Was Moses in Egypt?????
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Salam Huruf.
I don’t agree with your premise that Egypt is not Eygypt.
Firstly, having water tributaries from the same source in Arabic are all called “rivers” as seen by the Quran calling the tributaries from one single source as such (see 274)
Secondly, the title Pharoah is associated in scripts with today’s Egypt.
Thirdly, Egyptians are fond of mummification - a skill necessary for the preservation of the body of Ramsees II - the Pharaoh of Moses’s time.
Finally, there is no issue that the name ‘Misr’ may have referred to a city or province within the larger kingdom (it could be the name of the main city), whereas the country itself carried a different name.
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Fine, Layth, you believe that, the Qur'an is there for anybody to check. Your arguments to do not seem such.
Salaam
Salam Huruf.
I don’t agree with your premise that Egypt is not Eygypt.
Firstly, having water tributaries from the same source in Arabic are all called “rivers” as seen by the Quran calling the tributaries from one single source as such (see 274)
Secondly, the title Pharoah is associated in scripts with today’s Egypt.
Thirdly, Egyptians are fond of mummification - a skill necessary for the preservation of the body of Ramsees II - the Pharaoh of Moses’s time.
Finally, there is no issue that the name ‘Misr’ may have referred to a city or province within the larger kingdom (it could be the name of the main city), whereas the country itself carried a different name.
I can't follow you. I can't see see in what way what you say is answering anything I wrote. But never mind, the Qur'an is there for anybody to verify things, besides all the studies and materials in egyptology are also there.
Also obviously everybody does not have to agree on anything.Salaam
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salam
I still believe moses was in egypt
The God uses the word qariya when He mentions city as in chapter 42 verse 7 when He tells us about the mother of cities. so why would misr/masr mean city?
regarding the gates of the city well maybe they entered the capital of egypt to meet yusuf
regarding wife of so and so note that even in yusuf narrative we are told the wife of so and so (wife of governor similar in moses narrative we are told wife of pharaoh)
and for the plural of rivers, please note that during narmer (or menes) time which mamy attribute as first pharaoh, the capital was memphis which was at the mouth of the nile delta (many streams flowing from that point)
do you think its a coincidence that the word pharaoh was used for the ruler at moses time and not yusuf time, and that according to historians rulers of egypt were first kings and that at a certain moment in time they were known as pharaohs?
we do not find archeological evidence of the exodus in my opinion because if i remember a verse, The God tells us He has made prophets and messengers of before ahadiths (narratives?)
btw may we assume the exodus was crossing the nile? The God tells them to enter egypt (dont know if before or after “expdus”) so maybe they inherited egypt before crossing a second time the sea?
again look at the verse (chapter 2, verses 65-66) where The God tells the transgressors of the sabbath to be despicable apes. dont you think its what scientist call the human/ape common ancestors whose bones were found in africa? The God clearly uses an adjective to describe what kind of apes He turned the trangressors of sabbath into. He alao mentions they are a deterrent punishment to those of their generation and subsequent generations. and we have found human-ape like fossils! for me that pinpoints to sabbath transgressors being in africa and hence moses narrative being in africa/egypt
on another note, the issue with many people in this site is that they try soo much to be different from “mainstream”. do not try to be different from mainstream just for the sake of being different. we do not know who The God permitted to understand the Quran so rather than trying to be different, try to understand the Quran as it is.
i think people also overcomplicate things as in ramadan is full moon or salat is not prayer by prostration and bowing (in my opinion it is clear ramadan is a month and salat is prostration (i personally prostrate by completely lying down with chin on floor as well as “traditional prostration” and bowing)
i think ramadan has to do with when the star sirius descends and is closest to earth maybe (surah 53 holds the answer in my opinion) - i.e. perhaps ramadan is dog days of summer. from my understanding the angels guard the stars and sirius being the brightest star we can see is perhaps where gabriel is
if i am wrong along the line i supplicate The God to please forgive me and to please increase my knowledge
peace
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When one wants things to be one way one can always make anything fit anything one likes. You may call the river Nile streams when it builds a delta, fine with me. You may make the word misr mean anything you like no matter wht because you have found that naother word in the Qur'an mean this or that, fine. Everything n be twisted to fit one's prejudices. You may put streams in Egypt nd turn fir3awn into something that did not exist in aciente Egypt. There was not such word as pharao but something that is taken to be pharao and which only hasin comon with pharao but one single letter and which does not mean king. But one can always invent something to justify it.
Never mind the country of the Nile converted into a land of streams, neve mind that in all the overwhelming abundance of documentation from acient Egyp there is not even a hint of anything like the "hebrews" and the "exodus" or of anything in any way ressembling those stories.
But the most beautiful is that, Ramses II or one of his dinasty sending some recruiters to gather a force to pursue a party of escaped. Is that the same king who kept at bay fierce armies all around? Poor thing havin to gather on the spot a few armed men?
Again, the Qur'a is there. Nobody is getting paid for convincing anybody of anything, and certainly sound egos are in need of anybody talling them "you are right", but certain things, when one can spare the time and the effort, must be said, so that people who have not been exposed to the reality of Qur'an as many who have studied it thoroughly see it, may have a chance to look at it from other points of departure than whose who have been shaped by other long standing conventions.
Salaam
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See in Yusuf 12.51
قَالَ مَا خَطْبُكُنَّ إِذْ رَاوَدتُّنَّ يُوسُفَ عَن نَّفْسِهِ ۚ قُلْنَ حَاشَ لِلَّـهِ مَا عَلِمْنَا عَلَيْهِ مِن سُوءٍ ۚ قَالَتِ امْرَأَتُ الْعَزِيزِ
الْآنَ حَصْحَصَ الْحَقُّ أَنَا رَاوَدتُّهُ عَن نَّفْسِهِ وَإِنَّهُ لَمِنَ الصَّادِقِينَ ﴿٥١It says imratu-al-aziz = wife of THE Aziz with article
Aziz titleSee At taHrim 66.10-11
ضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ كَفَرُوا امْرَأَتَ نُوحٍ وَامْرَأَتَ لُوطٍ ۖ كَانَتَا تَحْتَ عَبْدَيْنِ مِنْ عِبَادِنَا صَالِحَيْنِ فَخَانَتَاهُمَا فَلَمْ يُغْنِيَا عَنْهُمَا مِنَ اللَّـهِ شَيْئًا وَقِيلَ ادْخُلَا النَّارَ مَعَ الدَّاخِلِينَ ﴿١٠﴾ وَضَرَبَ اللَّـهُ مَثَلًا لِّلَّذِينَ آمَنُوا امْرَأَتَ فِرْعَوْنَ إِذْ قَالَتْ رَبِّ ابْنِ لِي عِندَكَ بَيْتًا فِي الْجَنَّةِ وَنَجِّنِي مِن فِرْعَوْنَ وَعَمَلِهِ وَنَجِّنِي مِنَ الْقَوْمِ الظَّالِمِينَ ﴿١١﴾
it says
imara'ata luTin imra'a nuH without article
imara'ata fir3awn without articleFir3awn proper name of person
Salaam
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salam
i am not trying to make things fit. it is just clear to me that moses was in egypt. perhaps i am wrong, i never said i know for a fact.
so you say it is not egypt, so what is it then? what would make it not egypt but some other place? and what is this other place?
btw also in english and french we say the king’s wife (la femme du roi) and we also say pharaoh’s wife and not the pharaoh’s wife (la femme dE (of) pharaon and la femme dU (of the) pharaon are both correct). it doenst mean pharaoh is the name of a person.
btw just a side note, is it a coincidence that akhenaton was “erased” from history by the succeeding egyptian pharaohs and city he built amarna was layed to ruin? and also a coincidence that his wife nefertiti was erased from recorded history and no one knows for sure what happened to her or why she was erased? (remember in the Quran The God tells us pharaoh’s wife believed in The God) is it also a coincidence that she and akhenaton only had daughters?
im just guessing here it could very well not be akhenatonpeace
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The wife of fir3awn says the Qur'an, the same as the wife of Nuh and the wife of Lut,
But the wife of THE aziz,It does not say the wife of the Fir3awn, no article before fir3awn just like the wife of Nuh without article, and wife of Lut, no article with the name of the husband
But article with the name of the title,
the wife of THE aziz
Salaam
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salam
my point is it is not grammatically incorrect to say fir3awn rather than The fir3awn
so saying fir3awn only is okay to mean pharaoh. no need to say “the fir3awn” to mean a title. the rulers of egypt are called fir3awn
anyways, where was moses then ?
peace
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Can you give any instances of the same thing without the article from the Qur'an? Where is it said that the article is correct and still mean the same as without the article? Articles have a purpose, there are not there or are there for nothing.
As to where it was, there were long debates int he forum as it being in Southwestern Arabian Paninsula, Yemen and surroundings, where really there are streams and there were indeed many kingdoms or domains. But I have no interest in convincing anybody of anything, again. whoever is interested should verify her or himself for her or his own benefit.
Salaam
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Salam,
Pharaoh being a title or the name of the first person who used it does not make any difference.
Julius Ceaser (proper name) was the first to adopt his name as a title, and all that followed were named "Ceaser".
We know that "Al Firoun" (the family of Pharaoh) are mentioned several times in the Qur'an and that God is very angry with them all (He condemns them to the worst punishment in Hell 4046).
Nothing in the Quran contradicts the argument that Egypt (Nile area) is the same Egypt mentioned by God.
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Everything in the Qur'an contradicts Musa and Yusuf being in Egypt. But nobody is bound to agree either on one thing or the oher.
However, a streams and one river, I still find the Nile to miss, and very much. Specially when it is a matter in which pretended Egypt and egyptians are involved. Unbelievable. Streams under but no Nile.
The day Egyptians recover some self respect will recover also their past marred by an undocumented attribution unde th eguise of religion. Because again, nothing, but nothing, not even a small piece has been found corroborating anything of that.
The idea of the King of Egypt at its most powerful sending some recruiters to gather a force to pursue some people...
Salaam
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I don't see the contradictions you keep bringing up. Let's break it down into some smaller discussion points
Q. Can one river spawn many rivers?
A. Yes, according to 274, one point (in this case a rock with water gushing through it) may spawn forth many rivers (anhaar).
Q. Is ancient Egypt a land of many such rivers?
A. Yes, looking at the ancient kingdom which was based out of Memphis, the kingdom was situated on the Nile Delta which had many rivers flowing around/in it.
Q. Can Pharaoh be a name and a title?
A. Yes, it can be the name of the person who first took this mantle (which is why the Quran refers to the extended family of Pharaoh as "Al" Firawn).
Q. Did ancient Egypt undergo a "drought" as mentioned in the story of Joseph?
A. Yes, according to a rock inscription, ancient Egypt went through a 7 year drought (https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Famine_Stela).
Q. Would the Pharaoh call for people to be recruited to pursue a rag-tag group of commoners?
A. Not sure what the point of this question is, but if the Quran says it happened (2653), then it must have. Pharaoh would have been a broken man by this time after years of plagues infested the land (7130) and he and his people would have been completely broken and exhausted.
Q. Has any Egyptian king's body been found preserved after all these centuries (in fulfillment of 1092)?
A. Yes, the body of Ramsees II was found mummified (having lived till old age) https//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ramesses_II
I would finally conclude with a link to an interesting article "Who Was Imhotep?" which speaks of Prophet Joseph being the famous Egyptian Vizier Imhotep
https//free-minds.org/who-was-imhotep
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salam
I do not see contradictions either in moses being in egypt
if you (huruf) say it is not egypt, what is it then?
we have to becareful not to start interpreting and being different from mainstream just for the sake of being different.
we should not let satan fool us. it is not because many of us refute hadiths etc and believe that only the Quran (and the other Books The God metions in Quran such as Injeel) is from The God and is complete that we are necessarily guided by The God. remember, The God does what He wants, and He guides whom He wants.
people claiming to follow only the Quran start interpeting things as in salat is not prostration (salat is sujud an prostration and supplicating The God for forgiveness mercy and guidance etc..) or ramadan is only a couple of days or masjid al Haram is not a physical place etc i mean come on people stop innovating
and for those who claim 19 magic number i mean come on how different are you from the other sects. you took away verses form the Quran without any right. That clearly shows that you do not believe the Quran to be preserved by The God. and seriously, its pretty obvious (to me) that 19 refers to angels who guard(?) the fire (not hell but the fire) - and i believe that hell is earth and the 7 skies/universes (The God says something like 7 heavens and the likes of earth so perhaps also 7 earths and remember that hell has 7 abwab (doorways, gates, segments?))
anyways my point is people should stop interpeting and all just for the sake of being different.
dont let satan fool you. shirk is not just openly worshipping idols or others but following the devil and falling into his traps. the devil also makes people think what they do is great whilst it is disobeying The God (following idols and disobeying The God such as in not giving charity or maintaining your prayers etc and pehaps innovating!)
Did I not enjoin upon you, O children of Adam, that you not worship Satan - indeed, he is to you a clear enemy, And that you worship Me? This is a straight path. - (chapter 36, verses 60 and 61)
peace
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Dear TF,
Yes and no to what you have said.
We should always be weary of the devil diverting us and letting us create new idols, yet, at the same time, we are commanded by 1736 not to uphold what we have not been able to verify.
There is no absolute wrong idea until we have allowed all avenues of an idea to be explored and debated - the truth can withstand extended scrutiny.
For example, sujood is physical in some instances when done by humans in the Quran. However, it is not physical when the stars or trees or even angels do it (hence the idea has merit and debate).
Also, fasting is both for a number of days and a month - depending on the reader seeing 2 separate fasts or 1 single fast in the verses.
The prophet is called Ahmed, but also Mohammed - which allows a deeper look at the historic character and where he was from.
Abraham left part of his progeny at the restricted House to guide people, yet Lot is from Abraham’s progeny (so is this about Lot or Ismail or Isaac)?
God refers to the House, the ancient House, and the restricted House...are they the same?
God refers to Bakka and Mecca...are they the same?
God refers to the restricted Tenple and the farthest Temple...are they the same?
God calls all people to pilgrimage, yet the restricted Temple is closed off to idolaters?
The list goes on, but the idea is that everything is debatable as long as we don’t create idols of these ideas and put them above God.
We only fail if we stop challenging our own understanding and cease to search for truth.
This life is about serving God and only God.
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salam layth
hope you are doing well
my opinions
there are not many ways, there is one way in sens that ramadan is either some days or a month, prayer is either physical or not etc. we should strive to find it yes, but not by interpeting where there should be no interpretation. i believe the Quran is to be taken at face value.
- prayer - yes existence submits to The God the moon is in an orbit and its phases are layed out and it does other things like regulate tides, the sun lightens the earth is in an orbit and sends energy to earth, the trees grow and provide oxygen and others things etc etc all creation follows the order and purpose that it has been created for. humans have been given the choice and we should obey The God. within those commands is to prostrate physically. The God mentions specific salats (evening (sunset to susk and throughout the night) and fajr) and on the day of gathering.
if salat were to just obey Him, why name the salats? are we not supposed to obey Him all the time? The God also says to bow down with those who bow (surah 2 verse 43)
The God also tells us to not be loud or too quiet in our prayers but in between, and to say what is said in verse 111 of surah 17. He also tells us those who seek forgiveness before dawn. so for me its clear, prayer is to bow and fall to our faces and supplicate Him for forgiveness and guidance
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abraham mentions that The God gave him isaac and ishmael (and jacob as well perhaps as grandson). he never mentions that The God gave him lot. The God tells us that abaraham says he put of his progeny in the restricted temple to pray, and there is also a verse in the Quran where The God tells us that ishmael used to push his kin to prayer. so for me it was clear ishmael was in the restricted temple and not lot (if i remember well there is a verse where The God mentions that there is peace in the restricted temple whilst lot’s city was destroyed although maybe city destroyed but temple remained intact)
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the farthest mosque for me could maybe mean limi of the tree of the outmost boundary (limit of the tree ie something like the cosmic tree that all religions have example yggdrasil) i think The God permitted the prophets and messengers to go to the outmost boundary near which there is paradise (but they have not seen paradise i believe) in order to witness the creation and strengthen their beliefs.
i am not yet knowledgeable about the restricted or ancient temple issue and mecca bakka (although i believe it is not mecca in saudi arabia but perhaps the monastery in petra) once i forge an understanding on that matter ill revert to you.
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The God says whoever witnesses the month let him fast IT, not fast a part of it or within it or whatever an answer for ramadan is in surah 53. and from surah 106 i think hajj is in summer and winter so ramadan is other than that. (unless restricted months are consecutive and hajj is in a restricted month)
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regarding ahmed and mohammed i do not have an opinion on it yet apart perhaps in area and language of jesus (hebrew? aramaic?) mohammed is mentioned as ahmed just like yusuf is jospeh
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i am not knowledgeable yet about the issue with all mankind invited to restricted temple but not idolators, but why would idolators go to the restricted temple that is dedicated to The God?
to conlclude, in my opinion the Quran should be read as a whole and taken at face value. example when The God says He made pigs and apes from humans well He literally did that (that is why apes and pigs are very similar to humans and why pork is forbidden) so we should maybe read the Quran and stop interpreting left and right
i may be wrong allll along the line lol but i take the Quran at face value
peace
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Peace...
I do agree with Huruf with certain points what she claims... Coz it was her choice after perceiving ... I don't like to call Egypt since there is no Egypt in Quran.. let's keep as Misr (however it is pronounced).. But I don't agree with her that Misr being only a city... Misr according to Quran is a well planned country which has a city and and surrounded with rivers and agriculture and farming... A perfect nation...
If you go through all the occurences of Misr in Quran that you can't deny that unless blinded.. Misr was called as Kingdom as well...4351 " And Pharaoh called out among his people; he said, "O my people, does not the kingdom of Misr (Mulk Misr)belong to me, and these rivers flowing beneath me; then do you not see?"
No need to call kingdom of city.. Unless one thinks so.. Even verse 261 is a great nation which produces all fruits..King pharoa can't simply rule a huge City.. He needs the resources reaching to his city.. That's not inside the city but outside... So it's a massive kingdom ... Being the ruling place in a huge city.. That's Misr... So it can merely mean a massive city as well as the whole kingdom that massive city belongs to... Kings were not ruling only cities... They rule nations of kingdoms..
Read carefully all Misr verses within the context..
Next point is location in our current world...
I don't think it matters much like it matters where is masjid Al haram or ancient house or where Muhamed lived... Coz people claim Mohamed lived in current Day makka so they keep circumnavigate or rather rounding allegedly called ancient house. So that's worth a research than musa.
Okay any how.. Question is before knowing, Was Musa from Misr, better to know who was Musa?
Can anyone say who was He? That's it...One thing to note is Rome is Rome still Misr is Misr .... Can anyone change the location of Rome? Then why to change Misr..
Musa was everywhere... wasn't he?
** He is one of those who fought to deliver Children of Israel...so he has connection with Israel.. Where is Israel? Fair question right...
** Musa was in Midean at least 8 years... Where was Midean? Not far from where he escaped... Isn't it? At least outside pharoa's control.. Coz old man called musa "you are safe here"
** And musa was in Misr 10"87..
So did he live only in Misr..?Aren't these places all close-by that Musa could manageby..
If anyone claim it is Yemen current days the southern peninsula of Arabia then all above three locations should be in very close proximity to Yemen..
Before Quran many glaring books were revealed.. So all those should be concerned with Yemen..
But Romans were in Yemen and remnants are still there though not in Makka . But previous scripture holders have no concerns of Yemen but areas of Jordan Israel lebonan etc. Area.. Why they neglected Yemen if their ancestors connected to Yemen..No more comments.. There is truth.. Perceive it...
@ TF.. I won't agree with your emotions.. Let people search and debate.. Don't worry God will guide whoever deserves.. If guided they cannot have chosen the wrong path... No guidance with wrong path..
God knows the guided ones.. You can't take quran at face value in everything.. . Explore and let God guide if God wills and if He doesn't then that's the end of right path..Unless you know truth without doubt argue with it till you get convinced by others view.. Afterall you are totally in a confused state as per what you have written above.. Then why you try to stop others being exploring and presenting their view.. Right and wrong is always clear to the guided ones and God knows them..
Peace... -
peace Layth,
Nice to see you posting again.
God refers to the House, the ancient House, and the restricted House...are they the same?
God refers to the restricted Tenple and the farthest Temple...are they the same?
God calls all people to pilgrimage, yet the restricted Temple is closed off to idolaters?
Have you read these articles
What is the meaning of al masjid al haram according to The Quran?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-masjid-al-haram-Quran.htmlWhat is "al hajj" according to The Quran?
http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html -
Peace All.
Those who are doing the rounds with subjects from Qoran will notice that some subjects will stay interpreted differently depending on where the "logic / understanding/search/. of the individual.." lies.
Bringing "proofs" can also be pointless, because the past can never be brought with it. So it is each to their proof/fact/...As for history ,well what can one say ,except there is some history that is agreed on by many but still disputed by others. The devil can sometimes be in the details. And this is where we differ. Can humans tell lies? Of course they can. Can humans distort the truth? Of course they can.. Can history be written and controlled by the "Victors" ? Of course it can.... And so on.
So how are we to check/ use 1736 on many subjects and issues of the past? Why did Qoran only deal with certain people and sometimes left some details out? One can only say Qoran is not a history book but a message. I will come to my point at the end of this post.
For example if one tried to search Moses history and came up to this
https//www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/73398/jewish/Moses.htmDo they believe all of it? Is there any distortions/?...etc.
One can use Qoran to chreck, some details agree but others differ...Then we move on to another side of the same story like for example
https//www.ancient-origins.net/history-famous-people/moses-0012411And so forth....One can compare /analyse...But still little issues will arise. So what is the solution that gets us to the truth?
This is where I go back to my earlier point that Qoran is a message not a history book first and formost.
What is the message that will unite all its students?
I say it is the call to "Sirat Al Mustaqueem". Qoran has come to unite us on this very important path so that we can live in peace and harmony with each other ,now in our present time.As for other subjects ,like this one, it does not matter an iota who is right or wrong. The lesson of Moses will give us the motivation to better our lives not where he was or the exact location of the people and place.
Thise who have the truth should be to their own satisfaction,not others. They can only share it ,not ram it down throats..
Brothers and sisters, discuss by all means, but remain united and do not divide because of issues that do not matter.
Yes of course bring in your views, you are all welcome.
GOD bless you all.
Peace. -
salam jkhan
i am not saying people should not debate. on the contrary i think we most definately should
what i am saying is that we should not start interpreting and trying to be different from mainstream for the sake of being different (thats my debate lol)
example prayer The God me tions specific prayers and tells us not to be too loud or quiet. He also tells us to bow with those who bow. why start saying salat is not physical and interpreting and all. is it not salat is physical non?
or ramadan, He tells us to fast IT, so is it not clear it is the month?
or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.
i am not confused i have my opinions i just do not want to say things that could misguide in case i am wrong and as such i say that i could be wrong lol
so yeah let us definately debate i am just saying (debating ) ) we should not innovate just to be different especially where the words are clear
peace
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or when He says people’s faces look to the sky and as such to face the restricted temple. is it not clear too it is a physical place? and that abtaham and ishmail laid its foundations.
It seems you are equating al masjid al haram and al bayt. What is your evidence for that?
