The Quran and The Legends of the Jews

Rami

Hello free-minds,

You are well aware that the People of the Book reject the Quran for the alien ideas found in the Quran and not in their Bible. These ideas are found in the jewish oral traditions eg. the midrash, talmud etc. For example;

The concept of seven heavens and seven earth
http//sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj103.htm (ctrl+f and type seven)
The dispute regarding the creation of man between the angels and the fall of satan
http//sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj104.htm
Abraham thrown into the fire
http//sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj107.htm (searh furnace)
Solomon controlling demons by his command.
http//sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj406.htm (search demons)
etc etc

What is the implications of this? Is this the golden argument for the oral jewish tradition? or is this how the jews hid the Torah? or is the Quran simply the work of the Rabbis? brickwall
Pretty scary. &

Salam, Shalom and Peace.

unknownuser

Salam Rami,

Ok, you definitely have me curious now. I will be looking into this insha Allah. This is quite interesting and you are absolutely right, this could mean many things indeed.

Salam,
Arnab

ayman

Peace Rami,

You are well aware that the People of the Book reject the Quran for the alien ideas found in the Quran and not in their Bible.

The view that the ideas found in the great reading are "alien" is a relatively modern viewpoint. The only people who found some ideas in the great reading ("quran&quot a little alien were the Romans and this was specifically in relation to certain aspect of their dogma such as sainthood and so on. Even later when Christians attacked alien ideas, they were not from the great reading but were from pagan corruptions. For example, by the mid 8th century (Abassid era) John of Damascus attacks the alien idea of venerating a black stone. This of course has nothing to do with the great reading and we find no such objections by early Jews and Christians. So those pagan corruptions crept into the newly founded religion later.

Also, when the great reading talks about ?the people of the book?, this doesn?t necessarily mean all Jews and Christians. In fact, the word ?Christian? is never mentioned in the great reading. 572-73 condemns as rejecters/"kuffar" Monophysites (572) and Trinitarians (573). Both are never called Nasara.

The Nasara and Jewish sects who lived in the Lakhmid province where the great reading was revealed were not your average Trinitarian Christian or Jews. The Nasara were probably not even considered ?Christians? by your average Christian. Fourth century CE Roman Christian writings such as those of Epiphanius talk about Nasara as a heretic Jewish sect. The beliefs of the Nasara fit the Nestorians or Ebionites. Although they took Jesus to be the son of god, they emphasized his humanity and rejected the Trinity.

The books that the Nestorians and other marginal Jewish sects that resided in the Lakhmid provinces used were probably very different to the mainstream Jewish and Christian books, which evolved into the Bible that we have today. So when the great reading talks about the Torah and the Injeel, this doesn?t mean the Bible that we have today.

These ideas are found in the jewish oral traditions eg. the midrash, talmud etc. For example;

The concept of seven heavens and seven earth
http//sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj103.htm (ctrl+f and type seven)
The dispute regarding the creation of man between the angels and the fall of satan
http//sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj104.htm
Abraham thrown into the fire
http//sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj107.htm (searh furnace)
Solomon controlling demons by his command.
http//sacred-texts.com/jud/loj/loj406.htm (search demons)
etc etc
What is the implications of this? Is this the golden argument for the oral jewish tradition? or is this how the jews hid the Torah? or is the Quran simply the work of the Rabbis? brickwall
Pretty scary. &

By the time the great reading was revealed the Tamuld?s Mishna and the Midrash were not oral anymore. They had been written down for several centuries.

If you read the Hadiths, you will find the same thing. You will find many ideas that parallel some of those in the great reading but are embellished and remolded to fit a certain agenda. Not much should be read into this. It simply confirms that there is an earlier more authoritative source that the Rabbis borrowed from.

Peace,

Ayman

FAR

The sun and moon were created after the Earth?

That's not what the Quran says.

Rami

Thanks Ayman for the explanation. But what about the dead sea scrolls, none of these legends are found in them. God in the Quran asks people to bring the Torah and recite it. What Torah is this? This means the real Torah was found between the DSS and todays version??

Rami

The sun and moon were created after the Earth?

That's not what the Quran says.

The Quran says that the Earth was created first in four days then the smoky heavens was fashioned and whats in it including the sun and the moon in two days. Hope that helps.
Peace.

Rami

Peace Rami,

The view that the ideas found in the great reading are "alien" is a relatively modern viewpoint. The only people who found some ideas in the great reading ("quran&quot a little alien were the Romans and this was specifically in relation to certain aspect of their dogma such as sainthood and so on. Even later when Christians attacked alien ideas, they were not from the great reading but were from pagan corruptions. For example, by the mid 8th century (Abassid era) John of Damascus attacks the alien idea of venerating a black stone. This of course has nothing to do with the great reading and we find no such objections by early Jews and Christians. So those pagan corruptions crept into the newly founded religion later.

Also, when the great reading talks about the people of the book, this doesnt necessarily mean all Jews and Christians. In fact, the word Christian is never mentioned in the great reading. 572-73 condemns as rejecters/"kuffar" Monophysites (572) and Trinitarians (573). Both are never called Nasara.

The Nasara and Jewish sects who lived in the Lakhmid province where the great reading was revealed were not your average Trinitarian Christian or Jews. The Nasara were probably not even considered Christians by your average Christian. Fourth century CE Roman Christian writings such as those of Epiphanius talk about Nasara as a heretic Jewish sect. The beliefs of the Nasara fit the Nestorians or Ebionites. Although they took Jesus to be the son of god, they emphasized his humanity and rejected the Trinity.

The books that the Nestorians and other marginal Jewish sects that resided in the Lakhmid provinces used were probably very different to the mainstream Jewish and Christian books, which evolved into the Bible that we have today. So when the great reading talks about the Torah and the Injeel, this doesnt mean the Bible that we have today.

By the time the great reading was revealed the Tamulds Mishna and the Midrash were not oral anymore. They had been written down for several centuries.

If you read the Hadiths, you will find the same thing. You will find many ideas that parallel some of those in the great reading but are embellished and remolded to fit a certain agenda. Not much should be read into this. It simply confirms that there is an earlier more authoritative source that the Rabbis borrowed from.

Peace,

Ayman

Thanks Ayman for the explanation. But what about the dead sea scrolls, none of these stories are found in them. God in the Quran asks people to bring the Torah and recite it. What Torah is this? This means the real Torah was found between the DSS and todays version?? I am just quoting what the Judeochristians will say. Then there must be a some kind of 'Master Torah' with the Jewish guys in Medina that was not with DSS sect and not with todays Jews.

Peace.

FAR

The Quran says that the Earth was created first in four days then the smoky heavens was fashioned and whats in it including the sun and the moon in two days. Hope that helps.
Peace.

You're going to have to provide proof on that one.

khurram

Peace

To find God, must we look into Scripture?

Rami

Peace

To find God, must we look into Scripture?

Peace Khurram,

To find God, simply look at the heavens and the earth but to serve God is a different subject. God speaks to man through the prophets otherwise he is just an idol and it is impossible to know what he really wants so on what criteria will He judge us and if there is no judgement and afterlife then why did He create us! You can't serve a King unless you know what he want and you can't serve a King who is mute. Don't worry the King spoke but His servants is still in doubt if He actually exists. Thats my belief ofcourse.

Peace,

Rami

Rami

You're going to have to provide proof on that one.

Peace FAR,

419 Say You are rejecting the One who created the Earth in two days, and you set up equals with Him. This is Lord of the worlds.
4110 And He placed in it stabilizers from above it, and He blessed it and established its provisions in four equal days, to satisfy those who ask.
4111 THEN He settled to the heaven, while it was still smoke, and He said to it, and to the Earth Come willingly or unwillingly. They said We come willingly.
4112 Thus, He then made them into seven universes in two days, and He inspired to every universe its affair. And We adorned the lowest universe with lamps, and for protection. Such is the design of the Noble, the Knowledgeable.

Hope that helps.
Peace,

Rami

Bigmo

Some people have said that the Koran says that the Torah and Gospel are corrupted and its no longer a book of guidance. They say Muslims say so. Some Muslims even have said that anyone who still follows these scriptures is no longer a believer but a disbeliever and will go to hell. However when asked to provide their evidence from the Koran they are mute and confused. This is because what they say and the Koran are complete opposites. Lets look at the Koran and what it say

Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)

But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)

Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. (Surah 2, Baqara, verse 85)

Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 6

If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)

Of the people of Moses there is a section who guide and do justice in the light of truth. (Surah 7, A'raf, verse 159)

2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.

2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.

2.91 When it is said to them, ?Believe in what God Hath sent down, ?they say, ?We believe in what was sent down to us? yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say ?Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe??

Here the Koran clearly states the Koran confirms what is with them, meaning the Jews and Christians. Clearly this is not stating scriptures ofthe past but what they have possession of. As I did my research about this subject some time ago I was looking for where this evidence of the tampering and corruption is mentioned. How can God say the previous scriptures are corupted then order them to follow them. It even attacks those who refuse to follow it and says its a confimation of the scriptures they have with them.

Whats more the Koran seems to indicate its a confirmation of the previous scriptures.

To thee We sent the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that came before it, and guarding it in safety so judge between them by what God hath revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that hath come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law and an open way. If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He hath given you so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute; Surah 5 Verse 48

It even uses the previous scripture as evidence for the validity of the Koran

And if thou (Muhammad) art in doubt concerning that which We reveal unto thee, then question those who read the Scripture (that) was before thee... (Surah 10, Jonah, verse 94)

Muslims who follow Sunni/Shia Islam say these verses are concerning the originals. But these scriptures have not changed since the days of the prophet. In fact they are the way are today long before the prophet. So what scriptures was the Koran talking about. They then point to this verse as evidence.

2.79 Then woe to those who write the Book with their own hands, and then say"This is from God," to traffic with it for miserable price!- Woe to them for what their hands do write, and for the gain they make thereby.
This is then used to support the tampering of the scriptures. However upon close examination, I see they failed to look at the verse before it and after it.

2.78 And there are among them illiterates, who know not the Book, but (see therein their own) desires, and they do nothing but conjecture.
So the Koran is saying those poeple were making things up but never said the Book itself has been tampered since those people never knew the book. It was confusing at first but then the next verse explained it

2.80 And they say "The Fire shall not touch us but for a few numbered days" Say "Have ye taken a promise from God, for He never breaks His promise? or is it that ye say of God what ye do not know?"

This is not in the Torah but its refering to the Talmud. The supposed "oral" traditions the Rabbis say was passed down to them.

The Rabbinic tradition arose from the Pharisaic tradition after the destruction of the Second Temple in AD 70. In general, it moved away from traditional Judaism's emphasis on an earthly future for Israel toward the concept of reward in the life to come. Gehinom (Gehenna), according to rabbinic literature, is a place or state where the wicked are temporarily punished after death. ?Gehenna? is sometimes translated as "hell", but the Christian view of hell differs from the Jewish view of Gehenna. Most sinners are said to suffer in Gehenna no longer than twelve months.Those who are too wicked to reach paradise are sometimes said to be punished forever. Other accounts reject the idea that a merciful God would punish anyone forever, in which case those too wicked for purification are destroyed (see annihilationism)
Gehenna - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Also in the Talmud
Sanhedrin 57a . A Jew need not pay a gentile ("Cuthean&quot the wages owed him for work.

Koran says
3.75. Among the People of the Book are some who, if entrusted with a hoard of gold, will (readily) pay it back; others, who, if entrusted with a single silver coin, will not repay it unless thou constantly stoodest demanding, because, they say, "there is no call on us (to keep faith) with these ignorant (Pagans)." but they tell a lie against God, and (well) they know it.

Sanhedrin 106a . Says Jesus' mother was a whore "She who was the descendant of princes and governors played the harlot with carpenters." Also in footnote #2 to Shabbath 104b of the Soncino edition, it is stated that in the "uncensored" text of the Talmud it is written that Jesus mother, "Miriam the hairdresser," had sex with many men.

4.156 Quran
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;

The famous warning of Jesus Christ about the tradition of men that voids Scripture (Mark 71-13), is in fact, a direct reference to the Talmud, or more specifically, the forerunner of the first part of it, the Mishnah, which existed in oral form during Christ's lifetime, before being committed to writing. Mark chapter 7, from verse one through thirteen, represents Our Lord's pointed condemnation of the Mishnah.
Also

The Schindler's List Quote

The Talmud (i.e., the Babylonian Talmud) text of Sanhedrin 37a restricts the duty to save life to saving only Jewish lives.
The book on Hebrew censorship, written by Jews themselves (Hesronot Ha-shas), notes that some Talmud texts use the universalist phrase
"Whoever destroys the life of a single human being...it is as if he had destroyed an entire world; and whoever preserves the life of a single human being ...it is as if he had preserved an entire world."
However, Hesronot Ha-shas points out that these are not the authentic words of the original Talmud.

In other words, the preceding universalist rendering is not the authentic text of the Talmud and thus, for example, this universalist version which Steven Spielberg in his famous movie, Schindler's List attributed to the Talmud (and which became the motto of the movie on posters and in advertisements), is a hoax and constitutes propaganda intended to give a humanistic gloss to a Talmud which is, in its essence, racist and chauvinist hate literature.

In the authentic, original Talmud text it states that "whoever preserves a single soul of Israel, it is as if he had preserved an entire world" (emphasis supplied). The authentic Talmud text sanctions only the saving of Jewish lives.

The Koran tells us about this and condemns this
5.32 On that account We ordained for the Children of Israel that if any one slew a person - unless it be for murder or for spreading mischief in the land - it would be as if he slew the whole people and if any one saved a life, it would be as if he saved the life of the whole people. Then although there came to them Our apostles with clear signs, yet, even after that, many of them continued to commit excesses in the land

"According to the Talmud, Jesus was executed by a proper rabbinical court for idolatry, inciting other Jews to idolatry, and contempt of rabbinical authority. All classical Jewish sources which mention his execution are quite happy to take responsibility for it; in the talmudic account the Romans are not even mentioned.

"The more popular accounts--which were nevertheless taken quite seriously--such as the notorious Toldot Yeshu are even worse, for in addition to the above crimes they accuse him of witchcraft. The very name 'Jesus' was for Jews a symbol of all that is abominable and this popular tradition still persists...

The koran tells us
4.157. That they said (in boast), "We killed Christ Jesus the son of Mary, the Messenger of God.;- but they killed him not, nor crucified him, but so it was made to appear to them, and those who differ therein are full of doubts, with no (certain) knowledge, but only conjecture to follow, for of a surety they killed him not-

The Talmud then say
Rosh Hashanah 17a. Christians (minnim) and others who reject the Talmud will go to hell and be punished there for all generations.
Sanhedrin 90a. Those who read the New Testament ("uncanonical books&quot will have no portion in the world to come.
Shabbath 116a. Jews must destroy the books of the Christians, i.e. the New Testament.

The koran responds by
And they say "None shall enter Paradise unless he be a Jew or a Christian." Those are their (vain) desires. Say "Produce your proof if ye are truthful."Nay,-whoever submits His whole self to God and is a doer of good,- He will get his reward with his Lord; on such shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve. The Jews say "The Christians have naught (to stand) upon; and the Christians say "The Jews have naught (To stand) upon." Yet they study the (same) Book. Like unto their word is what those say who know not; but God will judge between them in their quarrel on the Day of Judgment. 2.111-113

?Non-Jewish property belongs to the Jew who uses it first? - (Babba Bathra 54b)
?If two Jews have deceived a Non-Jew, they have to split the profit? - (Choschen Ham 183,7)
?Every Jew is allowed to use lies and perjury to bring a Non-Jew to ruin? - (Babha Kama 113a)
?The Jew is allowed to practice usury on the Non-Jew? - (Talmud IV/2/70b)

The koran then says
4.160. For the iniquity of the Jews We made unlawful for them certain (foods) good and wholesome which had been lawful for them;- in that they hindered many from God's Way;-
4.161. That they took usury, though they were forbidden; and that they devoured men's substance wrongfully;- we have prepared for those among them who reject faith a grievous punishment.

Note The Torah forbids the Jews from the devouring of Usury ("neshek&quot.See the Old Testament Ex. 22 25;
Le. 25 36-37; De. 2319-20; Ne. 5 7/10; Ps. 15 5; Pr. 288

The Koran then says
4.162. But those among them who are well-grounded in knowledge, and the believers, believe in what hath been revealed to thee and what was revealed before thee And (especially) those who establish regular prayer and practise regular charity and believe in God and in the Last Day To them shall We soon give a great reward.

Talmudic quotes taken from
Truth About the Talmud Judaism's Holiest Book

As for Gospel

Jesus is reported to have said ?he that hath seen me hath seen the Father? and ?I am in the Father, and the Father in me? (John 149-10); but in the same passage he shortly goes on to add ?At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.? (John 1420) Again, while Jesus does proclaim ?I and my Father are one? (John 1030), he also prays for his followers, ?that they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us.? (John 1721) Whatever the nature of the ?oneness? Jesus is claiming exists between God and himself, it is apparently something that is supposed to hold between God and all Christians ? in which case it can hardly be the relation of numerical identity.
Likewise, in the two New Testament passages where Jesus is said to have regarded himself as ?equal with God? ? John 518 and Philippians 26 ? the Greek word translated ?equal? is isos, which means ?on the same level? or ?of the same rank,? never ?identical.? The claim that Jesus was God did not become Christian orthodoxy until the Council of Nicaea in 325 CE. The orthodox reading of these passages seems natural today only because they are read through the lens of what ?everybody knows? about Jesus? claims to divinity; few would find incarnationism in the texts unless they first brought it there.
An objector may point to the opening lines of the Gospel of John, which apparently identify the ?Logos? with God (John 11) and the ?Logos made flesh? with Jesus (John 114). Of course these lines were not spoken by Jesus, and so do not show that Jesus himself claimed to be God; but in any case, what exactly are they saying? The relation between God and the Logos seems to fall short of strict identity; the Greek, literally translated, says something like ?the Logos was with the God, and God is what the Logos was? ? an awkward construction clearly trying to express a subtler relation than identity. The term ?Logos? is borrowed from Greek philosophy, where it means a thing?s abstract rational nature; the Logos that is ?with? God and is what God is, is not God but God?s nature. To say that Jesus is the Logos made flesh, then, is simply to say that he is a physical embodiment of God?s nature. This hardly makes him identical with God, since all human beings are supposed to be created from God?s spirit (Genesis 27) and in God?s image and likeness (Genesis 126-27).
Indeed the New Testament authors clearly understand Jesus as offering everyone the opportunity to be sons (and daughters) of God and to partake of God?s nature

?But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.? (John 112-13)
?For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. ... And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ.? (Romans 814-17)
?Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him.? (1 John 32)
As the New Testament authors understand Jesus? message, being the ?Son of God? is evidently not a status that Jesus claims for himself alone, but one that is open to all Christians;
In a Blog's Stead - February 2004
Clearly this has no basis in the Gospel, the Koran reiterates this

People of the Book, do not go beyond the bounds in your religion, and say nought as to God but the Truth. The messiah, Jesus, son of Mary, was only the messenger of God, and his word that he committed to Mary, and a spirit originating from Him. So believe in God and His Messengers, and say not 'Three'. Refrain, better is for you. God is only one God. Glory be to him-that He should have a son! To Him belongs all that is in the Heavens and in the Earth; God suffices for a guardian. (4.171)

"And they say, The All-Merciful has taken unto Himself a son. You have indeed advanced something hideous. As if the skies are about to burst, the earth to split asunder and its mountain to fall down in the utter ruin for that they have attributed to the All-merciful a son; and behaves not the All-merciful to take a son. None there in the heavens and earth but comes to the All-Merciful as a servant" (Maryam 1988-93)

There is nothing, absolutely nothing about corruption or tampering of previous scriptures. The Koran states that the Talmud is NOT the word of God and says the Christian priests are NOT following the Gospel but indeed they hide and conceal and take things out of context and following vain desires

"They (i.e. Jews and Christians) changed words from their contexts and forgot a good part of the message given to them, and you will continue to find them -except a few among them- bent on new deceits?" (513)

There is among them a section who distort the Book with their tongues (as they read) you would think it is a part of the Book, but it is no part of the Book; and they say, 'That is from God,' but it is not from God It is they who tell a lie against God and (well) they know it! (3,7

Then is it only a part of the Book that ye believe in, and do ye reject the rest? But what is the reward for those among you who behave like this but disgrace in this life? - And on the Day of Judgment they shall be consigned to the most grievous penalty. For God is not unmindful of what ye do. ( 2,85)

Conclusion

The Koran never condemned the previous scriptures but said it should be obeyed and referedto them as Books of guidance. Wen it condemned it condemned the oraltraditions. Not all thats in the Talmud is fabricated but like hadiths they are not the main source of guidance.

Rami