If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?
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I agree 100% with whats being said here.
Personnally, I find it completely fusterating... I feel like in some parts of being a Quran Alone (or on Free-minds) all it has done was unveil Islam...
however in a negitive way for me.http//i40.photobucket.com/albums/e244/Cachet_Cats/Supplies/Yarnball.png
Like a Yarn ball that keeps rolling, and as it rolls and unveils...you loose Salat, then you loose Hajj, then you Loose Ramadan, then you loose Jumma, Then you loose certain laws (because people interprete the legal aspects differently), the you loose community, then you loose What "Allah" even means...Then you Loose what the Quran even means... then before you know it..the Yarn ball is completley un-rolled and you are left with the Center of it all NOTHING.Unsure about Salat, Unsure about Hajj, Unsure about Allah, and Unsure about the Quran. Its something that has been bothering me for a long time.
I find it incredibly unbelieveable that Some people cant even understand what the Quran even means or says. we cant even agree in matters from the Most simple like salat...or the most severe like Legal Proceedures.
There is no Community, No Unity. Just Individuals following whatever they want...(which then makes me feel like whats the point then of even being religious if your just going to do what you want anyways)?When Muhammad had the Ummah, It was ONE CHAIN, ONE COMMUNITY, like Ants or Bees. Collectivly working together and Establishing one of the Worlds Biggest/Greatest Empires that would span from Europe to Asia and other parts of the world and would lead the world in Science for over 900 years.
Then something else happened...
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/the-broken-chain1.jpgand because that happened to the Ummah....
This happened to the rest of the world...
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/jingo.jpg
http//i5.photobucket.com/albums/y154/blindedhermit/globalist.jpg
http//i138.photobucket.com/albums/q270/rickrivero305/12-1.jpgI just want the Ummah to be one/strong again.
We dont have to Agree on Everything...but at least figure out a way to be unified again.
I believe in the 5xs day Ritual prayer, and am fine coexisting with those who dont. -
Salam peoples!
I understand what you mean RA786. Even though I believe that our connection with God is a personal one, there are some things that we need to do together such as salat and hajj.
Thanks, I think it is such a strong feeling when you do salat with others and stand in rows. Call it Ritualistic, but it deffinatly is a good way to feeling united or nsync with everyone and everything...(Especially when you pray outdoors).
Its like everyone is focusing/meditating on the same Goal/thing.Like Bee's that all focus on the Collony. or Cells that all focus on the body. there is much power in unity both physically and Spiritually. D
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I have been a member of this Forum for quite some time, even though I lost my password and had to re-register thus showing as a newbie. After reading the arguments for Salaat amongst everything else on this Forum and by the PM's, I have reverted back to the way I was traditionally taught even though I do not recite the Tashahhud, rather I recite parts of the Quran in line with the following ayat
7320 (Asad) BEHOLD, thy Sustainer knows that thou keepest awake nearly two-thirds of the night, or one-half of it, or a third of it, together with some of those who follow thee. And God who determines the measure of night and day, is aware that you would never grudge it and therefore He turns towards you in His grace. recite, then, as much of the Qur?an as you may do with ease. He knows that in time there will be among you sick people, and others who will go about the land in search of God's bounty, and others who will fight in God?s cause. recite, then, as much of it as you may do with ease, and be constant in prayer, and spend in charity, and lend unto God a goodly loan for whatever good deed you may offer up in your own behalf, you shall truly find it with God - yea, better, and richer in reward. And seek God's forgiveness behold, God is much-forgiving, a dispenser of grace!
Salaat for me is a combination of Standing, Bowing and Prostrating all at specifiied times, just as I was taught with only the Quran being recited and nothing else. I honestly do feel relieved that I have walked away from the confusion on this Forum about the concept of Salaat and feel at peace with myself and Allah SWT praying in this manner. I do pray 5 times a day, fast, pay zakat and will do Hajj the way it is currrently done at Mecca and make no apologies about this stance. I believe it is the right way for me after evaluating and re-evaluating all the arguments and counter arguments from both sides of the spectrum.
Peace
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Much love to you brother/sister Zulu12,
I find myself in the same stance, except for the hajj.
Currently I believe that I will do the Hajj at Mecca (without kissing the stone or participating in any idoltry things against Allah or Islam)
and will also make my hajj at jerusalem as well.I figure that I may be wrong on either one of the two places, however, I feel hopefull that Allah may perhaps accept my hajj and sincereness in going to both places since I am unsure.
I feel hopeful also that my traditional salat will be accepted.
Today I had a Realization....
What Practice is Un-acceptable from Allah?
Answer SHIRK.So Is Following Tradition ENTIERLY WRONG? I Honestly do not think so. I think that it is impossoble NOT to follow Tradition. I think that Whether you come from Asia, or America , or Iran , or Saudi Arabia, or even England...You will Practice Islamic Monotheism...however Will have some type of Tradition that you are following in your life. and if you dont...you will then make/start one that your children may follow.
I dont think Tradition is bad. I dont think it is even Forbidden. I think Islam is a Universal religion that Accepts ALL TRADITION...as long as it abides by this one Rule
NO SHIRK/abides by the Quran
Therefore I ask evereyone...Is Tradition that doesnt have Shirk and is till withing the confinds of the Quran...STILL Haraam?
I think NO.
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Dear RA786
I understand your predicament concerning Hajj, but for me it will be Mecca. I take this stance beause as I stated in another post regarding Hajj. (see below)
.......Anyway, getting back to the topic at hand, I am of the opinion that Hajj is at Mecca without a shadow of a doubt in my mind and for me, plus the Quran confirms it. I will inshaallah fulfill this duty one day soon.
597 (Asad) God has laid down that the Ka'bah, the Inviolable Temple, shall be a symbol for all mankind; and and the garlanded offerings meant to make you aware that God is aware of all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth, and that God has full knowledge of everything.
Furthermore
2158 (Asad) behold, As-Safa and Al-Marwah are among the symbols set up by God; and thus, no wrong does he who, having come to the Temple on pilgrimage or on a pious visit, strides to and fro between these two for, if one does more good than he is bound to do-behold, God is responsive to gratitude, all-knowing.
2198 (Asad) you will be committing no sin if you seek to obtain any bounty from your Sustainer. And when you surge downward in multitudes from `Arafat, remember God at the holy place, and remember Him as the One who guided you after you had indeed been lost on your way;
Kaabah, Safa, Marwah and Arafat are not in Jersalem. They are in Mecca. Additionally, I do not believe or accept that the Prophet Mohammed PBUH was born and raised in Jerusalem as some members have incorrectly stipulated. It was KSA.
Peace
If ever the security situation changes in Jerusalem I will visit inshallah, but not as a pilgrimage, but to pray at the Dome of the Rock and Masjid Al Aqsa for my own personal fulfillment.
Peace
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I just want the Ummah to be one/strong again.
We dont have to Agree on Everything...but at least figure out a way to be unified again.
I believe in the 5xs day Ritual prayer, and am fine coexisting with those who dont.Malcolm X comes to mind when you say this. Who said we aren't or cant be unified? what is unity? if you believe you can't be unified you won't be unified. the brotherhood was unified by people wanting that unity, who wants that unity can be part of that unity with hands open, people who don't want it no problem.
we can be unified! nothing is stopping us except ourselves. we just think we can't be unified and come up with impossible excuses and the media just blows that picture out to incite more hatred, fear and excuses.
just think of people in iraq for example and sunni/shia factions and how media portrays things. definitely people in both creeds will cringe at the other because of atrocities that happened. even quranists will be biased against traditionalists. everyone is an individual before they're a community.
before it used to be the black man who was seen in negative light, today with the media it's the muslim. it's the middle eastern or a guy with the beard on the train and some lady or guy on the opposite side thinking could that be a terrorist?. it's the person who reads a resume and see's the name "mohammed" and thinks "ah muslim", it's the lady at the shop who talks english really slowly and loud because she thinks the lady in a veil can't speak english, or some loser yelling out "go back to your country"...
the prejudice of muslims is there and maybe not as big as previous injustices but it's there and it's only getting worse. the media is easy to get to masses, it's doing it's job by blowing things out of proportion, influencing a particular bias etc and it will continue to do what it's out to do.
If we let our bias, fears and anger get to us well, we'll prob be like this forever. but if we're wise enough to realise hey we all agree on quran and god, let us support each other. it don't matter if you pray the ritual 5 times a day or if i read quran twice. that's between you and god. At least we can unite on things we agree on.
anyway sorry for ranting.. it just makes me wonder how everyone wants unity yet seems to think it'll never be possible unless we all do everything exactly the same way and if we can accept different methods, why is unity an issue?
peace
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well first off, you are right...
however there is a Constant fear that if we dont do things togeather...then we wont be unified.
like if we dont pray at the same time, go to hajj togeather, go to the jummah togeather etc...then we wont be unified.
we will all be sperated and individual and broken up.This is a constant fear i guess.
Also, I feel that if we cant even agree on a Quranic Constatution that we cant even begin to imagine a Quranic State/country.
(i know this isnt everyone, just a General statement.)Its easier to have a revolution if everyone Agrees and feels the same way about the Revolution. however if everyone has their own view on the revolution, and want to do their own revolution and doubt eachothers revolution, then there will be no revolution.
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Thanks wakas for the wise saying, however I dont understand how it can be applied to this....
I dont see the Cup being empty as a good thing... I think the cup to be empty and broken at the bottom, therefore nothing will ever be able to be put in it again. -
You seem to think muslims are not human. Humans do many things together! Being muslim and finding another muslim you?ll do more things together! Surely..
Ok I might not pray like you do but we can facilitate a place for us to pray in mutual times, or even have different times. an ijma, a consensus could be set up e.g. congregational pray on a certain day/time with particular method, a later time another method.. life is only as complicated as the choices you choose or make. And most of the time you can make your own choices even if you can?t see it. that being said people shouldn?t be out for the impossible and I mean the literally impossible.
Salat and hajj isn?t everything a community does together. There are other things that make up a community.
The only thing breaking us up is ourselves. ?s/he believes this! How could they, I?m not associating with them, they?re on the black list? so ok they believe some weird nonsense doesn?t mean you can?t be respectful etc. AT WORK! Dude at work people are united why? Cos they know they have to respect each other and tolerate the difference. There are some ground rules they all agree on, even not agree on but they have to tolerate it based on an agreement. I?m sure mulims will have things they agree on.
Btw you make out unity is so tough and so hard it?s not achievable. just about all the traditionalist say the same thing. the non muslims.. I bet they love it that we?re making excuses, I bet they want us to think it?s impossible. Because they fear us, they fear what they don?t know (generally speaking).
We won?t agree on everything and that?s everyone.. I think in this generation or future generations a quranic constitution would have some sort of consensus. How do you think traditionalists did it? take imam malik for example, his work is based on muslims in Medina and based rulings on consensus. Some things are open for that not everything is black or white some bits are gray.
We all agree we should have our rights, I bet most here agree on no interest, free choice of clothing, rights at work to perform salah, a place to learn Arabic/Quran, giving money/assets to the less fortunate, eating lawful food (and having access to it)... Why can?t a community who have various opinions work on these or other things? you really think muslims can?t be united on things they agree on? if someone takes your country on in a war and you?re in the wrong place at the wrong time.. nothing matters, you want you and your people safe because if they?re not safe you?re not safe. So you hold whatever grudge you have with your neighbour and you fight, you fight for that right, the right to be safe. So you?re united why can?t we unite like that? Why do we miraculously dream of some guy taking on the world and having muslims automatically appear with him supporting him? Why can?t we unite on things we agree about?
Your perception of empty cup is purely a negative one, you created the ?broken? aspect to the cup to justify the negativity. the cup is empty not broken P all it needs is for you to fill it and if it?s full well just drink it or empty it..
Notice there?s no giving up it?s all pro-activeness, it?s doing something but in your mind you gave up and decided the cup is broken. Truly the mind is amazing we can make ourselves believe things without even realising.
Peace )
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RA786, maybe you're looking for an imaginary answer and the Quran is concerned about other stuff.
To me, there's no set way of praying. Salat is not even praying. Salat is linking up to God in a number of ways.
When you need to 'squeeze' an answer from Quran, that means Quran is unconcerned about the subject.
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If I can ask some naive questions.
How many of your prayers are ritualistic and how many are just 'talking to' Allah?
Do you only pray 5 times a day or can you pray whenever you feel?
Javed seems to be concerned about what he is praying? Isn't all prayer, honestly meant, good?
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I dont see the Cup being empty as a good thing... I think the cup to be empty and broken at the bottom, therefore nothing will ever be able to be put in it again.
Well this is your perception more so than reality, if we assume the cup to be normal (i.e. unbroken).
Interestingly, your short response may provide an insight into an age old problem that affects all of us, and is not only exclusive to islam or faith etc. You see, when a cup is empty it is at its peak of receptivity, it has never been more ready to receive, it is uncluttered/unpolluted/untainted, it is open and embracing to whatever flows into it.
I wonder, if we were to ask all those who have continued walking the path of Quran based islam and continued to increase their knowledge in this area what has held you back the most from your understanding of The Quran? Could it be not being able to access a Classical Arabic dictionary? not knowing Arabic? not being able to ask an Imam? Or would they answer 'themselves'?
I know from my own experience, the more I have learnt about myself, the more I have removed my bias/upbringing/desires, the more I have strived to empty my cup, the more The Quran has flowed into me. It truly is a book all about us, therefore if one's cup is full, no more can go in. Empty/free your mind, as the saying goes empty your cup.
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Unfortunately, this is the real quagmire RA786.
Some people think Salaat is not praying, some people think it is 'a link up via the cell phone', some people think it is yoga, some people think it is watching T.V., some people think it is posting on this Forum and some people think it is a load of baloney amongst numerous other ideas of it's meaning. This is an exammple of just one element of the lack of consensus and unity that you are looking for.
The problem is that everyone seems to be inclining towards their interpretation of the Quran as individuals to be the correct way without giving any due to the Prophet PBUH. I have 2 cousins out of which 1 teaches Quranic Arabic to the Arabs in Saudia, whilst the other specialises in the Science of A'Hadeeth in Saudia. They are both Western born and educated in Mathematical Science and Computer Programming but have studied Islam at Al Azhar in Egypt, in Jordan, in Syria and Saudia respectively. They have both memorized the Quran by heart plus they have access to scholars both in Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Saudia and Europe if need be to clarify anything. Each time I have thrown something at them, they have always come back with an answer. And believe me, this has been ongoing for a number of years. One thing they did say to me which has stuck with me ever since was 'if Allah SWT wanted each and every individual to interperate the Quran in there own manner, they why did he choose the Prophet PBUH to convey the message? Why not just leave it on a rock and let everyone have a go? The Quran would still be protected and guarded as it is now, but each man/woman to himself/herself? This is exactly what is happening with the PM movement as I see it..
Additionally, they also state that the Quran is better understood once you get a grasp of the Arabic language rather than Non Arabic translations. Some people here will disagree with this stance but I on the other hand tend to agree with my cousins Pro Arabic stance. I do believe that every Believer should learn Arabic at some point of time in their life in order to Recite the Quran and listen to the beauty of it's recitation which is also mentioned in the Quran.
583 When they listen to that which hath been revealed unto the messenger, thou seest their eyes overflow with tears because of their recognition of the Truth. They say Our Lord, we believe. Inscribe us as among the witnesses.
The Truth came in Arabic. It could easily have come in Mayan to the Mayan civilisation, but it didn't and Allah knows best. The Quran was revealed in Arabic to be recited in Arabic and to be understood in Arabic for all mankind. You don't see it being recited in English, French, Spanish etc etc during the Friday prayer or at any other prayer time?
Like I said previously, unfortunately I found too much confusion and lack of unity/consensus here, which really is not for me and thus my stance of praying the way I was taught. If it means going to the Masjid and praying in congregation, then so be it.
Peace
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RA786 and Zulu12 I agree with you 100%
I also like very much Wakas' analogy of the cup being empty, which has truth, but I'm afraid it misses the point.
The importance of congregation in communities should never be misunderstood or belittled.
I've always been interested in how communities work, which is why I chose to study architecture. So I've had plenty of opportunities to read books on communities and the ways in which different cultures function and live.
I also have a degree in International Business, which forced me to study politics and economics. The benefit of that was that I learnt the importance of other thinkers in politics and economics, and the faults of the current worldwide system.I think that the capitalist system is the single biggest element in the way we live today. I believe that the socialist and anarchist method of existence of the past were much wiser ways of living. This is expressed by the number of intellectuals that are anarchists or socialists today.
Now back to my point about Islam in life today
The Islamic culture that RA786 mentions was not a capitalist one, it was an anarchist/socialist one. Communities lived and prospered in relative isolation, where the people worked together to form their communities and their local identities.The reason the Islamic empire of the time prospered is because it was by and large united. Christian Europe was warring against itself, Africa was as divided as it is now, and Central Asia was in disarray. If you read into the history of the period, you'll find that Egypt, the Persian Empire, and the Byzantine Empire all fell because they were divided and replete with internal fighting. The small Muslim community was not.
Then fast forward to World War 1, when the Ottoman Empire fell. The English and the French divided up the Middle East. The map of the Middle East today means absolutely nothing. It was drawn up by a man called Arthur Balfour, and he did it by drawing lines on an empty map. Pick up any academic history text about this period and you'll see what I mean. The English pumped money to the Sherif of Mecca, whose family were the descendants of the Prophet. His family had run Mecca since the days of the Prophet, for 1500 years. They pumped money to him so that he could raise up an army that would divert the attentions of the Ottoman army, so that the Allies could defeat the Ottomans at the Bosphorus Straight (because the Ottomans were allied with the Germans). The Sherif of Mecca was too old himself to take part in the battles, so he sent his oldest son, Feisal.
In return for his help in breaking the Ottoman Empire, the English promised the Sherif of Mecca that he would become the sole ruler of a single Arab Empire.
To make a long story short, the English sent T.E. Lawrence (more famously known as Lawrence of Arabia) to help Feisal. They conquered town after town from Aqaba to Jerusalem to Damascus.
Finally they conquered Damascus. And what happened?The Arabs stormed into the Victoria Hotel, and they began to squabble.
They squabbled and the city could not function. The water didn't work and there was no electricity. There was a hospital overrun with dying Ottoman soldiers.Feisal named himself King of a united Arab nation, and Damascus was his capital.
That nation lasted around 2 weeks.
Then the French invaded. They had demanded the area as their protectorate, according to a secret agreement called the Sykes-Picot Agreement (http//en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sykes-Picot), where the English and French divided up the Middle East into "zones of influence".
After that the English and French created the modern map of the Middle East. Feisal went to the UN to claim that he was wronged and this was illegal. They decided to name him King of the newly created state - Iraq. His younger brother Abdullah, became King of Jordan. Saudi Arabia was overrun by the warlord Ibn Saud, whom the English had also been paying. Lebanon was created by the French to be a Christian homeland. Kuwait was created to be a small state controlled by the English from where they could police the region.
is beneficial to us, because it marches with our immediate aims, the break up of the Islamic 'bloc' and the defeat and disruption of the Ottoman Empire, and because the states would set up to succeed the Turks would be ? harmless to ourselves ? The Arabs are even less stable than the Turks. If properly handled ...they would remain in a state of political mosaic, a tissue of small jealous principalities incapable of cohesion
- T.E. Lawrence, Memo 1916
Wa?l S. Hassan "Lawrence, T. E." The Oxford Encyclopedia of British Literature. David Scott Kastan. Oxford University Press 2005.
Now why is this story important?
Because it teaches us about unity
Had the Arabs been united, there would have been one Muslim Kingdom, in control of most of the world's oil. All the natural resources of Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Kuwait, UAE - all under the control of one nation. Israel would never have been created.
No Lebanese civil war, no Palestinian/Israeli conflict, no Iran/Iraq war, no invasion of Kuwait.To me the past 500 years have been a second period of Jahiliyya
What bothers me is the view of many people that we would technically be united since we all follow the Quran and God alone... no.
There is a reason why the Hajj is to be performed in congregation according to the Quran.
There is a reason why Salat is to be performed in congregation according to the Quran.
There is a reason why Friday prayers have been ordained according to the Quran. (I don't accept the theory that the Salat al-Jumu3a actually refers to the Hajj)These aspects are important because they solidify a community, and create a spirit of unity, of oneness. God meant them to be done by groups of people, then there cannot be uncertainty about them. Every strong community in history has had its rituals.
Like I said previously, unfortunately I found too much confusion and lack of unity/consensus here, which really is not for me and thus my stance of praying the way I was taught. If it means going to the Masjid and praying in congregation, then so be it.
Exactly.
You can read the Quran after each prayer or after the Fajr prayer specifically if that's what you think you need to do to complete the prayer.
But don't stop praying in congregation because you don't know whether the prostration and bowing of the traditional Muslims is the exact same prostration and bowing that you're supposed to be doing according to the Quran. -
Zulu12 - I have a question "If Allah wants things to be easy for us, then why we need to learn Classical Arabic?" It's a bit unfair don't you think?
This question is meaningless and a waste of time.
The Quran had to be sent in a language. What difference does it make which language it was?Had We sent this as a Qur'an in a language other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail?
4144 -
This question is meaningless and a waste of time.
The Quran had to be sent in a language. What difference does it make which language it was?Had We sent this as a Qur'an in a language other than Arabic, they would have said "Why are not its verses explained in detail?
4144I know - it was in reference to Zulu's comment
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Dear nsws1988
In my humble opinion if Allah SWT revealed the Glorious Quran in the Arabic language, then this is the language I will learn it in Inshallah.
You have 'hit the nail on the head'. Because Allah SWT wants things to be easy for us, that is precisley why He revealed the Quran in Arabic and not in any other language.
The Quran answers your question for you.
122 behold, We have bestowed it from on high as a discourse in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason.
16103 And, indeed, full well do We know that they say, "It is but a human being that imparts this to him! - the tongue of him to whom they so maliciously point is wholly outlandish, whereas this is Arabic speech, clear and clearly showing the truth .
26195 in the clear Arabic tongue.
3928 as a discourse in the Arabic tongue, free of all devious?ness, so that they might become conscious of God.
413 a divine writ, the messages whereof have been clearly spelled out as a discourse in the Arabic tongue for people of knowl?edge,
4144 Now if We had willed this to be a discourse in a non-Arabic tongue, they would surely have said, ?Why is it that its messages have not been spelled out clearly? Why - a non-Arabic tongue, and an Arab?? Say ?Unto all who have attained to faith, this is a guidance and a source of health; but as for those who will not believe - in their ears is deafness, and so it remains obscure to them they are being called from too far away.
433 behold, We have caused it to be a discourse in the Arabic tongue, so that you might encompass it with your reason.
And Allah Knows Best.
Peace
