Black mud = black-colored man?
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And you don't think this had any effect on Adam's skin color at all?
according to the previous thread, white men can't be descended from black men because the dominant black genetic traits would surpress the expression of the recessive white genetic traits. being that adam was the first man and was black because he was made from black mud, there would be no chance for white genetic traits to become expressed at all in the human race. according to this white people shouldn't exist.
but... they do... so I have to review the argument. the color of the mud probably had nothing to do with the amount of melanin in the skin. because its the weakest point of that logic. "the best place to hide a lie is between two truths" (canibus, my favorite rap artist)
Not to say the first man wasn't black... just saying being made out of a black substance doesn't necessarily mean he's genetically racially black... he could have been any color, even one long extinct that humans don't come in anymore. God knows better than any of us.
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Scientific Adam had black skin, but Adam's hominid ancestors had white skin. Human skin turned black only after humans lost their body hair. Their skin had to turn black because white skin doesn't provide much protection from the sun's UV rays (those rays cause premature skin aging and skin cancer). Adam's European descendants probably got white skin due to genetic mutation and they had to have white skin otherwise they'd have probably died out and the reason is that black skin isn't very good at making vitamin D which is essential for bone health.
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Peace Rsw,
according to the previous thread, white men can't be descended from black men because the dominant black genetic traits would surpress the expression of the recessive white genetic traits. being that adam was the first man and was black because he was made from black mud, there would be no chance for white genetic traits to become expressed at all in the human race. according to this white people shouldn't exist.
Whoa! I never said this... I just said that if Adam was created physically perfect, he wouldn't have been able to produce recessive genes, meaning white people wouldn't have come down his line of genealogy. However, I'm starting to study the idea of human perfection... Regardless, though, Adam's direct offspring wouldn't have been able to produce pale children. The only way they could produce a pale offspring from all dominant traits is through a genetic defect, such as a melanin deficiency. However, this isn't the case, since this would've produced possible ONE WHITE CHILD, and he or she would've become reintegrated into black dominance after reproducing with a lineage of blacks... That's why I say that black people and white people don't have the same ancestors. Granted, we all have ONE COMMON ANCESTOR, no doubt about it. However, I don't think that one ancestor was Adam. Rather, it may have been Adam's wife (i.e. "Eve".
Not to say the first man wasn't black... just saying being made out of a black substance doesn't necessarily mean he's genetically racially black... he could have been any color, even one long extinct that humans don't come in anymore.
I completely agree with you... The problem is, though, that modern science confirms the concept of Adam, the first man, being a black, African man. Genetics also confirms this, since racial dominance slows down over time. So, in order for there to be as many races throughout the world as there are today, the human race would've had to start with the most dominant and extend downward to recessive genes. And the most dominant of genetic traits is DARK, BLACK SKIN. So, based on this, Adam had to have been black-skinned... This doesn't mean white people shouldn't exist, though. It just means that white people have a solid base of recessive genes, not dominant ones. So, wherever they came from, they originally came from a black person or black people, whether it was Adam or someone else with a defective genetic string...
Peace,
Ahmad
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peace,
I happen to like black slime. That video shows just that, black slime. I'll have to be reviewing all the words that the Quran uses for the earth that man was made from for my own edification.
There's salsal (of the earth) which is quintessence and a certain kind of earth.
Then there's hama'in which is both black and fetid (which is almost like saying full of fermentation and organic material)
Then there's tin (with a taw), which is just earth really and can be used for wet earth as well.I really don't know which word is the baker's clay one. I'll have to check that out. I do know that bacteria like clay, and there's something about its composition that is good for life. People even eat clay and use it as medicine. It is said to be a very important aspect that must be present in good humus. Clays are minerals (rocks) that have been chemically weathered.
With that said, if human beings were made from black earth (inside and out) more than just the skin would be black, everything in that first human being would be black. And I think it is very unplausible that the earth we were made from was from heavily melaninated completely decayed (decaying destroys the melanin) animals whose melanin happened to survive in that soil in enough amounts to give color to the humans that were the first product of that soil. And then we come back to the original problem. If there was enough melanin to make the soil black and that black color is what gave the first human beings their black color, why then was everything in that first human being not also black (teeth, eyeballs, flesh, blood, brain etc).
So again I DO believe that the first human beings WERE black. But I don't believe that it is because of the black soil they were made from. I believe that the black soil we were made from is the origin of all life on earth. And we were just one mold cast among many. But that black mud when reorganized and worked on by God through his ways created all the colors of life on earth. The first human beings were black because that is the only logical conclusion. White skin does not protect human beings from the tropical sun from which we came and black skin does not let as much sunlight in, and in a place where sunlight is scant and dietary vitamin d is scant dark skin is a disadvantage. All in all the original black human beings had to have had alot of genetic diversity within, JUST like the first dogs, horses, cows, etc (who are now full of different breeds which many different colors, shapes and sizes). If we mix all of the genetic groups on earth we will still get black people and that is the main proof that the original man was black. As well as the findings all over the world that show that Negroes of some type or another were the original people in all the continents. Non-negroes came later and in many places mixed in with the native negro populations. This is the truth that Eurocentrists want to deny. ANd the anti-black hadeeths need to be understood in the context of their time and environment. Al-Jahiz is proof of the fact that not everyone believed those anti-black versions of history. These anti-black versions can be understood in the context of the peopling of the Arab tribes and the islamic world and the events that happened during those times.
Godbless,
Anwar -
http//againstscience.com/2008/12/31/science-takes-quran-initiative-to-suggest-man-originated-from-smectite-clay/
Quran 1526 And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound, of black mud fashioned in shape1528And when your Lord said to the angels Surely I am going to create a mortal of the essence of black mud fashioned in shape.
New Scientist online recently studied and adopted this fact. (source)
Two of the crucial components for the origin of life - genetic material and cell membranes - could have been introduced to one another by a lump of clay, new experiments have shown.The study of montmorillonite clay, by Martin Hanczyc, Shelly Fujikawa and Jack Szostak at the Massachusetts General Hospital in Boston, revealed it can sharply accelerate the formation of membranous fluid-filled sacs.
These vesicles also grow and undergo a simple form of division, giving them the properties of primitive cells. Previous work has shown that the same simple mineral can help assemble the genetic material RNA from simpler chemicals. Interestingly, the clay also gets internalised in the vesicles, says Leslie Orgel, an origin of life expert at the Salk Institute for Biological Sciences in San Diego, California. So this work is quite nice in that it finds a connection between the mechanism that creates RNA and encloses it in a membrane.
Quran did not just mention our coming from clay, but mentioned the particular type of clay! Montmorillonite (smectite) clay, a photoacoustic clay, clay that gives off sound from light (Quartz crystal property).
The interesting thing to note is that man has for centuries known and recognized the special quality and found a relationship with smectite aka- montmorillonite clay, a volcanic ash clay. This has long been widely used for medicinal purposes. Wikipedia
Montmorillonite has been used in cosmetics and has reputed therapeutic effects. Indeed over 200 cultures have used the clay for medicinal purposes including the Ancient Egyptians, the Essenes and the pre-Aztec Amargosians, and other natives of Mexico, South America and North America. Under the name Mengtuoshi San it is still a popular and widely available treatment for diarrhea in China.
It is obvious from this that man has via monotheism known forever the qualities of the clay we were made from. And science is once again the last to catch up on this. The evidence is from the Quranic verses above- 1526 And certainly We created man of clay that gives forth sound
Man (and of course the Muslims from prophet Muhammed{PBUH}) always knew the quality of semectite clay (giving off sound). This clay, smectite, is nicknamed montmorillonite and bentonite in accordance to deposits found in France and Wyoming respectively.
Quartz crystal acts as a transducer. It can convert energy in the form of light into energy in the form of sound, or vibration ( and vice versa )
Allah is the greatest!, the Originator!
Scientists definitely embarked on this study from reading Al Quran, or talking with the illuminated.
We will show them Our Signs on the horizon(geography, ecology, astronomy, space travel etc) and within themselves(genetics, Biochemistry, microscopy etc) until it is clear to them that it is the truth,(Quran Surah Fussilat, 53)
He Who has created all things in the best possible way. He commenced the creation of man from clay; then He made his progeny from an extract of discarded fluid. (Quran, 327-
Allah knows best
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Peace,
I don't know if you saw this when Wakas posted it, but here's "salsaal"
The word in question...
From
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htmSad-Lam-Lam / Sad-Lam-Sad-Lam = to resound, clash, be dried up, emit a sound. sallatun - sound, clank, dry earth. salsaal - dry ringing clay, sounding/dried clay.
salsal n.m. 1526, 1528, 1533, 2533?, 5514
LL, V4, p 433, 434, 435
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It is interesting that it implies that a form of vessel was created, ready for something to be put into it.
Notice that it implies a vessel that is ready for something to be PUT INTO IT! That's means "salsaal" is referring to the exterior composition, and the interior formation could be composed of something completely different. This could not only be his "soul/spirit" (if you believe in such a thing), but it could be referring to Adam's skin, bones, blood, etc...
And regardless of these ridiculous arguments about carbon, it has nothing to do with this discussion, and you're completely missing the point. Here's what RSW said in the beginning, as the subject overview
If carbon is indeed the "black mud" described t is entirely possible for the first man to have been made from a black mud without necessarily being black-skinned. I believe the color of the first man's skin is probably dark (due to african origins of humanity) but I do not believe that white-colored people can not be descended from the first man because of their color, or that the use of "black mud" in the creation of the first man implies that any men of any other color must have been from a different creation. Any thoughts?
The point of this is the same conclusion is drawn regardless of your arguments. The first man was black, and his children had a direct lineage of all dominant genetic traits. Unless some genetic defect occurred in the midst to break the cycle of dominance, recessive genes didn't come from Adam. The only way they could have in the state they were in is if Adam reproduced with a woman with recessive genes, and this wasn't Eve. Otherwise, if Eve mixed with someone with a recessive gene, then this could've also happened, but this person wasn't Adam... I'm not saying black people and white people aren't related by ancestry - of course they are. Everyone is related by common ancestry. I just don't think this person is Adam. And whether the first man was shaped from carbon, mud, or apple pie, the conclusion is the same. So, all this useless talk about carbon compounds being used to form humans is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Peace,
Ahmad
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Peace,
The point of this is the same conclusion is drawn regardless of your arguments. The first man was black, and his children had a direct lineage of all dominant genetic traits. Unless some genetic defect occurred in the midst to break the cycle of dominance, recessive genes didn't come from Adam. The only way they could have in the state they were in is if Adam reproduced with a woman with recessive genes, and this wasn't Eve. Otherwise, if Eve mixed with someone with a recessive gene, then this could've also happened, but this person wasn't Adam... I'm not saying black people and white people aren't related by ancestry - of course they are. Everyone is related by common ancestry. I just don't think this person is Adam. And whether the first man was shaped from carbon, mud, or apple pie, the conclusion is the same. So, all this useless talk about carbon compounds being used to form humans is COMPLETELY IRRELEVANT.
Peace,
Ahmad
Genetic mutations (or "defects" like you call them) are pretty well accepted... I think that's the current mainstream explanation for why white people exist. And it doesn't have to occur in Adam's lifetime... could have been many generations later. Doesn't require Eve or Adam to make offspring with anybody else in the world... but the idea that white people could be descended from Adam (and, thus, fully human) just seems unreconcilable with you.
I think the problem in this is coming down to how did all the diversity in the world come down from two single individuals? It's not just a question about melanin... and it's not just a question about the past. it has to do with the way we define humans according to the quran.
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In other words you're implying that white people are not human? That they are somehow related to the fallen "angels".
This is NOT what I'm saying at all. Both white and black people are physically human. However, this doesn't have anything to do with ancestry. All of the angelic beings become manifest ("human" when they enter our physical realm, this planet earth... Now, it is a possibility that they may be related to the 'fallen angel' Iblis. But this doesn't make them "not human". It just makes them different from black people, in many ways a different species, and this is because of their genetic melanin depletion and concentration of recessive genetic traits. It doesn't mean black people are inferior or superior to white people, it just means that the two groups are different and separate from eachother...
Genetic mutations (or "defects" like you call them) are pretty well accepted... I think that's the current mainstream explanation for why white people exist. And it doesn't have to occur in Adam's lifetime... could have been many generations later. Doesn't require Eve or Adam to make offspring with anybody else in the world... but the idea that white people could be descended from Adam (and, thus, fully human) just seems unreconcilable with you.
Your statement regarding the mutations not necessarily occurring within Adam's lifetime are absolutely correct, and I'm not saying they happened during this time specifically. However, it would still involve somebody mixing with somebody with these genetic mutations (which at the time would've been defective), and before the spread of white, melanin-depleted people, THEY DIDN'T EXIST. Everybody had a firm consistency of dominant genetic traits, so where did the "outsider" come from? Whether you base it as a million years ago or a thousand years ago, the problem still exists. Where did this mutated person come from, and who did he or she mix with? I just give the example of Iblis mating with Eve because this is a Jewish story that circulated around their nation, and some say it originated in the Torah. It's just an example of a possible scenario, not an absolute, proven fact.
I think the problem in this is coming down to how did all the diversity in the world come down from two single individuals? It's not just a question about melanin... and it's not just a question about the past. it has to do with the way we define humans according to the quran.
This is very true as well, and this is shown in the Quran in the contrasts between humans and jinns. This is what implies that humans and jinns are both "human" (or human-like) creatures, and jinns are not invisible flying spirit creatures. This is also what forms the separation between black and white skin complexions. If Adam was black, then the Bani Adam will be black-skinned people. And if this is the case, the easiest way to identify the jinn is to site them as the ones who are not black-skinned people... Although this could've been done a thousand years ago, it doesn't work as well today because white people and black people have intermixed, and there's no way to specifically identify a "pure black" or "pure white" person. Everybody is, in a sense, 'all mixed up'... This is just one theory of genetic evolution and development of humans. It doesn't mean it's completely absolute. But so far, it seems to be the most reasonable.
Some Hebrews (who base their ideologies on the Torah) claim that, according to an ancient Jewish tradition, Noah's son Japheth intermixed with a female demon, and his descendants were, according to the Bible, the fathers of the European (white) nations. So, again, this story relays the same concept. Humans were all black-skinned people until somebody mixed with an "outsider" (in this case a demon) to produce white people. According to the Biblical texts
Now these are the generations of the sons of Noah, Shem, Ham, and Japheth and unto them were sons born after the flood. The sons of Japheth; Gomer, and Magog, and Madai, and Javan, and Tubal, and Meshech, and Tiras. And the sons of Gomer; Ashkenaz, and Riphath, and Togarmah. And the sons of Javan; Elishah, and Tarshish, Kittim, and Dodanim. By these were the isles of the Gentiles divided in their lands; every one after his tongue, after their families, in their nations. (Genesis 101-5)
These sons of Gomer were indeed the fathers of the European nations, which is illustrated by their names. The problem arises when you consider the actual genealogy. According to these same scriptures, Noah's sons were black people (fathers of Canaan, Ethiopia, Kush, and Egypt). So, how did his son develop a society of white-skinned people? The Hebrews solve this mystery by saying Japheth intermixed with a demon, and this is where the white people came from... What do you think of this story?
Peace,
Ahmad
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Wow! thanks for sharing that story with me. I had never heard that story before, and it does sound extremely similar to yours. When I was a kid, though, my grandfather (who I grew up next door to) told me a story that was very similar to it, nearly exactly the same, with some details exchanged. I'm not going to post it because it's very racist (he was a very racist person), but I will say the plot involved biblical characters all being white up to a point when one mixed with a non-human creating other colors. being a kid I actually believed that for many years until i actually started thinking for myself a little bit....
and that's probably why I'm slow to believe that low melanin production is an indicator of descent from a specific set of antagonized quranic characters. however after rolling this back and forth thru my brain for the past few weeks ive come to the conclusion that your position is as logical and sensical as any other. i still don't necessarily agree that "black mud = black man" (i still think it's carbon!!!!).... but like you said, it doesn't matter. history/geography tells us what color adam and the prophets were.
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Wow! thanks for sharing that story with me. I had never heard that story before, and it does sound extremely similar to yours. When I was a kid, though, my grandfather (who I grew up next door to) told me a story that was very similar to it, nearly exactly the same, with some details exchanged. I'm not going to post it because it's very racist (he was a very racist person), but I will say the plot involved biblical characters all being white up to a point when one mixed with a non-human creating other colors. being a kid I actually believed that for many years until i actually started thinking for myself a little bit....
and that's probably why I'm slow to believe that low melanin production is an indicator of descent from a specific set of antagonized quranic characters. however after rolling this back and forth thru my brain for the past few weeks ive come to the conclusion that your position is as logical and sensical as any other. i still don't necessarily agree that "black mud = black man" (i still think it's carbon!!!!).... but like you said, it doesn't matter. history/geography tells us what color adam and the prophets were.
Many people disagree with this concept, and even if you do, thanks for really trying to understand the concept. Most people disregard everything that conflicts with their point of view. Indeed, God rewards those who show humility...
Peace,
Ahmad
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2832 - "Put your hand into your pocket; it will come out white without a blemish. Fold your wings and settle down from your fear. These are two proofs from your Lord, to be shown to Pharaoh and his elders; they have been wicked people."
White = without a blemish. What do you think about this? Thanks. Peace.
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Peace,
I think if Moses (God bless him) pulled out his hand and it was white (with or without blemish), and that is a miraculous phenomenon, that means that Moses what not a color that anyone could consider white. He must have been dark for this to happen. How dark, we'll never know. But he had to be dark enough for that to make a big impression. So I'd say that he had to be visibly brown-skinned (what shade, we'll probably never know).
Godbless,
Anwar -
I think if Moses (God bless him) pulled out his hand and it was white (with or without blemish), and that is a miraculous phenomenon, that means that Moses what not a color that anyone could consider white. He must have been dark for this to happen. How dark, we'll never know. But he had to be dark enough for that to make a big impression. So I'd say that he had to be visibly brown-skinned (what shade, we'll probably never know).
He had to have been extremely dark. The ancient Egyptians considered themselves the "blackest" of the black-skinned people, and this is shown by their hieroglyphics. According to the story of Moses in the Torah, Moses was raised as an Egyptian prince, and the pharaoah (who was most likely "Seti I" believed that Moses was his grandson until Moses killed an Egyptian when he was FORTY YEARS OLD! This Egyptian pharaoh thought Moses was his blood relative for 40 years. This makes it clear that Moses had to look like the Egyptians, and he was most likely just as dark as they were. And this is why his hand turning "white" would be considered such a great miracle - his skin turned the near-opposite color of the rest of his body.
Peace,
Ahmad
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He had to have been extremely dark. The ancient Egyptians considered themselves the "blackest" of the black-skinned people, and this is shown by their hieroglyphics. According to the story of Moses in the Torah, Moses was raised as an Egyptian prince, and the pharaoah (who was most likely "Seti I" believed that Moses was his grandson until Moses killed an Egyptian when he was FORTY YEARS OLD! This Egyptian pharaoh thought Moses was his blood relative for 40 years. This makes it clear that Moses had to look like the Egyptians, and he was most likely just as dark as they were. And this is why his hand turning "white" would be considered such a great miracle - his skin turned the near-opposite color of the rest of his body.
Peace,
Ahmad
Yes your right, moses was black actually most were.
Song of Solomon 15
"I am black but lovely, O daughters of Jerusalem, Like the tents of Kedar, Like the curtains of Solomon.oh ya I'm a black jew by the way
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Yes your right, moses was black actually most were.
Song of Solomon 15
"I am black but lovely, O daughters of Jerusalem, Like the tents of Kedar, Like the curtains of Solomon.oh ya I'm a black jew by the way
By being a "black jew", do you mean you're an actual "Jew", as in related to the Ashkenazi Jews, or you're a descendant of the Hebrew Israelites? Or do you actually practice the teachings of Judaism? Judaism is a religion, while Israelite is a national heritage... I'm a descendant of the Hebrews as well, but I'm not a Jew, I'm a muslim/submitter... )
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By being a "black jew", do you mean you're an actual "Jew", as in related to the Ashkenazi Jews, or you're a descendant of the Hebrew Israelites? Or do you actually practice the teachings of Judaism? Judaism is a religion, while Israelite is a national heritage... I'm a descendant of the Hebrews as well, but I'm not a Jew, I'm a muslim/submitter... )
Actual jew my whole family practices judaism pretty much I'm only submitter in my family..now that I read quran I don't worry so much about our "traditions" but my family is highly religious
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Actual jew my whole family practices judaism pretty much I'm only submitter in my family..now that I read quran I don't worry so much about our "traditions" but my family is highly religious
I understand exactly what you mean, brother. I have relatives that actually belong to the Israelite tribe in Africa (near Ethiopia). I was raised as a Christian, but many members of my family practice Judaism (with the traditions), and others live directly according to the Torah. They're the actual black Hebrews, though, they're not related to the Ashkenazi (white) Jewish people. They speak, read, and write the Hebrew language and everything... And as far as I know, I'm the only submitter in my family as well, even though a few of my relatives agree with most of the Quranic teachings...