The Quran and The Legends of the Jews
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Peace MTR,
Essa,as is referred to as 'kalim'allah
When the angels said. ?O Maryam (Mary)!Allah gives you the Good news of a WORD FROM HIM. his name will be MASEEH ESSA(Christ Jesus),The son of Maryam (Mary),Held in honour in this world and, In the hereafter And of close associates.
Again, this is your own interpretation. When Jesus is mentioned, he is described as being FROM a word of GOD. For example
O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master. (4171)
Here, Jesus is called a word sent to Mary, and we know this "word" to be the word "BE", the method in which Jesus was formed. This is demonstrated in 347
She said, "My Lord, how can I have a son when no man has touched me?" He said, "GOD thus creates whatever He wills. To have anything done, He simply says to it, `Be,' and it is. (347)
So, it's clear from the scriptures that Jesus was formed from a word of GOD. If you interpret this as saying that he WAS an actual word of GOD, that's your interpretation, and I won't contest it, but in the same verse (4171), Jesus is also called a "revelation" from GOD. In this sense, Jesus was a "revelation" because his coming was based on prophecies from GOD's word that foretold the coming of the Messiah, and also he was a revelation to Mary because he was mentioned before his birth. This, however, doesn't make Jesus divine, and he was still a messenger of GOD just like all the others
The Messiah, son of Mary, is no more than a messenger like the messengers before him, and his mother was a saint. Both of them used to eat the food. Note how we explain the revelations for them, and note how they still deviate! (575)
Peace,
Ahmad
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Rami
It appears that you lack a mature and balanced level of emotional intelligence. Using profanity in a intellectual discussion indicates that you lack the vocabulary to engage in the discussion. You are obviously ill equipped to address the evidence.
One point, that was quite strange, we are discussing the word, arabic quranic word 'taboot' and you give me a blueletter bible strongs reference in hebrew!
Here take a peep at the Lanes Arabic Lexicon reference that you ignored in a earlier post. Notice the Hebrew word briyth in Deu 3126 , is used in the reference as the linguistic equivalent for at-tabootu ;
Lanes Lexicon Part 1 page 321, middle column, click on the image, then zoom
http//img89.imageshack.us/img89/6048/wwwstudyquranorglanelexmx0.th.jpghttp//img89.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif
"in Hebr. ] it signifies also the ribs,with what they contain, as the heart and the liver; as being likened to a chest, or box;"
Now you have your homework assignment until our next discussion
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Peace MTR,
The main meaning of 'taboot' is box or coffin and that what contained the relics of Moses and Aaron. Taboot being the chest cavity is a very secondary meaning but in the Quran the chest cavity is always used as 'sadr'. Talking about different meanings , many arabic words have many different meanings. I determine the correct meaning by a combination of the primary meaning and its context and use in the Quran. The word 'taboot' is simply a box carried by the angels containing artifacts from Moses and Aaron. If we use chest cavity as the true meaning, you simply get a very bizarre statement that defy common sense.
Peace,
Rami
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@Rami....
'You determine'?
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Rami Does at-tabootu have a Definite Article ?
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Rami use your 24 font skills and show Definite Article in at-tabootu (If it exists)
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Rami What is the meaning of Definite Article ?
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Rami How does the Definite Article influence a word?
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Rami Give us the 'determinative' meaning that YOU derive from the Definite Article (If it exists) with the word at-tabootu
I await your response to the above questions.
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@Rami....
'You determine'?
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Rami Does at-tabootu have a Definite Article ?
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Rami use your 24 font skills and show Definite Article in at-tabootu (If it exists)
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Rami What is the meaning of Definite Article ?
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Rami How does the Definite Article influence a word?
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Rami Give us the 'determinative' meaning that YOU derive from the Definite Article (If it exists) with the word at-tabootu
I await your response to the above questions.
Peace MTR,
Is this an exam? ;D
Ok lets play!
1)Yes
2)
3) A restricting article
4) Like restricts the noun. ;D
5) The Box that God sent with the angels cotaining the relics of Moses and Aaron thought it doesn't say 'taboot el ensan'- human chest or 'taboot al 3ahd'-ark of the covenant. So again you choose the most rational meaning that fits the context of the verse.Peace,
Rami
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Assalaam Alaikum
Now that the 'entertainment' is over lets continue with the formation of the 'Torah' (NOT to be confused with the Tawrat from Quran) focusing on the 'Ark of the Covenant', what the Quran refers to as At-Tabootu
We have established.....
Exodus 1249?..One law / towrah shall be to him that is native / 'ezrach (to Israel), and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
The Torah is ONLY relevant to those Jews in Israel. 'ezrach means to 'come from the soil, to be born in that land'
We have established.....
That the Torah which Moses 'wrote' and 'delivered' (between 1200 -1500 BCE) was 'destroyed' in 917 BCE during the reign of Rehoboam....
Deu 319 And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bearers/protectors/responsible the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel.
Then years later......
1Ki 1425 And it came to pass in the fifth year (917) of king Rehoboam, Shishak king of Egypt came up against Jerusalem
1Ki 1426 And he took away the treasures of the house of the LORD, and the treasures of the king's house; HE EVEN TOOK AWAY ALL and he took away all the shields of gold which Solomon had made.
The 'Torah' , the words 'written' and delivered to the people of Israel, priests and elders does NOT exist!
Now focusing on what Allah now has revealed to Moses NOT what Moses has written and distributed....
We have established that there is a CONTRADICTION between Moses 'prophecy' for the Israel and Allah's 'prophecy' for Israel....
Moses stated " he will destroy these nations from before thee, and thou shalt possess them"
Allah stated " Then my anger shall be kindled against them in that day, and I will forsake them , and I will hide my face from them , and THEY SHALL BE DEVOURED, and many evils and troubles shall befall them "
In the following, Allah and Moses are now making the distinction between the 'written' 'Torah' and Allah's 'Tawrat'
The writer uses the Hebrew word is ?shiyr?, pronounced like ?sheer? means to proclaim something to someone, speak or celebrate someone/something as if it were a song/melodic.
Its Hebrew root is /shuwr pronounced like the word ?sure-(a), related to the Arabic Root Sura
No Hebrew or Semetic words relating to ?shiyr? or 'shuwr' (Arabic 'Sura' was used to describe what Moses 'wrote' in Deuteronomy 319.
?shiyr? or 'shuwr' (Arabic 'Sura' is referenced ONLY after Allah has instructed Moses and the People of Israel to teach and recite the 'sura's
Deu 3119 Now therefore write ye this song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) for you, and teach it the children of Israel put it in their mouths, that this song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) may be a witness for me against the children of Israel.
Biblical Confirmation
Psalms 428 the LORD will command his loving kindness in the daytime, and in the night his song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) with me, my prayer unto the God of my life.
Believers RECITE from the song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) when performing salat / prayer
Thus Deuteronomy 31 is clearly showing a distinction between what is 'written' and what is 'revealed' the Hebrew Term
song/sura (Hebrew shiyr/ /shuwr Arabic Root Sura) is ONLY used in context with Al-Kitab, Quran, Furqan, Injeel and Tawrat NOT in reference to ANY context relating to a 'written' document termed 'Torah', that has since been destroyed.
I will address the following...to shed some light upon the 'Ark of the Covenant' from the Quran
Deu 3126 Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
And (further) their Prophet said to them. "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant (Biblical influence), with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried by angels. In this is a symbol for you if you indeed have faith."
To Be Continued....
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Hi threre,
Deu 3126 Take this book of the law 'Tawrat?' , and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.
1Ki 1426 And he took away the treasures of the house of the LORD(and the Tawrat?!), and the treasures of the king's house; HE EVEN TOOK AWAY ALL and he took away all the shields of gold which Solomon had made.This means the Old Testament is not the Tawrat. We can conclude that the Tawrat was with the Ark which was stolen from the Jews. So where can we search for it? Where is the treasures of Shishak? I am smelling a new Indiana Jones movie coming up. The Quran confirms what was in the Ark. Jews call it the 'Testimony'.
Peace.
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Assalaam Alaikum
The so-called 'Ark of the Covenant' is NOT a chest or box, carried around and hidden in some undisclosed place. The 'Covenant' is another attribute of Al-Kitab called At-Tabootu which Allah has 'placed' as guidance in the hearts of the Believers.
The question that will be answered by the following ayah is 'Who is 'placing' the 'Covenant' in the heart or 'chest' of the Believer?'
And (further) their Prophet said to them. "A Sign of Allah's authority / qala lahum nabiyyuhum inna ayata mulkihi / is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant / yatiyakumu at-tabootu / , with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left / baqiyyatun / by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried / tahmiluhu by angels. In this is a symbol for you if you indeed have faith."
inna ayata mulkihi 'A Sign of Allah's authority' This statement is referring to Allah in present tense and as the 'ultimate' authority.
Say. "O Allah! Lord of Power (And Rule), You givest power to whom You pleasest / Quli allahumma malika Al-Mulki tutee Al-Mulka man tashao /
there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant / yatiyakumu at-tabootu /
yatiyakumu (imperfect = present (without sawf(a) or sa = future tense), active verb, stative, fa"il(a), transitive & intransitive, Subjunctive ) means something is coming to you that you will obey and be intimately associated with; in you, part of you
The attributes associated with the verb yatiyakumu that distinguish the verb are
yatiyakumu is an active verb, the action is directed outward FROM the subject, At-Tabootu which means that the subject At-Tabootu performs the action but does NOT receive it.
Thus no one is 'placing' anything in a chest or box, the attribute of At-Tabootu and 'action' is coming FROM At-Tabootu .
In addition yatiyakumu is a PRESENT TENSE ACTIVE VERB, its happening NOW, as long as the Quran has been in existence, so has the action of the word yatiyakumu , it has NOT stopped
I will conclude with the meaning and relevance of the attribute of Al-Kitab, At-Tabootu
To Be Continued.......
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Assalaam Alaikum
Continuing with defining and determining the relevance of At-Tabootu in Al-Baqarah 2.248
And (further) their Prophet said to them. "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant / yatiyakumu at-tabootu / , with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left / baqiyyatun / by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried / tahmiluhu by angels. In this is a symbol for you if you indeed have faith."
We have established and confirmed
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We determined from Al-Baqarah 2.248, that it is Allah who is governing and has authority to 'place' attributes and guidance in At-Tabootu
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That the verb, yatiyakumu is an active verb, the action is directed outward FROM the subject, At-Tabootu which means that the subject At-Tabootu performs the action but does NOT receive it.
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That the verb, yatiyakumu is a PRESENT TENSE ACTIVE VERB, its happening NOW!
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Thus no one is 'placing' anything in a chest or box, the attribute of At-Tabootu and the 'action' is coming FROM At-Tabootu .
Defining the attribute of Al-Kitab At-Tabootu
Again, The so-called 'Ark of the Covenant' is NOT a chest or box, carried around and hidden in some undisclosed place.
At-Tabootu means what is contained in the chest, heart, liver various organs; the Hebrew briyth, is used in the reference as the linguistic equivalent;
See Lanes Lexicon Part 1 page 321, middle column
http//img89.imageshack.us/img89/6048/wwwstudyquranorglanelexmx0.th.jpghttp//img89.imageshack.us/images/thpix.gif[/URL
At-Tabootu has a Definite Article (adataatarif) , used to give the meaning of ?Most, All, Complete, Maximum, Whole, and to denote comprehensiveness, all aspects or categories of a subject, or to denote perfection and includes all degrees and grades.
At-Tabootu is a definite noun, a noun as defined by Allah to represent an attribute of guidance, perfect and complete.
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Assalaam Alaikum
Continuing with defining and determining the relevance of At-Tabootu in Al-Baqarah 2.248
And (further) their Prophet said to them. "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant / yatiyakumu at-tabootu / , with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left / baqiyyatun / by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried / tahmiluhu by angels. In this is a symbol for you if you indeed have faith."
Lets define the attribute relics left / baqiyyatun /
baqiyyatun / has NOTHING to do with a 'chest' left behind in some temple or buried somewhere.
baqiyyatun / Wisdom, Legacy, model of excellence, sound judgement, piety, lawful behavior; mentioned in Sura Al-Hud 11.86 & 11.116
?If you are believers then the model of behavior, wisdom and excellence of Allah / Baqiyyatu Allahi is better for you and I am not a preserver over you?.
Lets define the attribute carried / tahmiluhu
And (further) their Prophet said to them. "A Sign of his authority is that there shall come to you the Ark of the covenant / yatiyakumu at-tabootu / , with (an assurance) therein of security from your Lord, and the relics left / baqiyyatun / by the family of Moses and the family of Aaron, carried / tahmiluhu by angels. In this is a symbol for you if you indeed have faith."
tahmiluhu (Infinitive Noun) imposed and constrained to carry or bear a message
Inifintive Noun a verb form found that functions as a noun or is used with auxiliary verbs, and that names the action or state without specifying the subject. A form of the verb which merely names the action, and performs the responsibility of a verbal noun. The infinitive is often a complement used to help define or compliment another noun, in this case At-Tabootu /
The angels are carrying and taking responsibility for inspiring the message from At-Tabootu / to the Believer / Mumin, they are performing the action and attribute associated with the meaning of the verb yatiyakumu , something is coming to you that you will obey and be intimately associated with.
Yatiyakumu , is what is referred to as a Stative Verb which indicates a changing from the state of unknowing into the state of knowing.
Yatiyakumu is also Subjunctive which means the doer of the verb, in this case the Angels are making suggesstions and inspiring you with a message that brings you into a state of knowing.
Again, there is no chest or box, with stone tablets, scrolls of papers, buried underneath some temple or in a cave.
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Peace MTR,
I request that you make a new thread with your hypothesis so all of the free-mind members might be able discuss it. I have nothing to say on the subject. The verse is clear. And the Quran still contain the legends of the Jews and your hypothesis doesn't affect the topic of the thread whatsoever.
Peace,
Rami
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No, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, FALSEHOOD DOES PERISH! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things you ascribe (to Us).
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No, We hurl the Truth against falsehood, and it knocks out its brain, and behold, FALSEHOOD DOES PERISH! Ah! woe be to you for the (false) things you ascribe (to Us).
What does this verse has to do with our discussion? You are talking nonsense. I want you to make a new thread and see how others will react. This won't be pretty. I have read your posts. Your bizarre conclusions are not exclusive to this thread I guess.
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What it means is that your perceptions have no basis in reality and as such when the truth is conveyed, your false perceptions, interpretations a negative characterizations are destroyed.
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What does this verse has to do with our discussion? You are talking nonsense. I want you to make a new thread and see how others will react. This won't be pretty. I have read your posts. Your bizarre conclusions are not exclusive to this thread I guess.
Its not bizarre its just taking the verses as implying a more hidden meaning than the outer meaning. There are verses like that, the problem is when you interpret all the Koran that way and refuse to accept any other interpretation.