Free-Minds.org is another Sect...like Suni and Shia Sects.
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since i was naughty with you, i will be funny with you...
if they keep my two hands in a bucket of ice for me, i will accept to have them both amputated (because then i can get them re-attached by a plastic surgeon with the millions i hid outside ;D )still you are not convincing me bro... Allah is wiser than us all...
If you were Medoff who stole the 50 billion dollar, would you rather choose to be jailed for 128 years (His actual jail time) or would you choose to get your hand cut off?
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Peace belH
and by the way,
even if you cut one hand only, with the advance in medicine, with a proper donor, you can get a graft hand re-attached too by the way, so the rich will always win, even in an islamic system... that is unless science development gets forbidden brickwall ... -
since i was naughty with you, i will be funny with you...
if they keep my two hands in a bucket of ice for me, i will accept to have them both amputated (because then i can get them re-attached by a plastic surgeon with the millions i hid outside ;D )still you are not convincing me bro... Allah is wiser than us all...
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 128 years in jail?
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 100 years in jail?
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 50 years in jail?
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 20 years in jail?
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 15 years in jail? -
belH, peace
For me I have no idea... for others I have no idea too...
to be honest, if there was a shadow of a doubt in my mind that it could make sense to amputate two hands
for theft and that there is logic into it, it will be like the zina directive which is very clear.
the theft directive is not clear, and left open to interpretation intentionally, there is wisdom into this.
if you do not understand the wisdom, then tough for you.
ahl al sunnah (sunna and shia) worked around it by still amputating but by diminishing the impact of taking
the meaning cutting off = chopping off, only they made the matters worse, because they had to invent other clauses
where they start chopping someone's body bit by bit!!!
I tell you what happened, in the first civil war of the muslims, most of the good muslims who knew the correct interpretation
of the Quran, including Ali, Hussein and Hassan were killed, so they had to invent a way to explain the Quran for the people,
and it was a golden opportunity for the enemies of God to invent something to justify any meaning they want to the Quran.
Imam Shafie gave that opportunity by making the Hadith the infallible words of the Prophet, then Bukhari, Muslim, and the other Collectors produced them...
That includes this disgusting interpretation of the punishment for the thief you want to cling to.
Do not get me wrong, I have no sympathy for thieves, and I am not weak in my decision making, but justice has to be
rational, logical, and not based on false unreliable information.
Allah knows best -
That includes this disgusting interpretation of the punishment for the thief you want to cling to.
Well, it still less harsh than 20 years in Jail...moreover, God's wisdom might be too hard for us to grasp, when thinking about cutting off hands (which I believe is too harsh to imagine), but, We only can say "We Hear and We Obey"
Moreover, now we do not practice this punishment anymore, however Humans practice it against Innocents.
Here is today's civilization that because of it you think the Quran Punishment is barbaric.http//www.thewe.cc/thewei/_/images11/iraq_us_invasion/boy_hands_amputated.jpe
I hope your empathy for Meldoff is not the same for this innocent Kid
I'm done with this subject
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Peace
the theft directive is not clear,
Quran says "I am Clear",you say that Quran says wrong it is not clear. Is this not a blame on the Quran??
Such a severe punishment cannot be left AMBIGUOUS.
the meaning cutting off = chopping off, only they made the matters worse, because they had to invent other clauses
where they start chopping someone's body bit by bit!!!Provide the proof for this rubbish statement.
Regards -
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 128 years in jail?
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 100 years in jail?
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 50 years in jail?
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 20 years in jail?
Would you agree that cutting off the hands is less harsh than 15 years in jail?I think cutting off my hands would be exponentially more harsh than spending the rest of my life in prison
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Well, it still less harsh than 20 years in Jail...moreover, God's wisdom might be too hard for us to grasp, when thinking about cutting off hands (which I believe is too harsh to imagine), but, We only can say "We Hear and We Obey"
Why on earth would a thief be jailed for 20 years?
And how can you "obey" if you do not understand?
No one here says "we hear and disobey", so no need for this "holier than thou" way of discussion. We try to understand the "order", having God's attributes in our mind, as Most Wise, Most Merciful.
"yad" in the qur'aan means anything from palm to elbow, or even up to the shoulder. Would God not tell up to where the hand should be cut, but bother to tell us up to where we should wash them for ablution? And leave this particle for our scholars to "choose" and decide? Is this God's way of "tafseel", and not "leaving any detail"?
Read the quraan through the eyes of the author please, not the eyes of blodd-thirsty scholars; then you will understand what he wants you to "obey".
"cut" and "hand" are two words that have many meanings in Arabic, and used in these different meanings in the quraan. Reflect, as God commands us, and choose the best meaning, again as He commands us.
When the women at the Aziz's house saw Yousuf, did they "cut" their hands or stopped whatever they were doing "stopped the conscious action of cutting"?
Imagine a scenario where you are doing something (writing, e.g..I know you do not cook ;D), and something drew your attention would you continue writing on your paper comprehensible words as you were doing, or just leave your hand there, perhaps making a long line (so not moving in different directions, or to and fro, required for writing or "cutting", or stop writing altogether, even drop the pen from your hand?
Pealing fruit, or whatever, requires attention. If the attention is suddenly taken somewhere else, you stop what you are doing. Vey simple. Same with pouring coffee you may freeze your hand and so the coffee continue to pour...passively. In other words, you "stop" the conscious action of pouring. -
I cannot understand how 'bima kasabaa' get ignored everytime BelH analyses the ayah. The punishment for sariqa MUST be reliant upon what the thieves EARN. How on earth can be chopping off HANDS then (unless they're in the hand-stealing business).
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peace belH, q_student,
drama queens again, why does it always have to turn into an emotional frenzy with us Arabs huh?
Wisdom is not easy to grasp period, but wisdom is subtle not stupid.
So think better, because this is the secret of how and where the Muslim civilization can again raise again from
its ashes.Well, it still less harsh than 20 years in Jail...moreover, God's wisdom might be too hard for us to grasp, when thinking about cutting off hands (which I believe is too harsh to imagine), but, We only can say "We Hear and We Obey"
Moreover, now we do not practice this punishment anymore, however Humans practice it against Innocents.
Here is today's civilization that because of it you think the Quran Punishment is barbaric.http//www.thewe.cc/thewei/_/images11/iraq_us_invasion/boy_hands_amputated.jpe
I hope your empathy for Meldoff is not the same for this innocent Kid
I'm done with this subject
Peace
Quran says "I am Clear",you say that Quran says wrong it is not clear. Is this not a blame on the Quran??
Such a severe punishment cannot be left AMBIGUOUS.Provide the proof for this rubbish statement.
RegardsNo it is not a blame on the Quran, let alone one on Allah, there is a very good reason why it has been written this way...
let us see if your neurones can fire up a bit, and put yourselves in the Hejaz / Madina back in the 7th century... enough hints... -
peace BelH,
I will be happy to answer your questions, but as you said, let's take things one at a time, as you haven't even answered my questions yet.
Can you provide a reference from a Classical Arabic dictionary that means "punishment"?
Re your translation of "huwa" as "it".
After speaking with sister Samia, she said that "huwa" can theoretically mean "it", but she saidaccording to its context in 1275, and thus the meaning, "huwa" can only mean "he" referring to man, which means "who" and is used for humans.
Do you agree with the above? Yes/no?
If not, then I would prefer you to provide another example in The Quran to prove your point where in a similar/same structure "huwa" means "it" (with a preceding "he/who" particle), so we can determine what is right.Who knew about the plot (i.e. how Joseph was going to keep his brother)?
Joseph yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Joseph's helpers yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Joseph's brother yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
sons of Jacob yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)
Jacob yes/no? (if you answer yes, please provide specific Quranic evidence)The above question is related to the illogical switching between plural/singular/plural by Joseph's helpers (a question which you seemingly did not understand). Once you clarify who knew (according to you), then we will apply some logic and see what happens.
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peace Samia,
When the women at the Aziz's house saw Yousuf, did they "cut" their hands or stopped whatever they were doing "stopped the conscious action of cutting"?
Interesting observation.
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Peace
Quran says "I am Clear",you say that Quran says wrong it is not clear. Is this not a blame on the Quran??
Such a severe punishment cannot be left AMBIGUOUS.Provide the proof for this rubbish statement.
RegardsPeace Q_S
If you take the ayah on theft and equate cut off as chop off, then the meaning is amputate both hands of each individual.
So if you do not, and that is the meaning, you are disobeying Allah in His book...
What the Scholars did, they found (oh how handy and fortunate) convenient hadith that explain this ayat as follows- steal first strike cut right hand
- steal second strike cut left foot
- steal fourth strike cut left hand
- steal fifth strike cut head...
hmmm...
very imaginative isn't it, Pinochet, Stalin, Hitler, Gengis Khan, Julius Caesar, Nebuchdenazar, and other Taghuts cannot think better!
and you say to me this can come from Allah?
where in the same Quran He says the Nose with Nose, the Ear with Ear, the Eye with the Eye, and the Injuries in proportion?
So where is the logic I ask you again?
and you also can think about the hint I gave you...
and please do not play emotional interlude on me, I have had enough of it with my students when they do not write their essays ;D
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Peace all,
Samia, I will point to you the point that I disagree with 100%e.g..I know you do not cook ;D
All the other points you raised make sense and should be studied further; I myself, while ago, came to a conclusion that Cutting the hands can mean to Inflect Wound on the Hand; however, it did not sink.
The other way to study this further is to go back to the Laws of Old Testament and Bible
After reading the detailed laws of theft (Exodus 22, 1-15), I believe the Amputation of Hands was not prescribed in the Old Testament (unless the translation is not accurate). The Exodus laws sometimes calls for repayment of 5 time of what was stolen.
http//www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/exo22.pdfDoes that mean that God increased the Punishment in Quran, as He decreased it with Adultery?
Can "Cutting the Hands" of the Thief (which the correct translation) means something different than "the Act to physical Cut"?
If someone stole 50 billion Dollar (or even a million dollar), How can He repay?If the Word does not mean to Physical Cut Off, What is the Correct Arabic word that Means "Physical Cut Off"?
When the women at the Aziz's house saw Yousuf, did they "cut" their hands or stopped whatever they were doing "stopped the conscious action of cutting"?
I agree; however it supports that the "Physical Cutting" is the correct meaning when translating 5-38.
All the above need to be answered before concluding about the Correct meaning of 5-38?
Now, can you translate
29-5
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Peace all,
This is a Question to Free.Minds.org
In Chapter 5 verse 33 you translated to "CUT OFF HANDS", however, You Translated different in 538533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources as a penalty for what they have earned to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.
538Can you tell us what authority did you use to translate the identical Arabic words to different translation?
Peace -
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Peace all,
This is a Question to Free.Minds.org
In Chapter 5 verse 33 you translated to "CUT OFF HANDS", however, You Translated different in 538533 The recompense of those who fight God and His messenger, and seek to make corruption in the land, is that they will be killed or crucified or that their hands and feet be cut off from alternate sides or that they be banished from the land; that is a disgrace for them in this world and in the Hereafter they will have a great retribution.
533As for the thief, both male and female, you shall cut from their resources as a penalty for what they have earned to be made an example of from God. God is Noble, Wise.
538Can you tell us what authority did you use to translate the identical Arabic words to different translation?
PeaceI think to have answered you that in a previous post, scroll back please... that directive is for disbelievers' harsh treatments of their subjects, and that they might receive similar treatment as Qasas...
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I think to have answered you that in a previous post, scroll back please... that directive is for disbelievers' harsh treatments of their subjects, and that they might receive similar treatment as Qasas...
Peace,
So you agree that
Amputating Hands and Legs is a Quranic punishment.
means "Cut Off"Here is my logic to 5-33 and 5-38
In 5-33, God prescribed "Cutting of Hand and Leg" as punishment for the ones who seek corruptions in Land. And because God knew that thief seeks corruption in Land, thus, He adjusted his punishment to "Cutting Off Hands only and not Legs", in the verse (5-3 that follows 5-33, so we can relate to the two verses when understanding the meaning.
peace
