Oral Debate between Ayman and Edip...

afridi220

Salam Anna,,

When you first came to Free-minds.org, we, or maybe just me, had no idea, and you certainly gave no clue, that you were a hard core 19er!

Peace!

http//www.nmsr.org/code19.htm !

TAJ

Salam Afridi,

http//www.nmsr.org/code19.htm !

And your point is...!?

anna

Salam Anna,,

When you first came to Free-minds.org, we, or maybe just me, had no idea, and you certainly gave no clue, that you were a hard core 19er!

Peace!

salam,
i am what i say i am. I AM A TRUE QURAN ALONE in the whole sense of the meaning, yes i did come to the messege through submission and yes i beleive in the 19, i have always been a muslima sunna and the quran has always been there but why did i never understand it, becuase i never had the tools to understand it, my intentions were good but never the less i had the wrong tools, after reading into the site of submission. i understood what the tool is and i applied i, sure enough with time it worked i started understanding quran.as for # 19 its merely a tool for those of today who are living in the technological world who may need proof to beleive in the quran as gods word. now it might not apply to everyone god gives the gift of faith and knowledge to who ever he wishes, and in many ways but we cant deny that what rashad khalifa discovered was of signifance otherwise he would not have been the talk of the town or had ppl writing about his discovery.and i through my learning of the quran depending on god alone to teach me i have found with time that yes #19 is a miracle and yes the verses are not quran material. even if #19 did not show that these are not part of the quran with the understanding of the quran and how it works, with time one will know, hte #19 just brought it to our attention faster.
i am not better then anyone here, i am merely a human being a nothing in this world and i like many here did not know arabic, yes i came from an arabic background but i taught myself beginning with the alphabet. so if i can do it anyone can

belH

Peace all,

and most likely you probably understood nothing from what i have just said, you will reply very quickly not thinking for a moment of the meaning ...........................point made

I hope that is not your way in dealing with people in General; otherwise, you will not have to many friends. People do not like to be accused based on probability (guessing)

as for 9129 lets finish up with 128 first then we will get to this, but i will say that its not confirmed and repeated in many verses as a matter a fact i beleive, if my memory services me right, there is only one verse in the quran that has 7asbiyallah wna3ima lwakil. but we will get to that later.

anna, I think we done with 9-128; now, can you tell me what is wrong with

(&#65279

But if they turn away, Say "Allah sufficeth me There is not god but He On Him is my trust - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme! (129)

Salam

anna

Peace all,

I hope that is not your way in dealing with people in General; otherwise, you will not have to many friends. People do not like to be accused based on probability (guessing)

anna, I think we done with 9-128; now, can you tell me what is wrong with

(&#65279

But if they turn away, Say "Allah sufficeth me There is not god but He On Him is my trust - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme! (129)

Salam

im not guessing, quran teachs the attitudes of people yours included, i knew this is the way you will react because god teachs us everything in the quran, the quran is rules and regulations ,its the past present and future, it teachs us manners and attitudes, warns us of others and teachs us how to deal with it., and wallahi im not trying to put anyone down or hurt anyone, thats against my thought because god does not accept it.all im trying to say that quran is not all technical, it is more spiritual then anything else.no matter what topic one talks about when we talk about quran one must go back to spirtuallity. the quran is easily understood and if you understand the spirtual part of the quran , you would understand the meaning of 9128. i really dont know how else to say it. but we live in a spirtual world those who beleive, everyone else lives in a materialist and technical world.
as for friends..........well lets just say im very highly respected and ppl come to me with there problems and i have ppl online who talk to me just for help, and they respect me a great deal............ when it comes to religion if the whole world hates me thats ok i wont be upset because i know god is with me. but i personnally will never hate anyone.... hate is for the devil......... im sorry but i tend to think with my heart alot,someone told me i can never win a debate by thinking with my heart. well then im happy to lose, but in gods eye im always a winner wil7amdillah

anna

http//www.nmsr.org/code19.htm !

salam,
you know one thing i have noticed wether one believes in 19 or not, it sure has people curious to know more about the quran itself............... is that not a good thing. if they beleive in it thats great if not then they have come across the quran and who knows maybe thats the way god will guide them...... in either case something positive will come out of it.

siki

anna

Refreshing, sun very refreshing, to be introduced to an all new dimension, after all that nitty gritty calculated talk, thanks.

siki

ayman

Peace Anna,

you know one thing i have noticed wether one believes in 19 or not, it sure has people curious to know more about the quran itself............... is that not a good thing. if they beleive in it thats great if not then they have come across the quran and who knows maybe thats the way god will guide them...... in either case something positive will come out of it.

I am sure that many people were also attracted to the great reading by Hadiths and Sira that tell about the miracles supposedly performed by the prophet and some are even filled with some heart warming stories, like the one about the cat from which Abu Hurayra got his nick name. This doesn't make Hadiths true nor does it make those who believe in such things believers in the message of the great reading. Many Hadith collectors, Sunni scholars, 19ers and other such propagators of falsehood have good intentions. But even the best intentions are not substitutes for the truth.

Peace,

Ayman

anna

Peace Anna,

I am sure that many people were also attracted to the great reading by Hadiths and Sira that tell about the miracles supposedly performed by the prophet and some are even filled with some heart warming stories, like the one about the cat from which Abu Hurayra got his nick name. This doesn't make Hadiths true nor does it make those who believe in such things believers in the message of the great reading. Many Hadith collectors, Sunni scholars, 19ers and other such propagators of falsehood have good intentions. But even the best intentions are not substitutes for the truth.

Peace,

Ayman

what is your point, you might consider yourself a god and make up those silly verses, but now you can judge people on how they are guided too.i feel yo u have hatered inside of you, and someone who supposdely reads the GREAT reading as you call. i dont know why, doesnt seem to apply that attitude of a good.......whatever it is you call yourself, what is your sect name again????????

belH

im not guessing, quran teachs the attitudes of people yours included, i knew this is the way you will react because god teachs us everything in the quran, the quran is rules and regulations ,its the past present and future, it teachs us manners and attitudes, warns us of others and teachs us how to deal with it., and wallahi im not trying to put anyone down or hurt anyone, thats against my thought because god does not accept it.all im trying to say that quran is not all technical, it is more spiritual then anything else.no matter what topic one talks about when we talk about quran one must go back to spirtuallity. the quran is easily understood and if you understand the spirtual part of the quran , you would understand the meaning of 9128. i really dont know how else to say it. but we live in a spirtual world those who beleive, everyone else lives in a materialist and technical world.
as for friends..........well lets just say im very highly respected and ppl come to me with there problems and i have ppl online who talk to me just for help, and they respect me a great deal............ when it comes to religion if the whole world hates me thats ok i wont be upset because i know god is with me. but i personnally will never hate anyone.... hate is for the devil......... im sorry but i tend to think with my heart alot,someone told me i can never win a debate by thinking with my heart. well then im happy to lose, but in gods eye im always a winner wil7amdillah

Anna, you did not answer my question; let me post again

anna, I think we done with 9-128; now, can you tell me what is wrong with

(&#65279

But if they turn away, Say "Allah sufficeth me There is not god but He On Him is my trust - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme! (129)

anna

Anna, you did not answer my question; let me post again

anna, I think we done with 9-128; now, can you tell me what is wrong with

(&#65279

But if they turn away, Say "Allah sufficeth me There is not god but He On Him is my trust - He the Lord of the Throne (of Glory) Supreme! (129)

thats makes the 2 of us, as you never answered mine.........

belH

thats makes the 2 of us, as you never answered mine.........

nope
yes
-\

Okay; but do not ignore the Fact that God used the word 7aleem, which is one of his names, to discribe Abrahem.

Now, I will give you some more examples

Example one shows how people use one of God's name (God's Title) to discribe Human

(&#1641

Said the Chiefs of the people of Pharaoh "This is indeed a sorcerer well-versed. (7-109)

(&#1634
And bring up to thee all (our) sorcerers well-versed." (7-112)

Example two shows how God used his name (God's Title) to discribe people

(&#1638

So he began (the search) with their baggage, before (he came to) the baggage of his brother at length He brought it out of his brother's baggage. Thus did We plan for Joseph. He could not take his brother by the law of the king except that Allah willed it (so). We raise to degrees (of wisdom) whom We please but over all endued with knowledge is One more knowledgable. (12-76)

Example Three shows Angels useing God's Name (God's Title) to discribe a Human (Issac)

(&#1635

They said "Fear not! We give thee glad tidings of a son endowed with wisdom." (15-53)

(&#1640

(When they did not eat), He conceived a fear of them. They said "Fear not" and they gave him glad tidings of a son endowed with knowledge. (51-2

Example four shows a Messanger of God using two names of God (God's Titles) to discribe himself

(&#1637

(Joseph) said "Set me over the storehouses of the land I ?m a keeper and Knowledgeable" (12-55)

Thus, 9-128 is not different than any of the above example.

Peace

nimnimak_11

Peace Anna,

I am sure that many people were also attracted to the great reading by Hadiths and Sira that tell about the miracles supposedly performed by the prophet and some are even filled with some heart warming stories, like the one about the cat from which Abu Hurayra got his nick name. This doesn't make Hadiths true nor does it make those who believe in such things believers in the message of the great reading. Many Hadith collectors, Sunni scholars, 19ers and other such propagators of falsehood have good intentions. But even the best intentions are not substitutes for the truth.

Peace,

Ayman

Peace

Indeed the truth is the best. But what is the truth? Even those who reject the 19 pattern as a Divine act of God may have good intentions but may be equally wrong.

I cannot understand the pattern to be a coincidence. I see stronger evidence towards the pattern. Thus i accept it as an act of God. What other options do you suggest??

Edip_Yuksel

Dear Anna

Those people who are described by 7146 are fighting against "one of the greatest signs" just to justify the flame and smoke of hell in their imagination. If you wish to educate yourself about the real problem of these ingrates and the incredible divine prophecy, please read the following arguments. Here is a list

Which One Do You See Hell or Miracle?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0

Running Like Zebra
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/zebras.htm

Another Running Like Zebras
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,186,0,0,1,0

Intelligent People's Guide to Code 19
http//19.org/?books

And regarding 9128-129, see the second half of the following letter

". . . Indeed, we believe in the message he brought" (7.75)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm

unknownuser

Dear Anna

Those people who are described by 7146 are fighting against "one of the greatest signs" just to justify the flame and smoke of hell in their imagination. If you wish to educate yourself about the real problem of these ingrates and the incredible divine prophecy, please read the following arguments. Here is a list

Which One Do You See Hell or Miracle?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,175,0,0,1,0

Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0

Running Like Zebra
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/zebras.htm

Another Running Like Zebras
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,186,0,0,1,0

Intelligent People's Guide to Code 19
http//19.org/?books

And regarding 9128-129, see the second half of the following letter

". . . Indeed, we believe in the message he brought" (7.75)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm

Peace Edip

I think you are a great scholar and that you have contributed much for Islam based on Quran alone. However, i liked the old edip more, the one that focused on the great reading, not on code 19. I can see that you have not changed your article even dough i showed you solid arguments and proofs that 1974 has nothing to do with code 19. To link 1974 (age of discovery) with Quran would be false since 1974 is the year of the christian calendar and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran. But still you are promoting this Christian year (1974) in your article as shown below

The year of the discovery of the code (1974).
The number of lunar years between the revelation of the Quran and the year of the discovery (19x74).

Was the Discovery of the Code 19 a Coincidence?
http//www.19.org/index.php?id=14,47,0,0,1,0

If you are a true reformist, which i don't doubt by the way, then please adapt to changes and arguments that show you that 1974 has nothing to do with islam, and please change/erase the year 1974 from your article, because it has nothing to do with islam or the quran and can't be used as an argument in my opinion.

Here is my arguments against the year 1974 and its connection with Islam
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16379.0

By the way I think its wrong to call other people ingrates, because it is not up to us to judge if other believers are ingrates or believer. Only god can judge people. I even think that one verse in the quran tells us to not call people ingrates/kafirs.

And yes, i believe the Quran has mathematical miracles, like for ecample the repetion of the word day 365 times in the Quran. But code 19 has nothing to with the Quran and is completely man made.

ayman

Peace Nimnimak,

Indeed the truth is the best. But what is the truth? Even those who reject the 19 pattern as a Divine act of God may have good intentions but may be equally wrong.

What you are saying is like saying "Even those who reject that there are little green men living in Mars may have good intentions but may be equally wrong". You first have to prove that there are little green men in Mars.

The truth is independent of humans. The illusion of a pattern is the result of human intervention as follows

Start with a preconception or an obsession about a certain number such as 19.
Pick any text, preferably one that has some spiritual significance.
Use trial and error of THOUSANDS methods and data sets to get the preconceived result.
Ignore the THOUSANDS of negative results.
Present the 1 out of 19 positive results that would naturally occur in any random sample.
Sprinkle the positive results with expressions like "remarkable phenomenon" and "the alteration of one of these letters destroys this phenomenon".
Present to an audience who desperately needs to strengthen their faith in the text.
Voila, now you have a miraculous code.

I cannot understand the pattern to be a coincidence. I see stronger evidence towards the pattern. Thus i accept it as an act of God. What other options do you suggest??

Again, what you are saying is like saying "I cannot understand that little green men from Mars are a coincidence". You have to prove that little green men from Mars exist first.

The only "act of god" that we know if you believe in 7431 is that he made the count of 19 ONLY a temptation for the disbelievers. You have presented ZERO evidence, let alone any strong evidence. There is ZERO evidence that the occurrence of 19 divisibles in the great reading is more than 1 in 19. The only way to determine if there is a pattern or not is to look at all the trials and examine the ratio of successful to failed trials. It is very simple. Unfortunately, those who idolize 19 don't want to do that.

Even Edip himself during our debate criticized those code hunters who constantly change methods. Please go check Khalifa's work and see for yourself that he NEVER used the same method twice. Also, Edip never once contested that Khalifa hid thousands of failed trials where he didn't get a 19 divisible. Instead, he contested my request to honestly share those failed trials. I think that the truth is clear even to those who are attracted to the count of 19.

Peace,

Ayman

unknownuser

And regarding 9128-129, see the second half of the following letter

". . . Indeed, we believe in the message he brought" (7.75)
http//www.yuksel.org/e/religion/signs.htm

Peace,

Removing verses by obvious manipulation is saying God deceived people 1400 years.

The fre-quency of the word God (Allah) is 2698 (19x142), without those two.
The sum of the num-bers of all verses con-taining the word God is 118123 (19x6217), without those two.
The fre-quency of the word God, from the begin-ning of the Quran until the end of Chapter 9 is 1273 (19x67), without those two.
The fre-quency of the word God, from the first initialed chapter un-til the last initialed chapter is 2641 (19x139), without those two.
From the missing Basmalah of Chapter 9 until the extra Basmalah of Chapter 27, the word God is men-tioned in 513 (19x27) verses, without those two.

The same counts using same method would be achieved by removing any Allah verse.

As bukuri did with hadith ? you choose 9129 as not being salih based on bukuri et al.

The fre-quency of the word "Elah (god)" is 95 (19x5), without those two.

The same count using same method is achieved by removing any "Elah (god)" verse.

The fre-quency of the word "Arsh" re-ferring to God?s do-main is 19, without those two.

The same count using same method is achieved removing...

2726 Allahu la ilaha illa huwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi

Why remove...?

9129 Fain tawallaw faqul hasbiya Allahu la ilaha illa huwa AAalayhi tawakkaltu wahuwa rabbu alAAarshi alAAatheemi

The number of all verses, including 112 un-numbered Basmalahs is 6346 (19x334), without those two. The abso-lute value of this number is 19, without those two.

Again, how many other combinations will yield same result by removing other verses?

The fre-quency of Rahim (Merciful) is 114 (19x6). Verse 9.129 cre-ate a curious single ex-ception by using it for prophet Muhammad. The other names men-tioned in Basmalah, that is, Allah and Rahman are never at-tributed to others than God.

The count would be same if ANY Ram verse is removed.

9128 in context is not about forgiving sins; compassionate, humane, kind are all human traits...

3021 ...and He made between you love warahmatan...
5727 ...and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness warahmatan...
1724 And be comforting to them the humbleness's wing from alrrahmati...

Bahman

i showed you solid arguments and proofs that 1974 has nothing to do with code 19. To link 1974 (age of discovery) with Quran would be false since 1974 is the year of the christian calendar and has nothing to do with Islam or the Quran. But still you are promoting this Christian year (1974) in your article as shown below

Peace David
You know that I believe in code 19 and promote it is solid proof for exitence of super human Creator, Allah, God, Lord, .................. different name in different languages

Rashad was like other previous messenger and human and fallible. I am not in position to judge his translation but after 10 years study and promoting code 19 in the path of God Alone Quran Alone I do not accept anything from outside of Quran which are fallible to be mixed with Quran properties which are word of God and infallible.
So such idea rejects

17 times TRADITIONAL contact prayer
End of world
And 1974 too.
Any new name to be used for claiming messenger ship.
Secret was inspired to Rashad and his name is authored 19 times in that book.
There are many names in the book that later was used as name like ABadolRahim , Ahmed and ?????????.
Proof belongs to Rashad and no other one can claim for his name in Quran other way will have millions messenger

It was last week when I was studying timing which is its base is wrong. Like all other measuring units.
Our ancestors concluded to divide each rotation of earth into 24 hour and later we made it into 60 minutes each hour 60 seconds milli, micro and so on.
Now we know that our leap year is due 3 minutes difference in real time and out 24 hrs time
And then Christian astronomer claim that Christian colander is not right. So I was rejecting any colander property to mixed with Quran?s property including 1974.
And only that but people like Ayman calling code as numerology hence there is no date in patterns and mixing colander with patterns then is numerology.
I am not sure for what reason I downloaded a colander calculator and it was interesting to see that you can find how many day you have lived in this illusion.
Then suddenly came to my mind find how many days Rashad lived and in a second I see 19 798 which I had worked for it a clip and without calculator I could see its disability by 19 and the all those symmetrical linkages and connections.
I am not going to rewrite it . Please visit here
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596880.msg182544#msg182544
But to answer your question after you read in above post is that 1974 is refrence number as is beyond 19798 rotations of earth.
God knows all our faulty measuring units and GW if send an astronomer messenger to develop timing on the moon as calculating no matter how accurate be it will be rejected by all corrupted religions specially if that messenger to work with 19 nanos.
How ever the following slide another related one is not creating any security for text but are supported by all data from book plus 19798 times of sunrise when the bird do their prayers.
http//y19.net/Slide3.JPG
Peace

.

Bahman

The truth is independent of humans. The illusion of a pattern is the result of human intervention as follows
Ayman

Peace

Peace Bahman,

From a Code 19 point of view, what I produced is far better than Chapter 57. In fact it is far better than any chapter in the great reading. Even the simplest facts that I produced, for example 19 verses with 19 letters each are unmatched by any chapter in the great reading.
I actually confess and I completely agree with you that my response is cheap, nonsense and ridiculous. Yet from a Code 19 point of view it is superior to any chapter in the great reading. This should tell you that Code 19 is even more cheap, nonsense and ridiculous.I
Ayman

Peace
Ayaman show your abilty and just produce like 57Q. Yours is designed and is that coincidence or man made. ?
Where is the truth? What takes you to such nonesense ? Get out from that lock, remove dust from your eyes, see the truth
Peace

PS PLEASE SHOW HOW MANY TRAILS NEED TO COUNT 57Q

muawiya

Kagem tiang-tiang saking manca negara ingkang kulo hormati ...

The truth is independent of humans. The illusion of a pattern is the result of human intervention as follows

Start with a preconception or an obsession about a certain number such as 19.
Pick any text, preferably one that has some spiritual significance.
Use trial and error of THOUSANDS methods and data sets to get the preconceived result.
Ignore the THOUSANDS of negative results.
Present the 1 out of 19 positive results that would naturally occur in any random sample.
Sprinkle the positive results with expressions like "remarkable phenomenon" and "the alteration of one of these letters destroys this phenomenon".
Present to an audience who desperately needs to strengthen their faith in the text.
Voila, now you have a miraculous code.

Dear Sirs,

Why we do not think that 19 is only hint gived from God to seek miracle(s) in Koran
And we MUST do 'trial and error' to find out the micracle(s) using that hint (19).
It is because we believe that Koran has miracle(s).

Let we say " There is a miracle within an rectangle". Hint "verify the side(s)"
And then we MUST verify all possibilties using that hint ( side ) until we find c^2=a^2+b^2
Because it is exact formula, so it is easy for us to see/judge that c^2=a^2+b^2 is a miracle

Peace
muawiya