If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?

[nsws1988]

Salam

I am aware of the verses but thanks anyway - What I meant was that people don't need to learn Arabic. It might help but we can't say that everyone has to learn it because it's difficult, especially at an older age.
However, for certain terms, which we are finding difficult to find a consistent translation for just as salat, hajj, etc, we all need to have some knowledge of Classical Arabic (not modern) to unearth its true meaning.

peace

[zulu12]

So, we do have to learn the Arabic language! Whether it be a little bit or a lot, it still has to be learned.

I still believe that Arabic has to be learned in order to recite and understand the Quran. This is even more evident in the PM's position in order to explain their positions in relation to everything they believe from the Quran and vice versa. As a matter of fact every Muslim uses the same technique. i.e 'We are fluent in Arabic therefore we understand the Quran better than thou, so we are rightly guided'. Whilst the opposing party will state that 'No, we are well versed in Arabic and the Quran says this, so we are rightly guided'. The only reality here is that both parties are fluent in Arabic.

On a final note, if Arabic was not a pre-requisite for understanding the Quran, then why does one use the Quran in order to disect everything mentioned in the Quran. How can you understand even one ayat? (Not you personally, but everyone generally). For anyone who has ever translated the Quran, they had to have a command of the Arabic language to start with.

The beauty of the recitation is in the Message, the Truth and the language it is recited in. Arabic.

Peace

[ths]

Well first of all, about this Arabic or not Arabic issue, I believe that the issue is simple.
The language of the Quran could have been anything, but God chose it for a reason.
I think people should thus strive to learn Arabic to better understand the Quran, simply because it was sent down in that language. I think anyone who knows Arabic will tell you that there is a plethora of information and beauty that is not conveyed in the translations.
So if the Quran had been sent down in English we should all learn English.
If it had been sent down in Swedish, we should all learn Swedish.

Now onto Salah, alhamdulillah my heart's been strengthened tonight after some reading.
I reread some of the articles on here about prayer and found them to be re-ensuring. (Oddly enough they weren't so re-ensuring the first time I came across them).

So I'd recommend everyone to read Layth al-Shaiban's great article here http//www.free-minds.org/salat
And Edip Yuksel's great article here http//www.free-minds.org/salat_edip

Both articles confirm what I've been feeling as of late that the traditional prayer is the best for now, with a few minor changes. They begin the prayers whilst standing, call on God, read verses from the Quran, bow, and prostrate.

Brother Edip's article has an excellent section called "Sectarian Innovations" that I'll summarize

There are many sectarian innovations that differ from sect to sect. Some of the innovations are

• combining the times of prayers

• performing the prayers omitted at their proper times

• shortening the prayers during normal trips

• adding extra prayers such as "sunnah" and "nawafil,"

• innovating a paid cleric occupation to lead the prayers

• while sitting reciting a prayer "at-Tahiyatu" which addresses to the Prophet Muhammad as he is alive and omnipresent

• adding Muhammad's name to the Shahada

• reciting zumm-us Sura (extra chapters) after the al-Fatiha

• indulging in sectarian arguments on details of how to hold your hands and fingers, washing mouth and nose as elements of taking ablution, brushing the teeth with "misvak" (a dry branch of a three beaten into fibers at one end as a toothbrush) just before starting the prayers

• wearing turbans or scarves to receive more credits

Personally I agree with these, other than the "reciting extra chapters after the fatiha" part. I don't see anything wrong with that. The Quran mentions that we must recite verses, but it doesn't say how many or few or which ones, only that we should recite as much as we feel comfortable.
I also don't see any wrong in doing extra prayers if you so chose, as long as you don't claim they are ordained by God or anyone else.

So in summation pray the way you've been taught, leaving out any idolatrous remarks, such as mentioning Mohammad in the tashahhud.

And finally, I'd like to leave you with a verse from brother Layth's article

"The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the Salat. Will you be deterred?" (591)

And what perfect timing to end this post with it's dawn, and time to pray.

[Wootah]

Assuming each language is complex enough, which I presume all modern languages are, then the truth would be knowable in any language. Why isn't the truth possible in every language? I find that using language as an excuse separates us from God.

Doesn't the Koran say

A Book of which the verses are made plain, an Arabic Quran for a people who know
And We have not taught him poetry, nor is it meet for him; it is nothing but a reminder and a plain Quran,

A simple search on the word plain reveals clearly that the Koran is plain.
http//quod.lib.umich.edu/cgi/k/koran/koran-idx?type=simple&q1=plain&size=First+100

If all things are made plain then surely that plain explanation is translatable to other languages?

[RA786]

Peace everyone...

It seems you all have written allot! D wow...

uh...I fastly skimmed over everything, but I will now take the time to slowly re-read all that is posted and then come with a reply.
Thank you all (and wakas) for replying. I really Apperciate it very much! D

Yeah, I know I was negitive....

To put it in its most simple way Islam was Thriving when it was in its "Golden Age".
Why?

1. what Can we learn from the people of that time...(how they were able to keep so much power/unity/love togeather...

and
2), Can we Go BACK to that Position in the world?
2A) what will it take?

D

[ths]

Honestly, I feel like the discussion on the language of the Quran is sidetracking us from the main points raised by RA786, and not a really important issue like the main discussion

Assuming each language is complex enough, which I presume all modern languages are, then the truth would be knowable in any language. Why isn't the truth possible in every language? I find that using language as an excuse separates us from God.

Well no one is really making excuses...Zulu was merely saying that he thought that learning Arabic would make understanding the Quran much easier....and as someone who does read Arabic, I agree with him fully. There have been so many times when I read a translated passage and think to myself ah...that's not how I would've translated it at all...
Also, you lose the poetic rhythm and wordplay in translation. I recommend you read Shakespeare's Wordcraft, or "Logic, Rhetoric, and Legal Reasoning In the Quran" to get an idea of what I'm talking about. If you look into the Table of Contents of Shakespeare's Wordcraft on Amazon.com, you'll find chapters on Additions, Repetitions (Repeated Vowels, Repeated Consonants, Repeated Syllables), Reverberations, Transformations (Sense Shifting, Form Shifting), Substitutions (Euphemism, Mock Rhetoric), etc etc.
These are all poetic devices that enrich the Reading enormously. And the meaning can be conveyed in a translation, but the poetic nature cannot.

As to why it was sent down in Arabic....who knows? This was 1,500 years ago, perhaps other languages weren't developed enough? Perhaps they were, but it was more to do with the location of the Arabs geographically in the middle of several warring empires....

Now, onto RA786's questions

1. Islam was Thriving when it was in its "Golden Age". Why?

I would say this has to do with science. Questioning everything was encouraged. There was no dogmatic obedience. Education was the most important value.
There's a great story that I don't remember exactly, but will try to paraphrase here.
It's of the Franks sending a spy to Muslim Spain to see if it was ready to be invaded. However, the first person he meets is leading a philosophical discussion. So he returns and reports to his king that they were not ready to be invaded.
Several years later another spy is sent, and the first person he runs into is doing mathematical experiments.
so he returns and reports to his king that they were not ready to be invaded.
The third time another spy is sent, and he finds men squabbling with each other over money, or gossiping, or something like that.
So he returns to his king and tells him now is the time to invade.

I heard this story many years ago so can't remember the exact details of what they were doing...but that's the general moral of the story. If anyone knows the original please relate it!
Anyway the point of the story is not historical, but moral. They were unbeatable when they studied, and focused on the sciences and philosophy. It was only when they started their petty infighting that they became weak. The wars of Riddah are a good example of this also.

2. Can we Go BACK to that Position in the world?

Sure, given some time and activism.

3. what will it take?

Education. Good government. Good leaders. And most importantly, we7da, or unity. Political and economic unity amongst the Arabs, as well as between the Muslims in general.
Islam is a very community based religion, and people who bicker about how you should place your toes when you pray and refuse to pray behind others for whatever trespasses they think they've made are hurting the community spirit.

The most important thing should be do you believe in one God? Do you believe in the Quran as his message?
If those two questions are met, then we are brothers, and all else is politics, economics, or semantics - which should never be strong enough to divide us.

[Wootah]

Honestly, I feel like the discussion on the language of the Quran is sidetracking us from the main points raised by RA786, and not a really important issue like the main discussion
Oh well the topic has expanded from confusion about salat to language confusion. I think it is in the same ball park. I can't answer the technicalities of the original question but I do think it is fair to say the Koran is a plain reading and that translating should be easy (assuming one intends to translate properly). Also that is another issue I guess Koran Alone Muslim struggle with. As the Koran is a plain and clear book you can't really claim previous Muslims misinterpreted it.

These are all poetic devices that enrich the Reading enormously. And the meaning can be conveyed in a translation, but the poetic nature cannot.
I never understood how the poetic nature mattered. The truth is in the content. Truth is beauty, beauty is not necessarily an indication of truth.

It's of the Franks sending a spy to Muslim Spain to see if it was ready to be invaded. However, the first person he meets is leading a philosophical discussion. So he returns and reports to his king that they were not ready to be invaded.
Several years later another spy is sent, and the first person he runs into is doing mathematical experiments.
so he returns and reports to his king that they were not ready to be invaded.
The third time another spy is sent, and he finds men squabbling with each other over money, or gossiping, or something like that. So he returns to his king and tells him now is the time to invade.

I'll remember that story, it has a moral for anyone that wishes to hear it.

2. Can we Go BACK to that Position in the world?
   Sure, given some time and activism.
   Might it be too brazen of me to suggest that the golden age never left and all you have to do is look anew. Idle thoughts.

[RA786]

Salaam Ths, Thank you, and I totally agree 100% with what you said, and I like your story.

Also, I hear Wakas Constantly saying that "We have More in Common, then what we disagree on." and that is True, and should be the reminder we are under when uniting.

My whole Issue with the Salat issue is this

There will always be disagreements on the salat...this is Natural. After the Prophet different sects emereged.
However, I think that there will still be a Majority who agrees on a specific way right? and there will still be a Majority who believes the Hajj is a cerain way right?
what is the majority agreeing on?

Today, the Majority of Muslims (in general) Believe the Sunni way Ritual Prayer is teh Correct way. Even Rashad Khalifa believes this is saved through Tradition.
What do you all think. You may Critisize Rashad Khalifa on many levels...from Mathamatics to Religious heresay....
BUT Does his Hypothasis/Theory hold any weight in reguards to the Salat ritual being Partially Explained/preserved in the Quran, and Partcially preserved in Tradition over the years being passed down through generations?

There will always be a Majority who believes one thing and small minorities who believe otherwise. I guess I have come to terms (Slowly) realizing that There will be things in the Quran that perhaps we many never truley know because we are after thr prophet .(unless Allah reveals it to us individually).

You Are right Sarah, D There is no need for me to be negitive and believe that Unity cannot be achieved just because there is a difference of opinion.
Perhaps it wasnt the Consensus on Salat, Hajj, etc, that held the people togeather in the "Golden Age of Islam" but their Tolerance and Striving to be One Ummah in Leading the world through Science and Behavior reguardless of difference in opinion.

It kinda seems that things werent as dogmatic back then as they are now.

[nsws1988]

Salam all,

Firstly, RA786 - your smileys are sooo cute!!

Secondly, I would like an opinion on this verse

And thus We have inspired to you an Arabic Quran, so that you may warn the capital town and all around it, and to warn about the Day of Summoning that is inevitable. A group will be in Paradise, and a group in Hell {427}

Doesn't that mean it is the Arabic speakers responsibility to teach those around them? I'm not saying that no one needs to bother learning the Quran, as you'll know by reading by last post. I'm just talking about those who are new to islam and have to rely on translations and the help of their brothers and sisters, just like many on this forum.

I pray that one day. by God's guidance we will finally understand the Quran better pr

[Wakas]

Remember, even polytheists can live under the deen, see the profound chapter 9 of AQ.
Background reading.

I think Sarah's analogy of the workplace is quite apt, because I'm sure many of us work with people who differ in views, sometimes greatly, but are all united under the company's goals/system/direction/etc. If this structure can be likened to the structure of the deen, in which believers/non-believers/Jews/Christians/etc can fall under, then if they have unity in direction/action/goals/system, not necessarily beliefs, it can work.

To me, these questions of difference are all academic, and always have been, I only discuss them because I am interested in determining truth, increasing my knowledge, sharing with my fellow brothers/sisters etc. If a person observes a belief or practice different to mine, then it does not bother me one bit. It is only relevant if their belief/practice has a direct and detrimental effect upon me, or if they say "this is from Quran" and I disagree then I have the right to ask "please provide evidence" etc. This is perfectly natural.

Note, how disunity/confusion/variance is implied yet the level of quality of specific research in this area is limited. Do not confuse lack of an answer as there is no answer. AQ is waiting to unfold for each and everyone of us, be as a mirror to it, let its image be reflected within you, just as you direct your heart/mind upon it let it direct itself upon your heart/mind, open yourself up as you open it up, give as much as it gives to you etc.

Like a buried treasure, we are uncovering it piece by piece, and it is only a matter of time before its message is restored in its original purity/clarity, so let us all grab a shovel and unite in digging.

[ths]

Salaam Wakas,

I just read your link Disproved once and for all salat=prayer
It was really interesting reading, and you make a very compelling argument

But surely you also agree that salah can mean a few things, right? Or do you hold that salah is always referred to in the Quran as an oath or a bond?

And how do you reconcile this view with the ayahs that mention prostration?

These verses specifically seem to be talking about a physical prayer

one can seek help through the salat
salat can involve speaking and one should know what one is saying (i.e. have a clear head, not intoxicated).
One should be clean before coming near the salat.
salat is finite
salat can be shortened and done on the move in case of fear
in cases of fear, salat can be done in two groups in a rotational manner
It can end with acknowledgement (submitting/agreeing/hearing&obeying/responding positively)
For the faithful/believer/trustful the salat is a timed book/decree/law
the salat can be called to
'institutes of acknowledgement' (masajida) are maintained/visited by those who uphold the salat
salat can be attended

(taken from your excellent notes on salah)

And lastly, if it's not too much to ask, could you relate to us how you do salat? And how does one perform salah 3 times a day if it's simply a bond? Just read the Quran?

From reading your article my own conclusion is that you're right, in that case, but that there is a bond for the muslims and there is a bond for the non-muslims, and for the non-muslims it's a metaphysical bond the way you speak of, but for the muslims it is both metaphysical and physical.

Edit
Just out of interest....check out what Sahih Ibn Kathir has to say on verse 912 that you discuss in your article

(then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

(And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )2191 Allah said here,

(and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

(and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush), do not wait until you find them. Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them. This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

(But if they repent and perform the Salah, and give the Zakah, then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.) Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah. These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations. Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

(I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.) This honorable Ayah (95) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said, "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.'' Al-Awfi said that Ibn Abbas commented "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safety ever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

[RA786]

I have a Question...

If Our Goal is to remember GOD, Isnt the Traditional Ritual prayer a Form of Remembrance?
Obviously not everyone will do the ritual prayer as Everyone will remember GOD in their own way they seem befitting.

But what I am trying to say is that...Is the Word Salat Vague and Open enough for it to mean Prayer and Just simply reading the quran?

I think the Ritual Prayer is obviously a Form of Remembrance or can be made in to one.

By stopping all business to do a ritual prayer consisting of reading/reciting Quran and Glorifying God...Taking deep breathes and asking GOD to give you guidance and the means to give Charity to others, as well as Reflecting on the Surah's that you are reciting and how they are relevant in your life....
...isnt this ALL remembrance?

By doing this Ritualistic Prayer, you have (lack of a better word "Killed two birds with one stone".... Meaning, You are fullfilling a "Bond" by reading the Quran and Reflecting/reciting, and are remembering your GOD as well as thinking of others and asking for help in your Duaa.

This to me all falls under the tent of SALAT.

do you all agree?

[Wakas]

peace ths,

In the article you read, it also linked to this article. Please read it for my view on "salat", and to answer some of your questions.

Re prostration
The evidence is weighted against a physical prostration in AQ. Please see past threads in this forum, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7428.0
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.15

To summarise, from my studies, sjd is an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement", whatever form it takes (unless being used idiomatically of course). If we may think outside the box for a moment have you ever observed a tree swaying in the direction the wind takes it in? This is my conceptual understanding of sjd. I believe this is akin to the example given in AQ to do with shadows and sjd . Of course, God knows best.

I strongly recommend people to utilise the forum search function when possible.

[RA786]

I was able to gain some more knowledge and Points from this Thread here.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14110.15

I personnnally have come to the conclusion that for me, Al-Salat is Prayer/Conection/Turning Towards.
I think that Iqa Wakas and Ayman All braught up great points of the Argument.

However, I think it would make more sense to me to mean Prayer
For example Dont go near (Prayer) when you are Intoxicated. and You can (Pray) when on a Journey riding horses.

I think that Ayman and Waka's Goal is to reach a Positive Postion (either mentally or Physically) by turning towards Allah. Correct?

I find it that the Traditionalist Ritual Prayer Consists of Both Mental and Physical Aspects and the Goal of Performing it is Synominous with the Goal of Ayman and Waks...(meaning we all wish to achieve the same thing by our involvment/participation in Salat).

Could it be that the Term Salat is Open and Vauge Enough to allow Both My Ritualistic Prayre View of Salaat and Waka's View of Salaat?

wakas what do you think? Are we Both wishing to acomplish virtually the same goal by means of Salat?

[ths]

Salaam Wakas,

So I went through your articles again..I've gone through them several times over the past few months since I discovered them. They really are great, so thanks for them.

And I agree with most of what you say.

But my one problem is your position on physical prayer. I don't feel convinced by your view on the word "prostration".
I feel that for most of the changes in the religion that I've stumbled upon in the past few months, everything has been clear. The exegesis has been scientific and the difference obvious. Proving the worth of the Quran as the sole source of law without the Hadiths was logical and well argued.

But this part...it just seems like reaching..like a desperate attempt to find fault in something more obvious. It's as if you're trying really hard to find fault in what your predecessors have done with regards to interpretation.

As far as your article on surah 9 goes, I think that your argument is clear and concise. The salah mentioned in surah 9 does not seem to be the physical prayer most people interpret it as.
My argument for that is that it may well be a different form of salah for non-muslims, or for believers in one God who have never heard of Islam for example.

As far as your interpretation of prostration, I think that all the arguments are weak. Everyone seems to be making a valid interpretation based on one or two ayahs that they've studied, and then applied that interpretation to all the other ayahs with the words 'salah'. But in my opinion, each ayah seems to be invoking a different meaning for salah.

In the first link you posted, (http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.0) Raj-ah mentions this verse

Among His proofs are the night and the day, and the sun and the moon. Do not "prostrate" before the sun, nor the moon; you shall fall prostrate before the GOD who created them, if you truly worship Him alone. 4137

In this verse, a physical prostration is by far the most obvious interpretation. How does one "hear and obey" the sun?? I think that we should in each case take the most obvious meaning, and then see where each verse has taken us. And in this case, physical prostration is the most obvious meaning.

However, then there is this verse
Behold! Joseph said to his father "O my father! I did see eleven stars and the sun and the moon I saw them prostrate themselves to me!" 124

In this case it doesn't make any sense at all as a physical prostration!

mh's excellent analysis in your second link also shows many examples where sujood makes more sense as a metaphysical concept than a physical one.

But here are some that I've dug up and haven't seen mentioned yet

This verse is repeated twice in the Quran from what I've seen so far

2646 and 7120
Then did the sorcerers fall down, prostrate in adoration

I then went and looked at the root word for fa-alqya
= Lam-Qaf-Ya = To meet, meet with, encounter, find, find out a thing, see, come across, experience, suffer from, occur, undergo, endure, lean upon, recieve, come face to face, go in the direction of or towards.
This root has occurred in al quran in 45 forms, and been used about 145 times.

In this verse, the word fa-alqya is a verb. They alqya whilst they were saajideen. This is an odd usage, because it implies that to do sujood you must first alqee.
Looking at these meanings (taken from http//www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm), it seems that both l q ya and s j d have the meaning "to turn towards"
So the most befitting meaning would be
So they turned, the Sorcerers, turning.
?...What do you think of that? Still not very clear.

Then there is also this one

And during part of the night, (also,) celebrate His praises, and (so likewise) after the postures of adoration. 5040

Adbaar here comes from the root dal-ba-ra

303 Dal-Ba-Ra

to turn the back, flee, follow after, be behind, become old, take a thing away, veer to the west wind, elapse (day, night), follow with respect. Back, hinder part, the last, extremity, that which comes after, at the end of, extreme, last remnant, uttermost part. To dispose, manage, govern, consider, the issues or results of the affairs or the case, perform or execute the affair with thought or consideration, devise or plan the affair with thought or consideration, devise or plan the affair, regulate. Consequence, result. idbar = retreat, withdrawal, setting.

In this case the best translations would be

And during the night, celebrate his praises, retreating in sujood
Or
And during the night, celebrate his praises, performing with consideration the sujood

These can be either physical or no-physical

Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing; 2564

Now in this case, qiyaaman is fairly obvious. It means standing, which infers that prayer is physical. There are other mentions of standing during prayer (2238; 339; 4102) as well.
So in this case, it seems to be a physical action that is implied.

But it's getting late and I really have to get to bed if I'm to wake up in 5 hours....so let me summarize my final point

I think that the greatest argument for a physical prayer is the fact that we know Muhammad performed physical prayers.
And I know, I know, we cannot take the hadiths as an incontrovertible source of exegesis, but still...Muhammad started this religion, he prayed, taught his family how to pray, taught his companions how to pray...
so perhaps the Quran is vague on this matter simply because prayer has been passed down directly from them?
How likely is it that the actions that Muhammad taught his followers were destroyed so thoroughly that prayer actually has nothing to do with physical action?
How is it possible that the people who prayed with Muhammad in his home (the mother of all masjids architecturally speaking) then went home and taught their sons, who then went ahead and taught their sons something completely different?
How is it possible that Muhammad would sit reading the Quran during prayers, and then some time after his death people randomly began to perform physical prayer?

I mean come on, the sheer quantity of evidence is overwhelmingly in support of this.
Ali is even said to have been assassinated WHILST praying.

Then there is the fact that adherents of so many other religions around the world pray in a similar fashion. It shows a continuity of the same message.

And I realize that you interpret slw as to turn towards, or to make a bond, but I was more curious in how you've been practicing this and for how long, to see if in practice it yields results. I'm interested in how you feel when doing it, as opposed to how you felt intrinsically when doing physical salat. How has this change affected your worship on a more personal level, putting aside semantics and roots for a minute

Now, as for RA786

Is it Consittered a Transgression to Do 5 ritual prayers complete with Prostration and Recitiation of Quran?
Does doing so make one a Hypocrate of Islam?

I wouldn't worry if I were you. The view that prayer is not a physical ritual is the view of an extremely small minority. The evidence isn't strong enough to say with 100% certainty that one should NOT be doing a physical prayer. After all, the Quran is not very clear on this matter, despite being clear on so much else, which indicates that the method of prayer isn't that important (or that it's obvious). And at the end of the day, God knows your intention.
So don't fret about that too much.

Also, I wouldn't even call it a transgression to do 5 daily prayers, despite the fact that the Quran mentions 3.

The changes I'm considering making permanently are to pray 3 times a day instead of 5, and not to say the tashahhud in the end mentioning Muhammad as Gods messenger.
This is because the Quran asks us not to differentiate between God's prophets, as well as it being an odd thing to add during a prayer directed towards one God.

Edit
RA786, after reading your post I wanted to tell you I like your interpretation.
But i also wanted to drop a word here that I've never once seen mentioned on this forum (not that I've searched for it) Khushoo3
or
Whilst people here reject the sunnah and hadiths altogether, I personally think they're very educational to read through, and is taken very seriously in them. Prayer is nullified without it. To give it a quick off-the-top-of-my-head definition, it's having extreme focus and awareness whilst doing something. I notice a lot of time people keep repeating that 'the traditionalists' do mechanical prayer with no meaning...but that's not true ...the traditionalists believe that to perform prayer right, you have to have khushoo3, so they agree with us here that the mental part is more important than the physical.

[RA786]

Thanks Brother THS, here is something else That I would like to bring up....

Free-minds Translation O you who believe, if you rise to attend the contact-method, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles.........Surah 5/6.

1st thing I noticed "IF" is used in reguard for the people who believe to Attened the Contact-Method.

I wanted to know if this is Acurate Language. All of the other Translators used a Direct word such as "WHEN", instead of "IF" like Free-minds.
This leads me to believe that Free-minds is saying that the "Contact-Method" is actually Optional and NOT Mandatory

Is this Correct Wakas?

It would seem weird that Allah would say "O You Who Belive" (address the believers for something Important) and then just say "IF" you rise to attend .... Like Maybe you will attend maybe you wont...its Optional.... actually ...Its not even that important anyways...its totally just an Option.

Why does it say IF giving an Option while ALL other Translators Translate this as a Mandatory Even for all that Believe? "If" seems to be very Liberal..
In fact...Most if you ask people to do something but give an "IF" (option) they most likeley arent even going to attend since that would be the Minimal accepted thing to do.

Also Free-minds Translated This as Contact-Method
I would like to have a Free-minds Dictionary Deffinition on what "Contact-Method" means.
The Method of Comming togeather?

How do we Believers Rise and wash to attened a Method of Comming togeather? this seems very ambigious, broad, open, and therefore impossible for me to understand.

WHAT IS THE CONTACT-METHOD?

My Bing Translator and Google Translator and Babylon Translator Say Means "Prayer" or "Pray".

Freeminds "And hold the contact-method, and contribute towards betterment, and kneel with those who kneel." surah 243
The Above seems to indicate that the Contact Method consists of a Physical Kneeling with others.
(i.e. some sort of Ritual Prayer?)

Freeminds... Preserve the contact-methods, and the middle contact-method, and stand devoutly for God. surah 2238
Also used the Word Most Often Translated as Prayer here.
What I am not understanding it says to "Preserve"-Keeping/Continuing "the"(specific) Contact-Method....ESPECIALLY THE MIDDLE CONTACT-METHOD!
what is this Contact Method and why so much emphasis on Preserving and the MIDDLE {ERA or Asr} one? why is the MIDDLE one so Important?

PS...what does Mean? my Translators say It means "AGE" or Era (or known as Asr prayer)

[Wakas]

peace ths,

So many questions, so I will try and be brief

Re 4137
...do not SJD for/to the sun and not for/to the moon and/but SJD to/for God...

Firstly, I did not say SJD=hear & obey, so please do not imply otherwise.
Secondly, I agree that the superficial interpretation may be to take it physically, however, let us apply reason and consider how does one physically prostrate for/to sun/moon? If it is directional, which it obviously must be if we take it physically, then how does one choose instead to physically prostrate to god? What direction will you now face? Will it be the opposite of the sun/moon? Will it be to a cuboid in Mecca even if the sun/moon is in this same direction? (of course, since the earth is spherical one does not literally face an object on earth many miles away, they face a random point in space). What is the significance of "to God belongs the east and west, so wherever you turn is God's face/direction"?
As we can see, taking it literally causes problems. However, when we take it as what I have previously said, and considering it is a verb, i.e. a doing word, then I would translate it as

...do not give recognition/acknowledgement for/to the sun and not for/to the moon and/but give recognition/acknowledgement to/for God...

Where is the problem?

When studying a word and using Project Root List, please ensure you cross-reference first and foremost words in that EXACT same form. See
http//www.studyquran.co.uk/Qwrmic.htm on the homepage.

Re 2646, 7120
LQY is in the passive form, meaning the object (i.e. sorcerers) received the action expressed in the verb, an action done/completed upon them. I would have to cross reference the form before I decided what is most appropriate. It could mean something like "they met/encountered/found/experienced acknowledgement/recognition" or could be a play on words due to the casting and mean "they were cast (with) acknowledgement/recognition". Also, is it likely they said what they said after whilst physically prostrating when they said it like an announcement? Highly unlikely.

Re 2564
SJD is adjective, qiyaman is a noun according to corpus.quran.com I dont have time to verify usage at the moment. It is likely metaphorical when it uses the same word for "stand for justice" etc.

Thank you for making me revisit 5040, as it now makes perfect sense to me "...and after the recognition/acknowledgement".

Also, see
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg225018#msg225018

I think that the greatest argument for a physical prayer is the fact that we know Muhammad performed physical prayers.

"know"?

I recommend reading my article on slw again.

peace RA786,
the when/if issue has been discussed before, cant recall the outcome. Bro Damon brought it up if I remember rightly.

Again, I also recommend reading my article again.

I must be off.

[RA786]

Thanks Wakas.

You braught up a good point about the Sun and Moon. However, I think my view of Salat is still compatible with your view (to a certin degree).

recognition/acknowledgement for/to the sun and not for/to the moon and/but give recognition/acknowledgement to/for God...
Prostration (in prayer)/Recognition Acknowledgment

I interpret it like this

If The Polytheist Prostrates on the ground and (Mentally/Verbally) making a Glorification to the Sun and Moon as his God thanking them for his Sustinance.
This is Haraam. or Bad.

However If a Muslim/Submitter/Person who is in Submission to Allah Prostrates on the ground and (Mentally/Verbally) makes a Glorification to ALLAH thankin Him for Sustinence... I think it is Good and Permissable.

Why what is the Difference.
Intention, meaning, and WHAT the person is Turning Towards.
IS the Muslim who is Prostrating on the Ground Still Compatible with Waka's Deffinition Given here Recognition/Acknowledgement? I think so.

When I go to a King and I Prostate to him on the ground, I am submitting myself to him. I am Glorifying him Symbolically and Physically While Mentally and Verbally Recognizing and Acknowledging that he is Superior to me and I thank him for the Sustinence He Gives.

I feel that this is a "Prostration to a King, or to a Moon, or the a SUN, or Star...etc... They are all things that are NOT ALLAH.
Therefore, ONLY prostrating to Allah is Acceptible.

Prostration is the placement of the body in a reverentially or submissively prone position.to cast (oneself) face down on the ground in humility, submission, or adoration. Prosstration is always Synominous with Humilty, Submit, Surrender, and Submission...(Similair synonyms of S-L-M, Islam, Salaam, Salim)

Prostartion is Internationally known for being a Symbol of Adoration worship and Respect since the begining of mankind and even in the Animal Kingdom. Physical Prostation is not only a Physical act as it requires some sort of Mental Thought of Inner Intention behind it.

Comming for a Polytheist Background.... I would have to Prostrate to Material Things and False dieties or False Authority Figures.
I would prostrate in a Similar way as the "Muslims" do except in my head and Words my Intention was focused on the Material False Authority Figure and NOT ALLAH.

However, Once I became Muslim I carried on my Prostration Proceedure, except this type ridding my mind of any type of Material Image or false Authrority.
For instance, Instead of having a picture of a White Jesus in my head or a Black King of Etheopia and instead of saying "Hail Sallasia" or "Dear Lord Jesus"

I would say Allah Akbar, Alhumdulilah, and have no picture of any Image but only focus on Allah and pray towards Allah (the Unseen).
I recognize my Prayer and Prostration does absolutley nothing to benifit Him rather, it is the means both Physically and Spiritually in which I Acknowledge, Recognize, Surrender, Submit, Ador, worship, and Contact Allah so that I can manifest Humbleness within my soul and life.

I feel that Prostation is the means for many people to go about this "Recognition/Acknowledgment" Process. (which by the way requires wudu/cleanliness.)

I still feel the it is Vauge Enough to fit my view while still being synominous with Wakas view of Recognition and Acknowledgement.

[ths]

Peace Wakas,

So I went through one of the discussions that you posted, which was excellent
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15172.75

The debate goes through several iterations, but it then moves onto 17109, to the infamous yakhirruuna liladhqaani passage that has baffled so many
Ayman's argument (to the best of my memory, also note that I'm summarizing a great deal of text) is that people who argue that it is a physical sujood ignore the 'to the chins' aspect, and prostrate to their faces, and that if they were truly interested in following the Quran, they would prostrate to their chins! However, he takes the view that sujood is more likely hearing and obeying.

Then others, such as Raj-ah and Genteel, and Leoxyz argue that is a physical sujood.

And lastly, Samia argues that it is a physical sujood, but that yakhirruuna liladhqaani is meant as a phrase, such as "they are in up to their necks"

Just a disclaimer
We are all in agreement, that the most important aspect of prayer is the mental part, and praying with khushoo3. We are just trying to ascertain the true nature of the commandments, and whether or not a physical prostration is intended to go along with the mental focus during prayer.

So onto my arguments

Why use words such as bow and prostrate, that have physical connotations, if the true meaning is mental?
If the true meaning is to 'hear and obey', then why would God cause such confusion by not using more obvious words for hearing and obeying?
If the true meaning is to make a mental bond, then why would God use words with such physical inference?

2226
Behold! We gave the site, to Abraham, of the (Sacred) House, (saying) "Associate not anything (in worship) with Me; and sanctify My House for those who compass it round, or stand up, or bow, or prostrate themselves (therein in prayer).

a&#8234
This ayah is entirely physical. If prostration is not physical, then we must also find alternate meanings for bowing (rukka3i), standing (qaa2imeen), compassing round (6aa2ifeen)

i) If we are to find alternate meanings for all these aspects, then why on earth would God choose 4 words, ALL with physical connotations??
The whole thing is getting absurd.

b)

1003 Ra-Kaf-Ayn

bowed, bent, incline, humility, humble yourself, lower the head.
7748
243, 343, 2277, 7748
243, 2125, 343, 555, 9112, 2226, 3824, 4829
LL, V3, p313,314

Those who spend the night in adoration of their Lord prostrate and standing; 2564

Prostrating and standing (qiyaamaa)
Again, 2 physical words, only 1 is supposed to have a physical meaning.
Why?

Or is he who is obedient in the watches of the night, bowing himself and standing, he being afraid of the world to come and hoping for the mercy of his Lord . . ? Say 'Are they equal -- those who know and those who know not?' Only men possessed of minds remember. 399

Saajidan wa qaa2iman
Prostrating and Standing
One is mental and the other physical?

Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace,- of the posterity of Adam, and of those who We carried (in the Ark) with Noah, and of the posterity of Abraham and Israel of those whom We guided and chose. Whenever the Signs of (Allah) Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears. 1958

Kharroo sujjadan wa bakiyyan

Kharroo according to Lane's Lexicon has 2 primary meanings

1. to murmur, rumble, or gurgle

2. to fall down. kharra l-binaa2u The building fell down
   kharra lillaahi saajidan He fell down prostrating himself to God
   Or Kharra signifies He, or it, fell from a high to a low place
   Faka2annamaa kharra min alsamaa2i .
   And kharoo li2idhqaanihim inf. n. khuroor (A 3asafat reehu fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2idhqaan .(A.)
   You say also kharra (TA,) inf. n. kharru (K,) meaning He died (K,TA because a man, when he dies, falls down. (TA.) In the Kur xxxiv. 13, it may mean He died, or he fell down. (TA.)__Also (kharra) He stumbled after going right. (TA.) __And kharrat kha6aayaah His sins fell ; went away ; or departed. (TA, from a trad.) __And kharra min al jibaali, inf. n. khuruur, He, (a man,) and it, (a stone, &c.,) rolled down from the mountain. (TA.) __And Al2a3raabu yukhirruuna min al bawaadee ila al-quraa The Arabs of the desert came down, or descend, from the deserts to the towns or villages. (A.)

Aren't there better words for mental connection?
Are there no better words for hearing and obeying? (As Ayman suggests) or making a bond?
Which words would convey those meanings? Surely not these ones, that require such stretches and research, when the Quran is so clear in everything else.

Conclusion

If we are to take the most obvious meanings from the Quran, then the most obvious meanings convey a physical connotation.
It is absurd to think that God wants us to do all these mental non-ritualistic aspects, and for Him to use physical words one after the other.
When everything in the Quran is so clear, then why make this intentionally confusing?

Lastly, I believe that 19;58 IS the key to solve this puzzle that seems to have been a thorn in the side of free-minds since 2003!
Those were some of the prophets on whom Allah did bestow His Grace?Whenever the Signs of God the Most Gracious were rehearsed to them, they would fall down in prostrate adoration and in tears.
And kharroo was shown to mean beyond a shadow of a doubt the action of falling. Lane's Lexicon shows us that kharroo is used in classical Arabic to unequivocally mean fall down. It even references the specific ayah!

I read in the other thread where kharra was briefly mentioned a counter argument (I think it was yours but aren't sure anymore), that kharroo indicates falling, so sujood becomes redundant as a physical maneuver. I think that view is completely wrong. There are plenty of ways to fall, and sujood is a way to define how they fell, to show that they didn't simply fall down crying, but they fell down crying, and in prostration.

Thus we can say with certainty that it is not coincidental that God chose 'to fall' with the word 'prostration', and to make that statement into a 'mental action' or a 'bond' or whatever, is really pushing the limits of common sense.
I'm not saying that there is no mental aspect, obviously there is, and it is important. But what I am saying is that to ignore the continuous use of physical verbs in the Quran in favour of a more obscure general meaning is not taking the most obvious answer.

And I'm now satisfied with this answer.

[RA786]

Thanks THS for that post....

man, i am really Un-organized with my posts... '(

You had your points in Numbers and Letter formant, bullets and conclusions...
I need to start making posts like that instead of Messy all of over the place Color coated posts... lol ;D

That "Prophets fell down in tears" was really interesting, i would like to explore that.

P.s. A tradtional friend from the Wakeupproject actually sent me a pdf format book of "What is Kushuroo and how to better it"
but I lost it..I need to ask him again, If i get it ill send it too you.

It does obviously have traditionalist shirk/undertones however if you can decipher and distinguish the good from the bad...it has alot of interesting and usefull information to utlize... (i wish i hadnt lost it! ( )