Verses on Homosexuality
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Sorry Far, you hadn't posted in a bit so we thought you'd abandoned us peace
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When the proper analysis is that since drug abuse harms a lot of people, society benefits from government policy working to minimize drug abuse.
Actually, it doesn't. Government's got no right to tell people what they can and can't do with their bodies and making drugs illegal does very little to stop people from taking drugs. To reduce all the problems associated with drug trafficking, government should simply legalize drugs. Gangs, pushers, and that thrill people get from doing illegal drugs will vanish almost completely if pushers and users don't have to go through so much trouble to get drugs.
Likewise, misuse of human sexuality harms a lot of people,
How is it misuse? You keep asserting that homosexuality is bad but you don't show how.
breaks up a lot of families
That only happens because narrow-minded homophobic people have a problem with homosexuals. Homosexuals can't be blamed for that. To blame homosexuals for homophobia is no different from saying that Blacks were responsible for the racism against them simply because they were Black.
and is a bit cause of poverty.
Because bigoted people don't like to hire homosexuals.
The focus of sex education is all wrong, particularly where I am in the UK, it's all about 'feeling comfortable' about what you are doing, entirely ignoring the context of marriage. This link is typical of sex education in the UK. It encourages teenagers to be a little bit critical of peer pressure to have sex, and has a kind of feel good quality to it. But there is no serious attempt to convey what responsibility actually is, an no mention of the value and importance of marriage.
http//www.bebooksonline.co.uk/girls_and_boys/default.htm
And your point is?
I think there is a strong relationship between this obtuse failure of sex education and the activities of gay lobby groups arguing that anything that feels good is sex and on a par with marriage. It's garbage. Just because some patches of skin are sensitive doesn't mean that sticking dildos into every orifice is going to make a happy family and a stable environment for raising children. Such fallacious arguments need to be rooted out so society can progress.
I'm not arguing that sticking a dildo into every orifice will make a happy family and is on a par with marriage. Please stop making straw man arguments and please stop claiming that homosexuality is wrong without showing me why.
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You've misread my post. When I said misuse of sexuality, I was talking more widely then homosexuality. In particular, adultery breaks up marriages, and thus causes child poverty because one parent doesn't have the earning power of two parents.
Obviously, homosexuality doesn't cause poverty. This problem of employers not hiring homosexuals is completely off the mark - gays on average are better paid and better educated than heterosexuals. And certainly in the UK, politically they are hugely disproportionately over represented - go to any meeting of a mainstream UK political party and you'll find 40-50% of members are gay or bi-sexual. Gays are not a disadvantaged minority.
But as I've said, the reason it is discouraged in religion is that it does not tend towards the creation of healthy families. Because morality is about responsibility, and we have a responsibility to give the next generation the best possible start in life, which requires them to be born.
This is why drugs which encourage people to be irresponsible are also bad, especially if they are legal. Because you can't be a responsible person if you're stoned.
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liquiddharma,
You've misread my post. When I said misuse of sexuality, I was talking more widely then homosexuality. In particular, adultery breaks up marriages, and thus causes child poverty because one parent doesn't have the earning power of two parents.
Alright, but you've not shown how homosexuality is a "misuse of sexuality". Also, why would you bring up other "misuses of sexuality" into a discussion on homosexuality except to tacitly equate the two?
Obviously, homosexuality doesn't cause poverty. This problem of employers not hiring homosexuals is completely off the mark - gays on average are better paid and better educated than heterosexuals. And certainly in the UK, politically they are hugely disproportionately over represented - go to any meeting of a mainstream UK political party and you'll find 40-50% of members are gay or bi-sexual. Gays are not a disadvantaged minority.
That isn't true for every country. Openly gay people aren't even allowed to live in peace and security, much less get jobs in "Muslim countries".
But as I've said, the reason it is discouraged in religion is that it does not tend towards the creation of healthy families.
Are you saying that a healthy family can only be one in which the kids are the biological kids of the parents? Perhaps every country should outlaw adoption completely.
Because morality is about responsibility, and we have a responsibility to give the next generation the best possible start in life, which requires them to be born.
What is your evidence that the god has a problem with people not procreating? Do you absolutely have to bring kids into this world to be a good parent or can you also adopt a kid and give it love, care and a good education, etc. to be a good parent?
This is why drugs which encourage people to be irresponsible are also bad, especially if they are legal.
I never argued they're not bad. Oh and how does being homosexual make you irresponsible?
Because you can't be a responsible person if you're stoned.
But I think your sexuality has no bearing on how responsible you are.
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Face it people. You have no good reason to believe that homosexuality is wrong, and since you don't have a single good reason to believe it's wrong, don't you think you should absolutely never claim that the god says it's wrong? Is the god an unreasonable despot who prohibits certain things without any reason?
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Supernaut
Unfortunately, you seem to be living in cloud cuckoo land. Homosexuality, maybe okay in your eyes and in your perverse translation of the Qur'an in order to find your comfort level, but to the vast majority of the world it is not okay and neither is it normal or natural. As far as Islam is concerned, homosexuality is a no no and will always be.
You have been shown time and time again that the Qur'an forbids any sexual relationship other than in a marriage between a man and a woman. But you still insist that many homosexual men and women claim that they are born with their sexual preferences and that they have no choice. Although this point is very much in dispute in the medical world, it has no support in the Qur'an. Even then, irrespective of the nature of homosexuality, this matter would not affect the laws spelled out clearly in the Qur'an .
We know that this life is a test. Everyone of us has his/her own test. For example someone may be born blind, but that person is expected to live his/her life according to God's law. Others are born poor, short, tall, weak, missing fingers, having big nose...etc but all of them are expected to follow God's law. Some men or women may never marry in their life, or spend part of their life without a spouse. As per the Qur'an they still have to live a chaste life and avoid any sexual contacts outside a marriage. They have to suppress their sexual feelings to follow God's law. It is a major test and not an easy one for many. Only those who submit to God will do everything they can to follow His law. They know that their salvation and eternal happiness rests in doing so.
Since God condemns homosexuality, then we have to believe that a man or a woman with homosexual feelings is expected to behave like any other human being and follows God's laws if he/she truely believes in them. He/she shall resist his/her feelings , maintains abstinence , use all available resources of help including medical, social and behavioral therapies to overcome their behavior and feelings. They should pray to God to help them getting over it and submit to God's law that sees homosexuality as gross sin. Only those who steadfastly persevere in obeying God's law will they pass their test and confirm their submission to God.
There's and old saying ' God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve'.
Read and digest the following ayats in order to determine your natual choice of partner in light of the Qur'an and Islam
41 (Asad) O MANKIND! Be conscious of your Sustainer, who has created you out of one living entity, and out of it created its mate, and out of the two spread abroad a multitude of men and women. And remain conscious of God, in whose name you demand from one another, and of these ties of kinship. Verily, God is ever watchful over you!
7189 (Asad) IT IS HE who has created you out of one living entity, and out of it brought into being its mate, so that man might incline towards woman. And so, when he has embraced her, she conceives a light burden, and continues to bear it. Then, when she grows heavy , they both call unto God, their Sustainer, "If Thou indeed grant us a sound , we shall most certainly be among the grateful!"
396 (Asad) He has created you out of one living entity, and out of it fashioned its mate; and he has be?stowed upon you four kinds of cattle of either sex; He creates you in your mothers? wombs, one act of creation after another, in threefold depths of darkness. Thus is God, your Sustainer unto Him belongs all dominion there is no deity save Him how, then, can you lose sight of the truth?
4913 (Asad) O men! Behold, We have created you all out of a male and a female, and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.
788 (Asad) And We have created you in pairs;
424 (Asad) And all married women other than those whom you rightfully possess this is God's ordinance, binding upon you. But lawful to you are all beyond these, for you to seek out, offering them of your possessions, taking them in honest wedlock, and not in fornication. And unto those with whom you desire to enjoy marriage, you shall give the dowers due to them; but you will incur no sin if, after this lawful due, you freely agree with one another upon anything behold, God is indeed all-knowing, wise.
55 (Asad) Today, all the good things of life have been made lawful to you. And the food of those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime is lawful to you, and your food is lawful to them. And , in wedlock, women from among those who believe , and, in wedlock, women from among those who have been vouchsafed revelation before your time -provided that you give them their dowers, taking them in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. But as for him who rejects belief - in vain will be all his works for in the life to come he shall be among the lost.
780-81 We also (sent) Lut he said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
26165-166 "Of all the creatures in the world will ye approach males". "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
You can call yourself a homosexual, gaylord, faggot, bender, shirtlifter, battyman, queer, homo, fairy, camp, sissy, pansy or anything else for that matter. But the reality is same sex relationships are wrong and anti islamic as it goes against the whole grain of Islam.
Peace
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but to the vast majority of the world it is not okay and neither is it normal or natural. As far as Islam is concerned, homosexuality is a no no and will always be.
Argumentum ad numerum (appeal to numbers) logical fallacy. Lots of people once thought that the earth was flat, but the earth was never flat.
You have been shown time and time again that the Qur'an forbids any sexual relationship other than in a marriage between a man and a woman.
Really? Who showed me that the great reading forbids same sex marriage?
But you still insist that many homosexual men and women claim that they are born with their sexual preferences and that they have no choice.
I don't recall claiming that gay men and women claim that they're born gay, but I do remember saying that the latest research clearly indicates that homosexuals are indeed born homosexual.
Although this point is very much in dispute in the medical world, it has no support in the Qur'an. Even then, irrespective of the nature of homosexuality, this matter would not affect the laws spelled out clearly in the Qur'an .
Are you claiming that the great reading is incompatible with research that provides ample evidence that homosexuals are born homosexual? Is the god unaware of what It creates?
We know that this life is a test. Everyone of us has his/her own test. For example someone may be born blind, but that person is expected to live his/her life according to God's law. Others are born poor, short, tall, weak, missing fingers, having big nose...etc but all of them are expected to follow God's law. Some men or women may never marry in their life, or spend part of their life without a spouse. As per the Qur'an they still have to live a chaste life and avoid any sexual contacts outside a marriage. They have to suppress their sexual feelings to follow God's law. It is a major test and not an easy one for many. Only those who submit to God will do everything they can to follow His law. They know that their salvation and eternal happiness rests in doing so.
I know life is a test and I know pre-marital sex is wrong, but none of that nonsense you plagiarized from submission.org shows why the god would have a problem with homosexuality. The author simply claims that homosexuality is a test, but they don't show why it's wrong. Murder is obviously wrong because it's violating someone's right to live, but homosexuality doesn't bother anyone except foolish narrow-minded people who choose to be bothered by it.
Since God condemns homosexuality, then we have to believe that a man or a woman with homosexual feelings is expected to behave like any other human being and follows God's laws if he/she truely believes in them.
What a dumb argument. What if your god told you that eating apples is wrong, would you agree that eating apples is wrong? Again, why would the god have a problem with homosexuality?
He/she shall resist his/her feelings , maintains abstinence , use all available resources of help including medical, social and behavioral therapies to overcome their behavior and feelings.
Resist feelings that don't do anyone any harm? Seek "therapy" for something completely normal?
They should pray to God to help them getting over it and submit to God's law that sees homosexuality as gross sin. Only those who steadfastly persevere in obeying God's law will they pass their test and confirm their submission to God.
Again, no mention of why the god would have a problem with homosexualty.
There's and old saying ' God made Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve'.
But the god never said "Adam and Steve mustn't marry each other".
41 (Asad) O MANKIND! Be conscious of your Sustainer, who has created you out of one living entity, and out of it created its mate, and out of the two spread abroad a multitude of men and women. And remain conscious of God, in whose name you demand from one another, and of these ties of kinship. Verily, God is ever watchful over you!
7189 (Asad) IT IS HE who has created you out of one living entity, and out of it brought into being its mate, so that man might incline towards woman. And so, when he has embraced her, she conceives a light burden, and continues to bear it. Then, when she grows heavy , they both call unto God, their Sustainer, "If Thou indeed grant us a sound , we shall most certainly be among the grateful!"
396 (Asad) He has created you out of one living entity, and out of it fashioned its mate; and he has be?stowed upon you four kinds of cattle of either sex; He creates you in your mothers? wombs, one act of creation after another, in threefold depths of darkness. Thus is God, your Sustainer unto Him belongs all dominion there is no deity save Him how, then, can you lose sight of the truth?
4913 (Asad) O men! Behold, We have created you all out of a male and a female, and have made you into nations and tribes, so that you might come to know one another. Verily, the noblest of you in the sight of God is the one who is most deeply conscious of Him. Behold, God is all-knowing, all-aware.
788 (Asad) And We have created you in pairs;
424 (Asad) And all married women other than those whom you rightfully possess this is God's ordinance, binding upon you. But lawful to you are all beyond these, for you to seek out, offering them of your possessions, taking them in honest wedlock, and not in fornication. And unto those with whom you desire to enjoy marriage, you shall give the dowers due to them; but you will incur no sin if, after this lawful due, you freely agree with one another upon anything behold, God is indeed all-knowing, wise.
55 (Asad) Today, all the good things of life have been made lawful to you. And the food of those who have been vouchsafed revelation aforetime is lawful to you, and your food is lawful to them. And , in wedlock, women from among those who believe , and, in wedlock, women from among those who have been vouchsafed revelation before your time -provided that you give them their dowers, taking them in honest wedlock, not in fornication, nor as secret love-companions. But as for him who rejects belief - in vain will be all his works for in the life to come he shall be among the lost.
Which of the above verses outlaw homosexuality? 699 says that the god sends down rain to grow grapes, olives and pomegranates, but that certainly doesn't mean you can't grow apples, oranges and bananas.
780-81 We also (sent) Lut he said to his people "Do ye commit lewdness such as no people in creation (ever) committed before you? "For ye practice your lusts on men in preference to women ye are indeed a people transgressing beyond bounds."
26165-166 "Of all the creatures in the world will ye approach males". "And leave those whom Allah has created for you to be your mates? Nay ye are a people transgressing (all limits)!"
Go through the old thread on homosexuality that I linked Diem to in the first page of this thread.
You can call yourself a homosexual, gaylord, faggot, bender, shirtlifter, battyman, queer, homo, fairy, camp, sissy, pansy or anything else for that matter. But the reality is same sex relationships are wrong and anti islamic as it goes against the whole grain of Islam.
Sigh
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liquiddharma,
Alright, but you've not shown how homosexuality is a "misuse of sexuality". Also, why would you bring up other "misuses of sexuality" into a discussion on homosexuality except to tacitly equate the two?
Because the culture of saying 'do what feels good' links homosexuality, promiscuity and drug abuse, and selfish materialism in general in making our society more vicious and painful than it need be. And you brought up the drug dealers.
That isn't true for every country. Openly gay people aren't even allowed to live in peace and security, much less get jobs in "Muslim countries".
Indeed. And not just gays. Also anyone who supports a political party which the president-dictator doesn't like risks being beaten up and murdered. I think it's a human rights issue, not just a gay rights issue.
Are you saying that a healthy family can only be one in which the kids are the biological kids of the parents? Perhaps every country should outlaw adoption completely.
I'm saying children are better off being raised by their natural parents. Most children being raised by gay couples are not adopted - they are children from casual sexual relationships or from previous marriages before the parent in question decided they were gay. Gay adoption is a complete side issue in my view. What is seriously harmful, in my view, is the culture of saying having as much fun as you can from sexual relationships is more important than your duties to your spouse, your family, and to society. It's not okay to bring children into this world and put them second to your personal gratification. To marry and have children, and a few years later say "Wahay, I really enjoy f**king members of my own gender" - so you leave your partner in order to pursue this - is not just a sin. It's a grave sin.
What is your evidence that the god has a problem with people not procreating?
Oh and how does being homosexual make you irresponsible?
It's called evolution, dear. If you're a healthy, intelligent, good natured person, failing to reproduce and raise your child in the best possible environment will contribute to the next generation being sicker, stupider and crueler.
It's like the saying goes - All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Gays are perfectly capable of being good people - and so by failing to reproduce, they are cursing the next generation to genetic oblivion, economic collapse, and the political tyranny that comes with apathy.
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idiocracy
http//www.overworkedandunderpaid.org/jiminchina/wp-content/uploads/2008/08/idiocracy-2.jpg
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Supernaut
Look mate. If you're a homosexual, stay one. None of my concern or business. Just don't try to justify it's compatibility with Islam. God gave you a brain, reason and logic. At least try to use your faculties. You are a minority and always will be. Even in a democracy, you don't count because the majority vote wins.
2171 (Asad) And so, the parable of those who re bent on denying the truth is that of the beast which hears the shepherd's cry, and hears in it nothing but the sound of a voice and a call. Deaf are they, and dumb, and blind for they do not use their reason.
Peace
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Because the culture of saying 'do what feels good' links homosexuality, promiscuity and drug abuse, and selfish materialism in general in making our society more vicious and painful than it need be. And you brought up the drug dealers.
The "do what feels good" kind of thinking is linked to heterosexuality just as much as it is to homosexuality and it's no grounds for condemning homosexuality because homosexuality isn't a result of that kind of thinking.
I'm saying children are better off being raised by their natural parents.
Not necessarily.
Most children being raised by gay couples are not adopted - they are children from casual sexual relationships or from previous marriages before the parent in question decided they were gay.
"Decided they were gay"? I think they realized they were gay. Gay people wouldn't marry people of the opposite sex if society didn't pressure them so much to do so. And give me some evidence that the kids of gay people are mostly kids from previous heterosexual relationships. I'd like statistics and even if you're right, that doesn't make homosexuality intrinsically wrong in any way because marrying people of the opposite sex and having kids with them isn't what all homosexuals do; it's not the kind of thing homosexuals are bound to do.
Gay adoption is a complete side issue in my view. What is seriously harmful, in my view, is the culture of saying having as much fun as you can from sexual relationships is more important than your duties to your spouse, your family, and to society.
I agree with you.
It's not okay to bring children into this world and put them second to your personal gratification. To marry and have children, and a few years later say "Wahay, I really enjoy f**king members of my own gender" - so you leave your partner in order to pursue this - is not just a sin. It's a grave sin.
That kind of stuff will always happen in a hypocritical society where homosexuality isn't tolerated.
It's called evolution, dear. If you're a healthy, intelligent, good natured person, failing to reproduce and raise your child in the best possible environment will contribute to the next generation being sicker, stupider and crueler.
What a simplistic, reductionistic and ludicrous argument! "Failing to reproduce" will not make the next generation "sicker, stupider and crueler". A bad education, a bad upbringing and poverty will do way, way more to make the next generation "sicker, stupider and crueler" than 3-10% of the population choosing not to have kids who are biologically theirs. Don't give me an image from the movie Idiocracy to prove that some people deciding not to have kids will make the next generation stupid; give me something far more credible and far less "idiocratic" to prove your absurd point. You have no moral obligation to have kids and raise them the best possible way if you have good genes and a good personality because having kids and raising them is a huge responsibility and burden that you can decide you don't want. Not having kids doesn't do any harm, in fact, you can argue (not that I ever would) that it's a bad and selfish thing to have kids because you could be helping people who already exist rather than plan to bring more helpless people into this world. Also, what if you're not a good-natured and healthy person? Should you refrain from having kids even if you really want them? People who don't have kids can devote a lot more time to charity work and they can even adopt some of the millions of orphans out there and give them a good home.
It's like the saying goes - All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing. Gays are perfectly capable of being good people - and so by failing to reproduce, they are cursing the next generation to genetic oblivion, economic collapse, and the political tyranny that comes with apathy.
I'm not having this discussion anymore till someone posts something a trillion times smarter than that (shouldn't be too hard).
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The "do what feels good" kind of thinking is linked to heterosexuality just as much as it is to homosexuality and it's no grounds for condemning homosexuality because homosexuality isn't a result of that kind of thinking.
I disagree. See below.
"Decided they were gay"? I think they realized they were gay. Gay people wouldn't marry people of the opposite sex if society didn't pressure them so much to do so. And give me some evidence that the kids of gay people are mostly kids from previous heterosexual relationships. I'd like statistics and even if you're right, that doesn't make homosexuality intrinsically wrong in any way because marrying people of the opposite sex and having kids with them isn't what all homosexuals do; it's not the kind of thing homosexuals are bound to do.
Disagree. If you can function normally in a hetrosexual relationship for years, but also find gay sex exciting, it means you are bi-sexual. You haven't 'realised you're gay' - you've just realised you can do it both ways. It doesn't matter whether society is homo-skeptical or homo-erotic, people's sexual desires always change over time. It doesn't mean you should abandon your responsibility every time you are excited about something new.
That kind of stuff will always happen in a hypocritical society where homosexuality isn't tolerated.
Toleration means different things. I believe in personal privacy. I don't believe in the government telling us what to think, or telling us that gay relationships are same as marriage. That's not tolerance, that's state sponsored ignorance.
What a simplistic, reductionistic and ludicrous argument! "Failing to reproduce" will not make the next generation "sicker, stupider and crueler". A bad education, a bad upbringing and poverty will do way, way more to make the next generation "sicker, stupider and crueler" than 3-10% of the population choosing not to have kids who are biologically theirs. Don't give me an image from the movie Idiocracy to prove that some people deciding not to have kids will make the next generation stupid; give me something far more credible and far less "idiocratic" to prove your absurd point. You have no moral obligation to have kids and raise them the best possible way if you have good genes and a good personality because having kids and raising them is a huge responsibility and burden that you can decide you don't want. Not having kids doesn't do any harm, in fact, you can argue (not that I ever would) that it's a bad and selfish thing to have kids because you could be helping people who already exist rather than plan to bring more helpless people into this world. Also, what if you're not a good-natured and healthy person? Should you refrain from having kids even if you really want them? People who don't have kids can devote a lot more time to charity work and they can even adopt some of the millions of orphans out there and give them a good home.
You demanded simplicity, so I gave it to you. "What is your evidence that the god has a problem with people not procreating" is a pretty simplistic and naive question. We're a species that has evolved over millions of years - you think this is has nothing to do with morality? Do you think God created us through blind chance?
Do you think that it God created DNA just for fun, the most complex and miraculous particle in the known universe?
Remember that Islam means surrender. I think God controls the process of evolution. But God helps those who help themselves. All we have to do is put it in his hands, which means submitting our will to the will of God in marriage.
You have no moral obligation to have kids and raise them the best possible way if you have good genes and a good personality because having kids and raising them is a huge responsibility and burden that you can decide you don't want.
I think this goes to the core of the issue. You don't think living a moral life means taking the responsibility. I completely disagree. God created us as a life form, a human being. Making an effort to live as a human being, and perpetuate the species, is the absolute essence of morality. It is morality.
Sure, you don't have to succeed, God has a plan for all of us, but you have to try. Intentions are important.
I'm not having this discussion anymore till someone posts something a trillion times smarter than that (shouldn't be too hard).
Yes supernaut. Just carry on the conversation with that person you know with 200 trillion iq. I will listen and learn.
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Disagree. If you can function normally in a hetrosexual relationship for years, but also find gay sex exciting, it means you are bi-sexual. You haven't 'realised you're gay' - you've just realised you can do it both ways. It doesn't matter whether society is homo-skeptical or homo-erotic, people's sexual desires always change over time. It doesn't mean you should abandon your responsibility every time you are excited about something new.
I agree.
Toleration means different things. I believe in personal privacy. I don't believe in the government telling us what to think, or telling us that gay relationships are same as marriage. That's not tolerance, that's state sponsored ignorance.
I agree that the government shouldn?t meddle in people?s lives, and that includes not telling them who they can and can?t marry.
You demanded simplicity, so I gave it to you. "What is your evidence that the god has a problem with people not procreating" is a pretty simplistic and naive question.
Only if you think that the god is a na?ve simpleton whose list of prohibitions is incomplete. Only if you think that the god needs us to come up with amusing reasons to add to the prohibitions stated in the great reading which don?t include a prohibition of same-sex marriage.
We're a species that has evolved over millions of years - you think this is has nothing to do with morality? Do you think God created us through blind chance?
Your questions seem irrelevant. I don?t see what you?re trying to get at. Your questions sound ?powerful?, ?awe-inspiring? and all that, but I don?t see how they?re relevant to this discussion and I think they?re just rhetoric.
Do you think that it God created DNA just for fun, the most complex and miraculous particle in the known universe?
More fancy words.
Remember that Islam means surrender. I think God controls the process of evolution. But God helps those who help themselves. All we have to do is put it in his hands, which means submitting our will to the will of God in marriage.
And how is any of that relevant to this discussion? Are you trying to argue that homosexuality is wrong because it impedes human evolution? Please explain how homosexuality impedes human evolution if that is indeed what you?re arguing. And if it is, then it?s clear that you think having kids is the only way humans can evolve. It seems you don?t think that teaching, writing books and other things that help disseminate knowledge contribute to human evolution.
I think this goes to the core of the issue. You don't think living a moral life means taking the responsibility. I completely disagree. God created us as a life form, a human being.
You should take up responsibilities, but having kids isn?t taking up responsibilities; having kids is creating responsibilities. You can?t hurt the kids you decide not to have by not having them.
Making an effort to live as a human being, and perpetuate the species, is the absolute essence of morality. It is morality.
How?
Sure, you don't have to succeed, God has a plan for all of us, but you have to try. Intentions are important.
Vague mumbo jumbo.
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Peace all and you bro "Arnold",
Finally i also have to agree with bro Arnold because the scientific evidence mentioned is true. People ARE BORN GAY. It is found amongst almost all mammals including us. Hence i did solve the problem for myself by analysing the verses and noticing tat it says when MEN have sex with MEN. NOW all we need to do is change the definition and get four independent sex categories i.e. male, female, gay, lesbian. Hence a gay is not a man and a lesbian is not a woman but theyr all humans and are to be respected. That even solves the prob for christians.
So the prob remains with bisexuals. I thght abt this and this is wht id like bro Arnold to clarify. IMO when a man is bisexual and he performs sex with a male even in a relationship he still bears inside him the POTENTIAL to go back to a woman and then back to a man. THIS could be it since now theres great instability. This is what i thght why the Quran condemns this and wht it means, not gayism. Astonishingly gays are even tolerated in sunni/shia socities ONLY THE NAME IS DIFFERENT. Those ppl are called "khusray" in Pak. This shows how much difference just a label can make even if the essential act is the same. I also read your interpretation of those verses. Sound interesting but unfortnately i didnt reach tht same conclusion so wht do you say of mine? GOD Bless!
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Peace "zulu" and all,
Ive heard these arguments that procreation is so important and the primary purpose of sex BUT this comes right out of the OT Bible. Infact other mammals also indulge in homosexual activities and it is for SOCIAL REASONS. It serves a social function. Besides this if you read my prevcious posts about hs youll be amazed to know tht I USED TO THINK EXACTLY LIKE YOU ZULU AND EVEN MORE HARSH IN MY COMMENTS BUT NOW LOOK HOW IVE EVOLVED. Here read some of tht shit id written and the ignorant poll id created in this regard
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9862.msg43732#msg43732
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13607.0 (The poll and lots of more unscientific garbage)
So if i can change despite my fanatic and unscientific claims in this regard so can you with time. As for the Quran opne verse can have more thna one understanding. How many other crucial verses did sunnis tranlsate wrong? Rem the one where Muhammad is to be blessed according to them in 3356 or wives are to be beaten as per 434 and now we know it's supporting and seprating respectively? Why cldnt they be wrong in understanding these verses? And the motive is all as strong since this is what ther Christians and Jews so vehemetly beleived and "muslims" in order to attract them had many concepts like 2nd coming of christ, circumcision though none mentioned in the Quran adopted so tht they cld plz them. Wht hypocrites they are. GOD Bless! -
Johnny K
Many thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately this is where the problem lies. Each person on this Forum and Movement seems to become an expert in Arabic overnight and starts to interperate the Qur'an according their own reasoning and starts slating Sunnis, Shias, Salafis, Wahabis and God knows who else as the main culprits for hoodwinking mankind into their evil ways of thinking in order to control the masses etc etc.. thus the mistranslation of the Qur'an claims. 1400 years of history and knowledge are disclaimed by sitting behind the computer. How about people start studying themselves and learning the Arabic language fluently in the first instance. This would be a very good pre cursor.
Secondly, some science also says that we evolved from apes! Do you also agree to this?
Science also has made numerous claims over the centuries and then reversed it's position. So which position would you accept? First or Second?
As far as the claims regarding being born gay , in May 2000, the American Psychiatric Association issued a Fact Sheet, "Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Issues," which includes this statement
"Currently, there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality."
Furthermore, in his book Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth, Dr. Jeffrey Satinover writes
We will see later the falsity of activists' repeated assertions that homosexuality is immutable. They seek to create the impression that science has settled these questions, but it most certainly has not. Instead, the changes that have occurred in both public and professional opinion have resulted from politics, pressure, and public relations.
The fact is no single study can be regarded as definitive, no person is born 'gay'.
You may have changed your way of thinking in order to appease and accept homosexuality, but for the billions of us Muslim, Jews and Christians. This isn't going to happen.
It is imperative that we seek knowledge and better ourselves with empowerment, but we use due diligence, critical examination, reason, logic and evidence. Not the flow of the wind or the direction of the band wagon.
Peace
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I agree that the government shouldn?t meddle in people?s lives, and that includes not telling them who they can and can?t marry.
Indeed, and nor should they change the definition of marriage.
Only if you think that the god is a na?ve simpleton whose list of prohibitions is incomplete. Only if you think that the god needs us to come up with amusing reasons to add to the prohibitions stated in the great reading which don?t include a prohibition of same-sex marriage.
I don't believe in any prohibitions. I think God gives human beings complete autonomy over their actions. But that doesn't mean there isn't such thing as right and wrong, and reason is the best way to decipher truth.
Your questions seem irrelevant. I don?t see what you?re trying to get at. Your questions sound ?powerful?, ?awe-inspiring? and all that, but I don?t see how they?re relevant to this discussion and I think they?re just rhetoric.
Have faith and believe, comrade! I'm trying to emphasize that morality is not something separate from human nature. The conventional wisdom today is that not only does sexuality not matter, but parentage does not matter. It's politically incorrect to mention evolution at all in the context of human welfare. But this is just cultural ignorance.
And how is any of that relevant to this discussion? Are you trying to argue that homosexuality is wrong because it impedes human evolution? Please explain how homosexuality impedes human evolution if that is indeed what you?re arguing. And if it is, then it?s clear that you think having kids is the only way humans can evolve. It seems you don?t think that teaching, writing books and other things that help disseminate knowledge contribute to human evolution.
Now let's see, how does choosing not having children impede evolution? You know about the birds and the bees, right?
You should take up responsibilities, but having kids isn?t taking up responsibilities; having kids is creating responsibilities. You can?t hurt the kids you decide not to have by not having them.
Again you're assuming there is no a priori purpose to human life. I think human life is valuable regardless of the opinions of people who think they aren't responsible enough to have children. Yes - the human race is not going to die out because of homosexuals not reproducing. But it will be poorer for the loss.
And that's the sin. There's a saying I heard. If a person spends their entire life praying, repeating 'Allah, Allah, Allah', counting beads etc, never lifting a finger to work, when they die, God will send this person straight to hell, because they have been lazy. When we have been created with the capacity to do things, choosing not to take any risks, not to exersise your abilities, is a rejection of God's gifts. Doing nothing is not the same and doing something.
They make a solitude and call it peace. Galgacus, in Tacitus 'Agricola'
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Peace "zulu",
Johnny K
Many thanks for your reply.
Unfortunately this is where the problem lies. Each person on this Forum and Movement seems to become an expert in Arabic overnight and starts to interperate the Qur'an according their own reasoning and starts slating Sunnis, Shias, Salafis, Wahabis and God knows who else as the main culprits for hoodwinking mankind into their evil ways of thinking in order to control the masses etc etc.. thus the mistranslation of the Qur'an claims. 1400 years of history and knowledge are disclaimed by sitting behind the computer. How about people start studying themselves and learning the Arabic language fluently in the first instance. This would be a very good pre cursor.
JK- Bro Arnold Yasin has studied classical Arabic and has Dr. Shabbir(www.ourbeacon.com) the latter one EXTENSIVELY.
Secondly, some science also says that we evolved from apes! Do you also agree to this?
JK- OFCOURSE I DO and so does the Quran and so did Ibn-e-Khaldoon. Here check out the irrefutbale eveidence for us sharing common ancetors with apelike creatures
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=zi8FfMBYCkk
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=De-OkzTUDVA (ERVS also irrefutable evidence)
Also visit www.taoarchives.org for mroe exxposition on creationists literature. Read bro Arnold's article on how evo is completely compatible with the Quran
http//19.org/index.php?id=91,415,0,0,1,0
My own evolution out of creationism to be found at
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13378.0Science also has made numerous claims over the centuries and then reversed it's position. So which position would you accept? First or Second?
JK- The latest scientific research is ALWAYS THE BEST KNOWLEDGE WED EVER HAVE AT ANY GIVEN TIME about the real world. The toe has more evidence to support it than even the atomic theory or the big bang.
As far as the claims regarding being born gay , in May 2000, the American Psychiatric Association issued a Fact Sheet, "Gay, Lesbian and Bisexual Issues," which includes this statement
"Currently, there is a renewed interest in searching for biological etiologies for homosexuality. However, to date there are no replicated scientific studies supporting any specific biological etiology for homosexuality."
Furthermore, in his book Homosexuality and the Politics of Truth, Dr. Jeffrey Satinover writes
We will see later the falsity of activists' repeated assertions that homosexuality is immutable. They seek to create the impression that science has settled these questions, but it most certainly has not. Instead, the changes that have occurred in both public and professional opinion have resulted from politics, pressure, and public relations.
The fact is no single study can be regarded as definitive, no person is born 'gay'.
You may have changed your way of thinking in order to appease and accept homosexuality, but for the billions of us Muslim, Jews and Christians. This isn't going to happen.
JK- Wiki Note Discard anything where reference is not provided!
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_orientation#Genetic_explanations
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_orientation#Physiological_differences_in_gay_men_and_lesbians
http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Homosexual_orientation
You should also read alll the various term links regarding this topic to get a better insight into the matter.It is imperative that we seek knowledge and better ourselves with empowerment, but we use due diligence, critical examination, reason, logic and evidence. Not the flow of the wind or the direction of the band wagon.
Peace
JK. Thats true and is exactly why i arrived at the aforementioned conclusions. GOD Bless!
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Jonny, you should post extracts relavent to the conversation rather than simply linking to wikipedia articles.
God Bless.