Was Moses in Egypt?????
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salam wakas
perhaps the house is a generic term and the masjid al Haram is the name of the house. non?
in any case for me its a bit obvious the place is physical
all i am saying is i feel like people here try sooo hard to be different from mainstream for the sake of being differentpeace
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peace tf,
I have seen many claim it should be understood how it is commonly understood (i.e. same as your view it seems) but they are silent when it comes to answering some basic questions I have asked over the years.
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran-2196-critical-thinking.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.html
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.htmlIn fact I do not recall anyone who has answered the issues/questions in the above articles. Some answer bits here and there but that's about it. On this forum I have created threads for each article so you can read what others say in them.
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peace tutti_frutti.
My understaniding from Qoran is that Abraham was given a task with instructions from GOD to take part of his family ( Likely Ishmael and family) to a physical place and build a sanctuary for GOD Alone commemoration for all monotheists from Al Naas"Our Lord, I have settled part of my family in this plantless/Arrid valley, at Your -Baytica Al Muharram- Sacred House. Our Lord, they are to observe the Salat, so let throngs of people converge upon them, and provide for them all kinds of fruits, that they may be appreciative.
رَبَّنا إِنّى أَسكَنتُ مِن ذُرِّيَّتى بِوادٍ غَيرِ ذى زَرعٍ عِندَ بَيتِكَ المُحَرَّمِ رَبَّنا لِيُقيمُوا الصَّلوٰةَ فَاجعَل أَفـِٔدَةً مِنَ النّاسِ تَهوى إِلَيهِم وَارزُقهُم مِنَ الثَّمَرٰتِ لَعَلَّهُم يَشكُرونَThis Abraham and Ishmael did somewhere as these verses explain further
Surely, those who disbelieve and repulse others from the path of God, and from the -Masjid Al Haram-Sacred Masjid that we designated for all the people - be they natives or visitors - and seek to pollute it and corrupt it, we will afflict them with painful retribution.
إِنَّ الَّذينَ كَفَروا وَيَصُدّونَ عَن سَبيلِ اللَّهِ وَالمَسجِدِ الحَرامِ الَّذى جَعَلنٰهُ لِلنّاسِ سَواءً العٰكِفُ فيهِ وَالبادِ وَمَن يُرِد فيهِ بِإِلحادٍ بِظُلمٍ نُذِقهُ مِن عَذابٍ أَليمٍAbraham was following GOD s instructions
We appointed Abraham to establish the Beyt( Shrine) "You shall not idolize any other god beside Me, and purify My Beyt- (shrine) for those who visit it, those who live near it, and those who bow and prostrate.
وَإِذ بَوَّأنا لِإِبرٰهيمَ مَكانَ البَيتِ أَن لا تُشرِك بى شَيـًٔا وَطَهِّر بَيتِىَ لِلطّائِفينَ وَالقائِمينَ وَالرُّكَّعِ السُّجودِ
"And proclaim that the people shall observe Hajj . They will come to you walking or riding on various exhausted (means of transportation). They will come from the farthest locations."
وَأَذِّن فِى النّاسِ بِالحَجِّ يَأتوكَ رِجالًا وَعَلىٰ كُلِّ ضامِرٍ يَأتينَ مِن كُلِّ فَجٍّ عَميقٍ
They may seek commercial benefits, and they shall commemorate God's name during the specified days for providing them with livestock. "Eat therefrom and feed the despondent and the poor."
لِيَشهَدوا مَنٰفِعَ لَهُم وَيَذكُرُوا اسمَ اللَّهِ فى أَيّامٍ مَعلومٰتٍ عَلىٰ ما رَزَقَهُم مِن بَهيمَةِ الأَنعٰمِ فَكُلوا مِنها وَأَطعِمُوا البائِسَ الفَقيرَ
They shall complete their obligations, fulfill their vows, and visit the-Beyt Al Atik-( ancient shrine).
ثُمَّ ليَقضوا تَفَثَهُم وَليوفوا نُذورَهُم وَليَطَّوَّفوا بِالبَيتِ العَتيقِ
Those who reverence the rites decreed by God have deserved a good reward at their Lord. All livestock is made lawful for your food, except for those specifically prohibited for you. You shall avoid the abomination of idol worship, and avoid bearing false witness.
ذٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّم حُرُمٰتِ اللَّهِ فَهُوَ خَيرٌ لَهُ عِندَ رَبِّهِ وَأُحِلَّت لَكُمُ الأَنعٰمُ إِلّا ما يُتلىٰ عَلَيكُم فَاجتَنِبُوا الرِّجسَ مِنَ الأَوثٰنِ وَاجتَنِبوا قَولَ الزّورِ
You shall maintain your devotion absolutely to God alone. Anyone who sets up any idol beside God is like one who fell from the sky, then gets snatched up by vultures, or blown away by the wind into a deep ravine.
حُنَفاءَ لِلَّهِ غَيرَ مُشرِكينَ بِهِ وَمَن يُشرِك بِاللَّهِ فَكَأَنَّما خَرَّ مِنَ السَّماءِ فَتَخطَفُهُ الطَّيرُ أَو تَهوى بِهِ الرّيحُ فى مَكانٍ سَحيقٍ
Indeed, those who reverence the rites decreed by God demonstrate the righteousness of their hearts.
ذٰلِكَ وَمَن يُعَظِّم شَعٰئِرَ اللَّهِ فَإِنَّها مِن تَقوَى القُلوبِThe questions that various members are debating are
Is this beyt a physical or abstract place or both?
If physical, where is it?
What is Hajj?
...etc.
For me it is clear this is a phydical place where people live or visit, commemorate GOD and gather together in a specific GOD Alone sacred Masjid to remember GOD and give thanks for what He provided and spend some specific days doing this as a rite.
There may be some abstract/spiritual meaning as well and benefit to the soul in doing this..
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Salam TF,
i am not saying people should not debate. on the contrary i think we most definately should
what i am saying is that we should not start interpreting and trying to be different from mainstream for the sake of being different (thats my debate lol)
Why did you assume that people here debate ideas so they can be different from the mainstream?
The mainstream of people do not even believe in God (see 12103), while the mainstream of those who believe are idolaters (See 12106)
example prayer The God mentions specific prayers and tells us not to be too loud or quiet. He also tells us to bow with those who bow. why start saying salat is not physical and interpreting and all. is it not salat is physical non?
I have never said that. I simply point out that we must be open to people who have different views in-case we have made a mistake in our understanding. For example, if you see Salat as a physical "prayer", then how will you reconcile 95 which tells us that if the idolaters/mushrikeen uphold the Salat, then we are to no longer fight them?
Will you force a person to pray when the Quran gives full freedom of worship and expression?
It is this lack of understanding or challenging tradition meanings that has created satanic "Islamic" nations that beat people to attend prayer and cut off hands and heads...
or ramadan, He tells us to fast IT, so is it not clear it is the month?
And did you read the verses before this verse (see 2183-184) which talks about people fasting "for a limited number of days" as was decreed for "those before"?
You have assumed that its a full month based on a) tradition, b) not noticing the other verses on the subject.
I can argue here that "Ramadhan" in 2185 is a separate fast from 2183-184. I can also argue that the "limited number of days" occurs within the month of Ramadhan (just like the days of Hajj occur within the 4 restricted months)...
or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.
I did not say it was not physical - but you have made an assumption (like the traditionalists) that Abraham and Ismail raised the foundations of this restricted Temple (actually, they say the Kaaba/Bayt and not the Temple). Was there only one Bayt? If so, then why does God refer to the Bayt in Bakka as the "first" (see 396).
i am not confused i have my opinions i just do not want to say things that could misguide in case i am wrong and as such i say that i could be wrong lol
so yeah let us definately debate i am just saying (debating ) we should not innovate just to be different especially where the words are clear
Actually, you are saying things that misguide because you maybe repeating the falsehoods that have been taught without subjecting them to the scrutiny of 1736.
Also, I would remind that the Quran is not a normal textbook...It can totally misguide those who view it through distorted eyes - look at the mess that has been made by "Islamic" states based on their mishmash of what they think the Quran says.
We must seek God to unlock our hearts and minds when reading His words (see 625), and we must always remember that the Quran does have verses which are clear, but others which require deeper study (see 37)
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peace Layth,
Nice to see you posting again.
Have you read these articles
What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlWhat is "al hajj" according to The Quran?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.htmlSalam Wakas.
Great to see you brother...
Must be the lockdown...I have better energy to write again )
I have had a look at the 2 links.
The Hajj article I agree with to an extent - though not that its location can be changed.
As for the Masjid Al-Haram, I skipped to the summary and saw that its not being viewed as a physical place?
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Peace TF..
So your debate is MAINSTREAM.. Who are they? Why you worry about them as if they have founded the truth.. Why people should go hand in hand with so called mainstream.. Why you decided so? Do you think they are guided so that we should discard views of others and not differentiate from them so we would be guided aright... Or is it just for the sake of keeping peace by having to go inline with them..
Next point.. Salat..
Yes salat is physical as well Salat has many other meaning..
Why you worry about those who say Salat is not prayer? Just debate within Quran that Salat is prayer and it is physical and verbal ... 'Bow with those who bow... ' .. Why do you say it is Salat.. Does QURAN teaches you so.. If so bring evidence? Get clear picture of raakiun by verse 555 OR any other rakiun verses before respond to me...Next concern.. Ramadhan and fasting and one month...
You seems to be agreeing one month as per yasummuhu (fast it)..
Fine fast it.. BUT
Is it must to fast anyway?
Do we not go to Janna if we don't fast... Is there any warning from God so..
If there is no month called ramadhan among Arabs, which month would you fast? Why you think that God asked us to fast in Arabic month... While God has not mentioned any names for months in Quran .. While He has restricted 04 months from the day He created... So are those restricted months only Arabic.. Or common..
Fasting prescribed as it was prescribed to those before you... So were they fasting in calender month Arabic... Or they were fasting as it was prescribed for them.. Or do they need to leave all those practices and fast according to Arabic month ramadhan.. While we are told prescribed for you fasting as those before you..
Isn't the verse 2187 addressing mainly previous people as they were wronging themselves by doing sex in the nights of fasting, while fasting only prescribed to the people of Quran with that very verse..
At the time of revelation of Quran there were scriptures revealed by God and fully preserved.. "Bring Torah and recite to me" is useless unless it was preserved..(people may sell the verses for petty price, but scriptures were in its real form) So, the instructions to fast would have been in Torah and Injeel unless God won't call as it prescribed for earlier people.. . Why they should leave the instructions written in them to Quran.. It's not alteration verses... it's continuation.. Fast as they fasted... Not a verse like what is prohibited foods jews made allowed by QURAN verses.. Then Torah or Injeel verse goes invalid and quran verse is valid.. But not in the case of fasting.. . Coz they were fasting and these were asked to fast first time..
How do you ensure to yourself that this is the month God ordered to fast or just fast coz everyone fasts? So for practicing God's book we need human culture and their respective months to be verified.. . I don't think so.. God gives instructions with what He created and not what human created..I agree with Layth most of the points .. It makes sense within Quran..
Taje example Haj.. God says Haj is in well known months.. Not mentioned any Arabic month by name..
2197 "The Pilgrimage is in MONTHS WELL-KNOWN; whoso undertakes the duty of Pilgrimage IN THEM shall not go in to his womenfolk nor indulge in ungodliness and disputing in the Pilgrimage. Whatever good you do, God knows it. And take provision; but the best provision is godfearing, so fear you Me, men possessed of minds"If you take above verse only as base, it would literally mean one should do haj complete well known months not for days.. But if you read other verses it clearly indicates haj is only few days within those months.. .. But only within those months.. Anyone can start haj at any time within those months.. Same for me yasummuhu is.. It doesn't mean all should start beginning of the month and complete end of the month..
Three days is very clear with verse 2184 during the heated(ramadhan shahr (month / full cycle of moon)..
So compare 2197 with 2185 .. Does both order for all believers to do haj continuously throughout well known months and fast whole month.. Simply No.. First 2183 gives order of fasting is prescribed.. Second.. 2184 orders how many days.. Third.. 2185 indicates when to fast..
Fourth.. 2187 .. How to fast and restrictions..Are you referring masjid Al haram or ancient house. ? Both physical places... If there is a new thread we can discuss and debate .
Yes.. You are confused as long as you use the phrase "in case I am wrong"...so there is possibility that you are wrong than right... All I can say come up with strong mind that you are right.. Debate with it.. Find out where your RIGHT minded approach stands.. . You will learn you are right or wrong in the end if the understandings of others did or didn't convince you after fair debate.. ..
Your last point "innovation"... If the person who debate or present his views for innovation manifestly, then he or she will end up as it is.. But if a person find there is something wrong in what majority accepts then he is not innovating but he brings his fair point with logic.. He may end up right or wrong ultimately in people's mind.. For instance what Huruf presented.. It was not innovation but her research.. That's all.. Innovation has only oneway oriented goal.. Misguidance.. Knowingly or unknowingly... Mostly with knowledge.. Difference of opinion with clean heart is not innovation..
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salam wakas
thank you for your links, ill read them )
salam good logic
i agree with you that it is a physical place and it is to thank The God for everything including animals He created for humankind
salam layth
i assume its to be different cause goong through variois posts on this forun i see that people debate evry single thing and change everything from prayer no being prostration to satan being the human mind and not an entety enemy to mankind to masjid Al Haram not physical to gog & magog being nuclear energy to ramadan being only some days etc etc
we cannot judge who truly believes in The God or not, only The God knows
i am not saying you said prayer is not physical i was just replying to the posts i have seen on other threads on the forum and i am only giving my opinion that it is physical. if it were not physical, why would we be told by The God to do wudu when we rise to prayer in chapter 5, verse 6
for “limited number of days”, well i read that part as “fixed number of days” and not limited. also limited does not mean anything btw. and let us assume it is limited, well limited number of days meaning limited to one month perhaps? it is quite clear that He tells us the Quran was sent in the month of ramadan and we should fast IT. it is a fixed number of days. nothing to do with traditions as i dont believe in traditions (including circumcision, slaughtering of sheep for 3eid etc etc naa i dont believe in that)
yes i assumed it is the same. The God tells abraham that people will come there from everywhere and to take care of the place for people who will to come to it and pray (ch 22, v26) and in chaoter 2, verse 196 i understood that pilgrimage is fo masjid Al Haram. so as abraham was told people will come form everywhere and then we are told about hajj and mention of masjid Al Haram in ch2 v196, yeah for me they are the same. for me the restricted temple is the house built by anraham and ishamel. unless pilgrimage is to masjid Al Haram and al bayt is just extra (which i doubt) look at surah 106 where we are told people will travel in winter snd summer snd to let them worship the Lord of “this house” so in my understanding they are the same and hajj is in winter and summer
regarding issue of the first house and second house i am not yet knowledgeable about that )
maybe i am wrong. well maybe you are wrong and misguiding by saying things for example that ramadan is only ten days and laylat al Qadr is in winter (you assume too much in saying that btw) others who claim salat is not physical also misguide. so what does misguide mean? should we not share our opinions?
salam jkhan
i am not concerned anout mainstream. again you miss the point. i am saying we should not start trying to be different for the sake of being different thats all. and whatever we debate we should use verses as proofs and not start being complicated and innovating.
salat euh yeah salat is prostrating. we are given specific times for salat as well as wudu and we are told how to perform it (i cld share verses if you want) and to maintain our prayers
ramadan yeah it is a must it was decreed on us like on those before us. Jannah or not for fasting it or not, well The God does what He wants. i never said anything regarding that matter. i dont really understand your other arguments abou ramadan. in any case, i never said i agree that ramadan is the month that has been fixed in islamic calendar. on the contrary i think it very well could not be the case. i believe the answer lies in surah 53, and has to do with the star sirius when it was at its highest horizon and then came closest to earth (for me that is laylat Al Qadr)
why do you assume ramadan is three days? what in 2, 184 makes you say three days?again assumptions assumptions assumption
fast IT is very clear to me to fast the monthancient house for me is the generic name and masjid Al Haram is its name.
no i cannot say i am right. i only try. remember there is a verse where The God tells us those who think they are guided by they are not. so we should not assume just cause we believe that hadiths sunnah etc are fabrications and adhere to Quran only means we are guided. The God does what He wants.
peace )
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Dear TF,
i assume its to be different cause goong through variois posts on this forum i see that people debate every single thing and change everything from prayer no being prostration to satan being the human mind and not an entety enemy to mankind to masjid Al Haram not physical to gog & magog being nuclear energy to ramadan being only some days etc etc
This forum is over a decade old. I'm sure you'll find lots of stuff from the many people that have come through. This website is open to all ideas as long as they can be backed-up with some Quranic reference - we do not mock anyone's ideas as long as the discussion is civilized and polite.
After all, what made the early Muslims go from simple nomads and farmers to become the leaders of the world in science, astronomy, mathematics, etc. was their understanding that the Quran removed all shackles from the mind and allowed them to imagine and strive...
i am not saying you said prayer is not physical i was just replying to the posts i have seen on other threads on the forum and i am only giving my opinion that it is physical. if it were not physical, why would we be told by The God to do wudu when we rise to prayer in chapter 5, verse 6
I would venture that the people who said that were finding 95 difficult to reconcile. After all, when we study the Quran, we need to take ALL verses on any particular subject into account, else the conclusion will be flawed.
For example the Sunnis rely heavily on "obey God and obey the messenger" to advocate for the credibility of Hadith as a form of law (Quran is God, Hadith is the messenger)...Yet, had they done the job of collecting all verses/data on the subject, then they would have seen that the Quran qualifies the statement later on by saying "whoever has obeyed the messenger has obeyed God" (480), meaning that God & the messenger in the area of obedience are not mutually exclusive.
for “limited number of days”, well i read that part as “fixed number of days” and not limited. also limited does not mean anything btw. and let us assume it is limited, well limited number of days meaning limited to one month perhaps? it is quite clear that He tells us the Quran was sent in the month of ramadan and we should fast IT. it is a fixed number of days. nothing to do with traditions as i dont believe in traditions (including circumcision, slaughtering of sheep for 3eid etc etc naa i dont believe in that)
Ayaam Madoodat = Limited Days (see its use in 280, 2184, 2203, 324).
The word "madooda" is used in Arabic to typically denote a number from 3-10 and no more. As you can see, the pilgrimage of 3 days in 2203 uses the same exact terminology as 2184.
Before you fast forward to 2185 which speaks of the month of Ramadhan, ask yourself what is the fast that the previous people of the Book have been upholding or exists in their books as God says it does?
Have you ever heard of a 30 day fast with the Jews or Christians?
Do they have a 3-10 day fast that they upheld in the past?
Anyway, the subject is not to turn this thread into a discussion on fasting...It is merely to point out that you are rushing to conclusions (wrong ones) without using 1736.
Even when the Quran was revealed, God tells the Prophet "not to hasten his tongue with it" because it is God who will explain it (7516-19)
yes i assumed it is the same. The God tells abraham that people will come there from everywhere and to take care of the place for people who will to come to it and pray (ch 22, v26) and in chaoter 2, verse 196 i understood that pilgrimage is fo masjid Al Haram. so as abraham was told people will come form everywhere and then we are told about hajj and mention of masjid Al Haram in ch2 v196, yeah for me they are the same. for me the restricted temple is the house built by anraham and ishamel. unless pilgrimage is to masjid Al Haram and al bayt is just extra (which i doubt) look at surah 106 where we are told people will travel in winter snd summer snd to let them worship the Lord of “this house” so in my understanding they are the same and hajj is in winter and summer
The pilgrimage is to the House (Al-Bayt). The Masjid (whether the restricted Temple or any other Temple) is either another construct or the area surrounding the Bayt/House.
maybe i am wrong. well maybe you are wrong and misguiding by saying things for example that ramadan is only ten days and laylat al Qadr is in winter (you assume too much in saying that btw) others who claim salat is not physical also misguide. so what does misguide mean? should we not share our opinions?
Why have you been given eyes, ears, and a mind if you will surrender them to others whom the devil may have misguided?
Would you rather stand before God having followed people who were misguided, or, would you rather stand before God having done your own research and thought process and only upheld what you were comfortable having verified?
"The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence." (391
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salam layth
yes obviously this is a place to share ideas. i am definatly not mocking anyone. i dont even know if what i am saying is correct. i am just giving my opinion
the word shahr is used throughout Quran to mean month. i do not see why you think it means full moon. and we are told to fast it. also the limited or fixed days could mean to fast the whole month not less not more. non?
for prayer i am not following sunni or whatever i do not recite Quran in my prayers but rather i ask forgiveness guidance mercy ... and say things we are told to say in prayer (ch 17, v111) and other mentions such as saying my life devotion death are to The God... as well as glorify The God. i do what i understand from the Quran and not what sunnis do. (i also do not pray 5 times a day)
why is there wudu? why name salats? why tell us those who ask forgiveness before fajr? why tell us to bow and prostrate? why not to be too loud or quite in prayer? why tell us maintain prayers? why say in times of war we can do 1 prostration? why say also during war a group prays whilst a group acts as vigils? why say prayers are on time? etc etcI want to add people becareful prayer is extremely important we are never told it is okay to skip it even once. even during war we must pray. please people start praying physically to The God everyday on timeand never skip even one prayer
regarding the jews or christians i mean many things have been changed so i cannot take them as reference. and if you take them as reference for fasting, why not for prayer? they physically pray albeit in their own manner but still physical. (btw there is a video in french where a rabbi talks about how prayer was like muslims but change by jews in purpose and how his people in synagogue pray like muslims (and even showing them pray like muslims))
(i am speaking in general regarding prayer and not about you layth)you are saying i am rushing to conclusions... cant we say then the same for you and everyone else who has an opinion?? is having an opinion rushing?
what is your proof about the masjid and the bayt being different?
again i am not following any group or wtver i am speaking from what i understand of the Quran
and we should not assume just because people uphold hadith that they do not believe in The God. many of them perhaps uphold the hadith because we are told to obey the messenger and thus they are afraid of The God if they do not uphold the hadith. many of them give away soo much charity, fast every year, pray all the time and every fajr as well and strive to go to what they believe is hajj etc etc and they do all that as they believe they are commands from The God (and they are indeed commands albeit prayer is not 5 times in my opinion and not reciting Wuran or saying or me tioning prophets as they do etc and hajj is not saudi arabia in my opinion too).
my point is we simply cannot say who is a true believer and who is not and who is guided and who is not. we do not know, only The God knows.
peace )
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Peace tutti_frutti.
Everyone of us would love to have a private reveletion from GOD , or in this day and age a private PM to explain every detail we have doubt about or even just basic meaning of certain words. But this is not going to happen.Why?
Because GOD keeps doing that every few generation through a messenger
Look for example what GOD said to this messenger
إِنَّكَ مَيِّتٌ وَإِنَّهُم مَّيِّتُو ثُمَّ إِنَّكُمْ يَوْمَ الْقِيَامَةِ عِندَ رَبِّكُمْ تَخْتَصِمُونَYou are gping to die and they are going to die(those that you brought the message to),then you will be arguing with each other on the day of judgement!!!. That means even followers of any present messenger have issues with his message and they disagree with some of it!!
It is no wonder we are the same. Different views/meanings/ways/...sects upon sects of the same book!!
Why would GOD keep repeating this fact to us in Qoran
حَتَّىٰ إِذَا جَاءُوهَا فُتِحَتْ أَبْوَابُهَا وَقَالَ لَهُمْ خَزَنَتُهَا أَلَمْ يَأْتِكُمْ رُسُلٌ مِّنكُمْ يَتْلُونَ عَلَيْكُمْ آيَاتِ رَبِّكُمْ وَيُنذِرُونَكُمْ لِقَاءَ يَوْمِكُمْ هَـٰذَا ۚ قَالُوا بَلَىٰ وَلَـٰكِنْ حَقَّتْ كَلِمَةُ الْعَذَابِ عَلَى الْكَافِرِينَDid no messengers from among your came to you with my message? Why would we say Yes of course!!!? Or is GOD lying to us?
Or are we going to say to GOD I understood it my way? I thought I was cleverer than the messenger? I ridiculed the messenger and my logic/cleverness was better and made more sense to me?We all have the same Qoran, does our differences not show us that GOD intended to send a messenger after Mohammed to clarify certain things? Who was it, is it or is going to be?
Of course at the end of our bickering all one can say is
قُلْ يَا قَوْمِ اعْمَلُوا عَلَىٰ مَكَانَتِكُمْ إِنِّي عَامِلٌ ۖ فَسَوْفَ تَعْلَمُونَYou work for your destiny my people and I work for mine Then GOD will judge on that day and show us our difference of opinions and views.
اللَّـهُمَّ فَاطِرَ السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ عَالِمَ الْغَيْبِ وَالشَّهَادَةِ أَنتَ تَحْكُمُ بَيْنَ عِبَادِكَ فِي مَا كَانُوا فِيهِ يَخْتَلِفُونStill all is not lost, simlpy because GOD is forever with us and we should turn to His help and guidance in all our needs and doubts.
Keep up your study and search for your truth.
GOD bless you.
Peace. -
Dear TF,
the word shahr is used throughout Quran to mean month. i do not see why you think it means full moon. and we are told to fast it. also the limited or fixed days could mean to fast the whole month not less not more. non?
I have not said that month/shar is the full moon, nor have I denied the statement that you are to "fast it". I merely pointed out that you have skipped an important part of the story by ignoring 2183-184, and that will always lead to a distorted understanding (with your posts, the fast begins in 2185 and we can pretend 183-184 do not even exist?!)
Is the fast of 182-183 and the fast of 185 the same thing?
Is Ramadhan a recurring month (the night of destiny in it is equated to 1,000 months)?
When was Ramadhan during the time of revelation - was it summer or winter or spring or autumn?
What does it mean "those who witness the month" - are not all months "witnessed"?
for prayer i am not following sunni or whatever i do not recite Quran in my prayers but rather i ask forgiveness guidance mercy ... and say things we are told to say in prayer (ch 17, v111) and other mentions such as saying my life devotion death are to The God... as well as glorify The God. i do what i understand from the Quran and not what sunnis do. (i also do not pray 5 times a day) why is there wudu? why name salats? why tell us those who ask forgiveness before fajr? why tell us to bow and prostrate? why not to be too loud or quite in prayer? why tell us maintain prayers? why say in times of war we can do 1 prostration? why say also during war a group prays whilst a group acts as vigils? why say prayers are on time? etc etc
Why have you called Al Salat "prayer"? Prayer is "Duaa" and can happen at any time with no requirements for ritual ablution or voice (like the men to pray to God when they thought they will drown on the ship and He saves them).
I want to add people becareful prayer is extremely important we are never told it is okay to skip it even once. even during war we must pray. please people start praying physically to The God everyday on timeand never skip even one prayer
Again, you are mixing prayer with Al Salat. People can and should remember God frequently when they rise and when they sleep and when they commit to something...None of that is Al Salat.
Does God need you to be clean when you pray? Does He smell you? Also, why the audible voice, does He need to hear you?
regarding the jews or christians i mean many things have been changed so i cannot take them as reference. and if you take them as reference for fasting, why not for prayer? they physically pray albeit in their own manner but still physical. (btw there is a video in french where a rabbi talks about how prayer was like muslims but change by jews in purpose and how his people in synagogue pray like muslims (and even showing them pray like muslims))
I only pointed out fasting because the Quran specifically mentioned that it was decreed "as it was decreed to those before you".
you are saying i am rushing to conclusions... cant we say then the same for you and everyone else who has an opinion?? is having an opinion rushing?
I carry out what I find to be defendable, and leave open the subjects that still need clarity/depth. You have made assumptions from the start that this is correct and that is wrong - I am simply trying to point out that you are skipping a bunch of stuff on each of these subjects - that is rushing.
what is your proof about the masjid and the bayt being different?
The Bayt/House (original) was revealed by God and its foundations raised by Abraham and Ismail. Our obligation is to make pilgrimage to the House.
The Masjid (restricted or otherwise) only gets mention during the story/life of Mohammed - meaning it could be a separate structure or the structure that encompassed the Bayt/House.
and we should not assume just because people uphold hadith that they do not believe in The God. many of them perhaps uphold the hadith because we are told to obey the messenger and thus they are afraid of The God if they do not uphold the hadith. many of them give away soo much charity, fast every year, pray all the time and every fajr as well and strive to go to what they believe is hajj etc etc and they do all that as they believe they are commands from The God (and they are indeed commands albeit prayer is not 5 times in my opinion and not reciting Quran or saying or mentioning prophets as they do etc and hajj is not saudi arabia in my opinion too).
Yes, that is called "shirk" and is an unforgivable offence if maintained until death. All good works done under this state are nullified.
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The Hajj article I agree with to an extent - though not that its location can be changed.
As for the Masjid Al-Haram, I skipped to the summary and saw that its not being viewed as a physical place?
Not a physical place, as that is the weaker of the options.
The article explains in detail why and also highlights issues/problems for various understandings, including a physical place.
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salam layth
the answer to when ramadan is is definately in the Quran as we are told the Quran is detailed and has all information. i think it is a month. for me it was clear for you something else was clear lol
what do you mean by why should we be clean? The God tells us to do wudu. He did not tell us to systematically shower but only in certain conditions. we are also told we could use soil in certain conditions. so its not to smell good i believe huh. and so what do you do with that verse about wudu? what is its purpose?
also, water perhaps repels the devil? (isnt the devil made of fire?)
The God knows why He told us to do wudu and we should uphold it
so what does it mean salat fajr and salat 3isha?? what do you make of this? what is your definition of salat please?
why would the bayt not be masjid Al Haram? bayt the generic word and its name masjid Haram maybe? whats your proof that it is not?
what do you mean I have made assumptions? are you not making assumptions too??
shirk for me means to obey the devil and not The God. you cannot call people who uphold hadith necessarily misguided and doing shirk (yes i agree that its not good to uphold hadith and the other fabrications). but you and me do not know, The God knows. we dont even know if we ourselves are guided or not.
salam wakas
i still think masjid Al Haram is physical
peace
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Salam TF,
what do you mean by why should we be clean? The God tells us to do wudu. He did not tell us to systematically shower but only in certain conditions. we are also told we could use soil in certain conditions. so its not to smell good i believe huh. and so what do you do with that verse about wudu? what is its purpose?
also, water perhaps repels the devil? (isnt the devil made of fire?)
The God knows why He told us to do wudu and we should uphold it
so what does it mean salat fajr and salat 3isha?? what do you make of this? what is your definition of salat please?
I am asking these questions so you will reflect on the mater beyond the surface understanding.
If you need to be clean (be it water or clean soil), then it means you are dealing with other people - hence the command to dress well in the Temples.
What is the purpose of gathering with these people at specific times (dawn/dusk/funeral)? If it is to pray to God, then we have already proven that you can pray to God under any circumstances and on your own (the example of Jonah or the people who were about to drown in the ship comes to mind).
If its not to "pray" then what is the gathering for? And, why should idolaters/mushrikeen uphold such gatherings?
why would the bayt not be masjid Al Haram? bayt the generic word and its name masjid Haram maybe? whats your proof that it is not?
Bayt/House is what Abraham was shown and from which the foundation was raised and the pilgrimage was called (see 2226, 2127, 397), so there is nothing that I need to show you beyond these verses to prove that the pilgrimage is to House/Bayt.
Now, if you want to make the Temple/Masjid and the Bayt/House to be one in the same, you are required to provide evidence (of which there is none).
shirk for me means to obey the devil and not The God. you cannot call people who uphold hadith necessarily misguided and doing shirk (yes i agree that its not good to uphold hadith and the other fabrications). but you and me do not know, The God knows. we dont even know if we ourselves are guided or not.
Shirk is to associate anything/anyone with God. It is the opposite of serving "God Alone" (see 3945, 4012)
Also, we know that many believers in God commit Shirk without knowing they are doing so (see 12106).
Hadith is actually worse than Shirk as it associates man-made laws with the laws of God and even overrides the laws of God in some cases (such as allowing no will to be made for relatives or stoning married adulterers to death, etc..).
We know with certainty that those who rule by other than what God has revealed are the "Kafiroon/Zalimoon/Fasiqoon (see 544-49).
So, will you still defend those whom God calls Kafiroon/Zalimoon/Fasiqoon and say "we can't know", or, will you be truthful and call things for what they are as God has called them...
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salam layth
i am confused. i do not understand your position on wudu and prayer. what do you think prayer and salat is?? im interested in your point of view
also wudu is not to pray solely in gatherings. wudu is even to pray on you own. The God says do not rise to prayer before wudu. there is no specification about gathering or not
dont the following verses (chapter, verse) show that masjid Al Haram is where pilgrimage is to be made?
(2196) (52) (919) (2225) (4825) (4827)shirk is obeying satan and outcast devil assigned to every human. it is the devil that tells humans to reject The God and make up idols and not pray and not do charity etc etc
Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - indeed, he is to you a clear enemy - And that you worship Me? This is a straight path. (36, 60-61)
And Satan will say when the matter has been concluded, "Indeed, The God had promised you the promise of truth. And I promised you, but I betrayed you. But I had no authority over you except that I invited you, and you responded to me. So do not blame me; but blame yourselves. I cannot be called to your aid, nor can you be called to my aid. Indeed, I deny your association of me before. Indeed, for the wrongdoers is a painful punishment." (14,22)
O my father, do not worship Satan. Indeed Satan has ever been, to the Most Merciful, disobedient. (19,44) although abraham’s people worship idols, abraham tells them to not worship satan
shirk is disobeying The God and following the devils (they whisper to humans to reject The God and disobey) and by obeying them people put them as partners (this results in people believing things like trinity or multiple gods and other forms of polytheism etc)
i am not defending anyone. my point is we cannot say so and so is a kafir. we have no right to say that. we ourselves do not know if we are guided.
for example maybe your and other people definition of ramadan is wrong (btw i have nooo idea why some people say it is ten days or 3 days, its just conjecture and using unrelated verses) maybe mine and other people (1 month) is wrong. maybe we dont know how to pray etc etc no one knows if they are truly guided by The God. we can only hope for The God’s mercy, guidance and forgiveness of our sins.
peace
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Peace..
I am afraid it goes well and truly off topic..@ Layth.. TF
I don't see any difference of what both says about Shirk OR mushrikun... You both bringing the Quran verses to denote shirk and what is the argument here then.. ... Both are right about Shirk..
Take this example as well..6121 "And eat not of that over which God's Name has not been mentioned; it is ungodliness. The Satans inspire their friends to dispute with you; if you obey them, you are Idolaters(mushriqun)" ...no need further elaboration by anyone coz QURAN is manifest who can be mushrik and how and why...
But I don't agree with Layth additionally saying hadith is worse than Shirk.. I don't think you have any support for that.. Of course hadith following leaving Quran and replacing quran is worse but why worse than shirk is question mark.. Action of leaving Quran to another is by getting deceived to Satan... So criteria meets with what is shirk.. Not worse is extra..
@ TF
You totally not getting what Layth saying... To know kafir you don't need science or God never ordered not to call qafir as qafir... How to call qafir then.. Mumin? Utterly ridiculous...
10901 "Say, "O disbelievers (Qafirun ) "...
If God orders to say why you stop it.. To call some qafir, one should know the qafir..
It's not difficult to find the qafir if you live with them... And if you know them what they do.
There are so many examples in Quran.. Such as qafir, mushrikun, etc.. Mumin knows them.. Unless you can't kill them Whereever you find them.. Don't get upset.. It was an order during war... And war situation.. So.. Unless you know them you will only kill mumin..
Just know them if you are believer.. Treat them well as long as they don't harm you... And be friend with them.. They are Human.. Ibrahim's father was not a Muslim or mumin.. So he only could have been a qafir. ...ibrahim prayed for him... We are human.. Live as human.. -
salam jkhan
i dont think you get my point
we cant say those who uphold hadith are kafreen and those Quran only people are not kafreen
example
if ramadan is a month and prayer is physical and to be done every evening and fajr, those who dont fast or fast only ten or three days and dont do prayers evening and fajr, are they guided? or did they fall into trap of satan and thus kafreen
same for those who fast a month and pray every evening and night and fajr, what if that is incorrect, are they guided or they fell into satan’s trap?
i am not talking about the openly atheists or polytheists etc etc i am talking about those who believe and uphold hadith, sunnah and traditions
i do not think people should boast about being guided and the others not guided and kafreen
we do not know who is guided and who is not
peace
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Thank you Jkhan.
You are correct - it is perhaps clearer to coin such behavior as Shirk and not Kufur.
Also, I agree 100% with your observation that the Quranic laws that address the Kufaar or Munafiqeen becomes completely meaningless unless such groups can be identified.
Dear TF,
I would not worry much about people who have taken partners with God...Their recompense will be with God.
If someone wants to associate partners with God (be they saints or prophets or men or jinn, etc.) then they have deal with the consequences and our job is to merely remind them that there is no compromise/substitute to God alone.
The only path acceptable to God is submission, and anything other than submission will not be accepted by Him (385).
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salam layth
indeed i agree )
And who is better in speech than one who invites to Allah and does righteousness and says, "Indeed, I am of the Muslims." (ch 41, verse 33)
peace
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salam jkhan
i dont think you get my point
we cant say those who uphold hadith are kafreen and those Quran only people are not kafreen
example
if ramadan is a month and prayer is physical and to be done every evening and fajr, those who dont fast or fast only ten or three days and dont do prayers evening and fajr, are they guided? or did they fall into trap of satan and thus kafreen
same for those who fast a month and pray every evening and night and fajr, what if that is incorrect, are they guided or they fell into satan’s trap?
i am not talking about the openly atheists or polytheists etc etc i am talking about those who believe and uphold hadith, sunnah and traditions
i do not think people should boast about being guided and the others not guided and kafreen
we do not know who is guided and who is not
peace
Salam TF..
You don't get me.. You don't get me is very common in a debate.. So that we can change what is stated previously... But in your case it's too much.. As if you have written in alien language..
Dear Brother or Sister.. I get you what you have written crystal clearly... I get you what you change with much transperancy... I skipped many things from your thread unanswered coz you twist.. And further Layth was answering you to the best..
Why I skipped is coz you used the word MAINSTREAM in your thread and later you started saying "I don't get you" and OMITED Mainstream from the wording and adjusted.. This is intentional... Your intention is clear.. You are prejudiced and cannot get out of the shackles.. Either with knowledge or without.. May be you don't perceive it..But I only came up to clarify what Layth said and your claim of qafir cannot be identified.. Just anyone who deny or belie what's revealed is Disveliever.. That's qafir... Or disbeliever is not only common to Quran but in general.. For example I am a qafir in existence of ghost..
If you want to show affection to those who follow hadith.. Show.. No harm.. But your affection won't change the sunna of God.. God is furious on those who reject His verses... That's why He promises to punish in hell fire those who reject His verses...
If you think those who follow hadith dont reject God's verses then no need to worry.. They are believers who don't reject God's verses and practice them..
But I do think they do reject God's verses in black and white.. Quran for them is just mere symbol of their religion.. But for practices of hadith is their lifeline.. To the extent without hadith NO ISLAM.. Simply they can't live without hadith..
But for believers quran is guidance and everything even they take it right or wrong they depend on it solely.. ...
Among those who follow hadith, Can anyone be a Muslim if they don't circumcise... Just think practically. The one who is not circumcised is qafir with the belief of Hadith..
What if the story is different in the eyes of God... Who is qafir then? Who gave this authority to them... Just a shameless practice of circumcision demoralizing God's perfect design.. Most of all making it religious and moreover threshold to becoming a Muslim with sheding the piece of flesh.. Simply barbaric...Simply and finally.. Those who reject the verses of God is Disveliever... Be it hadith follower or christian or jews or anyone even how good they are or how much time they spend on what they do with good intentions... Rejecting verses of God is simply rejecting God.. Their is no success by rejecting God and his verses.. Yes they think they don't reject God and they may never know they do reject God they worship daily but openly reject the verses of God.. They are simply blinded..
Don't compare believer with them.. Coz believer has a weapon.. He can always say to God on the day of ressurection I took only your verses for guidance. Forgive me if I took it wrong with my lack of knowledge... But followers of hadith has no explanation... Coz they too another book..
