The Quran and The Legends of the Jews
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And the Koran also says that the Jews were told to observe the sabbath. Are you? You are mixing stuff. Unless you believe in abrogation. The Koran also talks about pilgrimage. Does the Gospel mention that? These are human laws for humans. They change as circumstances change. They are trials and tribulations. But Divine law does not. You must not mix the two. The koran itself has different guidelines about sexual misconduct and what should be done with murderers. Different verses give different recomendation to the people of Medina. It is up to us humans to find the appropriate measure to run our societies. You are making the same mistake the Islamist did when they regraded religion as a state enterprise. Lets look at what the Koran says about the previous scriptures
Let the People of the Gospel judge by what God hath revealed therein. If any do fail to judge by (the light of) what God hath revealed, they are (no better than) those who rebel. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 47)
But why do they come to thee for decision, when they have (their own) Law before them?- Therein is the (plain) command of God; yet even after that, they would turn away. For they are not (really) people of faith. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 43)
Say "O People of the Book! Ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord...." (Surah 5, Al Ma'idah, verse 6
If only they had stood fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that was sent to them from their Lord, they would have enjoyed happiness from every side. There is from among them a party on the right course But many of them follow a course that is evil. (Surah 5, Maida, verse 69)
2.41 And believe in what I reveal, confirming the revelation which is with you, and be not the first to reject Faith therein, nor sell My Signs for a small price; and fear Me, and Me alone.
2.89 And when there comes to them a Book from God, confirming what is with them,- although from of old they had prayed for victory against those without Faith,- when there comes to them that which they (should) have recognized, they refuse to believe in it but the curse of Allah is on those without Faith.
2.91 When it is said to them, Believe in what God Hath sent down, they say, We believe in what was sent down to us yet they reject all besides, even if it be Truth confirming what is with them. Say Why then have ye slain the prophets of Allah in times gone by, if ye did indeed believe?
So do you mean when I judge between the people I pick and choose any Law as long it is from the Quran or the Bible? Or did the Quran abrogate the bible? and what is the divine law?? is it the ten commandents? but one of them is the sabbath?! Do we observe sabbath?
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So do you mean when I judge between the people I pick and choose any Law as long it is from the Quran or the Bible? Or did the Quran abrogate the bible? and what is the divine law?? is it the ten commandents? but one of them is the sabbath?! Do we observe sabbath?
Divine law is the laws in the Koran that always is. Like adultery, stealing, lying, betrayal, miserliness, greed, selfishness, murder etc. Of course kufr and disbelief also. These are the divine laws. They are always outlawed. Praying, fasting, generosity, sincerity, truthfulness, forgiveness, tolerance, charity and of course faith are all obligatory and do not change and are part of the human experience. At least thats how i see it.
As far as sabbath is concerned Jesus answered that question and he seperated between human law and divine law. I don't have the quote now but you can find it.
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Divine law is the laws in the Koran that always is. Like adultery, stealing, lying, betrayal, miserliness, greed, selfishness, murder etc. Of course kufr and disbelief also. These are the divine laws. They are always outlawed. Praying, fasting, generosity, sincerity, truthfulness, forgiveness, tolerance, charity and of course faith are all obligatory and do not change and are part of the human experience. At least thats how i see it.
As far as sabbath is concerned Jesus answered that question and he seperated between human law and divine law. I don't have the quote now but you can find it.
"The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 227).
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Peace Rami,
The Book of Moses is fully detailed. Thats the statute book that is written in scrolls.
7145 And We wrote for him on the tablets from everything a lesson, and detailing all things. Take it with strength and order your people to take the best from it. I will show you the abode of the corrupt.The scripture says Moses was given "all kinds of enlightenments and details of everything". This is referring to what the Jews were advised to uphold; this is not the same as the Torah. The actual Torah was in place before the statute book. The quran is a confirmation of the Torah. Since the quran was revealed after the statute book, the quran is "fully detailed" for everyone, which is why it allows certain things that the statute book prohibits. It was the Torah that was fully detailed, not the statute book. The statute book only contained the details of what the Jews needed at the time. The quran contains the details of everything we need for all times...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace Rami,
The scripture says Moses was given "all kinds of enlightenments and details of everything". This is referring to what the Jews were advised to uphold; this is not the same as the Torah. The actual Torah was in place before the statute book. The quran is a confirmation of the Torah. Since the quran was revealed after the statute book, the quran is "fully detailed" for everyone, which is why it allows certain things that the statute book prohibits. It was the Torah that was fully detailed, not the statute book. The statute book only contained the details of what the Jews needed at the time. The quran contains the details of everything we need for all times...
Peace,
Ahmad
The Torah is before the book of Moses?! Then who was given the Torah then? Joseph? elektro
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Divine law is the laws in the Koran that always is. Like adultery, stealing, lying, betrayal, miserliness, greed, selfishness, murder etc. Of course kufr and disbelief also. These are the divine laws. They are always outlawed. Praying, fasting, generosity, sincerity, truthfulness, forgiveness, tolerance, charity and of course faith are all obligatory and do not change and are part of the human experience. At least thats how i see it.
As far as sabbath is concerned Jesus answered that question and he seperated between human law and divine law. I don't have the quote now but you can find it.
Ok, nice. But still you didn't even get close to answering the question of this thread. You told me the Bible is uncorrupted - no deletions and no additions. And you say the Talmud and the Mishnah are human traditions and not to be taken seriously. Then how the hell are there concepts found in the satanic oral jewish tradition not found in the Bible but found in the Quran. Choose one
- The Bible is extremely edited that the true Torah and Gospel is found dispersed through the Bible, the Apocrypha and the tradtions.
- The Talmud and Mishnah and the Apocrypha are divine revelations.
- The Quran is the work of a group of Rabbis.
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Ok, nice. But still you didn't even get close to answering the question of this thread. You told me the Bible is uncorrupted - no deletions and no additions. And you say the Talmud and the Mishnah are human traditions and not to be taken seriously. Then how the hell are there concepts found in the satanic oral jewish tradition not found in the Bible but found in the Quran. Choose one
- The Bible is extremely edited that the true Torah and Gospel is found dispersed through the Bible, the Apocrypha and the tradtions.
- The Talmud and Mishnah and the Apocrypha are divine revelations.
- The Quran is the work of a group of Rabbis.
The story of Abraham and the fire is only found in the Talmud and so is the story of how the Toor was raised over the Israelites during Moses. Also some of the stories about Solomon is also only found in the Talmud and not Torah or even Gospel. Sorry, but as you should know by now we do not have all this answers you are asking but my intention is to show that not everything you said was fully correct as is the case with many discussions we have here. There is no black and white answers like the Talmud is evil etc just like you can not say all hadiths are lies and evil. But the Koran only seemed to have condemned information found in the Talmud which does not mean all the Talmud. However the Koran REPEATEDLY refered to itself as a confirmation, not correction, of the previous scriptures. And never once indicated that the previous scriptures should be abandoned or abrogated or ignored.
Most people here have gotten used to 80% answers that do not answer all the question raised in many subjects. There is simply no black and white when it comes to religion.
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But see how the Earth is completed before the heavens. But whatever there are other things in the Quran thats found in the Legends and no where in the Bible. Take the seven heavens for example! I mean what? Did these concepts was part of the original revelations? Therefore the torah is corrupted?! so what about the dead sea scrolls which proves the Torah at the time of the prophet is that we have today!
You need to observe the root word used. The primary root is that of "rotation". But since it uses an "al", I believe that's referring to all the root words.
To rotate, bring forth herbs abundantly. Land abundant, fruitful, productive, luxuriant with herbage. Place for alighting or abiding. To tarry, await, expect, be patient. "Earth, as opposed to heaven and the ground, as meaning the surface of the earth, on which we tread, and sit, and lie". Good land. Remain, fixed, tarry in expectation . Heavy, slow, sluggish, inclining, or propending to the ground. Submissive. A carpet, anything that is spread. A tremor, vertigo arising from a relaxed state. Wood-fretter, termite.
And no it may not refer to this Earth we're on, or even a planet. But something else.
As for the Dead Sea Scrolls, they barely date from 150BC - 70AD. The torah is supposed to be older than that.
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The story of Abraham and the fire is only found in the Talmud and so is the story of how the Toor was raised over the Israelites during Moses. Also some of the stories about Solomon is also only found in the Talmud and not Torah or even Gospel. Sorry, but as you should know by now we do not have all this answers you are asking but my intention is to show that not everything you said was fully correct as is the case with many discussions we have here. There is no black and white answers like the Talmud is evil etc just like you can not say all hadiths are lies and evil. But the Koran only seemed to have condemned information found in the Talmud which does not mean all the Talmud. However the Koran REPEATEDLY refered to itself as a confirmation, not correction, of the previous scriptures. And never once indicated that the previous scriptures should be abandoned or abrogated or ignored.
Most people here have gotten used to 80% answers that do not answer all the question raised in many subjects. There is simply no black and white when it comes to religion.
The Bible is edited for sure. Period.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legends_and_the_Qur'anPeace
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Peace Rami,
The Torah is before the book of Moses?! Then who was given the Torah then? Joseph? elektro
Here is my personal interpretation of the scriptures... The Torah is the book that GOD sent down through the prophets, and it was first given to Abraham (2136; 384) and passed through his offspring, the Patriarchs. The statute book was given to Moses later, after the Torah had already been revealed. So, Moses was given the Torah before he was given the statute book (253). Jesus was also taught the Torah, but he was given the Gospel/Injeel later as a means to confirm it and to make revoke some of their prohibitions (350).
GOD knows best...
Peace,
Ahmad
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Thanks Ayman for the explanation. But what about the dead sea scrolls, none of these legends are found in them. God in the Quran asks people to bring the Torah and recite it. What Torah is this? This means the real Torah was found between the DSS and todays version??
Peace,
Respectfully.I believe that if we compare The Quran to today's Bible and/or Torah, we'll find the Real Bible and/or Torah, God willing. Of course, it is possible that the people who corrupted both books have destroyed part of the Original message but i doubt that a human being can corrupt God's message beyond recognition. God knows best.
God knows best.
Glory be to our God.
Peace. -
I believe that if we compare The Quran to today's Bible and/or Torah, we'll find the Real Bible and/or Torah, God willing. Of course, it is possible that the people who corrupted both books have destroyed part of the Original message but i doubt that a human being can corrupt God's message beyond recognition. God knows best.
Salam Alen,
I agree with your opinion.
Although I don't believe any of God's message within those books is being destroyed.
The human authored "corruption" came by adding something to it.
(the same mechanism is being applied on Hadith as human made additional materials)That's why there are so many contradictions found within and or among those books.
But I see it as; that's how the defense mechanism works within God's books.
Rest assured that every human addition/corruption to the message is countered by another message that 'refute' it.
And God's instruction is clear Take the best of those messages.It is a some form of a test as well... to take the best of those messages. (Including the messages within the Quran)
As we're fully equiped with mind and conscience to judge between truth and falsehood.Salam / Peace
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Peace Rami,
Here is my personal interpretation of the scriptures... The Torah is the book that GOD sent down through the prophets, and it was first given to Abraham (2136; 384) and passed through his offspring, the Patriarchs.
Peace all
Bilal, according to Quran, the Torah was not revealed in the time of Jecob "Israel". thus, Abraham did not have the Torah.(
All food was lawful to the Children of Israel, except what Israel made unlawful for itself before the Torah was revealed. Say "Bring ye the Torah and study it if ye be men of truth." (3-93)The verses you metioned states that book was revealed in the time of Abraham. But we do not know the name.
Peace -
Assalaam Alaikum
People....Believers...
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The Injeel as defined in the Quran is NOT Gospel of Jesus or Paul or anyone. Nor is it reflected in the 'Bible'
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The Al-Tawrat and Al-Toori as defined in the Quran is NOT the Hebraic 'Torah'
The entire forum seems to be fixated and obsessed with this false interpretation.
(They have incurred divine displeasure). In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";- No, Allah has set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
Did NOT the Jews claim they killed Essa,as and slandered Maryam,as?
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Assalaam Alaikum
People...Believers...
Textual commentary and documentation of Jewish perceptions of Essa,as and Maryam,as....slander, blasphemy and vulgarity....
http//ccat.sas.upenn.edu/~humm/Topics/JewishJesus/
John 849....Then answered the Jews, and said unto him, Say we know well that thou art a Samaritan, and is a devil?
Confirmation from the Quran.....
(They have incurred divine displeasure). In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the ghulfun / wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";- No, Allah has set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-
ghulfun means hearts are covered from hearing and accepting the truth; THEIR/OUR books (Torah, Talmud, Mishna, Gemmara, Halakaic Law, etc.) of knowledge
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
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Assalaam Alaikum
People....Believers...
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The Injeel as defined in the Quran is NOT Gospel of Jesus or Paul or anyone. Nor is it reflected in the 'Bible'
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The Al-Tawrat and Al-Toori as defined in the Quran is NOT the Hebraic 'Torah'
The entire forum seems to be fixated and obsessed with this false interpretation.
(They have incurred divine displeasure). In that they broke their covenant; that they rejected the signs of Allah; that they slew the Messengers in defiance of right; that they said, "Our hearts are the wrappings (which preserve Allah's Word; We need no more)";- No, Allah has set the seal on their hearts for their blasphemy, and little is it they believe;-
That they rejected Faith; that they uttered against Mary a grave false charge;
Did NOT the Jews claim they killed Essa,as and slandered Maryam,as?
Peace MTR,
How do you interpret these verses
393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.
543 And how can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, in which is Gods judgment; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers.
566 And if they had upheld the Torah and the Injeel, and what was sent down to them from their Lord, they would have been rewarded from above them and below their feet. From among them is a pious nation, but most of them only do evil.
568 Say O people of the Scripture, you are not upon anything until you uphold the Torah and the Injeel and what was sent down to you from your Lord. And for many of them, what was sent down to you from your Lord will only increase them in transgression and rejection. So do not feel sorry for the rejecting people.
9111 God has purchased from the believers their very lives and their wealth, that they will have Paradise; they fight in the cause of God so they kill and are killed; a promise that is true upon Him in the Torah and the Injeel and the Quran. And whoever fulfills this vow with God, then have good news of the pledge which you are concluded with. Such is the supreme success.
547 And let the people of the Injeel judge with what God has sent down in it. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones.
Peace.
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Assalaam Alaikum
Look, all people are doing on this forum is just changing the reference to Tawrat to the Hebrew word 'Torah'. The Torah is Jewish Halakaic Law written and derived interpretations of Rabbinical Scholars.
Has nothing to do with the Quran, Tawrat, Toori or Injeel
The 'Torah Peddlers' will arrive shortly....