Question regarding transsexualism in the Quran
-
"different" sexualities and "gender diversity" is a meme
the fact is this the vast majority of the people born on earth are either male or female, and only an infinitesimal portion is NOT that
it's all about statistics
we can't change society as if transexuality was the norm or as if homosexuality was the norm, and in the west, they are changing their societies as if homosexuald, transexuality, and other such abnormalities were the norm
I know i shouldnt respond to trolls. But i'm friendly, so i will reply.
It's obviously not a meme. If it were a meme, it would be a new thing, popularised by the internet. But if you had some knowledge about it you'd see it clearly isn't. Internet just makes them more visible. No-one ever has claimed to be trans or gay because it's a fashionist thing.
The reason people like us are rising in numbers is not because internet popularises it. It's because a lot has not been registrated in the past, and therefore, present-day statistics are more reliable. (besides, archeology seems to suggest it's always been there and it's always been a relatively normal thing. Though generally not accepted, it's always been there)Not exactly what's happening here in the west though. Society is still rather heteronormative and people not fitting into the binary still don't have a lot of rights.
It is also a statistic that people not fitting into heteronormativity or cisgender are significant in number and my estimations are that they are around 50-75%. That is of course including people who aren't far from the cisgender heteronormative, but are distinct enough to consider them different. (mostly making up bisexual, bigendered, asexual and agendered people) Whilst homosexuality and the transgender spectrum are estimated to be 5 to 20% of the population. Official statistics will rather say 1 to 5%, but we all know there exist a lot of closeted people and people in denial.
My estimations are that heterosexuality and cisgenders are making up a mere 25 to 50%, so claiming it's the norm is just as ridiculous.It's clear you're underestimating how normal these 'abnormalities' are. Statistics don't mean a lot in some places, because in countries where 'abnormal' people are oppressed, you'll find that the vast majority is hiding it or in denial, therefore the statistics will be low. For example, China is 100% atheist. But nobody really believes that over 1 and a half billion people are all atheist... Whilst in countries where these things are normal (for example Thailand, Philippines, even muslim countries like Indonesia), you see that lot of people are trans/gay and that meeting trans and gay persons is indeed a daily occurence and you're certain to have one in your family. They aren't accepted, but claiming they don't exist is impossible over there.
So unfortunately, your fact is not a fact at all. So thanks for trying to anger me by trolling, but it didn't work, i'm not angry at all.
We can indeed not fully change society to minorities. But society should accomodate for major minories, because they're simply too large to ignore. You can't go claiming the majority of people fit into the cisgender heteronormative idea, because they clearly don't. And the Quran does not claim that either. Because the Quran values scientific research, and therefore scientific breaktroughs will allow you to read the same passages in the Quran in a different light.
Are we the norm? No. Are we normal? Yes.If you have trouble accepting things that aren't even new. Well, then i'm sorry for you, but sooner or later you'll have to accept that some things exist, even if you'd wish they didn't. You can't just simply ignore things you don't understand. You can't extinguish us either. We'll keep coming back. That's how humans were created. If you make a point out of ignoring God's creation, i'm sure God won't exactly feel flattered by that behaviour.
-
I thin that Yosemite puts people in boxes but from the side of the tontestatarians of Yosemite there is also some puttin ginto boxes. I do not doubt that some people are genueinely determined at birth as to their sexual atractions, but, for instance, it is not true that "No-one ever has claimed to be trans or gay because it's a fashionist thing." ot may be claiming it, but out of curiosity in part and out of being not in the norm, which mamny people at certain times like very much to do, that I am sure exists and I hav known them.
It does matter how many people this or that, the very Qur'an says that the majority will lead you astray. Attemptin no to be the majority (run of the mill) for some peopple is a great temptation. There are many reason which are nnot necessarily sexual why a peron may end up changing or choosing something willfully not because by nature he or she is forced to.
The point is that many peoppple, may be most of us are conditionned and there are very few things that are solely "natural". The sentimental, emotional, males who may be like dressing up and show tendencies qualified as feminine, indeendent of ny exual likings have it very difficult and in fact the best part for them traditionally is to turn outright sisies because otherwise they just cannot break their own emotional a psychologial make up to satisfy "society". That is not a choiceor a natural condition but one forced on them because other issues are closed.
Equally, many women turn lesbians simply because males are too much for them to ut up ith and they want a life with less struggle and and more emotional and companionship rewards.
In fact one might think that a portion of same gender attractions are deried from the fact the different gender one are simply too costly in human terms.
What is certain is that the end station of ending up wantig or having a sex companion of different sex or same sex is not reachd necessarily by eery eprson by the same way or for the same reasons. To pretend that it is so would be one more way to box people in.
Salaam
-
It does matter how many people this or that, the very Qur'an says that the majority will lead you astray.
you made a fallacious argument
i may be a minority among a group of LGBT people and they would be the ones leading me astray
im not talking about cults, or organized groups, or sects
i'm talking about a biological facti do not know a chinese person, but i can safely say that, through the empirical research that has happened concerning this subject, the probability that the first chinese person i ever meet is a normal person, not transsexual or not homo, would be a heterosexual cis chinese person
it's a question of mathematics
The point is that many peoppple, may be most of us are conditionned
research shows otherwise
society doesn't condition us to be male or female, real life experiments on children has been made, it was catastrophic, it was a nightmare for the kids, they would be forced to be the sex they are not, and they went through deeply traumatising events
everything is natural, i'm not talking about natural, you're saying i made an appeal to nature which i did not, i said that by observation and through empirical research, the majority of people born on earth (as of now, unless we pollute water sources with estrogen agents or estrogen like agents) are cis heterosexual people
-
The human body has a sex and an identity bound to this body through the flow of hormones. The instinct of the body will be driven by the body's sex.
That does however not account for what decisions one may make detached from the body by their spirit. One can however not escape from the "whispers" (suggestions) of the body with its instinct depending on its sex. In some cases it seems the bodily structure is disturbed and some bodies have an anomalous flow of hormones causing them to possess a deviating sexual orientation. This is not the standard natural orientation.
Instincts can be causing real personality problems and it is hard to resist their call even if one would like to, especially those of the reproduction functionality and intimate adherence to a mate.
I personally think one should abstain from sex whatsoever to more easily handle its calling. Otherwise it is easy to become a slave to the flow of hormones. According to that factor in homosexuality it would be more logical to be detached from the mating completely as intimate homosexual interaction does not lead to reproduction. It is all about physical stimulation and thus primitive pleasure.
But homosexual or not is a preference, just as it is a preference to abstain from copulation at all. I would call it vain and a waste of resources to go through a transgender operation for the sake of pleasing the beast of oneself, but that is my opinion. We have no reason to dislike such people who let have such surgery or think less of them, it is something they themselves choose to do. It would be natural if one would like a "normal" (sterotypical) life according to the instinct to undergo that surgery and I would not blame them if they like to live to indulge. It is easy to fall for the instinct (satan).
Be well
Amenuel -
you made a fallacious argument
i may be a minority among a group of LGBT people and they would be the ones leading me astray
im not talking about cults, or organized groups, or sects
i'm talking about a biological facti do not know a chinese person, but i can safely say that, through the empirical research that has happened concerning this subject, the probability that the first chinese person i ever meet is a normal person, not transsexual or not homo, would be a heterosexual cis chinese person
it's a question of mathematics
research shows otherwise
society doesn't condition us to be male or female, real life experiments on children has been made, it was catastrophic, it was a nightmare for the kids, they would be forced to be the sex they are not, and they went through deeply traumatising events
everything is natural, i'm not talking about natural, you're saying i made an appeal to nature which i did not, i said that by observation and through empirical research, the majority of people born on earth (as of now, unless we pollute water sources with estrogen agents or estrogen like agents) are cis heterosexual people
Yosemite, you have not answered me or anything I said. You did not understand any of it and it is logical since I was not answering you or addressing you at all nor anything that you may have said except as an introduction sayig that which I was not addressing.
So while I have nothing against you putting forward your views as many times as you like, I point clearly out that what you have said has not relation with what I was getting at nor akes it any clearer or more understandable.
Salaam
-
@ Man Of Faith Your post seems to assume that gender dysphoric feelings are driven by instinctual feelings, whilst it's driven by feelings by the soul. It's the male instinctual feelings that cause the dysphoria, the detachement from their own body. No matter how hard you try to contol these instincts or not, if they don't align to your soul, it causes pain to your soul.
A transgender operation has as purpose to try to align the body and their instincts as much as possible to the identity of the soul. Not vice versa.
Doing surgery is not 'giving in to the instinct', it is exactly done to eliminate the instinct. It is exactly resisting those male instincts what causes pain in the soul of a transgender female.
Please understand that transsexuality is not a 'sexual orientation' (therefore i prefer the use of the word transgender), and sexual preference is totally irrelevant to their 'decision' (altough it isn't really a decision, as God made us with this dysphoria, for a reason only he knows)
For the same reason, a few posts ago, i explained the difference between sexual attraction and emotional attraction between people. Homosexuality is also a wrong word (i prefer to say a word like gay) as it implies people are only doing it for sexual reasons, ignoring the fact that a significant part of them does it for emotional reasons. Again it is not a choice, as you can't control your soul. You can only try to control the body, and that's the whole point of the discussion. -
I know i shouldnt respond to trolls. But i'm friendly, so i will reply.
It's obviously not a meme. If it were a meme, it would be a new thing, popularised by the internet. But if you had some knowledge about it you'd see it clearly isn't. Internet just makes them more visible. No-one ever has claimed to be trans or gay because it's a fashionist thing.
The reason people like us are rising in numbers is not because internet popularises it. It's because a lot has not been registrated in the past, and therefore, present-day statistics are more reliable. (besides, archeology seems to suggest it's always been there and it's always been a relatively normal thing. Though generally not accepted, it's always been there)Not exactly what's happening here in the west though. Society is still rather heteronormative and people not fitting into the binary still don't have a lot of rights.
It is also a statistic that people not fitting into heteronormativity or cisgender are significant in number and my estimations are that they are around 50-75%. That is of course including people who aren't far from the cisgender heteronormative, but are distinct enough to consider them different. (mostly making up bisexual, bigendered, asexual and agendered people) Whilst homosexuality and the transgender spectrum are estimated to be 5 to 20% of the population. Official statistics will rather say 1 to 5%, but we all know there exist a lot of closeted people and people in denial.
My estimations are that heterosexuality and cisgenders are making up a mere 25 to 50%, so claiming it's the norm is just as ridiculous.It's clear you're underestimating how normal these 'abnormalities' are. Statistics don't mean a lot in some places, because in countries where 'abnormal' people are oppressed, you'll find that the vast majority is hiding it or in denial, therefore the statistics will be low. For example, China is 100% atheist. But nobody really believes that over 1 and a half billion people are all atheist... Whilst in countries where these things are normal (for example Thailand, Philippines, even muslim countries like Indonesia), you see that lot of people are trans/gay and that meeting trans and gay persons is indeed a daily occurence and you're certain to have one in your family. They aren't accepted, but claiming they don't exist is impossible over there.
So unfortunately, your fact is not a fact at all. So thanks for trying to anger me by trolling, but it didn't work, i'm not angry at all.
We can indeed not fully change society to minorities. But society should accomodate for major minories, because they're simply too large to ignore. You can't go claiming the majority of people fit into the cisgender heteronormative idea, because they clearly don't. And the Quran does not claim that either. Because the Quran values scientific research, and therefore scientific breaktroughs will allow you to read the same passages in the Quran in a different light.
Are we the norm? No. Are we normal? Yes.If you have trouble accepting things that aren't even new. Well, then i'm sorry for you, but sooner or later you'll have to accept that some things exist, even if you'd wish they didn't. You can't just simply ignore things you don't understand. You can't extinguish us either. We'll keep coming back. That's how humans were created. If you make a point out of ignoring God's creation, i'm sure God won't exactly feel flattered by that behaviour.
mathematics is not troll
"It is also a statistic that people not fitting into heteronormativity or cisgender are significant in number and my estimations are that they are around 50-75%."
a number that came out of nowhere
it's a fact that lgbtism is a trend in the USA today, and the cool kids all want to be some kind of special snowflake
we see where this is taking the USA, they started talking about STD epidemics
bravo!
i'll give you a few sources because all you seem capable of doing is talk emotionally
http//usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-05-23-Sex-survey-revelations-on-gay-identity_n.htm
http//www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/14/citing-exploding-hiv-epidemic-who-says-for-first-time-all-gay-men-should-take-antitretroviral-drugs/
http//www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/
http//www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/7/study-sees-gays-as-17-percent-of-population/
http//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/23/AR2010092306828.html
http//healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/study-20-of-homosexual-men-are-hiv-positive-but-only-half-know-it/it's a fact that western style LGBTism is wicked and based on marxist beliefs
-
A soul does not have gender, Sinem.
It is the body which gives gender belonging with its flow of hormones. It is the body you have to control, like you write, but being homosexual or not is due to the body with its instinct and not the Spirit (soul). If you did not have the body you would not have a desire for any gender or sexual intercourse for that sake.
The discussion from my part was to point out that such desires to redesign the body to be another sex is from the instinct as you spiritually have no logical reason to undergo such procedures. If the gender identity causes a problem in any person then they are identifying themselves with the body they are within for sure. This is not wrong but it is not right either as it is not the correct focus in this world, i.e. bodily focus is not a remedy to get out of it.
Homosexuality can have its roots in various reasons such as that the soul has had a female sex body in the past and made a strong imprint to it. Any other explanation does not make sense since they seem trapped within the body of a different sex yet the body has its authentic design and flow of hormones. This is when the soul causes homosexuality. Having gender identity whatsoever in your life is nothing to strive for and could thus explain the reason why they recycled into another body rather than reach salvation.
I have also periodically had such problems, but I have let them be and instead accept the situation and learn to live with the functionality of this body in which I was placed with the Spirit that is mine. What I would like and who I am are two different things. I have also learned to focus on much more important matters than to waste my time with bodily impulses.
Be well
Amenuel -
Homosexuality can have its roots in various reasons such as that the soul has had a female sex body in the past
you make me laugh buddy rotfl
-
mathematics is not troll
"It is also a statistic that people not fitting into heteronormativity or cisgender are significant in number and my estimations are that they are around 50-75%."
a number that came out of nowhere
it's a fact that lgbtism is a trend in the USA today, and the cool kids all want to be some kind of special snowflake
we see where this is taking the USA, they started talking about STD epidemics
bravo!
i'll give you a few sources because all you seem capable of doing is talk emotionally
http//usatoday30.usatoday.com/news/opinion/forum/2011-05-23-Sex-survey-revelations-on-gay-identity_n.htm
http//www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/07/14/citing-exploding-hiv-epidemic-who-says-for-first-time-all-gay-men-should-take-antitretroviral-drugs/
http//www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2012/05/americans-have-no-idea-how-few-gay-people-there-are/257753/
http//www.washingtontimes.com/news/2011/apr/7/study-sees-gays-as-17-percent-of-population/
http//www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/09/23/AR2010092306828.html
http//healthland.time.com/2010/09/26/study-20-of-homosexual-men-are-hiv-positive-but-only-half-know-it/it's a fact that western style LGBTism is wicked and based on marxist beliefs
No, mathematics is no troll, but you didn't use mathematics in a relevant way. Yes i talk a lot emotionally. Because that's exactly what gender dysphoria is about. And also because girls use more emotion, rather than cold math.
You can't explain everything with math. If you don't believe in anything emotional or spiritual, i'm afraid you're at the wrong place.You sure don't seem to have much understanding about how 'The West' really is. There is no such thing as gay/trans being fashionable. Being gay/trans is extremely tough, so someone doing it for the fashion will be getting desillusioned very, very quick. Maybe famous artists can get away with it, but i never once considered big stars as representative and most people who are past their teens don't consider them as role models either.
My estimation was not based on gay or trans, which i both estimated between 5 and 20, and 5 are the official estimates here in the Benelux at least. But mostly the big amount of bisexual, asexual, bigender and agender people. A lot of people you know personally do fit into the spectrums of these, but because they resemble heteronormativity enough, it causes no significant dysphoria to them. However, to claim the majority of people is cisgender or hundred percent heterosexual is just being ignorant.
But i also said it's an estimation. I hope you understand the meaning of that world. Statistics are somewhat useless in this subjects, because the enourmous amount of closeted people. Estimations are based on logically extending the statistics we have. Statistics are only the top of an Iceberg. Also it's no suprise the previous era you didn't hear about gay or trans people, because of the big influence of the ultraconservative Vatican (who are today thankfully reduced to insignificance in most of Europe (i'm not against Christians, don't get me wrong))
Claiming it's a fashion or trendy is by all means - forgive me the word - bullshit, and means you obviously haven't met any real trans or gay people. I'm an insider, so i know anyone who thinks its trendy gives up very soon. There's no way they'll survive in the circumstances we have to survive in. Doing it out of rebellion also has the same effect those who are doing it won't last very long. Do you really think it is that easy to out yourself as gay or trans here in the west? We're discriminated against just as much as people discriminate against muslims or other races. Yes, it could be a hell lot worse, but please don't think we're in an easy position. Yes we do have the luxury to express our opinion and i'm really thankful that i'm capable of doing so. Tolerated, but not accepted.
Though i must admit that those who do it out of rebellion or trend - though very small in numbers - are the ones that scream the loudest. But it's not hard to pick out those who are fake. They just scream empty slogans and repeat the same slogans. The only thing i'm repeating is that our numbers are very much higher than all of you suspect. But the real trans people are usually those who are afraid of showing it, and not those who scream the loudest for attention. Only when you manage to get in talks to closeted people, you get an idea of how big our numbers truly are.
I'm also repeating that these phenomenons are not only relatively common but also completely natural. The big historical presence of gay/trans people in asian, pacific and some native american cultures does also suggest it has nothing to do with western values. That it's certainly nothing new or trendy.
And i only have to laugh about that marxism comment. The west is extremely, but really extremely anti-marxist and anti-socialist the last couple of years. The public opinion is very much against these ideas. Despite having all their comforts to thank to those ideas.The links you showed don't look very legit. I prefer to believe the excellent gender researchers here in Europe over random American media. Especially as the US is still rather conservative when it comes to LGBT-issues. And perhaps that's just my European pride that i can't take anything Americans say serious.
And the fact that you try to bring STD's into the discussion is just pure trolling. We all know sleeping with a cisgender heterosexual s*** or a transgender s*** makes no difference STD-wise, and that non-perverted trans and gay people are just as clean as non-perverted heterosexuals.
Though it is a fact that trans/gay people have a bigger risk to exposion, because the possible partners choices for us are very limited. So we are vulnerable to rotten apples if we get desperate. But that is not our fault, but rather that one guy/girl who goes to bed with everyone. Please don't compare us to the rotten apples. Yes, the gay clubbing scene is up to no good, but that is defenitely not representative. And no, the trans sex industy is up to no good, but that is defenitely not representative either. Despite for example how everyone thinks all trans people in Thailand are prostitutes, that's actually are very small number of the total trans population over there. There are just so many trans people that most people can't comprehend. Just like i met lot of trans people who are living normal everyday lives when i visited the Phillippines. They're defenitely not all infected, either. Yes, they are more vulnerable, and there are defenitely a bunch of rotten apples who ruin their reputation for the rest of the world. But seeing the reality is very different. (and refreshing to see them being 'normal'
Besides, STD-epidemics are nothing new. They've been recorded trough history a lot in other contexts as well, just like war and poverty. Is the whole of the southern half of Africa gay because there are so many STD's over there? No, of course not.@Man Of Faith. I guess we have to agree to partially disagree about the soul. A soul does have a gender, just like the body has a gender, and the society also puts you in a gender. The society part is the one you should ignore, i think we all agree on that. And the other 2 can still be in conflict.
It's indeed possible that these feelings are traces of past lives. It sounds plausible to me.
I guess you can indeed say that most of desires are coming from the body (which are my desires for male heterosexuality, the ones that feel unnatural to me and cause me pain), but those feel in conflict with something which is obviously not directed by any hormones, and that is my heterosexual female desires. Where can that come from other than the soul? A brain defect probably, as my brain perceives different than my body perceives. But then i don't see what is wrong trying to correct the anomaly and adapt the body to how the brain is functioning. Adapting the brain to the body is not possible with current technology, and theraphies has so far proven to be ineffective. Except perhaps brainwashing, but i'm sure you're all against brainwashing. Besides, i think the brain is our connection to the soul (what we refer to methaphorically as the heart), so changing the connection to the soul will only cause more anomalies.
And spiritual logic be careful using the word 'logic', keep in mind that female logic can be very different different than male logic. Probably because they are better in connection with the spiritual side of things, but less good in connecting with the earhtly side of things. There are some things we girls 'just know', and very often, science ultimately proves us to be right (of course not always). Also please don't use math when discussing with people who are visuable bad with math. Neither use math when discussion spirituality. Yeah sure, the Quran does feature some intelligent math, but it's mostly a spiritual book. Female brains work different. And that transgender brains are partially female is an established fact. (which has been discussed in the beginning pages). And that my brain can't function in a male way is a proven the hard way. Though i am capable of imitating male behaviour, i personally don't understand one bit of how it's supposed to work and how i'm supposed to think. I'm sorry if i can't follow the same logic sometimes.
Everything i say sounds perfectly logical to me, and everything you say sounds perfectly logical to you. There's nothing as subjective as logic.A lot of people have periodically problems like this (hence my claim that most people are bigender or agender). However, keep in mind that i'm not a teenager who's just exploring herself, but an adult who tried to fit in and failed many times. (my current solution is trying to set up my life (relationship, work, etc.) in a gender neutral way, so i can accomodate possible/likely future changes.
Anyway, i can keep on reacting, but i think i don't have anything more to add. I'll gladly debate about emotional/spiritual matters, or about the things i know from the official gender research facilities in my country or inside information from trans forums and the trans scene.
I unfortunately can not discuss with non-arguments and i will ignore links that don't look trustworthy. Neither will i discuss facts or claims that have no relevancy whatsoever.
No i'm not able to quote everything with sources either, as most things i say are from memory and i don't remember where exactly i read it. I apologise for not having the proper sources to back up my statements. If you choose not to take me serious because of that, i guess i can't blame you. I just hope you believe me and my intuition. -
No, mathematics is no troll, but you didn't use mathematics in a relevant way.
valid empirical studies are always relevant
explain how 1 in 5 LGBT homosexuals have HIV? what kind of lifestyle does a group has to lead to even get close to that?
Yes i talk a lot emotionally. Because that's exactly what gender dysphoria is about. And also because girls use more emotion, rather than cold math.
You can't explain everything with math. If you don't believe in anything emotional or spiritual, i'm afraid you're at the wrong place.i am not at the wrong place, because the quran says to study the world around us, and that's what i do, studying the world around includes empirical studies and research, which means observing the world around us and making accurate statements about it
the CDC doesn't lie when it puts out the statistics, and many statistics are not made popular and are kept in the research papers because of illogical emotional reactions these studies could trigger in the general populace
You sure don't seem to have much understanding about how 'The West' really is. There is no such thing as gay/trans being fashionable. Being gay/trans is extremely tough, so someone doing it for the fashion will be getting desillusioned very, very quick. Maybe famous artists can get away with it, but i never once considered big stars as representative and most people who are past their teens don't consider them as role models either.
all the "gay pride" parades
folsom street fair
all the endless shoehorning of homo characters in all media possiblethis is proof that lgbtism is being portrayed as being the hot new thing to be by the media and it has its effects on the young impressionable minds
it's not my problem though if entire generations are being told to be weak low energy multisexual pansexual catkins
My estimation was not based on gay or trans, which i both estimated between 5 and 20, and 5 are the official estimates here in the Benelux at least. But mostly the big amount of bisexual, asexual, bigender and agender people. A lot of people you know personally do fit into the spectrums of these, but because they resemble heteronormativity enough, it causes no significant dysphoria to them. However, to claim the majority of people is cisgender or hundred percent heterosexual is just being ignorant.
give empirical studies for that
basically you're saying that many people are forced to have kids by societal pressure and that they hate it
so what would be the solution? counter societal pressure to make everyone a LGBTist ?
But i also said it's an estimation. I hope you understand the meaning of that world. Statistics are somewhat useless in this subjects,
you just lost all credibility
closeted does not matter when the polling is done anonymously
if you knew anything about statistics and probability, you would know it very well
The links you showed don't look very legit. I prefer to believe the excellent gender researchers here in Europe over random American media. Especially as the US is still rather conservative when it comes to LGBT-issues. And perhaps that's just my European pride that i can't take anything Americans say serious.
And the fact that you try to bring STD's into the discussion is just pure trolling. We all know sleeping with a cisgender heterosexual s*** or a transgender s*** makes no difference STD-wise, and that non-perverted trans and gay people are just as clean as non-perverted heterosexuals.so you totally reject CDC research on the issue?
you don't even know what the CDC is, and who the WHO is
did you know that in europe it's illegal to make statistics based on ethnicity? this simply proves you're not interested in real empirical studies, only the ones that please your emotions
do i need to pull out STD statistics comparing normal people to LGBTist people?
reminder 1 in 5 homosexuals in the USA have HIV
they didn't catch that desperately like you imply
-
You never addressed my arguments which came straight from Quran and Reason
Because they had nothing to do with the subject. If you insist i give you a reaction, you're free to explain their relevancy.
valid empirical studies are always relevant
explain how 1 in 5 LGBT homosexuals have HIV? what kind of lifestyle does a group has to lead to even get close to that?
Agan, this is not exclusive to LGBT, with most African countries with their high HIV-ratings in general as a good example.i am not at the wrong place, because the quran says to study the world around us, and that's what i do, studying the world around includes empirical studies and research, which means observing the world around us and making accurate statements about it
the CDC doesn't lie when it puts out the statistics, and many statistics are not made popular and are kept in the research papers because of illogical emotional reactions these studies could trigger in the general populace
Statistics are meaningless when there's no context. If city A has a number of 2000 registered crimes per year and city B a number of 4000 registered crimes, that doesnt mean city B automatically has more crimes. It could also mean the police of city B did their job a lot better than that of city A. Statistics are rather worthless if you look at the pure numbers. Because 'closeted' people will never pop up into the statistics, but their number is extremely big. Every statistic should be taken with a grain of salt, and emotionality is a huge factor in understanding the whole picture.
If the North-Korean goverment will tell you 100% of their population is heterosexual, are you seriously going to believe such a source (an official one), without taking it with a grain of salt? Usually emotional estimations are a bit closer to the real world than close statistics. At least when it comes to things that are not accepted like LGBT. They aren't accepted in the west, they are tolerated. Please understand the difference between these words.all the "gay pride" parades
folsom street fair
all the endless shoehorning of homo characters in all media possiblethis is proof that lgbtism is being portrayed as being the hot new thing to be by the media and it has its effects on the young impressionable minds
it's not my problem though if entire generations are being told to be weak low energy multisexual pansexual catkins
I'm not in favour of those pride parades either, as they don't serve any purpose. But again, those parades are 'tolerated', not 'encouraged'.
But to tell you the truth, it is exactly that type of media coverage which prevents people from outing themselves. It doesnt encourage them at all, it discourages them. Because the media portrays us totally unrealistic, and the pride parades are totally over-the-top and most LGBT people are truly ashamed of those things. So yeah, your point perhaps makes sense from an outsider perspective, but if you've talked to lots of closeted or semi-closeted people, you'll see a different picture. Again i liked to repeat that 'those who scream the loudest are not representative of the majority'. But that is also the case for heterosexuals or religious extremists or pretty much everything you can imagine.give empirical studies for that
basically you're saying that many people are forced to have kids by societal pressure and that they hate it
so what would be the solution? counter societal pressure to make everyone a LGBTist ?
you just lost all credibility
I havent implied that thing about kids at all. Though it is the case that there is a concencus amongst heterosexual couples to have no kids and no marriage. Marriage and family nowadays is considered backwards, and the ones who want kids or families it the most are usually the LGBT people. (and that's a heartbreaking dilemma, though we don't really have a choice) I'm not really sure where you get this from.
Bisexual, Asexual, Bigender and Agender have nothing to do with the desire to have kids or not. Besides, for most of these groups, there's not much problem fitting into heteronormativity. However that doesnt mean they are hetero. Not having sexual desires does not mean you are physically unable to have sex, and being attracted to both genders does not usually pose any problems, as eventually they will choose either a heterosexual or a homosexual relationship. Usually a heterosexual because homosexuality is still frowned upon. Agender just means you're trying to be as genderneutral as possible, and bigender means you want to use both your male and female qualities. This doesnt usually pose problems, unless your partner/family/workplaces is extremely conservative, and insisting on media-based gender norms. Which is unfortunately still the case at some places.Empirical studies see my point above. They don't give a representative image of society. And no, in an anonymous poll, closeted people will still lie about their truth, because they're still scared someone will read it. It doesnt make logical sense, but most of them have such little self-confidence that they will never admit it, not even anonymous. You don't seem to grasp what being closeted really means. Then there is also the problem of people being in denial. Are you seriously claiming that you're going to be able to put that into reliable statistics?
you just lost all credibility
closeted does not matter when the polling is done anonymouslyif you knew anything about statistics and probability, you would know it very well
so you totally reject CDC research on the issue?
you don't even know what the CDC is, and who the WHO is
If anything, i only gained credebility, because i'm in favour of having a realistic representation of the world, rather than just believing only what i see. It is a fact that you can not put things into statistics when the information needed for these statistics is not available. Am i right in saying that you need to have a lot of information for statistics to be reliable? Yes i am. You are simply ignoring the fact that your statistics only give a representation of what is recorded. Or are you really going to claim everything is recorded?
Yes, i'm very, very critical to American sources. After all America is a christian-conservative and ?bercapitalist country. Every official source there has to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not saying their statistics are wrong in se. I'm mostly saying they don't show the whole picture.
And The Who is a British rockband from long ago But yeah, to be honest i did have to google them. It's probably because anyone quoting them translates their names as well. When translating them, it does ring a bell. Then again, the news websites you linked to are not the WHO or CDC. They just quote them, and you know how media works they just quote the interesting parts and put a lot of things out of their context. ) Especially not American media. Link me an official document from those organisations themselves, and i consider it a legit, but link me to random news websites, and i don't consider them as legit, unless if i'm familiar with them.
did you know that in europe it's illegal to make statistics based on ethnicity? this simply proves you're not interested in real empirical studies, only the ones that please your emotions
do i need to pull out STD statistics comparing normal people to LGBTist people?
reminder 1 in 5 homosexuals in the USA have HIV
they didn't catch that desperately like you imply
Yup, and you we both know the actual number of homosexuals with HIV is far lower. Or are you still keep on persisting that statistics are a good representation of the massive amount of unknown information. 1 in 5 open homosexuals? That's possible, because people like them are indeed vulnerable to those rotten apples who spread the virus. 1 in 5 of all homosexuals in the USA? Don't be ridiculous. Please be a little more realistic in your claims.
I do believe that there will be a day when statistics will know almost everything (and maybe instances like the CIA etc. already do), but that will take a few decades. Statistics are getting more and more reliable each and every year, but we're still very very far from that day. And on some things statistics are reliable like the amount of people being born genetically male/female. That's a reliable statistic, but even then, there are still people on the world who statistically don't exist as they have never been registered, so we can only estimate their numbers by extending our logic beyond pure math and use worldly knowledge. No, we can not know for sure, that's why i estimate. But when it comes to LGBT issues, estimations from insiders are still more realistic than statistics from the outsiders. I know a lot of outsiders can't grasp it, but it makes perfect sense. You only have to look in daily situations. Anyway, at this point, estimations are more valuable than statistics, because there's a systematic lack of statistics. If you keep on repeating your point, well, good luck getting confused that reality will never match up to your logic. -
No I conveyed my message clearly to you.
I now see your position. You just follow your desires. So do whatever you will, Allah Sees and Hears All. He will judge among us and show you everything you did.Because being able to quoting random Quran verses and take them out of their context certainly makes you better in the eye of God. If you believe you are superior because of that, than be my guest. I won't try to change you. But if you talk, i answer. God didn't create language to troll, he created language so you would discuss things and then try to understand things by discussing with other observers.
I looked back at your post, and all you do is claim you have 'evidence' but first of all you don't explain what exactly you are trying to prove and second of all, it doesnt prove anything.
At least i'm honest enough to admit that most things i say are estimations, observations and intuition (which is usually sufficiently reliable, because it's the part of me that is in connection to God, if you don't feel connected to God, well, isn't it about time your start to do so?)
But apparently you have so-called evidence. You then back up your evidence by using verses that don't support your opinions at all. Though you don't really seem to bother to explain what your opinions are either. You prefer to talk in mysteries and hide behind the fa?ade of the Quran.
If abusing the Quran is your way of proving things. Well, then i hope for you God will forgive you. But if he forgives you, i won't object to that, because it's his decision, and he has the right to do so. And what if he forgives me? Are you going to take God to court because he does something conflicting with your image of the Quran? If you're that certain that your interpretations are proven facts, then i dare you to dake God to court for creating gender diversity! Yes of course it's ridiculous to question God! And that's what you're doing, you question his creation of trans people. (and other here also just try to prove it an put it on media, trends or capitalism) Look at the mirror before you dare to accuse someone of not respecting God's creation.What you did there are bring up stuff like 'being ungrateful'. Have i once mentionted that i'm ungrateful? No, God made me a transgendered person, and i do not blame him for that. I'm thankful that i've been lucky to experience so many things. Isn't denying my true self closer to being ungrateful than adapting to my true self?
You use the argument 'man and women', but when confronted to the obvious fact that the distinction between man and woman isn't clear-cut, you just go blurgh. And how can you blame someone for not reproducing when the world suffers massive overpopulation, whilst many children are parentless, and people like me would be happy to give shelter to parentless kids. Are you going to take care for those parentless kids? Well, i would be delighted to do so! Or are you going to claim those parentless kids should just die and rot and nobody has the right to care for them because God wants it like that? Sounds like a certain western religion to me. That religion is called Capitalism.
You complain about rejecting Gods creation (which is very diverse), but the only thing you do is closing your eyes to Gods beautiful creations if you don't like them. If it exists, it's created by God, and it is created for a purpose. If you don't like the idea of having a purpose, well yeah, again, then go take God to court if you are unhappy with it.I don't have to answer. I answer because i feel it's my responsability to to do so.
And your GMO argument is even more irrelevant. How can you compare destroying natural diversity to defending natural diversity? If you choose to refuse to understand the world as it is, how can you claim that someone else disrespects it? Claiming something is unnatural because you don't like it doesnt make it unnatural. Claiming something is unnatural because you refuse to read the Quran without worldly context doesnt prove it is unnatural. You can't abuse the Quran forever to justify your own dislikes and fears, i think it's time for you to stop being a child and face the world as it is. And when you dare to quote holy words, make sure they are relevant.
I do not 'just follow my own desires'. I have conversations with people who are directly involved with me, so i try to not hurt them. I am not without sin, of course. But calling me selfish? Yeah sure. I'm doing all this effort for selfish reason you know. Because you know what? I want to take over the world and make all muslims gay and infect them with HIV! Because i'm an illuminati lizard jew hired by the KGB, thats why!
-
Because they had nothing to do with the subject. If you insist i give you a reaction, you're free to explain their relevancy.
Agan, this is not exclusive to LGBT, with most African countries with their high HIV-ratings in general as a good example.you're avoiding the issue by talking about third world countries instead of comparing directly with the population living in the same country as the 1 in 5 homosexuals having aids live in
i think it's very telling what you told us, you had to bring up third world countries to save your argument
compare what is comparable
Statistics are meaningless when there's no context. If city A has a number of 2000 registered crimes per year and city B a number of 4000 registered crimes, that doesnt mean city B automatically has more crimes. It could also mean the police of city B did their job a lot better than that of city A. Statistics are rather worthless if you look at the pure numbers. Because 'closeted' people will never pop up into the statistics, but their number is extremely big. Every statistic should be taken with a grain of salt, and emotionality is a huge factor in understanding the whole picture.
If the North-Korean goverment will tell you 100% of their population is heterosexual, are you seriously going to believe such a source (an official one), without taking it with a grain of salt? Usually emotional estimations are a bit closer to the real world than close statistics. At least when it comes to things that are not accepted like LGBT. They aren't accepted in the west, they are tolerated. Please understand the difference between these words.you're dismissing very important and very serious information with logical fallacies
when the CDC does their statistics, they are very rigorous, and when they tested homosexuals, they found that for a very good number N of homosexuals, one in five have HIV
that's the bottom line and there's no moral relativism or logical fallacies that will help you save your argument, the whole LGBT community is wicked because it is a movement principally based on sexuality and "free love"
the statistics prove this
I havent implied that thing about kids at all. Though it is the case that there is a concencus amongst heterosexual couples to have no kids and no marriage. Marriage and family nowadays is considered backwards, and the ones who want kids or families it the most are usually the LGBT people.
that's straight up bullshit excuse my french
(and that's a heartbreaking dilemma, though we don't really have a choice) I'm not really sure where you get this from.
Bisexual, Asexual, Bigender and Agender have nothing to do with the desire to have kids or not. Besides, for most of these groups, there's not much problem fitting into heteronormativity. However that doesnt mean they are hetero. Not having sexual desires does not mean you are physically unable to have sex, and being attracted to both genders does not usually pose any problems, as eventually they will choose either a heterosexual or a homosexual relationship. Usually a heterosexual because homosexuality is still frowned upon.this needs to be proven
Agender just means you're trying to be as genderneutral as possible, and bigender means you want to use both your male and female qualities. This doesnt usually pose problems, unless your partner/family/workplaces is extremely conservative, and insisting on media-based gender norms. Which is unfortunately still the case at some places.
this flies in the face of reality
i'm going back to what i said earlier, the vast majority of people out there are clear cis gendered heteroscum who do not fit into the LGBTQTP rainbow of gender class warfare lunacyEmpirical studies see my point above. They don't give a representative image of society. And no, in an anonymous poll, closeted people will still lie about their truth, because they're still scared someone will read it.
anonymous means no name and nothing recognizable
there are true and tested methods that give very accurate numbers, and you only learn that by going to a statistics and probability class in university or even on youtube
i think statistics and probability should be a mandatory part of everyone's education at this point, going deep into this subject because it helps understand a lot about pretty much everything
It doesnt make logical sense, but most of them have such little self-confidence that they will never admit it, not even anonymous. You don't seem to grasp what being closeted really means. Then there is also the problem of people being in denial. Are you seriously claiming that you're going to be able to put that into reliable statistics?
the burden of proof remains on you to show me the number of people in denial and the number of closetedIf anything, i only gained credebility, because i'm in favour of having a realistic representation of the world, rather than just believing only what i see. It is a fact that you can not put things into statistics when the information needed for these statistics is not available.
but you keep bringing up numbers without proof
Yes, i'm very, very critical to American sources. After all America is a christian-conservative and ?bercapitalist country. Every official source there has to be taken with a grain of salt. I'm not saying their statistics are wrong in se. I'm mostly saying they don't show the whole picture.
first of all there's literally nothing wrong with capitalism and there's nothing wrong with american christians, second of all i'm bringing you CDC and WHO stats which are not conservative run entities if you knew anything about them
stop hiding behind this fake "im such a progressive modern european" veil
Yup, and you we both know the actual number of homosexuals with HIV is far lower.
this shows you do not understand how statistics works
do you understand what frequency is? whenever the CDC would test homosexuals, the frequency of homos with hiv was far higher than that of heteros
instead of trying to understand why this is the case, you're simply dismissing the information as corrupt or wrong or erroneous
But when it comes to LGBT issues, estimations from insiders are still more realistic than statistics from the outsiders.
i also know the LGBTPTQ lobby is strong and well funded by leftist billionaires such as SOROS and the likes
you may not see the color of the money but someone does
i know for a fact that LGBTPTQ lifestyle is incompatible with what's written in the quran, considering what kind of people is representing the LGBTBBQ group nowadays
i mean, many of it's adherents promote aids and HIV as being great and totally cool, or how we should all live in a world where everyone has aids
yes, this happened, and yes, it's surreal
-
That post on the 7th page of the thread I made was actually meant for Aisha. I do not know why but for some reason I thought you were Aisha under a different username. Do you have any relation to her?
That would explains why you never responded to begin with. Misunderstanding.
Although, I would have to remain firm and truthful with you.
It is indeed a Great thing that Allah has guided you to Himself, IF you are among the truthful. I am genuinely happy for that. I went back and read your OP.
My friend you came here for answers so give me ear and overlook our bad start.
Shall you? -
i mean, many of it's adherents promote aids and HIV as being great and totally cool, or how we should all live in a world where everyone has aids
Okay, sorry, that does end the discussion. I wrote a whole fell-funded answer (as i always did in this topic), but after saying insulting things like this, there is no point in continuing to talk with you. If you didn't understand it, my last comment to HP was cynical, just to say 'what you want to hear'
You're alienated from reality, and as long as you don't face reality, you'll only become more frustrated. You've been constantly claiming things about the west are just not true and not even realistic, and you keep on insisting on reliability of data which is by current technology impossible to be reliable or complete. Math revolves around one thing reliable data. That's what all math teachers (and physics teachers and chemisty teachers and biology teachers and geography teachers, etc. have told me) If you keep on insisting that data you referred to is reliable, whilst ignoring my very valid points i talked about, well, then you're just trolling. You can troll people, but you can't troll God.
If you're going to use guesswork to make your math work, then your argument against someone else who uses estimations is invalid. It does not matter how statistics work or not, because if you went outside, you'd see that at this point in history, the statistics are totally not matching up with the reality. I am confident that this will be possible in the future and we'll both live to see that day, but right now, statistics are just not complete enough. Using my intuition is more reliable than using statistics, because unlike your statistics, my intuition matches the real world pretty good.A fact that is very visible to the naked eye is that God created a diverse and beautiful world. If you don't experience it that way, you have to argue with the creator. If the real world doesnt match up with your interpretation of the Quran (and it clearly doesn't), then you are reading it wrong, because the way i read it, it makes perfect sense.
If you think you know the west better than everyone who lives here... well... facepalm
I also do not consider western values superior. Why would i even consider a religion that is hated by many people (islam) if i cared only about western values?But i'll return the favour and say a bold accusation towards you if you keep up this antiworldly attitude you'll end up being an otaku whose only social interaction is your waifu.
That post on the 7th page of the thread I made was actually meant for Aisha. I do not know why but for some reason I thought you were Aisha under a different username. Do you have any relation to her?
That would explains why you never responded to begin with. Misunderstanding.
Although, I would have to remain firm and truthful with you.
It is indeed a Great thing that Allah has guided you to Himself, IF you are among the truthful. I am genuinely happy for that. I went back and read your OP.
My friend you came here for answers so give me ear and overlook our bad start.
Shall you?I genuinely appreciate this comment and i do not blame you for mixing us up. No i do not have any relation to Aisha and she seems to be inactive today. I just bumped upon the topic she created some years ago by googling my questions, because it was relevant to me. So far i've had lot of answers to my questions, and i do not regret considering islam. The way i read it, it matches up to the reality.
I totally expected having to go into some arguments and even though it is hard to not lose my patience when some people are ignorant about the real world, it's a good preparation for when i go public with my transition, because i'll always have to face such opposition. Therefore avoiding opposition is not the right thing. God is testing me if i'm truly a woman by putting my trough these trails, and it makes perfect sense that he does so. It's by no means fun, but i'm accepting the challenge. The other test is being totally honest with my close ones, and i'm doing that too.
I apologise for any bold statements. Yet though i still think your points towards Aisha weren't really helpful to her either (if she were able to read it). I think my suggestion towards her of 'wait until your kid is an adult' was something we can both agree on though. Correct me if i'm wrong. -
you'll end up being an otaku whose only social interaction is your waifu
Never thought I'd read that here but awesome. Don't be discouraged by some who think they've got it all figured out, they're everywhere. You've done a great job of responding in a classy way (and no, I don't particularly like Trump). -
Never thought I'd read that here but awesome. Don't be discouraged by some who think they've got it all figured out, they're everywhere. You've done a great job of responding in a classy way (and no, I don't particularly like Trump).
I always thought that it really takes one otaku to know one. Just being familiar with those terms alone is indicative! "Waifu" Rofl haha
Anyway...terrible joke on my part..
Hello SC,
How are you? Did you receive my message? I PM'd you about 2 days ago, I think I PM'd the right person...maybe something glitched...