Verses on Homosexuality
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Peace Ramzi,
With all respect, but it is clear you have no knowledge at all when it comes to the relation between hormonal distribution during pregnancy and its relationship to later sexuality. You just speculate and come with this very simplist explanation, and very wrong, of a very complex development in human psyche. Plus you complete leave out the tons of contradictions your understanding creates where homosexuality arises in a culture where it is completely condemned and not present in the TV or movie culture.
Please do not come with these childish explanations for such an important human rights issue, it really dissapoints me.
There are many males who during the last part of the pregnancy had more female then male hormones which created a female sexual part of the brain instead of male as the rest of the body had development into. These guys are born gay because the brain part that controls sexuality was developed into a female version, and thus they can only project their sexuality on men. This also counts for lesbians who developed a female body, but in the last stage of pregnancy developed a male sexual brain.
This is just one, although the major one, of many factors that makes someone gay. The examples you mention, distortion through culture or abuse, doesn't explain even 10% of all homosexuals.
This is reality, now we must try to understand reality and how it interacts with the Qur'an.
Peace
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Peace Ramzi,
Thanks to the people who posted the verses on homosexuality. The position is very clear in the quran but, unfortunately, those who read it without a clear mind and without good intention will never understand the guidance.
The answer to the question 'are people born gay?' is a very silly question indeed!
So we should accept the prevalent opinion that the great reading condemns homosexuality unquestioningly? Hasn't such an attitude always been detrimental to muslims?
It is similar to asking 'are people born liking apples?'
I hope you understand the similarity there; if not, let me try and explain..........
I hope we are all talking about 'gay' in the sense of sexually attracted to the same sex........
If so, then this is a sexual desire, some say that these people were born with it.... is that so?
In the world today, there are 'straight' males who are only sexually attracted to black females. And some males who are only sexually attracted to white females, and would never be able to sleep/date/marry a balck female..... this is due to their sexual desires..... There are also western females who are sexually attracted to Arab males. Are they born with this?
These sexual desires depend on the external influence on the individual.
Yes, but Black, White and Arab women are all women. The latest science proves that your analogy can't be applied to homosexuality because a person's sexuality is determined a great deal during prenatal development and perhaps genes too play a factor in determining a person's sexuality. Gay men share a gene with "ultra fertile women" that scientists speculate might contribute to homosexuality.
All these sexual desires can change, again depending on the external influences....
Really? Why don't you link us to an article on a study that produced credible results?
If a young homosexual child is sexually abused and raped by an older male, his (young child) tendencies and desires quickly change.
Unfortunately, in the real world, it works the other way...... an old male abuses a young child, the young child wishes he were some other boy, and he ends up gay.This is a very popular "theory", but I've never read anything that supports such an idea. What about all the gay men who weren't abused as children?
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So we should accept the prevalent opinion that the great reading condemns homosexuality unquestioningly? Hasn't such an attitude always been detrimental to muslims?
Salaam Supernaut,
What about when the great reading condemns deliberate killing unquestioningly (4-93)? Should we accept it, or find genetic/scientific reasons to why some people have to kill? )
Regards
Ramzi
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It is so insidious isn't it. Terms such as 'homosexual' and 'anal sex'. These terms equate sodomy and sodomites as the same as 'heterosexual' and 'vaginal sex'. So people become conditioned to believing the sodomites are just the same as normal people.
If I was to go out eating with you and I pulled down my trousers and started shoving food up my backside and said I am just 'anally eating' whereas you are just 'orally eating' you would consider me mentally unstable and would say that this way of 'eating' serves no intrinsic biological function. What is the difference?
I agree with you on this, "anal sex" is an oxymoron. Same with "oral sex". Oral masturbation would be a more accurate term.
Pope Ben is right to say how the abuse of human sexuality is comparable to the destruction of the world's environment, though he can hardly present himself as a defender of heterosexuality when he demands priests and nuns remain celebrate for life.
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Salaam Arnold,
Thanks for the reply...
Please do not come with these childish explanations for such an important human rights issue, it really dissapoints me.
Such an important human rights issue? It has become a human rights issue because homosexuality is seen as acceptable.
Can we say that the whole thing be split into 3 stages
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the development of same sex attractions
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the growing/development of these feelings
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the acting upon them
Now I hope you agree with me that the first stage can occur to anyone, anywhere in the world. Some are more prone to the development of same sex attracions, be it their feminine nature (for males) or masculine nature (for females), or the causes you mentioned during pregnancy. There are other examples like, death of a parent, parents divorce at a young age, having a twin, bullying at school, peer pressure, being in an all girls school, all boys school, obesity, medical illness, disability, and many others.
So, natural causes (if these are really true) and certain social/environmental conditions/influences can be the causes of stage 1.
It's the second set of social influences that bring about stages 2 and 3. And these are the ones I am talking about.
Things such as, Gay pride, gay clubbing, gay tv, and gay rights for civil partnership and adoption. Homosexuality being seen as normal, encouraged.This second set of social influences help develop same sex attractions in what we like to term 'confused people'. And then cause them to act upon these feelings.
Now, I am not contradicting myself by saying this because what makes a person gay is stage 3 and not stage 1 by itself. Therfore, I repeat no one is born gay.
Do we call someone a killer if he/she wishes to kill someone but doesnt do it? Is someone a paedophile if he/she is sexually aroused by child pornography in their minds? Is someone a thief if he/she intends to steal but never steals?
Is someone gay if they have same sex feelings but never act upon those feelings?
You are right in that there are cases of homosexuality in cultures that completely condemn it. Middle East for example. But how many are there? Do you agree that their numbers are significantly less than the cases of homosexuality in the west (where it is not condemned at all).
The earlier a child is taught that these same-sex feelings are wrong and must be controlled, the better. But if the child is brought up in a society where it is acceptable, fun, encouraged, then it becomes difficult to supress these feelings and control them.
A person is NEVER born gay. Some are more prone to become gay (different reasons) but ultimately, it depends on the upbringing that determines whether or not that person becomes homosexual.
This is just one, although the major one, of many factors that makes someone gay. The examples you mention, distortion through culture or abuse, doesn't explain even 10% of all homosexuals.
This is reality, now we must try to understand reality and how it interacts with the Qur'an.
Peace
I respcet your comments but I disagree with this. A very strange statement from you I believe. Shouldn't it be the other way round?
The quran is the reality that we use as guidance, If it condemns homosexuality then we should follow it.
Are you saying that if we humans prove that a person can be born gay that we adapt our interpretation of the guidance we have in the Qur'an to include this new reality?
Yes, but think about it.... will our interpretation of the Qur'an's view on homosexuality change with this new reality?
I think not. The Qur'an's view on this is pretty clear.
Please look at this example below carefully.
I ask you about a severly mentally handicapped person.
Question 1 Do we allow him to steal, walk around the streets naked?
No. We do all that we can to prevent this.
Question 2 Is this person accountable for his/her actions if he/she did infact kill someone?
Well, it is up to Allah to decide, but my opinion is no.
If a person is really born a homosexual,
Question 2) is he/she accountable for acting upon these feelings?
Only God knows.
Now question 1) ..... do we allow these homosexuals rights like civil partnership? adoption? Show their lifestyle to the world?
No, we do not, regardless of whether they are born with it or not.
My opinion is that, if people are born with homosexuality then it is a handicap. I still believe that no one is born gay however, despite scientific attempts to prove it.
Back to your statement about reality and Qur'an,,,,,,
If 'people born gay' is a reality, then the Qur'an already includes this reality. And God already knows that people can be born gay, even if it takes us to year 2050 to prove it. The Qur'an does not include any exceptions to its view on homosexuality. So this includes your reality about people born gay.
Regards
Ramzi
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ON THE OTHER HAND
Although the Qu'ran does not have verse explicitly in favor of homosexuality, it does have verses which show awareness of male beauty. These are promises made to Muslim men who make it to Heaven.
SURA LII24
"And there shall wait on them young boys of their own, as fair as virgin pearls."
SURA LXXVI19
"They shall be attended by boys graced with eternal youth, who will seem like scattered pearls to the beholders."
http//www.fordham.edu/halsall/pwh/quran-homo.html
You'll need to refer to the arabic, as another translation it has that "wiladan" as something like "immortal youths". Perhaps the pervert is reading too much into the verse, as would one sodomize their children?
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Peace Ramzi,
As this discussion was already held in detail in the original earlier thread of a few months ago, I ask you to first read my reply there in detail because your statement that the Qur'an doesn't take exceptions is an exclusive statement that completely neglects all the verses involved. The Qur'an first of all attacks them because the men were married, but they rather wanted to live in lust with other men. Since it is IMPOSSIBLE all of these men were attracted to other men, something more is happening here that excludes natural homosexuality.
Second, again your statement "we can teach the kids from a young age those feelings are wrong" shows you have no experience at all with reality. I can already say that 80% of all gay persons, this has been said to them all their life. But this doesn't make them less gay since their brain is the opposite of their body! They are BORN gay. Please stop these childish escapegoats by trying to come up with these simplistic explanations that have no bearing on reality at all. They are born gay because their brain is the opposite of their body, this is factual observable science. Not the conjecture which you use. The depressions and suicides among gay people because they must deny their real identity is an everyday occurence.
So this is something the Qur'an doesn't mean for us to do, to deny natural born people their own identity. There is something more going on in those verses, and if you read the previous threads, you will see the Arabic has more details then the superflious reading of a translation.
I am not gay myself, but part of my psychology and gender studies I have interviewed dozens and dozens of gay people, many of which are also my friends. So I talk from experience, not conjecture.
Yes, the Qur'an must interact with reality when it is clear something is natural while we always thought it was unnatural. Anthropology studies have shown war and killing is unnatural, and it was only done when to do justice. Male and female were completely equal among the early humans and there were no tribe leaders, since there were no real tribes, but groups that moved from one place to the other and worked peacefully with other roaming groups.
All of these facts clearly interact with the Qur'an. The Qur'an can only work if we study nature and history and try to see if we approach the Qur'an correctly, this is what the Qur'an tells us constantly to do.
The Qur'an condemns wars and killing and unequality among the genders and the unequal distribution of wealth and resources. Why? Because these are the matters which will make Mankind survive as a species and will make us succesful. This is why certain stability is required in society, thus children must have stable parents for example. This is why fornication is condemned and divorce has strict rules. Homosexuality is only naturally present among 5-8% of all worldpopulation. Most of them are monogamous like anyone else. Their monogamous relationship, and thus not the orgy living of Sodom, can do no harm at all to society and they can contribute as much as anyone else.
The people of Sodom were married with wives, were raiding the traderoutes and treated any outsides as enemies and wanted to rape them (guests of Lot for example) , all of these created their destruction. We know Bab-a-Drah. which is most likely Sodom, was raided itself by war and all of its population was killed. We are talking 4000BC, Bab-a-drah was the largest city in that area. The people surrounding it did not live in cities or towns but were nomads. So for these nomads to unite and attack Sodom, they must have had a very good reason. Because the Sodomers were raiders and looters. It is interesting that the city was burned and many people were buried in their own houses when they collapsed. The houses were built from baked clay, (sijjil).
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The story of Lot is also about aggressive homosexual rape. It says
SURA XXIX-29. What! do ye approach men?, and stop folks on the highway?
SURA XI-79-81. They said, 'Thou knowest that we have no claim on thy daughters; verily, thou knowest what we want!'
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He said, 'Had I but power over you; or could I but resort to some strong column....!'
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(The angels) said, 'O Lot! verily, we are the messengers of thy Lord, they shall certainly not reach thee;
Its not the same as concentual homosexual activity.
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exactly.
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Salaam Ramzi,
What about when the great reading condemns deliberate killing unquestioningly (4-93)? Should we accept it, or find genetic/scientific reasons to why some people have to kill?
Forgive me if this sounds forward, but it seems that you're implying it's ungodly to find a scientific explanation for homosexuality only because you can't find any credible scientific evidence that people choose to be gay. And yes, we should question the traditional understanding that people have of what the great reading says about killing. Many people on this forum have and are decent people because of it. If they'd accepted Sunni and Shia beliefs about killing, they'd say it's okay to kill people for petty things like blasphemy, which no decent society criminalizes.
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I was wrong. Bab edh-Dhra (Sodom) was invaded while Numeira (Gomorrah) was burnt down. Anyway, the documentary's available in five parts and you can watch them at the following addresses
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=mzwdiUwkjmY
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=j0O3CbWK-RQ&feature=related
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWvq0om1yeE&feature=related
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=txfTpE0wmQc&feature=related
http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=c49Y7E84Nq4&feature=related -
Salaam Ramzi,
Forgive me if this sounds forward, but it seems that you're implying it's ungodly to find a scientific explanation for homosexuality only because you can't find any credible scientific evidence that people choose to be gay. And yes, we should question the traditional understanding that people have of what the great reading says about killing. Many people on this forum have and are decent people because of it. If they'd accepted Sunni and Shia beliefs about killing, they'd say it's okay to kill people for petty things like blasphemy, which no decent society criminalizes.
Peace,
The more important reason Ramzi's attempt doesn't hold is because murder is harming another person and society. Monogamous homosexuality with relation-contract doesn't harm anyone or society.
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The more important reason Ramzi's attempt doesn't hold is because murder is harming another person and society. Monogamous homosexuality with relation-contract doesn't harm anyone or society.
Salaam brother Arnold,
I feel that you do not give enough credit to my argument becuase of your knowledge and experience in the subject. I argue becuase I feel (maybe I'm wrong) that accepting a person can be born gay may have negative effets on society.
What two consenting adults do in private is fine by me. What I am against is homosexual civil partnerships. And homosexual couples adopting.
Lets assume a person can be born gay.... What happens to his/her rights?
(I can elaborate for hours but I feel that these short thought provoking questions do the trick, unfortunately similar questions in my previous posts did not)
I am not gay myself, but part of my psychology and gender studies I have interviewed dozens and dozens of gay people, many of which are also my friends. So I talk from experience, not conjecture.
I appreciate your experience in the topic brother Arnold, but my view is that these people you interview, with all due respect to your friends, are blinded/confused.
To be fair in your judgement, have you interviewed ex-gays? And asked their opinions and how they managed to 'convert'/'turn' back to 'straight'?
I feel you will have a better grip on reality once you make a decision looking into both sides. And that is something I have done.
Regards
Ramzi
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Salaam brother,
Brother, it doesn't matter what you think harms society, a large part of homosexuals are BORN gay, are natural homosexuals. Whaterever you do, you cannot argue your way out of it. There are people born as natural gays, the story of Lot clearly talks about aggressive and oppressive sexual behaviour, not love relationship. The term Shahwat is used, which refers to blind loveless lust/greed.
Homosexuals in a monogamous relationship does not harm society. No diseases are spread, there is no unstable relations, they contribute to society as much as you and me. When it comes to adopting children, it really depends on how the couple is. Many gay-parents are great parents studies have shown, and the interesting part is, that their adopted children (or their own in some cases), the percentage of their children turning being gay is LOWER then among heterosexual parents.
The persons who are ex-gay ( yes, I know them too) were all NON-natural homosexuals, but got into it because of lust or experiments in their youth. So again, your argument doesn't stand.
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Yes, also it feels like people who will read these comments will think "well it's ok if i do all the wrong things in private, as long as i'm good in public i will be fine"
Isn't that known as hypocrisy? And wont the hypocrits be in the deapest depths of hell?
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Can we please recognize the difference between a homosexual individual and those who fornicate in same sexim?
Thank you.
Salaam FAR,
According to me, a homosexual individual is one that fornicates with the same sex.
If someone does not fornicate with the same sex then he/she is not a homosexual. Regardless of whether this person is sexually attracted to the same sex or not.
According to some studies as brother Arnold pointed out, one may be born with these same sex attracions. That is no excuse for him/her to act upon them and fornicate with the same sex. Nor is it an excuse for demanding rights for recognition of partnerships or adoption.
Having these same sex attractions does not make a person homosexual. Acting upon them does.
Unfortunately, the view is that if you have same sex attractions then you are gay/homosexual. And these poor people are blinded and confused by this false concept. They look at life through this concept and will never come out of it.
With regards to Yosemite, you are right.... but I think the bigger issue was regarding negative effects to society. I said earlier that whatever 2 consenting adults do in private is fine by me. That does not make it ok to do the wrong things in private. What I mean is that it is of no concern to me. It does become a concern if it has negative effects on society (meaning it will harm me).
If such acts remain private then who am I to mouth off about it. What concerns me is people allowing homosexuals to adopt kids.
Regards
Ramzi
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Salaam ramzi,
According to me, a homosexual individual is one that fornicates with the same sex.
If someone does not fornicate with the same sex then he/she is not a homosexual. Regardless of whether this person is sexually attracted to the same sex or not.
The English dictionary defines "Homosexual" as someone who's attracted to members of the same sex, but the definition of the word "Homosexual" is quite irrelevant to this discussion in my humble opinion.
According to some studies as brother Arnold pointed out, one may be born with these same sex attracions. That is no excuse for him/her to act upon them and fornicate with the same sex. Nor is it an excuse for demanding rights for recognition of partnerships or adoption.
Why not?
Having these same sex attractions does not make a person homosexual. Acting upon them does.
You're just obfuscating things, but for the purpose of this discussion, I'll assume that a homosexual is simply someone who acts on homosexual impulses.
Unfortunately, the view is that if you have same sex attractions then you are gay/homosexual. And these poor people are blinded and confused by this false concept. They look at life through this concept and will never come out of it.
How does this concept blind and confuse us?
With regards to Yosemite, you are right.... but I think the bigger issue was regarding negative effects to society. I said earlier that whatever 2 consenting adults do in private is fine by me. That does not make it ok to do the wrong things in private. What I mean is that it is of no concern to me. It does become a concern if it has negative effects on society (meaning it will harm me).
How will these acts harm anyone?
If such acts remain private then who am I to mouth off about it. What concerns me is people allowing homosexuals to adopt kids.
Why does allowing homosexuals to adopt kids alarm you? Studies show that lesbians make the best parents.