The Quran and The Legends of the Jews

unknownuser

Arnab, Stop 'thrashing' the thread in an attempt to 'bury' the truth, its fruitless.

The thread is 'The Quran and The Legends of the Jews'

NOT 'what Arnab thinks about someone else'

Typical MTR technique

He makes an absurd statement that is untrue (usually in big bold letters of multiple colors) and usually he makes two to four posts in a row on the same thread stating the same absurdities before anyone has even attempted to respond.
When someone points out the inconsistencies, misinterpretations, and flat out lies, he claims that the person is picking on him, attacking him, or somehow 'just doesn't like him' and that is why they are countering his argument. This is an attempt to put the other person on the defensive and thereby deflect from the fact that he has been proven wrong.

It just doesn't make sense to me to debate with you MTR. Even when you are proven wrong by someone else you throw a temper tantrum.

This is my last post to you on this subject.
I do have some important things to discuss with Rami on this thread that has to do with the true topic.

Arnab

Muslimtruthrevealed

Assalaam Aalaikum

Continuing with the formation of the 'Torah' (NOT to be confused with the Tawrat from Quran)

We have established.....

Exodus 1249?..One law / towrah shall be to him that is native / 'ezrach (to Israel), and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.

The Torah is ONLY relevant to those Jews in Israel. 'ezrach means to 'come from the soil, to be born in that land'

We have established.....

That the Torah which Moses 'wrote' and 'delivered' (between 1200 -1500 BCE) was 'destroyed' in 917 BCE during the reign of Rehoboam....

Deu 319 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bearers/protectors/responsible the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.

Then years later......

1Ki 1425 And it came to pass in the fifth year (917) of king Rehoboam, Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem

1Ki 1426 And he took away the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house; HE EVEN TOOK AWAY ALL and he took away all the shields of gold which Solomon had made.

The 'Torah' , the words 'written' and delivered to the people of Israel, priests and elders does NOT exist!

Now focusing on what Allah now has revealed to Moses NOT what Moses has written and distributed....

We have established that there is a CONTRADICTION between Moses 'prophecy' for the Israel and Allah's 'prophecy' for Israel....

Moses stated " he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them"

Allah stated " Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them , and I will hide my face from them , and THEY SHALL BE DEVOURED, and many evils and troubles shall befall them "

In the following, Allah and Moses are now making the distinction between the 'written' 'Torah' and Allah's 'Tawrat'

The writer uses the Hebrew word is ?shiyr?, pronounced like ?sheer? means to proclaim something to someone, speak or celebrate someone/something as if it were a song/melodic.

Its Hebrew root is /shuwr pronounced like the word ?sure-(a), related to the Arabic Root Sura

No Hebrew or Semetic words relating to ?shiyr? or 'shuwr' (Arabic 'Sura&#039 was used to describe what Moses 'wrote' in Deuteronomy 319.

?shiyr? or 'shuwr' (Arabic 'Sura&#039 is referenced ONLY after Allah has instructed Moses and the People of Israel to teach and recite the 'sura's

Deu 3119 Now therefore write ye this song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) for you, and teach it the children of Israel put it in their mouths, that this song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

Biblical Confirmation

Psalms 428 the LORD will command his loving kindness in the daytime, and in the night his song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) with me, my prayer unto the God of my life.

Believers RECITE from the song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) when performing salat / prayer

Thus Deuteronomy 31 is clearly showing a distinction between what is 'written' and what is 'revealed' the Hebrew Term

song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) is ONLY used in context with Al-Kitab, Quran, Furqan, Injeel and Tawrat NOT in reference to ANY context relating to a 'written' document termed 'Torah', that has since been destroyed.

I will address the following...to shed some light upon the 'Ark of the Covenant' from the Quran

Deu 3126 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

And (further) their Prophet said to them. "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant (Biblical influence), with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if you indeed have faith."

To Be Continued....

Muslimtruthrevealed

Assalaam Alaikum @arnab

I did not believe you wanted to 'go down this road'.....

No, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, FALSEHOOD DOES PERISH! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things you ascribe (to Us).

Rami

Peace MTR,

You still didn't answer the burning question of this thread. How is it that the Quran confirms stories from the Jewish folklore taking into account the Torah at the time of the prophet is the one we have today ( evidenced by the DSS and the Septaguint translation) and the Quran states it confirms whats before it and says to bring the Torah and recite it. The Quran never mentions anything about the divinity of the Jewish traditions and yet it seems to be confirming it. Unless you are saying that the 'Tawrat' is dispersed throughout the Jewish literature which is plausible but when did this dispersion occur and why??

Peace,

Rami

Muslimtruthrevealed

Assalaam Alaikum @Rami

Did you review my posts? Please review my posts your questions and assertions have been addressed

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597369.45

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597369.60

@Rami, As you will see by reviewing the previous posts, we have confirmed the following regarding the 'Torah'

The instructions in the 'written' Torah document is relevant ONLY to those 'born from the soil' of Israel (Exodus 1249)
That the Torah which Moses 'wrote' in Deuteronomy 319 and 'delivered' (between 1200 -1500 BCE) was 'destroyed' in 917 BCE during the reign of Rehoboam (1 KING 1425-26)
What Moses 'wrote' and 'delivered' in Deuteronomy 319, was REPLACED and/or SUPPLANTED with Allah's 'Tawrat' in Deuteronomy 3116 - 3118 as 'REVEALED' to Moses.
In Deuteronomy 3119 Moses is commanded by Allah to teach the people to RECITE the song's/sura's (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura)
We have established that there is a CONTRADICTION between Moses 'prophecy' for Israel and Allah's 'prophecy' for Israel....

Moses states in Deuteronomy 313 " he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them"

Allah states in Deuteronomy 3117 " Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them , and I will hide my face from them , and THEY SHALL BE DEVOURED, and many evils and troubles shall befall them "

@Rami your statement "How is it that the Quran confirms stories from the Jewish folklore taking into account the Torah at the time of the prophet is the one we have today"

The Quran is NOT confirming any 'Jewish folklore'
The 'Torah' was destroyed, the Prophet did NOT have the 'Torah' that was given to the priests and elders, the 'written' document. That NEVER existed during Muhammed's time.

Besides Allah states...

And you DID NOT RECITE BEFORE THIS BOOK YOU did NOT transcribe / write it with YOUR right hand / Hands. In that case, indeed, would the talkers of vanities have doubted.

@Rami your statement "Quran states it confirms whats before it and says to bring the Torah and recite it"

The Quran NEVER states, implies or suggests 'to bring the torah and recite it', How can you? When its not in existence!
Nor does the Quran state, suggest or imply that it 'confirms' the 'Torah', it doesn't have to, the Torah doesn't exist!
They are RECITING the 'sura's' from Al-Kitab as defined in

Deu 3119 Now therefore write ye this song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) for you, and teach it the children of Israel put it in their mouths, that this song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

Allah CONFIRMS....

And the Yahood/Jews say, ?That Nasara/Christians are not on anything.? And the Nasara/Christians say? that the Yahood/Jews are not on anything.? And both of them are RECITING AL-KITAB/THE BOOK

@Rami your statement "The Quran never mentions anything about the divinity of the Jewish traditions and yet it seems to be confirming it."

Now your contradicting yourself

@Rami your statement "Unless you are saying that the 'Tawrat' is dispersed throughout the Jewish literature which is plausible but when did this dispersion occur and why??"

The Tawrat has NOTHING to do with 'Torah', Nor does 'Torah' have anything to do with Tawrat

The 'Torah' argument or position as it relates to the Quran can be easily resolved by addressing the following question

Name any Quranic Prophet who is from the 'soil' of Israel and received the Torah from Moses who existed during the period of our discussion?

Rami

Peace MTR,

The instructions in the 'written' Torah document is relevant ONLY to those 'born from the soil' of Israel (Exodus 1249)

Even the Tawrat was used by the prophets to judge the Jews.

We have established that there is a CONTRADICTION between Moses 'prophecy' for Israel and Allah's 'prophecy' for Israel....

First, both are God's promises. The first one was through Joshua defeating the Amaleks. The second promise is that the Israelites will serve other gods and so God's punishment will befall on them. No connection and no contradiction whatsoever.

The Quran NEVER states, implies or suggests 'to bring the torah and recite it', How can you? When its not in existence!

Ponder over these verses

393 All the food was made lawful to the Children of Israel except what Israel forbade for himself before the Torah was sent down. Say Bring the Torah and recite it if you are truthful.

543 And how can they make you their judge when they have the Torah, in which is Gods judgment; then they turn away after that. Those are not believers.

We can conclude
-The Tawrat (NOT the Torah as per your undertstanding) existed at the time of the prophet.
-The Tawrat contains God's judgements and they are blamed for not judging by it.
-The Tawrat, if what you say is true, is lost after the prophet Muhammed. Which is a bit impossible due to the DSS and the septaguint translation matches what we have today.

And the Yahood/Jews say, That Nasara/Christians are not on anything. And the Nasara/Christians say that the Yahood/Jews are not on anything. And both of them are RECITING AL-KITAB/THE BOOK

WHERE IS THAT BOOK THAT THEY WERE RECITING!!??

Peace,

Rami

Muslimtruthrevealed

Excuse me Rami, the big bold text in red doesn't help your argument

@Rami, you have no 'Torah'...it was destroyed as 'written' documents and various other 'physical' material is destroyed during conquests.

1Ki 1425 And it came to pass in the fifth year (917) of king Rehoboam, Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem

1Ki 1426 And he took away the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house; he even took away all and he took away all the shields of gold which Solomon had made.

@Rami, Secondly, What was 'taught' to the people of Israel to 'recite' were the 'Sura' (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) that were 'REVEALED' from Allah to Mose's

Deu 3119 Now therefore write ye this song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) for you, and teach it the children of Israel put it in their mouths, that this song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.

The 'Torah' that Mose's 'wrote' and 'delivered' to the priests and elders was replaced and supplanted with Allah's revelation and 'Sura's.

Thus what Mose's 'wrote' and what was 'REVEALED' to Mose's from Allah are TWO distinct references

Is 'written' Books and papers which is Torah
Is revelation from Allah which is Tawrat
The revelation of Allah is ALWAYS referred to as Sura's
References to 'verses' in the 'Torah' are NEVER referred to as 'Sura's or even in Hebrew as shiyr/ /shuwr NEVER!

Sura's are used for prayer and praise!

Psalms 428 the LORD will command his loving kindness in the daytime, and in the night his song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) with me, my prayer unto the God of my life.

Believers RECITE from the song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) when performing salat / prayer

Sura Al-Baqarah 2.113 is identifying those Jews & Christians who are seeking, reciting, referring and referencing Al-Kitab, the root word of Yatloona is Tala which means ?to follow?, walk behind, imitate, pursue, Tilawatan means ?to read, recite, rehearse, declare, meditate

Question, why do you believe you can change the ENGLISH TRANSLATION and suddenly it means 'Torah'?

Explain that please

Rami

Peace MTR,

Excuse me Rami, the big bold text in red doesn't help your argument

Its not mine.

@Rami, you have no 'Torah'...it was destroyed as 'written' documents and various other 'physical' material is destroyed during conquests.

So the Tawrat is a metaphysical or a metaphorical entity. It is not something in written form.

The 'Torah' that Mose's 'wrote' and 'delivered' to the priests and elders was replaced and supplanted with Allah's revelation and 'Sura's.

This means Moses fabricated a book called the 'Torah' and God, without even punishing or questioning him for this fabrication, gave him the 'Tawrat' which is a metaphysical non-existent document made up of sura's. Todays 'Torah' has no relation to these two. Wait a minute. What about the Psalms. It is made up of songs. Is it from Allah's revelation?

Sura's are used for prayer and praise!

Believers RECITE from the song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) when performing salat / prayer

The Jews read Torah and Psalms in Shabbat. Are they Allah's revelations?

Sura Al-Baqarah 2.113 is identifying those Jews & Christians who are seeking, reciting, referring and referencing Al-Kitab, the root word of Yatloona is Tala which means to follow, walk behind, imitate, pursue, Tilawatan means to read, recite, rehearse, declare, meditate

Therefore the Jews and Christians are reciting the Book which should be composed of Sura(songs) as believers are reciting it. So this document actually exist. Where is it?

Question, why do you believe you can change the ENGLISH TRANSLATION and suddenly it means 'Torah'?

Because that what the Jews have as a primary book.

Ok so you are saying the Bible is a forgery and Allah's revelations are always made up of Sura's and the previous ones has been lost and replaced by the Bible and the apocrypha. If you start reading the Quran carefully, you will find that the previous revelations exist and fit to be used as a guidance. This means Allah's previous Sura-based revelations exist but hidden in a certain place or book?!

Peace

Rami

Muslimtruthrevealed

Rami

Im sorry, you lose credibility, when you deliberately change the 'relevance' of the Quran to suggest its referring to a document that nolonger exist and was written by the 'hands' of humans.

You appear to be arguing with your denial of the truth.

Im a Believer /Mumin, what 'Jews' are doing with their books and practices, is what 'Jews are doing. We are discussing what the Quran states about the 'Quran and Jews'

I believe I have illustrated clearly, again that the Torah as written by Mose's nolonger exists and Allah has revealed the Tawrat to the people to recite, reflect and as a guide.

If you have any specific questions, perhaps we can address them one at a time.

I await your response.

Rami

Rami

Im sorry, you lose credibility, when you deliberately change the 'relevance' of the Quran to suggest its referring to a document that no longer exist and was written by the 'hands' of humans.

I didn't lose anything. Your theory is plausible but can't be backed up archaeologically, linguistically, biblically, or Quranically. Sorry.

You appear to be arguing with your denial of the truth.

If I was really in denial of the truth, I would have left the Quran the moment I realised it talks about legends from the Jewish folklore.

Im a Believer /Mumin, what 'Jews' are doing with their books and practices, is what 'Jews are doing. We are discussing what the Quran states about the 'Quran and Jews'

The stories in the Quran is found in the Jewish literature. Period. I am a believer too btw.

I believe I have illustrated clearly, again that the Torah as written by Mose's no longer exists and Allah has revealed the Tawrat to the people to recite, reflect and as a guide.

Ok where is the Tawrat?? Forget the 'Torah' and todays old testament. Where is the real Tawrat?? I also believe that the Real Tawrat is different and this can be seen by the jewish rabbis talking about stories that are not even mentioned in the 'torah'. From where did they get these stories? Is it from the 'songs' of the real tawrat? If so how can we prove this?

Peace.

Rami

Rami

Enjoy reading this elektro

The Quran and Jewish Liturgy

The opening Surah of the Quran is very comparable to the traditional Jewish liturgy. Traditional Jewish blessings generally begin with

Baruch Atta Adonai, Eloheynu Melech HaOlam

"Blessed are you Lord our God, King of the universe/world"

Surah 11 reads (in Hebrew)

Baruch L'Elohim, Ribon HaOlamim

"Blessing to Elohim, Master of the Worlds."

In fact there is nothing about Surah 1 (apart from its being part of the Quran) that would prevent it from being uttered as a Jewish prayer. It could easily appear in a Jewish prayer book if it were not for the fact that someone might say... "wait a minute this is from the Quran!".

The Talmuds, Midrashim, Targums and the Quran

Many Quran stories and sayings appear elsewhere only in the Mishnah, Talmud, Midrashim and Targums.

Islamic teachers have often, unfortunately taught that the extra-biblical traditions of Judaism are false and are of no value to the Believer. On the contrary however the Quran makes it clear that many of the extra-biblical Jewish traditions preserved in the Midrashim, Talmuds, Mishna etc. contain truth.

A primary example is that of the story of Abraham and his father the idol maker. The same basic story appears in the Talmud, the Midrash Rabbah and the Midrash Sefer Ha-Yashar. It also appears in the Quran but it does NOT appear in the Bible at all.

The story appears this way in Midrash Rabbah Terah was an idolator once he went away and left Abraham to sell his idols. Whenever a buyer came, Abraham asked him his age. If he replied, I am fifty, or sixty years old, Abraham said 'Woe to the man of sixty who desires to worship the work of a day, so that the buyer went away ashamed.'1 Once a woman came, with a dish of wheat and said, 'Here, put this before them;' but Abraham took a stick and beat down all the idols, and put the stick into the hands of the largest idol when his father returned, he said, 'Who has done this?'

On which Abraham replied, 'Why should I deny it?, A woman came with a dish of wheat and bade me set it in front of them. I had scarcely done so when each wanted to eat before the other, and the greatest beat them all down with the stick which he had in his hand. Terah said 'What art thou inventing for me?

Have they then understanding?' Abraham replied, 'Do thine ears not hear what thy month says?' Then Terah took him and gave him over to Nimrod, who said 'We will worship fire.' Abraham said 'Rather water, which extinguishes. ' Nimrod replied 'Water then.' 'Rather the cloud which carries water.' 'The cloud then.' 'Rather the wind which scatters the cloud.' 'The wind then.' 'Rather men, who endure the wind. Nimrod at this became angry and said

'Thou art only making a speech. I worship fire and will throw thee into it. The God whom thou dost worship may come and save thee out of it.' Abraham was then thrown into a glowing furnace, but was saved from it. (Midrash Rabbah on Gen. Paragraph 3

A comparison of this story with the parallel story in the Quarn reveals unique similarities in the Qur'an and the Midrash which appear nowhere in the Bible.

The Qur'anic account of Abraham and the idols commences in Sura 674 where Abraham is quoted as saying "Takest thou idols for gods?" and this theme is then expanded in Sura 2151-71. It is exactly the same theme as the Midrash where Abraham takes issue over the idols of his father.

The shared themes in the Midrashic account

The Midrashic account is cited here and the Qur'anic equivalent can be found in the ayats in the brackets.

Abraham's father accused of being an idolater "Terah (Abraham's father) was a manufacturer of idols" ie. He was an idolater. (52)
"He once went away somewhere and left Abraham..." (57)
Abraham breaks all the idols except the biggest "So he took a stick, broke them, (the idols) and put the stick in the hand of the largest." (5
"When his father returned he demanded, 'What have you done to them?'" (59)

(In the Qur'anic account this demand is made by his father and the people.) Abraham claims "Thereupon the largest arose, took the stick, and broke them." (63)

Abraham is seized and delivered up for judgement "Thereupon he seized him and delivered him to Nimrod." (6

The Qur'an does not mention by name who was to punish Abraham.

Abraham is saved from the fire

"When Abram descended into the fiery furnace and was saved..." (69)

All the above points are unique both to the Qur'anic and the Midrashic accounts.

They do not appear anywhere in the Bible.

Another example is the story of the Queen of Sheba (Surah 2720-44) which appears elsewhere only in a Midrash interjected in a Targum to Esther

Then the wild rooster replied before King Solomon, saying to him; 'Hear my words, My Lord, O king, incline your ear and listen (to) my utterances. Have not three months (passed) that I have given advice and counsel; my words are truth; I did not eat food, nor did I drink water before I flew throughout the whole world inspecting it, saying; Is there a country whose ruler is not subservient to my lord, O king? Whereupon I noticed a certain country in the land of the East, its name was the city of Qitor, whose dust is so precious and whose gold and silver exists like dung in the streets.

They do not know anything about waging war; they are unable to draw the bow; However, truly I have seen a single woman rule over them and her name is the Queen of Sheba.

Then the scribes of the king were summoned and they wrote a letter and tied the letter to the wing of the wild rooster, which proceeded to ascend heavenward and soared soaringly. It then flew among the birds which proceeded to follow it in flight; they went on to the city of Qitor to the land of Sheba. Towards morning the Queen of Sheba went out to worship the sea (? ) - when (suddenly) the birds obscured the sunlight, which caused her to take hold of her clothes and tear them. Whereupon she was very stunned. As she was in her very stunned state, the wild rooster descended towards her, and she observed a letter tied to is wing.

So she untied (it) and read it; and what was written in it? - From me, the kingdom of Solomon Peace to you, peace to your princes.

As you know; the Holy One, Blessed be He, appointed me to reign over the wild beasts, over the fowl of the heavens and over demons and spirits.

Now all the kings of the East, the West, the South and the North come to greet me. Now if you wish to come and greet me, I will show you greater honour than all those whom I have hosted before me.

But if you do not wish to come and greet me, I will send kings and legions against you (which belong) to King Solomon.

The wild beasts are the kings, the fowl of the heavens are the raiders, the armies are the spirits, and the demons and the Liliths are the legions (who will) strangle you in your beds inside your houses; the wild beasts will kill you in the field; the fowl of the heavens (will) eat your flesh from you.

When the Queen of Sheba heard the words of the letter, she took hold of her clothes and tore them. She then summoned her elders and princes and said to them; 'Do you know what King Solomon told me?' They replied, saying 'We do not know King Solomon nor do we recognise his kingdom.

' But she did not trust (them) and did not heed their words. She summoned all the ships of the sea and had them loaded with bracelets, pearls and precious gems. She then wrote a letter and sent it to King Solomon.......

'And now, with prayer and supplication which I will plead before you, I will come to you at the end of three years,' Now it came about at the end of three years that the Queen of Sheba came to King Solomon.

Now when King Solomon heard that she was coming to him, King Solomon arose and went to sit down in a bathhouse. When the Queen saw that the king was sitting in a bathhouse, she thought to herself the king must be sitting in water. So she raised her dress to wade across.

Whereupon he noticed the hair on her leg, to which King Solomon responded by saying 'Your beauty is the beauty of women, but your hair is the hair of men. Now hair is beautiful for a man but shameful for a woman.' Whereupon the Queen of Sheba answered saying to him O lord king 'I will cite you three riddles;

if you will solve them for me I will acknowledge that you are a wise man, but if not, (you are) like the rest of mankind....

Whereupon she commented, saying to him 'I would not have believed it. Praiseworthy are these your servants.' Whereupon he brought her into the royal palace. Now when the Queen of Sheba saw the greatness and glory of King Solomon, she offered praise to the One Who created him, saying 'Blessed be the Lord, your God who has chosen you to place you on the throne of His kingdom to do righteousness and justice.' She then gave the king a great deal of fine gold while the king gave her what she desired.

One final example is Sura 527-32 which is the Qur'anic story of Cain and Abel. Initially, the Torah and the Qur'an basically agree on the narrative, however in ayat 31, the two diverge.

Then God sent down a raven, which dug the earth to show him how to bury the naked corpse of his brother. (Sura 531)

We find a striking parallel between the Quran and a Jewish Midrash, the "Pirke Rabbi Eliezer". In Pirke Rabbi Eliezer we find this story

Adam and his companion sat weeping and mourning for him (Abel) and did not know what to do with him as burial was unknown to them. Then came a raven, whose companion was dead, took its body, scratched in the earth, and hid it before their eyes;

then said Adam, "I shall do as this raven has done", and at once he took Abel's corpse, dug in the earth and hid it. The similarity is obvious. The only difference is that the Qur'an says Cain did the burying, the Midrash says Adam did the burying.

The next Qur'anic verse further illustrates the point

That is why We laid it down for the Israelites that whoever killed a human being, except as punishment for murder or other villainy in the land, shall be deemed as though he had killed all mankind; and that whoever saved a human life shall be deemed as though he had saved all mankind. (Sura 532)

Initially, there appears to be no connection between verses 31 and 32. Why the life or death of one should be as the salvation or destruction of all mankind in not made clear in the Qur'an. When we turn to another Jewish record - the Mishnah, we find the link between the story and what follows

We find it said in the case of Cain who murdered his brother, "The voice of thy brother's bloods crieth" (Gen. 410).

It is not said here blood in the singular, but bloods in the plural, that is, his own blood and the blood of his seed. Man was created single in order to show that to him who kills a single individual it shall be reckoned that he has slain the whole race, but to him who preserves the life of a single individual it is counted that he hath preserved the whole race. m.Sanhedrin 45

Because the word for blood is in the plural in Gen. 410 the Mishah teaches that all Abel's offspring had been killed with him which signified that any murder or life-saving act had universal implications.

Here is a clear instance where a study of the Mishnah sheds light and gives greater understanding to the Quran!

Muslimtruthrevealed

Assalaam Alaikum @Rami

Lets get beyond the satirical and rhetorical. Again, I am a Believer / Mumin in the Quran. Im NOT concerned about rabbi's, other books and what humans wrote.

By the way, Cain and Abel is NOT mentioned in the Quran, and the satirical story regarding Abraham and his 'Father' are both Biblical and Judaic creations.

Obviously, you are basing your interpretations upon the Christian and Judaic English translations of the Quran influenced by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians.

We can discuss those satirical interpretations from the language and grammar of the Quran in another post or thread.

Lets address your question 'Where is the Tawrat?", which leads us to the discussion of the 'Ark of The Covenant'.

Deu 3126 Take this book of the law / towrah / Tawrat, and put it / suwm in the side of / tsad the ark / 'arown of the covenant / briyth of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

put it / suwm means to set, ordain, establish, found, appoint, constitute, make, determine, fix
ark / 'arown means chest, as in human being's 'chest' which contains the heart
covenant / briyth means covenant, alliance, pledge between God and man

Psalms 407 Then said I, Lo, I come in the volume of the book / cepher written in me / kathab (Qalpassive),

Psalms 408 I delight to do thy will, O my God yea, thy law / towrah / Tawrat within / tavek my heart / me`ah .

tavek means to be in the middle (i.e. heart is in the middle of the chest), in something, between TWO objects or entities (i.e. Tawrat & the Heart)

me`ah means the breast, the Heart, place of emotions or distress or love

The Tawrat is in the heart of the Believer/Mumin, witnessed and confirmed as a covenant between Allah and the Believer/Mumin

Quranic Confirmation

And (further) their Prophet said to them. "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the 'Ark of the covenant' / yatiyakumu at-tabootu / , with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if you indeed have faith."

yatiyakumu means something is coming to you that you will obey and be intimately associated with; in you, part of you

at-tabootu means what is contained in the chest, heart, liver various organs; the Hebrew briyth, is used in the reference as the linguistic equivalent; See Lanes Lexicon Part 1 page 321, middle column

And how can they govern you? And At-Tawrat / The Law is near them / , in it is hukum / government of Allah. Then after that they turn away and they are not with the believers.

AAinda-humu is a preposition which means AT or NEAR Them

Its clear from both the language and grammar associated with the Biblical text and the Quranic text, that the Tawrat is 'revelation' inspired upon the 'heart' of the Believer / Mumin, its that simple.

Now If you know of some obscure 'heart' surgery that can place books of papers or 'stone tablets' in the chest cavity of humans, and stamp them with the Hebrew word 'Torah' please give us that reference.

AlFajr

Peace all,
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whomever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good work; they will have their reward with their Lord, with no fear over them, nor will they grieve.

How is the above even possible unless there are books other than the Quran which contain the truth.

384 Say ?We believe in God and what was sent down to us and what was sent down to Abraham and Ishmael and Isaac and Jacob and the Patriarchs, and what was given to Moses and Jesus and the prophets from their Lord. We do not make any distinction between them, and to Him we submit.?

These verses are clear.

37 He is the One who sent down to you the Scripture, from which there are governing verses; they are the essence of the Scripture; and others which are similar. As for those who have disease in their hearts, they will follow what is similar from it seeking to confuse, and seeking to derive an interpretation. But none know its interpretation except God and those who are well founded in knowledge; they say ?We believe in it, all is from our Lord.? And none will remember except the people of understanding.

Rami

Peace MTR,

Lets get beyond the satirical and rhetorical. Again, I am a Believer / Mumin in the Quran. Im NOT concerned about rabbi's, other books and what humans wrote.

What about the previous revelations? Weren't there any? Like the Quran is the only written revelations. What about the Book of Moses? Wasn't it written in scrolls?

By the way, Cain and Abel is NOT mentioned in the Quran, and the satirical story regarding Abraham and his 'Father' are both Biblical and Judaic creations.

The story of Abraham and the Fire is in the Quran.

Obviously, you are basing your interpretations upon the Christian and Judaic English translations of the Quran influenced by Arabic speaking Jews and Christians.

No. I read the Quran in Arabic and I have never heard of this nonsense before.

The Tawrat is in the heart of the Believer/Mumin, witnessed and confirmed as a covenant between Allah and the Believer/Mumin

How is that possible if Tawrat is a LAW. If the Tawrat is simply in the heart of the believer, what is the point of the Injeel and the Quran. Just believe and voila your heart will guide you.

And (further) their Prophet said to them. "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the 'Ark of the covenant' / yatiyakumu at-tabootu / , with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if you indeed have faith."

How is the angels carrying the ark?? Chest means 'sadr' not 'taboot'.

And how can they govern you? And At-Tawrat / The Law is near them / , in it is hukum / government of Allah. Then after that they turn away and they are not with the believers.

Its clear from both the language and grammar associated with the Biblical text and the Quranic text, that the Tawrat is 'revelation' inspired upon the 'heart' of the Believer / Mumin, its that simple.

This is very far fetched explanation. Why God is saying that only to them. All believers must have Tawrat. If they are not believers, they dont have the Tawrat. So either way, it is non-senical.

Now If you know of some obscure 'heart' surgery that can place books of papers or 'stone tablets' in the chest cavity of humans, and stamp them with the Hebrew word 'Torah' please give us that reference.

Again, 'Taboot' means Ark or some kind of coffin or container but the chest cavity is called 'sadr'. No need for sci-fi cardiothorcacic surgery from hell.

Man, What's your secret. Take it easy.

Peace,

Rami

Muslimtruthrevealed

Assalaam Alaikum @Rami

Again, your arguing with yourself.....going round in circles with your own denial. Will you please address the evidence I presented, versus arguing in circles.

I gave you the reference that defines the meaning and linguistic 'use' of the word 'taboot', and all you give me is your denial?

Are you prepared and equipped to engage in this discussion?

Lets move on...

Now where is this fire that Ibraheem was thrown in? Is it a metaphor? satire? parable? or do you actually believe he was thrown into a fire?

Bigmo

Peace MTR,

There is a distinction between "altoori" and "altawrat" in the scriptures. It looks like you're confusing the two...

All food used to be lawful for the Children of Israel, until Israel imposed certain prohibitions on themselves before altawrat was sent down. Say, "Bring altawrat and read it, if you are truthful." (393)

In this case, "altawrat" is clearly speaking about the scriptures that the Jews/Hebrews receieved, which were sent down to the prophets of Israel. On the other hand

And We called him from altoori al-ayman, and We approached him secretly conversing. (1952)

The word used here is "TOOR", which refers to a mountain, not a scripture. Therefore, "altoor" would be translated in this case as "the mountain" (or the mount). The same is the case with 263.

And when We took your covenant, and We raised above you altoor, take what We gave you with strength, and remember what is in it, maybe you fear and obey. (263)

This verse is also clearly speaking about the mountain, not the scripture. This is not the same thing as "altawrat", which refers to the book. The Quran never says Moses was given the Torah/Tawrat; he was given the statute book. To say "Moses was given altoor" is to imply that Moses was given the mountain, which is illogical. He was given the statute book at altoor/the mountain.

Peace,

Ahmad

The Koran probably is talking about the Talmud restrictions. The Talmud existed in oral form long before Jesus and some of these traditions could have also existed among the Israelites before Moses. Anotherwords when they were in Egypt between Joseph and Moses which is about 100 to 200 years. These traditions piled up and became their culture and lifestyle and many of them ended in the Talmud.

There are many people who have been guided by the OT and NT and there are many who disbelieve in them. You guys are focusing on minor details. These previous scriptures are not easy to read which is why the Koran advised the prophet to ask the learned scholars of the OT and NT. Anyways I wanted to know did the Koran refer to the previous scriptures as the word of God or the Books. I know the Koran calls itself the word of God and I know the Koran refered to Jesus as the word of God. I guess what I am asking is was their a scripture that was revealed to Jesus like Muhammad? We know Jesus used to preach in his childhood, which is something that Muhammad never did.

Muslimtruthrevealed

Assalaam Alaikum

D You folks are making this stuff up as you go.....unbelievable

"he Koran advised the prophet to ask the learned scholars of the OT and NT" laugh

The Quran does NOT suggest, imply or state 'ask the learned scholars' or 'ask those from the previous scriptures'

"We know Jesus used to preach in his childhood" What?

Ahmad_Bilal

Peace Bigmo,

I wanted to know did the Koran refer to the previous scriptures as the word of God or the Books. I know the Koran calls itself the word of God and I know the Koran refered to Jesus as the word of God. I guess what I am asking is was their a scripture that was revealed to Jesus like Muhammad? We know Jesus used to preach in his childhood, which is something that Muhammad never did.

The Quran does classify the previous scriptures (i.e. Torah) as the word of GOD, a divine revelation that He sent down to the prophets. I've never seen anywhere in the Quran where Jesus is called the "word of GOD", but the scriptures do mention that Jesus received a scripture as well, called the Gospel (546). And this scripture is also regarded as divine, and this is emphasized in the following verse as well

The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked. (547)

This clearly sets the Gospel apart as an authentic revelation from GOD sent down to Jesus. Regarding childhood, the scriptures do mention Jesus preaching in infancy. In Jewish legends through the Torah, this is also described as a feature of Abraham, who is also mentioned in the previous scriptures as preaching in infancy. The Quran doesn't say anything regarding Mohammed preaching in infancy, so this is neither confirmed nor rejected. We don't know if that was one of his gifts from GOD or not. If it was important for us to know, though, it would've been revealed in the Quran.

Peace,

Ahmad

Muslimtruthrevealed

Peace Bigmo,

The Quran does classify the previous scriptures (i.e. Torah) as the word of GOD, a divine revelation that He sent down to the prophets. I've never seen anywhere in the Quran where Jesus is called the "word of GOD", but the scriptures do mention that Jesus received a scripture as well, called the Gospel (546). And this scripture is also regarded as divine, and this is emphasized in the following verse as well

The people of the Gospel shall rule in accordance with GOD's revelations therein. Those who do not rule in accordance with GOD's revelations are the wicked. (547)

This clearly sets the Gospel apart as an authentic revelation from GOD sent down to Jesus. Regarding childhood, the scriptures do mention Jesus preaching in infancy. In Jewish legends through the Torah, this is also described as a feature of Abraham, who is also mentioned in the previous scriptures as preaching in infancy. The Quran doesn't say anything regarding Mohammed preaching in infancy, so this is neither confirmed nor rejected. We don't know if that was one of his gifts from GOD or not. If it was important for us to know, though, it would've been revealed in the Quran.

Peace,

Ahmad

Again, You individuals cannot interpolate english interpretations into the Quranic language of Arabic.

The Quran does NOT classify any 'previous scriptures!

Essa,as is referred to as 'kalim'allah

When the angels said. ?O Maryam (Mary)!Allah gives you the Good news of a WORD FROM HIM. his name will be MASEEH ESSA(Christ Jesus),The son of Maryam (Mary),Held in honour in this world and, In the hereafter And of close associates.

Injeel and the Tawrat were revealed BEFORE Essa and Moses to ALL Humankind

It is He Who sent down to you (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what is between your two hands / musaddiqan li ma bayna yadayhi; and He sent down the Law and the Injeel

(revealed) FROM BEFORE, as a guidance to humankind / min qablu hudan lilnnasi, and it is He who has revealed / anzala the standard by which to discern the true from the false / Al-Furqan. Behold, as for those who are bent on denying God's signs / kafaroo bi ayati Allahi - grievous suffering awaits them for God is almighty, an avenger of evil.

Essa / Jesus speaking in infancy is a Biblical interpretation, injected into the english translation of the Quran

Torah and Bible have no relevance to the Quran, you have seen and read the thread.

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597369.45

http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9597369.60

Rami

Peace MTR,

Again, your arguing with yourself.....going round in circles with your own denial. Will you please address the evidence I presented, versus arguing in circles.

Twisting the Quran is not evidence. It is heresy. voodoo

I gave you the reference that defines the meaning and linguistic 'use' of the word 'taboot', and all you give me is your denial?

And (further) their Prophet said to them "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant, with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if ye indeed have faith."

Here the word 'taboot' is mentioned once in the Quran and it means a chest or an ark where you can put things in it not the human chest 'sadr'. elektro
http//www.blueletterbible.org/lang/lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=H8392

Are you prepared and equipped to engage in this discussion?

I am not prepared and equipped to discuss bullshit. I am allergic to it. You are making a mockery out of the Quran. The Quran is NOT a crooked book. If you like esoteric meanings, go study the Kabbalah or Sufism. You will love it. ;D

Now where is this fire that Ibraheem was thrown in? Is it a metaphor? satire? parable? or do you actually believe he was thrown into a fire?

I believe it is a literal story. Ofcourse you think it is somekind of metaphor of the flaming discussion between Abraham and his people and God cooled it down by giving him some good arguments. Or something worse. rotfl Wait a minute, I am good at this. rotfl

You folks are making this stuff up as you go.....unbelievable

At least its logical and has grounds in the scriptures. Your interpretations is a bit far-fetched and can't stand simple linguistic verification.

The Quran does NOT suggest, imply or state 'ask the learned scholars' or 'ask those from the previous scriptures'

Then who is Ahl-Alzikr?? Isn't the Book of Moses zikr too. Isn't Ahl-alZikr Ahl-alKitab? Do you know 'the knowledgeable of Bani-Israel'? Why are they called that by God?

"We know Jesus used to preach in his childhood" What?

Show me some of your interpretation skills to get out of this one rotfl

You are trying to say that the Quran is the only written revelation. The Bible is a hoax. Together with all the Judeochristian traditions. Then how is it that the stories found the previous traditions are found in the Quran??? Even if they are metaphorical, they are still strikingly similar!! Don't go 'ohh, you are in denial of the truth'. Read and stop this lunacy.

Peace?,

Rami