Question regarding transsexualism in the Quran

[clashncruz]

Assalamu Alaykum all,

What an interesting topic, and I am glad you have re touched upon this issue Sinem.

While I disagree with giving children drugs to inhibit natural developmental processes as was discussed in this thread a number of years back, I respect your good intentions Aisha; it would be great to hear an update by the way

Sinem, you should follow what God has guided you to. I am also a Westerner, born and bred by Atheists, but listening to the Qur'an was all I needed to convince me of God's existence. Don't feel worried about the "muslim" community; your relationship with God is personal, that is the whole idea with Islam. Many Muslims will try to tell you, Islam is about community, the Ummah, etc. While this is true to an extent, Islam actually just means "peaceful submission to God".

In my opinion, part of that "peaceful submission" is accepting who we are good, bad, and ugly. I do not like everything about myself, trust me; we all have things we need to make better. Always remember, "God does not burden a soul with more than it can bear"; this verse always helps me through my challenges. Consider it a blessing from The God that considers you strong enough for such a difficult social/physical/psychological challenge.

I do not understand much about gender issues from a Gender Studies perspective, but I can confirm what others have said on this forum. BPA and Soy Products inhibit the uptake of testosterone in males and has caused a massive population of young boys to become effeminate. Just search this in the many scientific journals and you will find it.

This does not mean I am against homosexuals or trans people, in fact being from California, I know many of these individuals personally, and count some among my friends; I am simply trying to explain some of the environmental contamination that could be fueling this issue.

As far as I understand in the Qur'an God created two sexes, male and female; I understand this to be a biological and anatomical explanation. Indeed, we consider physically-born hermaphrodites as anomalies. Gender is a much more difficult issue because of, as you mentioned, all the gender stereotypes of each culture. For example, when Muslims first arrived in Spain (Al-Andalus) 700 A.D., they had cut, short hair, like modern European men; this, while the European men had long flowing hair, similar to women today. Indeed, these minute and, as you said "shallow", attributions to gender are less discussed in the Qur'an, and it makes sense considering that many are culturally and time-period based.

Follow your heart, God will not lead you astray.

Now, to quote from the Qur'an

921 By the Night as it conceals (the light);
922 By the Day as it appears in glory;
923 By (the mystery of) the creation of male and female;-
924 Verily, (the ends) ye strive for are diverse.
925 So he who gives (in charity) and fears (Allah),
926 And (in all sincerity) testifies to the best,-
927 We will indeed make smooth for him the path to Bliss.
928 But he who is a greedy miser and thinks himself self-sufficient,
929 And gives the lie to the best,-
9210 We will indeed make smooth for him the path to Misery;
9211 Nor will his wealth profit him when he falls headlong (into the Pit).
9212 Verily We take upon Ourselves to guide,
9213 And verily unto Us (belong) the End and the Beginning.
9214 Therefore do I warn you of a Fire blazing fiercely;
9215 None shall reach it but those most unfortunate ones
9216 Who give the lie to Truth and turn their backs.
9217 But those most devoted to Allah shall be removed far from it,-
9218 Those who spend their wealth for increase in self-purification,
9219 And have in their minds no favour from anyone for which a reward is expected in return,
9220 But only the desire to seek for the Countenance of their Lord Most High;
9221 And soon will they attain (complete) satisfaction.

Salaam,

Clash

[NielsJacob]

Peace Sinem and all

Thanks for bringing your view and this tread in to the daylight.

I just read all and were stunned on how many people have tendencies to press their own view over the head of others.
Its like many fell that debate is to be against and point out where the other person are wrong.
Some even quote the Quran to like hit someone in the head and claim that they should be disbelivers if they dont agree with their view.
i was just wandering Why all that hate and ignorence. When God tells you to do good deeds.
1031 By time.
1032 Man is indeed in loss.
1033 Except those who believe, and do good works, and support one another with the truth, and support one another with perseverance.

I admire persons like you and Aisha who have the guts to share their controversial storys.
I like the view you bring forth that the life is a test. But you doesn?t necessarily all the time need to be "not accepted" for doing good in that test. Please let somebody sometime accept/respect you.
If God created you and also led you too him. Then I think you have nothing too fear about (except judgementday )
Cause God only give the faith to the persons he want. Only the one who should go to heaven.(portentially)
1099 And had your Lord willed, all the people on the earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?

And you need to be a believer if you should have chance of going to heaven
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

But what I most of all wanted to high lite was the lack of relevant quotes in this matter (transsexual)
Many claiming that there are nothing about it in Quran.

But this verse come to my mind5149 And of everything We created a pair, perhaps you may remember.

But what in the first look like that everything have to be either male or female aint that certian.

Because when we look on how sex are described (in plants) we see

2053 The One who made for you the earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it pairs of vegetation of all types.
But vegetation comes not just like strict male or female. There are all kinds of variations. And they even choose their gender due to their life situation. Or have more than one gender.

But still the definition is that they are in pair.(Quran)
https//books.google.com.gh/books?id=JrToCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=numbers+of+genders+in+plants&source=bl&ots=FCdRu7NIHh&sig=egI3BZTU-XHmvL6IKZ3NPGCkvQU&hl=da&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipmrKGxofLAhVLsxQKHVsXC-UQ6AEILDAC#v=onepage&q=numbers%20of%20genders%20in%20plants&f=false
(Hmm that was a long link)
But still the definition is that they are in pair.(Quran)

So my understanding is like If its allowed in the nature (plants dont have a free will, and therefore they only act like God created or programmed them); then why shouldn't it be for human also!

But.. My understanding is only my own interpreation. And I have to rely on others translation.. So please take it only for that and no more.
May God bless you and lead you the right way..

[fye]

question
was mary a transexual or did the dust that impreganated her come from outside of her?

she was always in the house and brought food by angels but isn't it common for women at her time to not leave their homes until they were married?
and a man appeared before her in all respects (which i see as a nude man yet it was an angel)
not ot sound like a complete perve but was she masturbating when she became pregenant i don't see it in any other biological way that she could recieve seed if the seed did not have fluid to travel with?

can you post some graphs and picture charts of trans-sexual body formations? nothing to "graphic" just a chart showing where everything is at. it will be easier with some science to understand rules applying to these people which i heard are individually not the same in formation.

[huruf]

Peace Sinem and all

Thanks for bringing your view and this tread in to the daylight.

I just read all and were stunned on how many people have tendencies to press their own view over the head of others.
Its like many fell that debate is to be against and point out where the other person are wrong.
Some even quote the Quran to like hit someone in the head and claim that they should be disbelivers if they dont agree with their view.
i was just wandering Why all that hate and ignorence. When God tells you to do good deeds.
1031 By time.
1032 Man is indeed in loss.
1033 Except those who believe, and do good works, and support one another with the truth, and support one another with perseverance.

I admire persons like you and Aisha who have the guts to share their controversial storys.
I like the view you bring forth that the life is a test. But you doesn?t necessarily all the time need to be "not accepted" for doing good in that test. Please let somebody sometime accept/respect you. ) )
If God created you and also led you too him. Then I think you have nothing too fear about (except judgementday ))
Cause God only give the faith to the persons he want. Only the one who should go to heaven.(portentially)
1099 And had your Lord willed, all the people on the earth in their entirety would have believed. Would you force the people to make them believe?

And you need to be a believer if you should have chance of going to heaven
262 Surely those who believe; and those who are Jewish, and the Nazarenes, and the Sabians, whoever of them believes in God and the Last Day and does good works; they will have their recompense with their Lord, and there is no fear upon them, nor will they grieve.

But what I most of all wanted to high lite was the lack of relevant quotes in this matter (transsexual)
Many claiming that there are nothing about it in Quran.

But this verse come to my mind5149 And of everything We created a pair, perhaps you may remember.

But what in the first look like that everything have to be either male or female aint that certian.

Because when we look on how sex are described (in plants) we see

2053 The One who made for you the earth habitable and He made ways for you in it, and He brought down water from the sky, so We brought out with it pairs of vegetation of all types.
But vegetation comes not just like strict male or female. There are all kinds of variations. And they even choose their gender due to their life situation. Or have more than one gender.

But still the definition is that they are in pair.(Quran)
https//books.google.com.gh/books?id=JrToCAAAQBAJ&pg=PA9&lpg=PA9&dq=numbers+of+genders+in+plants&source=bl&ots=FCdRu7NIHh&sig=egI3BZTU-XHmvL6IKZ3NPGCkvQU&hl=da&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwipmrKGxofLAhVLsxQKHVsXC-UQ6AEILDAC#v=onepage&q=numbers%20of%20genders%20in%20plants&f=false
(Hmm that was a long link)
But still the definition is that they are in pair.(Quran)

So my understanding is like If its allowed in the nature (plants dont have a free will, and therefore they only act like God created or programmed them); then why shouldn't it be for human also!

But.. My understanding is only my own interpreation. And I have to rely on others translation.. So please take it only for that and no more.
May God bless you and lead you the right way..

Mammals, all individuals have boh sex organs masculine a feminine. Male haee tits although they do not devlopand women have the undeveloped organ male.

In 4.1 and other aya we are told that there was a single being (nafs) and from it it created its mate. People have picked the bible story and made it into one sex being the first sex and then the other. But to judge from hte mammals, humans included. It is more logical to take the Qur'an litterally, your mate, whether you are male or female is from that ingle being, where all the sex characters existed and from it came he being which developed ony a set of thoe sex organs. half of them developed some organs and were called females and th other hand developed some organs and were called males. but the spring froom the basic being which had all the organs in it.

Salaam

[NielsJacob]

Peace huruf

Mammals, all individuals have boh sex organs masculine a feminine. Male haee tits although they do not devlopand women have the undeveloped organ male.

In 4.1 and other aya we are told that there was a single being (nafs) and from it it created its mate. People have picked the bible story and made it into one sex being the first sex and then the other. But to judge from hte mammals, humans included. It is more logical to take the Qur'an litterally, your mate, whether you are male or female is from that ingle being, where all the sex characters existed and from it came he being which developed ony a set of thoe sex organs. half of them developed some organs and were called females and th other hand developed some organs and were called males. but the spring froom the basic being which had all the organs in it.

Salaam

I try to understand you.
But why wouldn?t the first one then not have been a male? When the mate is created?
If I follow your understanding then the first being couldn?t have had a mate... But the later creations yes.

[huruf]

The "excision" created automatically two versions. This is verified in the development of the human embryo it is not male or female from the start but the development of the feminine or masculine characteristics does not start before a few weeks. o, e verify ttoo even in present existence that from a single being develops its partner, because potentially the embryo male and female bfore it develops a et of characterisstics but doe not develop the other set which remain there but underdveloped.

Salaam

[HP_TECH]

Peace,

I feel like I should say a few things. Aisha that's brave of you to share your personal life with strangers on the Internet, seeking advice about what actions to take. It seems although to me that you already had a set perspective though for how to approach your situation.

Were you truly seeking advice in order to comply with Allah's commandments or were you seeking support for your preconceived stance?
Are you truly willing to submit to Allah's will concerning this situation of yours regardless of what you or your child are hoping for?

What I mean is if I gave you evidence from the Quran that proceeding with hormone therapy and sex change were wrong. What if I told you are committing shirk? Would you submit to Allah's will? Or would you argue with me? Or would you agree to disagree and follow your way anyway? Or would you label me as a phobic? Or would you seek to disprove me?

3028-32
NO CHANGE in the creation of Allah

He sets forth to you an example from yourselves. Is for you among what possess your right hands any partners in what We have provided you so you in it (are) equal, you fear them as you fear yourselves? Thus We explain the Verses for a people (who) use reason.
Nay, follow those who do wrong, their desires, without knowledge. Then who (can) guide (one) whom Allah has let go astray? And not for them any helpers.
So set your face to the religion upright. Nature (made by) Allah (upon) which He has created mankind . No change (should there be) in the creation (of) Allah. That (is) the religion the correct, but most men (do) not know.
Turning to Him, and fear Him and establish the prayer and (do) not be of the polytheists
Of those who divide their religion and become sects, each party in what they have rejoicing.

6414-15
O you who believe! Indeed, from your spouses and your children (are) enemies to you, so beware of them. But if you pardon and overlook and forgive, then indeed, Allah (is) Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Consider surah 18.

1874-75
Then they both set out until when they met a boy, then he killed him. He said, "Have you killed a soul, pure, for other than a soul? Certainly, you have done a thing evil."
He said, "Did not I say to you that you, never will be able with me (to have) patience?"
1880-81
And as for the boy his parents were believers, and we feared that he would overburden them (by) transgression and disbelief.
So we intended that would change for them their Lord, a better than him (in) purity and nearer (in) affection.

924 Say, "If are your fathers, and your sons, and your brothers, and your spouses, and your relatives, and wealth that you have acquired and the commerce, you fear a decline (in) it and the dwellings you delight (in) it (are) more beloved to you than Allah, and His Messenger and striving in His way, then wait until Allah brings His Command. And Allah (does) not guide the people - the defiantly disobedient."

Sometimes people want to be good parents and think that being a good parents is giving all their love to their child, so they love their (wealth/) children with love immense? but good parenting is remaining firm knowing when to say NO and remembering that you should not exceed in your love for anything or anyone other than Allah.
A lot of parents now a days are just rushing to accommodate their child?s every desire and wish. It is understandable you want to provide for your child and that is right, but you should not exceed the limits of the deen for that reason. Do you love your child more than Allah?
If your child asked you for a gun and threw fits and tantrum would you equip your child with that which may harm you both?
So why have you not tried to remain firm rather and remind your child to be grateful.
Why are you not grateful?that he was born a healthy child, not blind, not lame, nor deaf nor sick. Grateful that he was born however Allah designed him. Do you reject this favor?
Which of the favors of your Lord will you deny?

There is no change in His Creation whatsoever. Whether is GMOs which are destroying natural habitats and indigenous competitors, mutilation of cattle or of ourselves(circumcision, sex-change)

The homosexual argument is very valid here.

Because of the reprimanding they received for approaching other men with lust.

Allah has created man and woman for each other.

That is His favor upon man a spouse created and designed by the Most Gracious especially for you. We are made in pairs and we are given our nature according to His deen

It is furthermore a Sign, the love and affection, He has put between men and women

When we follow the deen as it is established and pair with what our Lord has blessed us with, the union produces more life, viable offspring.
When we transgress in the deen and follow our own desire and reject this favor the result is no offspring no propagation of generation, high risk of STDs and HIVs.

These are just examples but the rejecting of the favor itself is the worst of results.

The people of Lut were in 26165-166 admonished

The reprimanding was for leaving off what Allah created for them of the mates.
That alone was a grave transgression.

So will your child leave off what created Allah for him of his own body and furthermore seek to change the creation of Allah?

Just like you cannot force disbelievers to adhere to deen and believe you cannot force a child who is supported by the media, doctors and his parents to adhere to the deen the system of truth set up by Allah.
You cannot force disbelievers to believe, but you can keep inviting them to the deen of Allah.

As a parent you should seek to protect and guide your family to the right waynnot mislead them.

666 O you who believe! Protect yourselves and your families (from) a Fire whose fuel (is) people and stones, over it (are) Angels stern, severe; not they disobey Allah (in) what He Commands them but they do what they are commanded.

So protect your child and advise him as Luqman advised his son and be a leader for the righteous.

Your child might want or love something that is not good for him and despise something that is good for him.

Even if he feels effeminate it does not suffice you should mend his nature given by Allah to suit his pleasures and desires.
Again you cannot force him to be normal or adhere to the deen even. But it does not mean you should support him in this as you clearly have.
Stand firm if you have submitted as you say

He is still 16 there are 2 years to go until he makes his own decision, what will you do?

[imrankhawaja]

@ aisha

all the time she was asking is there is anything in quran that will help her understanding the position of her girl/boy.

I dnt think so she is active on this forum anymore , I wish she will read my post and it will help her,

Allah created everything in pair (male female, negative positive, body soul, light and dark, night and day) 36. 36
chapter number and verse number is in pair as well,,,

and i want to share anyother verse from quran which will make answer more clear regarding gender confusion

But when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, I have delivered a female." And Allah was most knowing of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female. And I have named her Mary 3 36

numerology sometimes work for me lol just kidding but both verses which i share see the patern of numbering what i think may be these are indication for the people who got mental illness of being girl or boy...

as far i believe Allah perfected everything and sister aisha got a boy with some mental illness and lot of love from mother side and when her granma try to rectify her she become rude with her..

she did two mistakes (being rude with the grandmother of kid on the time she give him slap i m sure the boy never said again i m girl but she supported himm and he got code of getting work from mom)
2 supporting the lies regarding biology and telling to a boy she is girl

in light of these the result of god will not comes in favorable way untill she will repent and ask forgivness from kids grandma .test and punishment are two different things ,,its a punishment not a test punishment of being rude with the grandma and supporting lies , against scripture which is clearly saying everything is in pair.

[Sinem]

Hey there. I haven't been here in a while. My excuses for that.

Whilst a lot of you people tell 'don't change the creation of Allah', can they say that they never change a single thing in this creation? I don't think any of you can say that. God deliberately created human as a species who is capable of manipulating their environment.
In my view there's 2 possible ways of manipulating environment 1) for selfish reasons (guess that's the devil seducing you to stray of the right path) 2) to create something others would benefit from, so the exact opposite of selfishness.
Transexuality or homosexuality is not per defenition a selfish decision. I've been told a lot that i have to do 'what is best for myself', but 'for myself' doesn't work for me as a motivation. I do not want to cause harm, and therefore i prefer to keep communicating until the other party understands that indeed no harm is caused towards them. Situations like a family saying you put shame on them is in fact a selfish thing to say from your family. The family puts themselves to shame by not being open for dialoge. Everything in the world stands or falls with dialogue and open-mindedness. Closed-mindedness and conservativism are some of the most selfish things one can stand for.
'shame' can never be used as an excuse. However, one should also not just ignore those who claim that, run away and do their own thing without ever looking back (unless if being forced to do so), because that's just and endless cycle. If neither the family, nor the trans/gay person is willing to communicate, then neither are doing the right thing.
If silence is gold, then speaking is priceless. Sharing opinions and being open for alternative interpretations is constructive towards everyone involved. Literal interpreations and pushing your opinion upon others is destructive. If your interpretation of the Quran is destructive, you're defenitely reading it wrong, because it's meant to be constructive. We're supposed to be helping each other, not fight each other.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not saying those verses are nonsense, far from it, but the Quran is not the complete word of God. A big part of the word is written in every human heart itself. It's the personal bond between God and human, which can not be simply put in a book, but is taught by God to every individual personally. (at least those individuals who are open to it) It might not be mentioned in these exact words, but i don't think many will disagree. Don't let the book (or antything else) close you of from your personal bond to God. You need your personal bond to understand the book. It is defenitely not meant to literally copy, but meant to use in combination with your personal context. (please don't put my words out of their context here)
So far, everything i read seems to confirm that what i'm feeling is the right thing to do. Whilst before being open to Islam, i had a lot more doubts about that. If anyone tries to claim that my personal connection to God is the word of the Devil, then you're insulting and underestimating my God.
I'd say as long as you don'treally harm others, you should be free to do most of the things you want to (of course being realistic in your desires). Of course a lot of people will claim they get harmed by your actions, just for their own selfish reasons. Also often to mask their own shortcomings in dealing with situations. Don't fall for the deception of a powerful person who plays the victim.
Will i listen to what my family/partner has to say? Yes. Will i disobey them when they're being selfish? Yes i will.

I find the last two comments not really relevant to this discussion, to be honest. They literally say nothing. Except that there are only male and female, but they do not define what male and female mean, whilst we are scientifically 100% sure that this division is more complex than just how the body appears to be outward. You have to keep in mind that in the prophets time, there were no things like neuroscience, DNA-analys or even data. So he would not be able to explain that stuff towards the people in the words we use today. I'm sure those scientific theories are in the book one way or the other, though. Just not in the same wordings that we use today.

I would like to add another thing please do not confuse transsexuals by those who falsely claim to be transsexuals, just for their own benefit.

Though the fact remains there is literally not a single part of the Quran that says transsexuality or homosexuality is wrong. I've read trough a few online discussions about that, and the end result is that many who claim the Quran proves these things are wrong, fail to come up with verses that prove their own point (not even by troll logic). It just proves these people know a lot of verses (which seems to be a kind of prestige to be able to quote the most verses out of their head, which in my humble opinion is insulting the Quran, especially considering their irrelevancy to the subject), but don't really even seem to do any serious effort to justify their transphobia/homophobia. Probably because they know they aren't able to justify something that is not considered wrong by their religion, and are stuck to quoting verses who have a vague resemblance (but only very vague) The objective conclusion of these discussions is always that the Quran is totally neutral upon these issues.

A lot of people then use the story of Lot, but the connection to homosexuality has also been disproven many times (the conclusion seems to be that this story is about rape in general. Indeed including men, but never specifically about men) Whilst a few other verses in the Quran seem to confirm that Mohammed (pbuh) seems to be familiar with some trans or gay people, but his opinion about them is about their personality, and not once is referred to their gay/trans identity itself being a problem.

Peace be upon those who really desire peace.

[imrankhawaja]

A lot of people then use the story of Lot, but the connection to homosexuality has also been disproven many times (the conclusion seems to be that this story is about rape in general. Indeed including men, but never specifically about men) Whilst a few other verses in the Quran seem to confirm that Mohammed (pbuh) seems to be familiar with some trans or gay people, but his opinion about them is about their personality, and not once is referred to their gay/trans identity itself being a problem.

Peace be upon those who really desire peace.

peace and good to see you sister,

actually quran does not support homosexulity, but if something is not in black and white it does not mean u can do it,
these are just my findings, and anybody can deny it, but what we need to do, look for evidence in the shape of reference.

i could not recall any event in quran that give permission of homo.

peace and take care sorry if from my comments if u feel bad dnt take anything personal my motif was to give opinions in the light of logic ,

[Comrox]

Oh, no, not the homosexuality argument again...

[Sinem]

Greetings.

First of all i'd like to apologise to saying that some people don't do any effort, because in fact, i do know know if they did or not.

Now about your reaction it does defenitely not support it. Neither does it condemn it. It is neutral. So people following the book should be neutral about it, and judge about the wether or not the person in case has evil intentions for doing it, but not for doing it in itself. (just like with many sins, they have to be put in their context)

And about the soy argument gender-diversity and different sexualities have always been there, in almost each and every culture. Though in thinly populated cultures like the classic Arabian age, it was rare, so not considered of much relevance. Thing is that our population is growing massively to the point of overpopulation. Besides, all linked articles do really sound like scams science. Though that soy thing might be a signficant catalyst, it's in no way to blame for the existance of diversity between humans.

From a standpoint of evolution, then homosexuality and transsexuality are a perfect answer to overpopulation. If it happens in other animals, it happens for a reason. Those reasons are either protecting the species against underpopulation or against overpopulation (as overpopulation will lead to extinction too). Now evolution is God. It's Gods plan for the universe, which none of our humans knows until it happens.

None of you should be obliged to support us. But if you truly value the word of God, you should also 'let us be'. Telling your opinion is totally okay. But punishing us isn't. Please don't say 'you are wrong'. Please instead say 'i think you are wrong'.

And @comrox, inevitably, this will be an eternal struggle, as long as God creates homosexuals and transsexuals, they will try to get into dialoge because they want to be recognised as a creation of God. Why does he creates them? That's his decision. He will have a reason for it, and if you ever have the chance to meet him, he will tell the reason why he makes people like that. He has a path for everyone, and for some people, that path is unusual, whilst for other people, that path is very normal. Also the way people act around those who they meet is part of God's plan, as he wants you to meet these people, and wants you to get into discussions. But what he expects you do to is a mystery for us. We can only use logic. Though i might be using 'female logic which according to men is flawed anyway'.

[imrankhawaja]

@ sinem or aisha whatever you name sister, peace.

now i can understand what you feel and how you feel , in all this its not your mistake , personally i knnow lot of boys who is suffering the same problem, naturally they didnot attract towards opposite sex. on this basis they have full right of representing their rights and dialouge between everybody , society , religion,

america britan scandiavian they even approve the law of same sex marriages , due to lot of disturbance between same sex couples , annyway our subject is whether in the light of quran.

actually God will decide and punish everybody according to the knowledge he/she have in whatesoever manner.with just regarding circumstances and power of an individual, let say

if accidently somebody get killed from you, its different
if you kill somebody due to jealousy,envy,money . its murder
if you kill somebody in self defence. its not a murder,

same in your case what i analyse is,

if a normal male make a relation with normal male its illogical and can be breach the boundries of limit, but people still doing it ,

but in the case of gender confusion somebody consider himslef/herself female(x) and then make a relation with male(Y), its different scenerio, now the point here is the male(y) who made a relation with female(X) its unnatural becoz atleast the male(y) knows its not opposite sex, one of them must be doing something not accidently by planningly.

in third case , if a female consider himself male, and male consider himself female , its comes to mental health isssues and on that basis if they make a relatiosnhip there is no sin upon them.

did you see i m not saying your son is faulty or he have to punish and so on, trust me , the one who creates your son its allah and God will decide how to judge between people, if somebody born with a fault of gender its not his/her mistake. i cant say its the mistake of allah , i cant even say what is the mechansim of gender science. but what i get from the reading of quran its states that its male and female partners who are in marriage are allowed to physical with eachother , rest of the things i dnt want to comment ,

and about lot its the only case of homosexulity find in quran,

before stating anything lem me clear some things from this event ,
their major crimes,
1 sex with same partner
2 murder and robbery and rape
3 did not consider these things as sin( its mean they already know its wrong but dnt want to change).

in light of all this God planned a punishment for them which was unavoidable even abraham try to ask God about the delay in punishment. but when Allah decide punishment its something we need to ponder they were commiting gross sins thats why punishment of God due on them, what was their major

last two things 2 and 3 they are common in every nation almost still it happen , but about the first crime it was something new people may did it before but not openly , the nation of lot did this openly and once lot adress them like that,

what happen with you guys, you are doing such a evil which nobody on the planet of earth did before are you not afraid of God punishment

on the contraray the nation keep an eye on angels who come in the shape of human. there lot offered his daughters(nation girls) but they clearly said to lot you know we are not interested in girls.

from above two things its clearly understood that two normal males cannot make a relation if they make it , allah is not happy with them. and one nation is destroyed already due too this crime.

we can discuss more . and dnt worry no body will stop you to put you claim infront of everybody , we learn from eachother. its better to share and think about ideas instead of being alone.

peace and take care

[Sinem]

Hm, one thing i'd like to add though, and that is that they are not 'mentall illness' but 'physical illness'. It's not the soul that needs fixing, because the soul is eternal and can not be fixed/can only get fixed by God himself.
It is not right to try to adapt the soul to the body. It is right to try to adapt the body to the soul, though. (but one should not rush into such things, as i've repeatedly said, because getting to know one's own soul enough to understand it does take many years)
Additional body modifications (plastic surgery) is also a controversial point, on which my opinion is that if it is done as defense towards people who would harm them, it is justified, but if it is done for astethic reasons, it is wrong. (trying to look realistic vs. trying to look pretty). Altough looking pretty in asian standars is considered to be a sign of 'working hard'. I'm not sure yet how to judge that though.

Also, i'd like to point out the difference between homosexuality and homoromanticism. The first one is pure sexual attraction, the second is pure emotional attraction. Does someone base their choices on sexual attraction (or similarly even more shallow things like money or politics), then it is a sin (this is also true for heterosexuals, bisexuals, asexuals, etc.) does someone base their choices on emotional attraction, it is never a sin. A soul falling in love with another soul is the most beautiful thing there is.
For example i don't feel sexually attracted to my girlfriend (who is aware of my gender issues, and rather supportive about it), but i do feel an enormous emotional attraction. I don't see this as a sin for either her or me. It's not a lie either, because 1) i'm totally honest about everything towards her and 2) my emotional attraction is very real.

I think i've stated before that 'having sex just for the sake of having sex' is a wrong thing, and any relationship based on that is a sin, no matter if it is heterosexual or homosexual.

And i'm not all negative about you guys. So far you've shown to be more open minded and willing to discuss things than the holebi community itself.

[fye]

Question you chose a girl as a mate and you speak of souls.
What do you small like is it a womens scent or a male's?
What's coming out of your pores defines a but of who you are
Maybe you are not sexually inclined to your girlfriend because of emotional reasons like having everything need I in a companion from simply being around her again a chemical is being pumped out of her pores.
You should never ignore the physical chemicals bio-chems or artifice chems.
You choose her can you choose her again blindfolded?
Please examine the chemical side of your soul theory and more the story of prophet Joseph when woman tried to pull him away from his "true self"
The part if him that "wouldn't do a thing like that"
It was only a matter of time before these women would get the idea to chemically attract Joseph to them
So ALLAH places him in jail for a time.

Being both make and female I'm sure you struggle with what to tell people but hopefully your done with those high school-ish days. You are who you are and want what you want, one helps you define the other maybe you just want peace of mind not to prove anything to anyone like everyone should. When it comes to instinct it's your eyes you want to avoid using if being with a guy seems gay to you then maybe your just a guy. The male is usually the dominant and stronger in DNA and genetics and even in language. Does any of this help with the way you see yourself?
Also the not wanting sexual relations with women is caused more by mental abuse from confused people trying to dictate your life. I'm sure you try to but there's this whole board on a fullcrum where you have to break the fullcrum and not remove the board.
Sex can't have anything to do with proving dad right or wrong and then you probably lose focus and say it's not the right time for me to make this decision.
Don't let anyone mess you up it's ALLAH who you should be on that balance for.
Peace

[Sinem]

Well, i'll explain more on that. The relationship started in a phase of denial. More or less in a last effort to prove i'm male. But i only went ahead with it because she was able to understand my feminin sides. I've talked to many many girls over summer and it all felt wrong, so i choose her because she was clearly different. Don't know, maybe she's mentally less female than others?

I do enjoy being physically with her, except sexually. But i don't think that would be different when being with a man. All things seem to suggest that i'm asexual when it comes to physical attraction and bisexual when it comes to mental attraction. Meaning that it's the personality i care about, not the sex. As long as i'm not forced in the male gender role, that's fine by me. I defenitely would feel better with being in a full female gender role, but i think it's good enough as it is with her. After all, i've talked to so many people in the past that i understand how rare it is to find someone i can have an emotional click with, considering my personality is extemely complex.

I've never been abused in my life and have no sexual traumas. I sexually just never felt as a man and always had the feeling that i should have been the woman instead.
Being with a guy doesnt seem gay to me, though. But it's been taking me almost 30 years to even consider the possiblity that i might be attracted to them. It's a possibility. And yes, in my fantasy, i usually prefer men. But one should never confuse fantasy with what someone really wants or needs. (altouhg lot of people aren't emotionally stable enough to see the difference) Besides, i don't need to fantasize about my GF, because she's real.
I for sure hate being dominant. The natural thing for me is feeling equal. I always hated doing things alone. And society here is one that forces you to do everything alone. Which is just unnatural to me.

The only right thing i can do is being totally honest with my girlfriend, and that's what i'm doing. And being honest to everyone involved. Only by being open about it, i can find my right path. Even if that means getting hurt or getting ridiculed.

[huruf]

I don't really know wht is the interet in puttig avery perso into boxes ad say these are the homos, these are the issies, these arethe viragos, these are the male haters these are...

The fact is that each person is her own, her own genetic self and her own evolution of tht genetic self and that the mania of socity of havig by all means every persn fitted into one of he boxes condemns many peole to suffering for feeling abnormal, a misfit, somethinng she should not be.

Of course there are asexuals, why houldn't there be. Just as there are eople who have a very weak sense of smell ornot very gregarious. So what there are many other that are gregarious to compensate. And then there arethose who constantly hammer that wome are these and menn are that as a univerfsal rule, even though that universal ruly is only achieved i imagination and tht the attemppt to make it intothe real existence harms many people who do not fit in it, cannot it in it and do not want to fit i it so that those who push for such unifeormation of humanity ca feel vndicatedand selfsatisfied.

Salaam

[Comrox]

None of you should be obliged to support us. But if you truly value the word of God, you should also 'let us be'. Telling your opinion is totally okay. But punishing us isn't. Please don't say 'you are wrong'. Please instead say 'i think you are wrong'.

And @comrox, inevitably, this will be an eternal struggle, as long as God creates homosexuals and transsexuals, they will try to get into dialoge because they want to be recognised as a creation of God. Why does he creates them? That's his decision. He will have a reason for it, and if you ever have the chance to meet him, he will tell the reason why he makes people like that. He has a path for everyone, and for some people, that path is unusual, whilst for other people, that path is very normal. Also the way people act around those who they meet is part of God's plan, as he wants you to meet these people, and wants you to get into discussions. But what he expects you do to is a mystery for us. We can only use logic. Though i might be using 'female logic which according to men is flawed anyway'.

I don't really know wht is the interet in puttig avery perso into boxes ad say these are the homos, these are the issies, these arethe viragos, these are the male haters these are...

The fact is that each person is her own, her own genetic self and her own evolution of tht genetic self and that the mania of socity of havig by all means every persn fitted into one of he boxes condemns many peole to suffering for feeling abnormal, a misfit, somethinng she should not be.

Of course there are asexuals, why houldn't there be. Just as there are eople who have a very weak sense of smell ornot very gregarious. So what there are many other that are gregarious to compensate. And then there arethose who constantly hammer that wome are these and menn are that as a univerfsal rule, even though that universal ruly is only achieved i imagination and tht the attemppt to make it intothe real existence harms many people who do not fit in it, cannot it in it and do not want to fit i it so that those who push for such unifeormation of humanity ca feel vndicatedand selfsatisfied.

Salaam

bravo

We all have our own paths to lead. Wherever they lead, they must be our own.

[huruf]

bravo

We all have our own paths to lead. Wherever they lead, they must be our own.

Indeed, and there is so much interet in deriving rules from the Qur'n but we rarely contemplte the Qur'an from he point of view of how much width and depth of fredom it leaves to people to be themselves with just the limits it sets without deducing fantsies from the own views or he societal views of the moment. And the limits the Qur'an sets, just like the limits acknowledged by the bet in societies and the best societies are those minimally necessary to avoid that ome peole imose on others on whatever account.

We sould really xamie the Qur'an for seeing those things that we take for gratd but for which the Qur'an does nto vouch at all and the injuctions to keep from gossiping, indiscretion and slandering. The Qur'an give as plenty of room, why do we make so may efforts to restrict that roomand make it smaller?

Whe we restrict the individual room by any means or for whatever reaso we ar giving ouselves into the power fo the mobs, the mobs being fromthe government to the rule of the majority or the media or any power other than God, God who manifests trhough our own conscience, our fitra. And we do have the ower and the right to make mistakes and also to correct and redress mistakes without that being an acknowledgemet of any worldly poer or authority.

Salaam

[Yosemite]

Greetings.

First of all i'd like to apologise to saying that some people don't do any effort, because in fact, i do know know if they did or not.

Now about your reaction it does defenitely not support it. Neither does it condemn it. It is neutral. So people following the book should be neutral about it, and judge about the wether or not the person in case has evil intentions for doing it, but not for doing it in itself. (just like with many sins, they have to be put in their context)

And about the soy argument gender-diversity and different sexualities have always been there, in almost each and every culture. Though in thinly populated cultures like the classic Arabian age, it was rare, so not considered of much relevance. Thing is that our population is growing massively to the point of overpopulation. Besides, all linked articles do really sound like scams science. Though that soy thing might be a signficant catalyst, it's in no way to blame for the existance of diversity between humans.

From a standpoint of evolution, then homosexuality and transsexuality are a perfect answer to overpopulation. If it happens in other animals, it happens for a reason. Those reasons are either protecting the species against underpopulation or against overpopulation (as overpopulation will lead to extinction too). Now evolution is God. It's Gods plan for the universe, which none of our humans knows until it happens.

None of you should be obliged to support us. But if you truly value the word of God, you should also 'let us be'. Telling your opinion is totally okay. But punishing us isn't. Please don't say 'you are wrong'. Please instead say 'i think you are wrong'.

And @comrox, inevitably, this will be an eternal struggle, as long as God creates homosexuals and transsexuals, they will try to get into dialoge because they want to be recognised as a creation of God. Why does he creates them? That's his decision. He will have a reason for it, and if you ever have the chance to meet him, he will tell the reason why he makes people like that. He has a path for everyone, and for some people, that path is unusual, whilst for other people, that path is very normal. Also the way people act around those who they meet is part of God's plan, as he wants you to meet these people, and wants you to get into discussions. But what he expects you do to is a mystery for us. We can only use logic. Though i might be using 'female logic which according to men is flawed anyway'.

"different" sexualities and "gender diversity" is a meme

the fact is this the vast majority of the people born on earth are either male or female, and only an infinitesimal portion is NOT that

it's all about statistics

we can't change society as if transexuality was the norm or as if homosexuality was the norm, and in the west, they are changing their societies as if homosexuald, transexuality, and other such abnormalities were the norm