is obviously not 19. Thanks.
1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,20,21,22. And this is exclusive of Aleph in Ar-Rahmaan which may take the count to 23. -
How do you know God has counted the number of all things, where is the proof? And do you believe God controls everything or are there free entities. How do you know without example there is a purpose to creation. And do you ignore the whole in favour of the particular, because that is what Satan did he focussed on a particular and created a problem out of it, made an issue out of it. Who knows the soldiers of God, and who are the enemies of God.
Pl quote the reference to which this is the response. Thanks.
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Call me what you like, but having had the age old understanding that the gematric value of besm allah irrahman nirraheem, has been 786, how can you now start back tracking in considering the count of letters in the opening verse of the Quran. I think the rule which the submitters used was to count the pure forms. In preparation of this miracle it was validated by Muhammadans who used to abbreviate the besm allah with 786, if that does not point to 19 letters in it then what do you regard as proof.
God says He has counted the number of all things (722 7+2+2+8 = 19
I will divert from My revelations those who are arrogant on earth, without justification. Consequently, when they see every kind of proof they will not believe. And when
they see the path of guidance they will not adopt it as
their path, but when they see the path of straying they
will adopt it as their path. This is the consequence of
their rejecting our proofs, and being totally heedless
thereof.http//www.submission.org/god-bible.html
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Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
Edip -
Judge not, lest you be judged, condemn not and you will not be condemned. Forgive and you will be forgiven.
Peace Edip, it is the immutable system of God.Dear Submitter
All messengers and prophets were similarly judged and condemned and were even killed. If they followed your advice and hide the truth in order not to be the target of ignorant and arrogant people, then they would be losers with those who compromised their responsibilities to please people.
I am not in the business of pleasing people and receiving praises. I am in the business of telling the truth and calling a spade when I see one.
Peace,
Edip -
Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
EdipPeace Edip,
it is all matter of convention, if you setup a "rule" as "let's count the letter with shadda twice" or "forget about shadda", the result will be different depending on the rules YOU setup.
The same apply for the gematrical values, and so on and so on.An other rule we can change, do you include sourate 1 in the Quran knowing 1587
"And We have bestowed upon thee the Seven Oft-Repeated (verses) and the Grand Qur'an."What I mean is, all the verse numbering in the Reading are man made, and different versions of the Reading give different numbering.
You based all your "19 miracle" on the verse numbering , which is man made, how do you want it to be God's miracle?
Peace
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Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
EdipIt is not a letter but it is certainly an indicator that the letter under it is not one but are two, first still and the other then flowing on to next letter. Qur'aan asks us to use eyes also and not to be blind while reading it. Only blind cant see that these are two letters, and that is the computer programme devised by 19er.
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Dear Herbman,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
Peace,
Ediphow did you help RK when you are ignorant of basic arabic language?
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how did you help RK when you are ignorant of basic arabic language?
Dear RK was least interested in knowing Arabic.
His knowledge of Arabic is this; ?The geometrical value of the word ?Rashad? as written in the Quran is 505, .
He calls these words as his name mentioned in Qur'aan.
The word in 4038
sabilar rasya_d
And interestingly he claims that this is the evidence of him being the messenger. And imagine the gravity that those who consider themselves as intellectuals and keep throwing invitations for debates take it as a concrete proof of him being messenger.
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What I dont understand here is the big problem.
How would believing in the Code 19 theory change or create a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
How also would believing in Rashad Khalifa as a Messenger also be of a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
If anything, I would think there it to be beneficial to the cause.Is this really such a Crucial and Cyclic Debate that needs to continue?
There is no Number 19 nor a rashad Khalifa nor edip nor added to the Shahada after Allah (swt).
Rashad's Messengership does not directly invalidate any monotheistic view or goal does it?
Can or is there any befit that can be gained?What draw back does supporting/believing in this(19/rashad) cause to the Current Quranic movement?
(just curious) -
Salamun alaikum,
RA786. I sympathise. Some believe, some don't.
In my opinion I do not believe that having code 19 backing me up on the day of judgment or not is not necessary. It is there to be understood by those who do. I don't personally understand it as only some of it makes sense to me, and at other times the counts etc are at odds with a systematic simple approach. It is no for me and not something I wish to spend time debating.
I think we need to stop this as it will continue for a very long time. An issue has been bothering me for some time yet people (try to) deal with this one...
Come on guys, lets move on.
Peace to all
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Peace Mazhar,
The wholde debate is mockery regarding failed attempts or trials.
I don't get what you are trying to say. Every educated person knows that it is important to know the whole truth and not just the successful attempts or trials. Would you give your children a flu medicine where the pharmaceutical company only shared the successful trials? For example, the pharmaceutical company said that its medicine cured 10,000 flu patients. So you go and buy the flu medicine and give it to your child then you find out that the pharmaceutical company actually tried the medicine on 20,000 flu patients, out of which 10,000 trials failed and the patients died. So the mortality rate of the medicine is 1 in 2 while we know that the mortality rate of the flu is about 1 in 10,000. How worried would you be about your child? It would have been better if you gave him or her nothing or a placebo.
In the case of Code 19, the placebo or the natural frequency of 19 divisibles is 1 in 19. If Code 19 hunters shared their failed trials then everyone would be able to easily tell if the success rate of Code 19 is better than a placebo or not. THIS IS WHY CODE 19 HUNTERS (OR BIBLE CODE OR WHATEVER CODE) NEVER SHARE THEIR FAILED TRIALS, plain and simple.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Edip,
Where did you hear a LETTER named SHADDA in Arabic Alphabet. I know that humans do give birth, but rarely alphabets give birth to new letters.
You should have told this to Dr. Khalifa. It is ironic that you insist on using only the consonontal text of the great reading and then turn around and hypocritically "give birth" to letters when you want to change a count to add up to 19.
For example, you don't count the little vocalization Alif in "rahman" that you see here when you count the letters of the Bismallah
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/002.0138.gif
But then you turn around and count the same exact little vocalization Alif in "wahed"
http//haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/temp%2002%20%202.163%20.gif
You are forced to hypocritically violate your own rule to cook up a Gematrical Value of 19 for "wahed" despite that like "rahman" this is not how it is written in the consonontal text of the great reading. Khalifa and you knew this fully but then you had the nerve to say the following blatant lie with a straight face
"The crucial importance of the word "ONE"
as the Quran's basic message is manifested
in the fact that the Quran's common denominator, 19,
happens to be the gematrical value of the word "ONE.""
(Source Appendix 1 of the Authorized English translation of the Quran by Dr. Rashad Khalifa)So Edip, you should be the last person to talk about "giving birth" to letters. However, as I said, it is not too late to take a deep breath, gather your courage, and do the right thing and shock everyone (including me) by sharing the WHOLE TRUTH. It is your choice.
PS Thanks to Mazhar for the scanned images from his website.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace RA786,
What I dont understand here is the big problem.
How would believing in the Code 19 theory change or create a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
How also would believing in Rashad Khalifa as a Messenger also be of a disadvantage in the Progression of Islamic Quranic based Monotheism?
If anything, I would think there it to be beneficial to the cause.
Is this really such a Crucial and Cyclic Debate that needs to continue?
There is no Number 19 nor a rashad Khalifa nor edip nor added to the Shahada after Allah (swt).
Rashad's Messengership does not directly invalidate any monotheistic view or goal does it?
Can or is there any befit that can be gained?
What draw back does supporting/believing in this(19/rashad) cause to the Current Quranic movement?
(just curious)Code 19 is a "fitnah".
Do you know what the Arabic word "fitnah" means? Let me make it easier. When someone says in Arabic that a woman is "fatinah" (doer of "fitnah", what does this mean?
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace RA786,
Code 19 is a "fitnah".
Do you know what the Arabic word "fitnah" means? Let me make it easier. When someone says in Arabic that a woman is "fatinah" (doer of "fitnah", what does this mean?
Peace,
AymanAyman, it is incredible that you repeat your deception and distortion even though I had exposed and refuted them in the past. Again, you highlight the part of the verse, which lists one the functions of the 19 and ignore the rest. Ironically, the part you highlight is exactly about those who do not acknowledge the number 19, those are who are ingrates (KaFeR).
The rest of the verse exposes your deception.
Peace,
Edip -
Peace Edip,
All messengers and prophets were similarly judged and condemned and were even killed. If they followed your advice and hide the truth in order not to be the target of ignorant and arrogant people, then they would be losers with those who compromised their responsibilities to please people.
I am not in the business of pleasing people and receiving praises. I am in the business of telling the truth and calling a spade when I see one.So tell the whole truth and don't hide the parts of the truth that you don't like. It has been three days since I appealed to your sense of decency to tell the whole truth
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597165.msg239877#msg239877
Only you and the five other individuals who helped Khalifa with the numerology of Appendix 24 know this truth. So be fair and rise up to the occasion and share the whole truth. Also, respect the intelligence of your own followers and have confidence in them and let them decide based on the whole truth, both successful and failed trials.
Peace,
Ayman