why do we have to believe?
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May peace be to you too, let us share our thoughts together... handshake
Umm i think you thought i am saying the heart is the God right? .... I apologize if i'm mistaken....You are mistaken. I was trying to imply that since God is unfathomable as you have put it, the best way to determine his attributes is for him to tell us himself through revelation. Everyone guessing on his attributes does not make it truth (hence my example of the apple tree).
The heart is pure... but the mind, (i think it's maybe the left brain)... has somehow took over the heart (probably due to how we are raised nowadays) where we can only listen to the heart only when we are desperate or the mind has no other way to find a solution or when we completely empty our mind or change our focus thought to God when we meditate, pray or thinking deeply.... i'm sorry if i don't define it earlier but i think it's easier us to think God is in our heart... The physical heart is kinda like our bio generator... never ceased pumping with the rythm that had been dictated by the Creator.... fascinating isn't it? from where do it gets it's energy i wonder... do you know?... I don't know whether the physical heart and the heart that i said earlier is the same... but does it matter? Maybe the heart is the soul? maybe we'll know sooner or later.... i think Quran did show it somewhere.. but it's ok for me...
Proof of anything you have just said.
it's my experience which in turn... i don't conjecture my experience... i "share"... by sharing i mean you can read it or you can ignore it or you can discuss with it...
Well since you are telling me how the world and God operates with no proof it is the worst kind of conjecture.
Definition of Conjecture 2 a inference from defective or presumptive evidence b a conclusion deduced by surmise or guesswork c a proposition (as in mathematics) before it has been proved or disproved
3120 Did you not see that God has committed in your service everything in the heavens and the Earth, and He has showered you with His blessings, both apparent and hidden? Yet from the people are some who argue about God without knowledge, without guidance, and without an enlightening Scripture.
i don't have any proof other than what it had made me now... group
Well you will need more proof than that otherwise your belief will just perish in time. As all falsehood/guessing does.
Is it directly from God or is it from the mouth of Muhammad who is trying desperately to convince the Arabs who only God knows what he was thinking? or is it from the mouth of those who memorized it who we have not seen them face to face or hear them recite to us directly? or is it from the leaves or animal skin which we already "told" have been burned? There's a mixed level of subtlety and the unknown there.... why not ask them first to give the evidence if they're truthful?... or yeah they're not in this time anymore... we have to trust the oral story of the Arabs on how it came about.... may peace be upon them... handshake
Again.. not to disbelief Quran... just a critical thought.... group
Thanks for the "critical thought" as though its something I needed to think about ;D
Once again you failed to read my last post. And you just keep repeating yourself as though that somehow makes your argument stronger ???
i came to know that all the material in this world is just a tool/catalyst/guide/helper for us to learn and go higher... take the wisdom of it as much as we can...Quran is a book of wisdom anyway.... try not to rely on it too much literally.... don't expect the best suraverse number from literal translation or the or the arabic version which is from golden Quran proven with complex 19 code without sura 9128-129 will go with us when we're not living here anymore.... i apologize if anybody felt insulted.... remember the idolatry test....
4140 And it has been sent down to you in the Scripture, that if you hear God?s revelations being rejected and ridiculed in, then do not sit with them until they move on to a different subject; if not, then you are like them. God will gather the hypocrites and the disbelievers in Hell all together.
If you want me to participate in this discussion I suggest you stop calling the Quran a book of wisdom that I should not rely on too literally. And stop trying to say it is the words of a human. I already quoted the relevant verses in my last post.
Please don't take this seriously... i'm just entertaining my thought .... thank you for the comments.... jedi
I think this means you are not here to learn or contribute anything substantial. I advise you go entertain yourself on another forum because its sound as though your conjecture is more important to you than truth.
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I see you advising aalmakto as if he needs your advice laugh
Thanks sis no need to worry about me P
bravo you have no issue with God only with Mohammad who, according to you, was desperately trying to reach the Arabs and ended up reaching the whole world including "the Modern ones" in the west. Now it seems you are desperately trying to undo that feat; keep trying. I don?t see you have much else to do. brickwallWrong!!we know nothing it?s you who seemed to come to know more than you can swallow, so that is why you are desperate to advice someone like me who thinks of you as just another lost kid seeking attention, ) pr
Very true. I was brought up in the West, and all my life never read or knew anything about the Quran... other than it was a book that some people believed in. Muhammad, must have "written" quite a book to have such far reach and inspire so many people yeah. Fadhli, I am sure has not written anything that can even come close.
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We created man from an extract of clay. Then We made him as a drop in a place of settlement, firmly fixed. Then We made the drop into an Alaqah* (leech, suspended thing, blood clot), then We made the Alaqah into a Mudghah** (chewed, lump)? The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 23,Verse 12-14
Let him beware! If he does not stop, We will drag him by the Forelock * , a lying, sinful forelock? The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 96,Verse 15-16 police
Do not the unbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were joined together, then We clove them asunder, and made from water every living thing? Will they not then believe?" - The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 21,Verse 30
Or (the unbelievers? state) is like the darkness in a deep sea. It is covered by waves, above which are waves, above which are clouds. Darknesses, one above another. If a man stretches out his hand, he cannot see it
sun
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Farida and aalmakto if you like to see it that way.. i understand your thoughts now... you guys are well aware of it... i think i didn't label any of you as "misguided".... if i did please accept my apology.... for proofs i don't need to prove anything... it's just good as it is... you guys don't need my advice... i'm just sharing what i know... it's not my great mission or anything related.... and my arguments are becoming repetitive already because for me it's simple... God is somehow closer within and the hearts connects it... before my ego tainted my thoughts i better stop.. eat..... if it's already known to you it's ok by me.. no hard feelings ya? ;D ;D group group
*p/s i may i gave in the temptation again to reply your posts if it's interesting.... lol... sorry i'm just human....
Peace
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Farida and aalmakto if you like to see it that way.. i understand your thoughts now... you guys are well aware of it... i think i didn't label any of you as "misguided".... if i did please accept my apology.... for proofs i don't need to prove anything... it's just good as it is... you guys don't need my advice... i'm just sharing what i know... it's not my great mission or anything related.... and my arguments are becoming repetitive already because for me it's simple... God is somehow closer within and the hearts connects it... before my ego tainted my thoughts i better stop.. eat..... if it's already known to you it's ok by me.. no hard feelings ya? ;D ;D group group
*p/s i may i gave in the temptation again to reply your posts if it's interesting.... lol... sorry i'm just human....
Peace
No hard feelings Fadhli. group
4514 Say to those who believed to forgive those who do not look forward to the days of God. He will fully recompense people for whatever they have earned.
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this is sort of linked to my what does God get out of it question...
Why is "shirk" the unforgiveable sin while anything else can be forgiven? It is not harming anyone else?
And why do we have to believe? God always talks about almumineen/muslimeen/ahl alkitab as those who will know no fear while the mushrikeen/kuffar are the ones who will be hell-bound - if you are an atheist but a good person where does that leave you?thanks all!
salam , i have not read all the posts, so i will try to answer best i can ,
everyone keeps talking about repenting, when does repenting begin at birth at childhood or as an adult.the answer is from the moment we are born because the fact that we are in this world proves in itself that we have sinned. but what was the sin, when adam and eve ate from the apple was that the sin.....some ppl might say yes. no it was not, they sinned when they allowed themselves to listen to other then god,in other words they put satins word obove god himself, that in itself is shirk,that is the sin. if people can understand the concept of that very sin, then life would be very simple, you look at the quran, what is the quran, it is a book, a history book, its talks of future, the past, it teachs discepline and manners, it teaches personalities and mentalities, its science it math, it is everything you can possibly need to live a perfect life becuase the quran is perfection.and with all that knowledge in that book, the main idea, to beleive in god alone, with everything that we learn from it, from all the stories to all the messengers to prophets and in the end the whole idea behind the book, is not to do what adam and eve did in the beginning. to put someone or even something above god.
if you do shirk you are right you are not harming anyone accept one and that would be yourself. i will not stand with you when we stand infront of god you will be alone and so will each and everyone of us ,but this time there is no repentance you had that chance, this time there is no choices, and when you stand infront of him who will help you. he is our creator he is our love he is th heartbeat and he is the breath he is in every cell that moves in your body. and he will love you like no other he has given us riches beyond what we deserve we walk and we can speak and most important we can think. so use the mind he gave you to find your way to him. i do not care from what sect or religion people come from in the end whatever truth we think we know. if it includes anyone other then god. then he knows not what truth is.
god bless us all -
God created us in His image so we can come into a relationship with Him. Yes if an athiest dies without asking forgivness in Jesus and having rejected Jesus and the Father they will die in their sins, and will be going to hell. Forgivness comes form God through His Son. People who know about God but choice to live a life seperate from Him God will honour that request and send you to hell where there is seperation from God. If you did not want to live your life with Him on earth you will not live with Him in Heaven. simple.
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Surely not, if Hell is separate from God, that would mean that God was not all-powerful and all-embracing. God must be everywhere, nowhere is separate from God.
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you sound deceived. Hell is very real. I will not add anymore then that.
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I didn't say hell isn't real. I said hell is not separation from God's power, because God's power permeates everything.
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hell is not a place God resides. common sence
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Why, do you think God's afraid of hell? Nothing can exist without God. If God ceased to reside in a place, that place would cease to exist. And God is not afraid of anything, he created everything.
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demons are in hell and satan and God cannot live together. Light cannot live in darkness. and God is light. God created hell for satan and his angels but anyone who dies without Jesus will go there. It is not God's disire for anyone to perish bt come to repentance through His Son Jesus and hell is not a party place. God's Home is Heaven not hell. God is on His Throne in Heaven. what don't you understand about that? God created hell for satan and his angels but so many souls die and go there everyday for rejecting or turning away from Jesus. but I am not responsible for your salvation, if you end up in hell that is not my fault but rememeber you have been told. and you will remember this conversation in hell. I do not want you to go there but you have a choice and I am not going to make if for you.
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But the Gospel of John says "The light shines upon the darkness but the darkness does not recognise it". Surely this means that darkness and light do coexist. Otherwise the light would not be shining on it.
I don't think you have any biblical basis at all for your claim that hell is the absence of God. You're taking the ideas of various philosophers and theologians and mixing them up with Gospel.
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demons are in hell and satan and God cannot live together. Light cannot live in darkness. and God is light. God created hell for satan and his angels but anyone who dies without Jesus will go there. It is not God's disire for anyone to perish bt come to repentance through His Son Jesus and hell is not a party place. God's Home is Heaven not hell. God is on His Throne in Heaven. what don't you understand about that? God created hell for satan and his angels but so many souls die and go there everyday for rejecting or turning away from Jesus. but I am not responsible for your salvation, if you end up in hell that is not my fault but rememeber you have been told. and you will remember this conversation in hell. I do not want you to go there but you have a choice and I am not going to make if for you.
so you're saying that Moses and Abraham are in hell?! (God forbid)
peace
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Um... I know quite a few moral/charitable/Godly atheists.
the old belief that atheists are all deviant and evil is just plain wrong. in this age of reason and science, some just do not see the proof there for God.
this is something I hated too, when I was a young boy. "If God is all loving and I can find no adequate proof for his existence, yet I am a exemplary person of honor and morality par excellence... I am still going to hell.. may as well believe in him..better than the fire."
this is the old mentality too which involves punitive justice as opposed to restorative. My celtic ancestors believed instead of forcing a physical discipline or injury on someone for say stealing.. they would put them to work as a bondservant to the one stolen from until the value of the item stolen was earned back. I see islam saying the same thing.
yet.. think about it for a second.. An all loving and knowing God would toss into hell a mother theresa (who happened to just be atheist) and yet some repeatedly stumbling and mean person to others but believed in God would get paradise. Things like this wreak of human morality and not what I would more think with an omnipotent deity.
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^^
Exactly.
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Um... I know quite a few moral/charitable/Godly atheists.
the old belief that atheists are all deviant and evil is just plain wrong. in this age of reason and science, some just do not see the proof there for God.
this is something I hated too, when I was a young boy. "If God is all loving and I can find no adequate proof for his existence, yet I am a exemplary person of honor and morality par excellence... I am still going to hell.. may as well believe in him..better than the fire."
this is the old mentality too which involves punitive justice as opposed to restorative. My celtic ancestors believed instead of forcing a physical discipline or injury on someone for say stealing.. they would put them to work as a bondservant to the one stolen from until the value of the item stolen was earned back. I see islam saying the same thing.
yet.. think about it for a second.. An all loving and knowing God would toss into hell a mother theresa (who happened to just be atheist) and yet some repeatedly stumbling and mean person to others but believed in God would get paradise. Things like this wreak of human morality and not what I would more think with an omnipotent deity.
I totally agree with you. If you believe God is our Father (and mother) and creator, then you have to believe that God is all knowing and all seeing. If that is the case, God will judge people on what they do, not what they believe. If you are Baptist, then you believe only Baptists go to heaven, if you are JW then you believe only JWs go to heaven, etc, etc. This is just their way of keeping their members loyal to that one religion. God does not have a religion, God does not hate, God loves atheists too.
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The word originally mentioned in the opening post was "kufur" which principally means ungrateful, and concealment, and then the more well known meanings of rejecting and non-believer.
Why is "shirk" the unforgiveable sin while anything else can be forgiven? It is not harming anyone else?
And why do we have to believe? God always talks about almumineen/muslimeen/ahl alkitab as those who will know no fear while the mushrikeen/kuffar are the ones who will be hell-bound - if you are an atheist but a good person where does that leave you?If this question comes up in conversation, I often say "If you were in need and I gave you some food, would you say thanks?" If they say "yes", I then explain this implies they are being grateful and not ungrateful, this means they acknowledge rather than conceal/deny, accept rather than reject. I then say "In my view, that's the key to this life and if you understand that point, then you're half way there".
Of course, people show thanks in many ways, verbal is just one form. My understanding and preference can be found here.
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Salaam,
I read that thread, and in it, I found your concern for what I can only assume to be your patients (since you are a clinician) to be admirable and noteworthy. However, I strongly disagree with your conclusion "...they were a necessary link in the chain leading to Him, by doing good, reducing the injustices/poverty/negativity/etc and trying to better myself through their betterment would allow me to uplift myself at the same time, and maybe that is why God put them there..." As someone who has gone through tough times, and as someone who sympathizes greatly with those who suffer, I find it offensive that you can even consider that God would "put them there" in that condition (which I assume to be quite bad) for the betterment of others, such as yourself.
