If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?
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Peace RA786,
So you admit that the physical "mark" on the head is irrelevant to whether one is a "muslim" or even an average decent human being or not. Not only the extreme Hindus who prostrate to their idols frequently have those marks but also idiotic terrorists. Moreover, the mark is a kind of mild contact dermititis and depending on your skin type you may get it or not. Usually people with lighter skin will not get it. Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type? So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.
Wow Ayman, You really Are the BEST bravo .... To be honest I did not believe it, I didnt believe it at all until I got a tase of you... Its true, you really are the best at not only making absurd claims but twisting and turning a conversation around. I am a Pro-Se, Gee, if I Ever need a Lawyer Ill be sure to give you a call. laugh
1st I Do NOT apperciate that you have said
Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type?
yuck Please dont insinuate that I am blind and also please Stay on topic. I have NEVER once in this thread said ANYTHING about Skin type and believers only having Prayer Marks. It not only is creating a False and Irrelavant Derailing Topic, but it gives a false Illusion that that was what I said thus making me look like an ignorant Racist Muslim (and I have never said that)That is like me saying "Ayman!? Common brother! Are you really that cold hearted that you feel Aborting grown babies is totally cool and trendy!?"
See what I just did? I created a False story that never happened and now everyone who isnt paying attention thinks "oh wow, ayman is a real mean guy, he likes grown aborted babies."So please...I am Not a Racist Muslim who thinks that Only Dark skinned Believers get a Prostration Mark. Stay ON TOPIC!
So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.
Actually I disagree with you hear. It can have alot to do with the believers and Piety in the sense that there are ALOT of muslims who have it because they pray alot. And Because They Pray alot therefore they feel closer to God and are more motivated personnally to do zakat, and other Islamic Good things.
However there are some "Bad Apples" who Also have the Mark and they Still do bad things and are far from god and are terrorists.
So who wins the Good guys or the Terrorists?
I dont think its that easy for us to say.I would Conclude that for the "Good Muslims with the Prostration Mark" they not only (obviously) do Physical Prayer, but mental. (A combination, where faith has Truley entered in their heart.)
Then I would say that the "Terrorist Bad Muslims who also have the Prostration Mark" Do Prayer just like the Above (good guys) however Faith has NOT entered their heart and all they are doing is Excersise. They are merely repeating words, doing motions, and ultimatley Achieving NOTHING.
So does this mean ALL PROSTRATION AND PRAYER MARKS MEAN NOTHING!? No, lets not let the terrorists win!
Athiests use this same Logica for Criticiszing Religion, however what they dont realize is that Not EVERYBODY who practices religion is Wrong.
Here look at one of their Pictureshttp//i298.photobucket.com/albums/mm271/cromosoma_verde/varie/no_religion.jpgAre the Athiests Right? would Athiesm really be the Panacea for the Homosapien evil disease? No, religious People have not only Started Wars, but also Ended them for Peace. Religious people have Feed Starving people, Cured Crack Addicks and whores, and has Freed tons of Slaves (as well as Ensalved them).
Its not the Religion (perse) its the PEOPLE, there are GOOD and BAD religious people. Not all Churches rob your money. Not all Catholics Rape your little boys.
So therefore back to your Comment, There are a lot of People who have Benifited from the Physical Prostration and have Develouped a Honorable Mark on their Forehead. Most who have this mark are True to what they do. They have really benifited from it and have manifested it into their life. It is Both a Physical and Mental/Spiritual thing.However some have not benifited and have just simply got a lump on their head and it means nothing because their prayer is All physical and ill-intended. Allah knows best! D
Btw, Buddhists and many other religions get marks too, im just saying Muslims are KNOWN for having them, meaning...Though Buddhists have it...Muslims are greatly recognized more for it in the media. Just like Hindus have a red dot, Foot ball players have Black lines under they eyes...etc... Though many other people may have it..they for some reason have more publicity and are known more for having it.
(maybe buddhists should hire a new Publisist.) rotflSo you admit that the physical mark on the forehead is 100% irrelevant.
No, I did not say it is Irrelevant (perse)...I think it is a Symbol of Great Prostration/Patience and Striving...however, even if you Plant your seed EVERYDAY 5x a day...it doesnt mean your seeds will grow. Though they may be doing 100% Prostation(physical) they are lacking in the mental/Spiritual Aspect of it when doing it.
Meaning, Theya re just going through the motions however perhaps thinking about something else (thus making the prostration in vain).
I think the mark on the forehead is relevent or rather has the Potential to be relevant.Its like a Diploma. It takes Years and Years of Hard work in school to recieve a Ph.D Deploma. However, there is always some rich kid who grow up spoiled, payed his way through College, Cheated on Exams, Lied to his Friends and teachers and STILL recieved a Ph.D. Does the Ph.D. Really Matter? well, I suppose No...NOT FOR
"HIM", however for the other kid who honestly works his way rightfully to get his Ph.D...yes it does matter for him. it is a Symbol and Fruit a badge of Honor showing how much he strived to go through. Thats how I will conclude that.You also admit that the non-physical "intention" of Mike is what matters. So the primary aspect of "sujud", even according to you is non-physical.
I would not say so. Why? Because There must be a Duality. Ying and a Yang.
(unless of course you honest cannot prostrate because your Paralyzed, but however Wished you could.)
I think that for me anyways, I would GAIN more out of my Salaat/Dua if I prostate...because Yes even though my Head (mental) would be in the right place at first...I tend to loose focus. I tend to only focus when I am Physically FORCED to do something. If I am Praying to God while driving...I usually end my prayer or forget surahs or do not feel Spiritually Saticfied...however when I STOP my actions and FORCE my body to PHYSICALLY bend my joints and prostrate to pray, I feel I gain more out of it and I dont have ADD (attention defficet disorder), I feel like i could focus more on "what" the message is I am trying to convey and what I wish to gain out of it.Listen RA786, you can prostrate towards a stone cube and walk around half naked in some white towels all you want, but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so. It is indeed HARAAM to say lies about the god.
Ayman I will Once gain tell you that you are making me Angry. >( And in a Polite way, I would really Apperciate it if you would stop this.
I do not like the part where you stated that I lied.but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so.
You are Falsy Accusing me of something I did not do. If you would like me to call you out...I could.
I could say that you are then breaking a Quranic Rule against Slander. I have Never Ever Ever EVER said
I RA786 amdoing it because the god told you (ME) so.
Please dont slander. I have never said that...I have please Copy and Paste it so I can see. I dont believe I said God told me to go around a Stone in white Sheets. If I in FACT did and forgot then I Sincearly Appoligize to you and everone here for forgetting.Where in the great reading does it say to make physical prostration to/towards a stone cube?
According to my Current knowldge of Islam (I am a new convert, roughly 2 years now) and my Interpretation, The Kaba in Mecca is the Quibla.
So I pray towards it as that is what I know/been taught. I have Already read this debate with you and Edip on this aswell as heard Everyone's interpretation from Layth, Simple, herbman, Sarah, etc...etc...etc...etc...
So I wish not to debate this tedious topic. I have my interpretation and you have yours. At a latter time When I am ready to fully understand and expound on Quranic Knowldge I might reconsiter. For now, I feel its either Jerusalam or its Mecca...and I have more on Mecca then Jerusalam. DWhere in the great reading does it say to wear some white sheets?
Nowhere that I have heard. I am not arguing this fact, I admit I agree with you on this one.
As I said, you can wear white sheets or walk naked or do whatever you want. But if you say that you are doing it because the god told you to do it then you better bring evidence from the great reading (which I know you can't). In my book, this makes you a liar against the god
.I Would never (Conciously) Attribute a Lie to God Mr. Ayman. police Watch your Tone Cheif! police
I only said or believed that Allah has told me to do Hajj (Pilrgimage)...however I agree that I have NEVER heard Allah Tell me to Dress in white sheets and circle a Black box 7 times chanting his name.The ONLY thing I heard Allah say (in the Quran) is to make the Hajj, feed the Poor, resist fighting, Send a Gift, vistit the house, and no blame on me if I decide to go around Safa and Mawrah (sighns of God).... Thats ALL I read from Allah. (I admit this and have never stated otherwise...unless I forgot).
Once again, you admit that the important thing is not the physical but the non-physical, thereby contradicting yourself.
I have not said this...This is actually YOUR conclusion...not Mine.
Please be well advised that I do not believe the Important thing is the mental or physical apect. I believe in Duality (at least for myself) as the best means for creating a daily conection with Allah. I feel that an ARM is just as Important as a Leg...or for a better example...a Mental Hijab is just as Important as a Physical one.
to me one with out the other may not be 100% to my needs. I require both, unless I am physically unable to do so and must then sacrifice my physical prostraion...and really really really try hard to improve my mental. (such as if I was sick or was physically unable to do so as I was on a Bus or plane.) to me Mental is bare minumum...perhaps still acceptible but bear minumum. add the physical and you got one cool Prayer!P.s. About the White Sheets and circling the Kaba 7 times etc....
Yes It may not be in the Quran...but does this make it Bad and Haraam? is All tradition Haraam? or is ONLY the Tradition that is Shirk Haraam?you see I have realized something... I think that Tradtional Islam may not be bad afterall. Maybe just Maybe... The ONLY BAD thing about Tradtional Islam is the Shirk and Abrogative Hadiths to the Quran.
But what If we cut those two things out? would it STILL be bad?
American Tradition Style Islam, Middle Eastern Meccan Traditional Style Islam, and even Chinese Traditional Style Islam is ALL compatible with The QUran and can be Followed as long as it fits this Criteria.
1)No Shirk.
2)No Abrogative/Contradictive teachings.So really as long as you arent doing those two things... Maybe ANY cultural tradition is Good and Compatible with Islam. Right?
If I Circle the Kaba 7 times in a white sheet because I feel this Is Hajj according to my interpretation, I have not added another Name (Partner to Allah) and I have not Abrogated any verese of the Quran....Then is what I am doing Bad in any way?
am I going against Allah? Am I harming anyone? Am I disobeying?
Peace/Salaam
EDIT. P.s.s.
My father and I used to play the Punch Bug Game where when you are driving and see a Punch bug you have to Quickly punch someone and scream punch bug!
http//i151.photobucket.com/albums/s153/Boo2_07/untitled-12.jpg
Then, We decided to not punch and only say "punch bug".
For some odd reason my dad decided to make a new rule to the game...that whenever you see one and say punch bug...you also have to say "Subhanallah" or "Alhumdulilah". (some type of glory to god).So, it kind just stuck and whenever we see one the Automatic thought comes to mind PUNCH BUG!.......SUBHANALLAH!
So...This family tradion I Practice...Is it Pegan? am I now a Pegan Polytheist no good Transgressing hypocrate?
I mean...is this a tradition that was ordained by Allah in the Quran?...or did we just make this up?..and if we did...is it pegan and wrong?
I dont think so...becuase the Intention is Good. D I am not worshipping the Car nor am I adding it as a Partner to Allah. -
in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.the problem is that traditionalists argue they are not like idol worshippers, but they want every mosque facing Mekah? every one should pray in Arabic,
the pilgrimage is fixed to a place which is considered more sacred than any other place.
They blame the pagan rituals and offerings as waste but never care to see how much they waste when they do their Hajj,
they want people to use the lunar arabic calendar, even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.Ultimately many are fooled that the Arabic language and culture is the chosen one, these people were dragged from their native culture to a completely alien corrupted system that has no chance for improvement. infact they are worshipping an idol called Arabian Sunnah solely based on Hadiths without thinking.
Their lands/countries really speak of their religion, how peacefull Islamic they are? ).
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Dear Ayman
Dude....... You can argue until the cows come home that the earth is square and the moon is a triangle. It doesn't matter what you say, the reality is you have well and truly lost the plot.
The plain and simple truth is that you are jealous of the Muslims. Period.
And yes, God did tell us to Pray, God did tell us to Fast, God did tell us to give in Charity and God did tell us to perform Pilgrimage. Get over it. Don't hate.
And finally to wrap up, God also told us to beware of people like you
278 And there are among them unlettered people who have no real knowledge of the divine writ, only wishful beliefs and depending on nothing but conjecture.
427 And God wants to turn unto you in His mercy, whereas those who follow their own lusts want you to drift far away from the right path.
6116 Now if thou pay heed unto the majority of those on earth, they will but lead thee astray from the path of God they follow but conjectures, and they themselves do nothing but guess.
Now I suggest you come up with another conspiracy theory and repeat yourself like a parrot that we are all idol worshipers following pagan rituals blah blah blah, otherwise you will be breaking from the 'norm' and we don't want that now do we.
Peace
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in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.the problem is that traditionalists argue they are not like idol worshippers, but they want every mosque facing Mekah? every one should pray in Arabic,
the pilgrimage is fixed to a place which is considered more sacred than any other place.
They blame the pagan rituals and offerings as waste but never care to see how much they waste when they do their Hajj,
they want people to use the lunar arabic calendar, even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.Ultimately many are fooled that the Arabic language and culture is the chosen one, these people were dragged from their native culture to a completely alien corrupted system that has no chance for improvement. infact they are worshipping an idol called Arabian Sunnah solely based on Hadiths without thinking.
Their lands/countries really speak of their religion, how peacefull Islamic they are? ).
It is Obvious that there are Similarities between a Traditionalist Muslim's Ritual Prayer and a Pegan Ritual Prayer.
Be be Fair. There is a Difference two.... What kind of Difference... SHIRK....(Thats a BIG BIG difference, in fact thats so bog of a difference that it can lead someone to hell)Traditional Sunni Shia Muslims Create a Dogmatic Religion where there is No Open Mind and One way is the ONLY way (yet they diagree on this way.)
Of this You are right.But some Quran Aloners make the Mistake of destroying that dogmatic Traditionalist system and place it with another.
I feel We (ths,zulu,Ra786) have not done that, however I Feel Ayman has.I dont think my ritual prayer is the ONLY correct way, The Quran is Open Enough to Allow Many ways.
So just Like We (Ths, Ra786, Zulu) Should Not creat a Dogmatic Religion....
Ayman should not create one either. Just becuase He doesnt believe in the way we pray doesnt mean his way is correct and we are nothing but hypocritic Pegan Indolitry satanic polytheist worshipers. HE is acting just like a Sunni/Shia Traditional muslims saying HIS way is the Good way and ours is Incorrect, and you are basically helpping him.We are just Discussing/Debating. If You all feel NO PROSTRATION is Correct then by all means Carry on, However dont accuse us or imply that our way is Polytheist or Pegan. thats a wicked allegation.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God
But What If I DO think they are Imporatant and Ordained by God / Wanted by Me? am I not Truley Following One God?
You have created a Fallacy. You say that sice I believe in this way, I am not Following The Only True God.
Then what God am I following? Have I said a name other than Allah? Have I cut a goats head in another name? Have I participated ina Cult Ritual?
NO. Therefore you claim hold NO validity.You basically believe Just like Ayman, that "Your way is Correct and our is Pegan/Wrong."
Its Funny Ironic......Perhaps You and Ayman have Become the thing You hate You hated the Dogmatic Sunnis/Shia's yet have become Dogmatic yourself.
A Good Example is Thos Who Encourage Muslim Women to Take Off their Hijab by saying its a Symbol of Intolerance and Oppression, Then They Create Laws to BAN any WOman from wearing Hijab completeley. They Liberated the Oppressed Women who were Forced to wear hijab in the Begining Only to now Oppress them by Forcing them to Take it off Forever, Instead of Just Giving them a Choice.
They can Wear it if they Truley want to, or They can take it off if they Truley want to. However not making any law that forces the women to do either or.
My Salaat is Not the ONLY way, Ths's salaat is not the only way Ayman's isnt the Only way and Wakas and you.
But Apparently, anyone who doesnt follow you and Ayman is a Pegan?I never gave this type of Ultimatum. Ths never gave or implied this type of ultimatum. Look in the mirror.
Salaam/Peace
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peace amin
in many ways the traditional ritual prayer can be compared with that of the pagan way of worship. if anyone thinks that their way of worship is the only correct one to remember/reach GOD, thats called idol worshipping? idols have forms and splits people so do rituals.
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.It seems that you do not know what "ritual" means
I've seen these statements bandied around this forum for a long time now, so I think it's time to put a stop to them.
The following definitions are taken from here http//dictionary.reference.com/browse/ritual
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an established or prescribed procedure for a religious or other rite.
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any practice or pattern of behavior regularly performed in a set manner.
Now, this
until anyone thinks rituals are not important and not wanted by God, he is not truly following the only true God.
is an absolutely incorrect statement, because God tells us that salah is a TIMED decree
This means that you do it every single day, and that God, in fact, loves rituals and thinks they are important.So hopefully that will stop the ridiculous people trolling these forums talking about God hating rituals.
even there are rules in some places they should wear a cap or cover their head to look like an Arab.
Where is this??
And Arabs don't wear caps -
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Salaam all,
Just a clarification
RA786
I disagree with THS saying that ONLY muslims have the mark, because I think ANYONE who prostrates will develoupe one...
I haven't talked at all about the 'marks on their faces' passage..might have been zulu
Ayman
Can you read Arabic? If not then ask THS, who knows Arabic, to underline the word "the chins" for you in the passage.
Brother Ayman, I don't know if you've read my views on this, but you can find them here, and in many previous posts.
I'm interested to hear your views on them if you care to share.And lastly, just an appeal to everyone
How about we all stop the shit-flinging and talk to each other as adults. This thread is making me feel like I'm in high school.
I think it's reflective of the general mentality at freeminds that conversations are incapable of being had without turning it into a teen pissing contest - or maybe everyone here ARE teens -
RA786
I haven't talked at all about the 'marks on their faces' passage..might have been zuluYeah sorry, that was Zulu....and it was a misquote anyways. D
or maybe everyone here ARE teens
well I am 19 till next week....so.... I guess I still have time to be a kid.
Piss Contest Anyone? rotfl
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Yep. It was my quote and I stand by it.
Actually I think I misquoted you Zulu.
You said that the ONLY people who YOU have witness that have the Mark on their forheads are Believers (muslims).
and that is fine. that is according to your knowledge.However, My Misquote was Zulu belueves that ONLY muslims get that mark.
(and I disagree with that because I think there are others who get that mark even though they are not muslim, for example Some Hindu's or Buddhists might get that mark because they Prostrate too.)So Even Non-muslims get a Prostration Mark somtimes....its just that Muslims are more recognized as having it.
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Salaam Hope4,
Firstly, I haven't read through the entire book, but I've just skimmed through and wanted to convey my dismay! What an insecure person this author must be! The whole thing is about Arabs!
"the Arab religion" - I'm seeing this term bandied around quite a lot...what does that mean?? Many of the most well respected exegetes were Persians and central Asians. Even the greatest grammarians, Sibawaih amongst others, were Persians
Or how about this
Part 1 - "God is not an Arab"
hahaha really? I'm surprised to hear that someone suggested he IS an Arab. This chapter is ridiculous...no one says you have to pray in Arabic! Sunnis do NOT say that. People merely encourage learning Arabic because it is the language that the Quran is written in. And if you can't comprehend what an important role poetics, rhetoric and eloquence (balaaghah), and richness of language play in the Quran - then you are missing PLENTY of knowledge
Part 3 - "The Arab Religion"
Part 3 - Arab religious laws
Part 3 - Arab ritual prayer
Part 5 - How the Arabs do the ?Sol-laa shuffle?or what about this
A table on page 61 under 'The conspiracies" (what terrible usage of the word conspiracies!)
The column headers are "Arabic Word" - "Arab Corruption" - "Fundamental Meaning"
Or this
Part 12 - A message to Arab religionists
So I don't know what Arabs have done to this guy...but the poor guy really has an axe to grind.
I read Part 2 "There is no religion of God" and really liked it so far, so I'm hoping his arguments aren't as fraught with paranoia as his emotions are
I'll take a better look and let you know about the arguments he proposes
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Selam all
What do you think of salat in this book? http//www.aididsafar.com/pdf/Mental%20Bondage.pdf
Interested to hear of the different views.
Peace
Page 139.
Why does the Author Feel repeating Surah 108 in Salaat (ritual prayer form) is inappropiate?
As If to say, It is Inapropiate to say certin verses to God?Well so I guess People who do ritual prayers are Arrogant Boastful Egotistic Polytheist Pegan Worshipers.
Before It was Only Those who added Partners to Allah, Now lets take it a step futher ANYONE who Prostrates to Allah in prayer is an Apostate of Islam and is a Hypocrate and is a Pegan idol worshiper and deserves no honor. police
Dont bow to Nothing...not even Allah! police
Lest you be one of the Polytheists! police
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Peace RA768,
Wow Ayman, You really Are the BEST bravo .... To be honest I did not believe it, I didnt believe it at all until I got a tase of you... Its true, you really are the best at not only making absurd claims but twisting and turning a conversation around. I am a Pro-Se, Gee, if I Ever need a Lawyer Ill be sure to give you a call. laugh
1st I Do NOT apperciate that you have said yuck Please dont insinuate that I am blind and also please Stay on topic. I have NEVER once in this thread said ANYTHING about Skin type and believers only having Prayer Marks. It not only is creating a False and Irrelavant Derailing Topic, but it gives a false Illusion that that was what I said thus making me look like an ignorant Racist Muslim (and I have never said that)
That is like me saying "Ayman!? Common brother! Are you really that cold hearted that you feel Aborting grown babies is totally cool and trendy!?"
See what I just did? I created a False story that never happened and now everyone who isnt paying attention thinks "oh wow, ayman is a real mean guy, he likes grown aborted babies."
So please...I am Not a Racist Muslim who thinks that Only Dark skinned Believers get a Prostration Mark. Stay ON TOPIC!Since getting the mark depends on skin type then it is implied in your reasoning that skin type is more important than piety. So in your world a very bad person or a terrorist or someone who physically prostrates to physical idols with the skin type that easily gets marked with contact and has a physical mark is more pious than a good person with a skin type that doesn't get marked with extended contact. Of course you didn't say this directly but it is implied by your strange logic.
Actually I disagree with you hear. It can have alot to do with the believers and Piety in the sense that there are ALOT of muslims who have it because they pray alot. And Because They Pray alot therefore they feel closer to God and are more motivated personnally to do zakat, and other Islamic Good things.
However there are some "Bad Apples" who Also have the Mark and they Still do bad things and are far from god and are terrorists.
So who wins the Good guys or the Terrorists?
I dont think its that easy for us to say.There you go with the contradictory nonsense again that a physical mark "has a lot to do with the believers and piety." You then contradict yourself again and admit that bad people will have the same exact mark as good guys. So you know that the physical mark is irrelevant and yet you insist on this nonsense. This is a sign that you are lost.
I would Conclude that for the "Good Muslims with the Prostration Mark" they not only (obviously) do Physical Prayer, but mental. (A combination, where faith has Truley entered in their heart.)
Then I would say that the "Terrorist Bad Muslims who also have the Prostration Mark" Do Prayer just like the Above (good guys) however Faith has NOT entered their heart and all they are doing is Excersise. They are merely repeating words, doing motions, and ultimatley Achieving NOTHING.Your conclusion is 100% false. How do you know that they are "good muslims"? How about "good muslims" without the physical mark? Are they not as pious? It is NOT a combination. The physical mark is 100% irrelevant.
Ayman I will Once gain tell you that you are making me Angry. > And in a Polite way, I would really Apperciate it if you would stop this.
I do not like the part where you stated that I lied.You are Falsy Accusing me of something I did not do. If you would like me to call you out...I could.
I could say that you are then breaking a Quranic Rule against Slander. I have Never Ever Ever EVER said Please dont slander. I have never said that...I have please Copy and Paste it so I can see. I dont believe I said God told me to go around a Stone in white Sheets. If I in FACT did and forgot then I Sincearly Appoligize to you and everone here for forgetting.
According to my Current knowldge of Islam (I am a new convert, roughly 2 years now) and my Interpretation, The Kaba in Mecca is the Quibla.
So I pray towards it as that is what I know/been taught. I have Already read this debate with you and Edip on this aswell as heard Everyone's interpretation from Layth, Simple, herbman, Sarah, etc...etc...etc...etc...
So I wish not to debate this tedious topic. I have my interpretation and you have yours. At a latter time When I am ready to fully understand and expound on Quranic Knowldge I might reconsiter. For now, I feel its either Jerusalam or its Mecca...and I have more on Mecca then Jerusalam.Irrespective of those debates, why would you wear those white sheets?
Those white sheets have a direct relation to the false pagan idea that you would return sinless like a newborn if you kiss the black stone and spin 7 times around a black cube.
Nowhere that I have heard. I am not arguing this fact, I admit I agree with you on this one.
It is good that unlike Zulu, you are decent and mature enough to admit that the god never told you to go around any stone in white sheets.
I Would never (Conciously) Attribute a Lie to God Mr. Ayman. police Watch your Tone Cheif! police
I only said or believed that Allah has told me to do Hajj (Pilrgimage)...however I agree that I have NEVER heard Allah Tell me to Dress in white sheets and circle a Black box 7 times chanting his name.Or kiss a black stone or that you will return sinless like a newborn upon doing those things.
It doesn't matter if you are doing it conciously or unconciously, the result is the same. Most, if not all, Christians and Sunnis will equally claim that they are not attributing lies to the god.
The question is now that YOU KNOW that those are lies, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
Are you going to continue to happily believe in spinning 7 times around a black box and kissing or weaving to a black stone while wearing white sheets?
The ONLY thing I heard Allah say (in the Quran) is to make the Hajj, feed the Poor, resist fighting, Send a Gift, vistit the house, and no blame on me if I decide to go around Safa and Mawrah (sighns of God).... Thats ALL I read from Allah. (I admit this and have never stated otherwise...unless I forgot).
So you know that wearing white sheets and spinning 7 times around a cube has nothing to so with what you know is the purpose of "hajj"! What are you going to do about it?
I have not said this...This is actually YOUR conclusion...not Mine.
Please be well advised that I do not believe the Important thing is the mental or physical apect. I believe in Duality (at least for myself) as the best means for creating a daily conection with Allah. I feel that an ARM is just as Important as a Leg...or for a better example...a Mental Hijab is just as Important as a Physical one.
to me one with out the other may not be 100% to my needs. I require both, unless I am physically unable to do so and must then sacrifice my physical prostraion...and really really really try hard to improve my mental. (such as if I was sick or was physically unable to do so as I was on a Bus or plane.) to me Mental is bare minumum...perhaps still acceptible but bear minumum. add the physical and you got one cool Prayer!If you really believe in duality and in the physical aspect being important then you would need to interpret the passages physically. If you interpret them physically then "sujud" must be to the chin and not the forehead!
P.s. About the White Sheets and circling the Kaba 7 times etc....
Yes It may not be in the Quran...but does this make it Bad and Haraam? is All tradition Haraam? or is ONLY the Tradition that is Shirk Haraam?Yes it is bad and HARAAM to take what you admit to have no knoweldge of and make it part of what the god has asked you to do. It is bad to follow blindly. Especially, in this case the white sheets and the spinning 7 times around a black cube have NOTHING to do with the purposes of "hajj" and have everything to do with the false purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn".
you see I have realized something... I think that Tradtional Islam may not be bad afterall. Maybe just Maybe... The ONLY BAD thing about Tradtional Islam is the Shirk and Abrogative Hadiths to the Quran.
What else is worst than "shirk" (the only unforgiveable sin)?! Yet you happily and blindly follow the path of those who commit "shirk".
But what If we cut those two things out? would it STILL be bad?
You didn't cut them out. You are still following them blindly!
If anything, you added new junk such as Code 19 and Khalifa's Hadiths with which you abrogate the great reading!
Peace,
Ayman
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Selam
Thanks for your replies. I am still reading the text so do not have an overall view yet. So far I get the impression he is trying to say that Islam is not a religion. He implies that it is a system or way of life with no rituals and which he claims that men have invented the ritual part. It is a new concept to me and a different way at looking at things. There is a website which you can put questions to him or read others who have questioned his views/beliefs etc and read the replies. http//mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/
Peace
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Peace ths,
Ayman
Brother Ayman, I don't know if you've read my views on this, but you can find them here, and in many previous posts.
I'm interested to hear your views on them if you care to share.Since you are an Arabic speaker, then I will try to be brief and hopefully what I am about to say should be easy to understand.
Grammatically, the accusative word "sujjudan" in "yakhorruun lil2adhqaan sujjudan" names the action or manner of the verb preceding.
So, take this example
I fell in the hole intact
So the type or manner of your fall is that you fell intact.
There could be two situations, either you fell in a physical hole or it is an idiom for falling in trouble. Since it names the action that came before it, then if it was a physical action (i.e., literally falling in a physical hole) then "intact" must also be physical (i.e., with no broken limbs). On the other hand, if "fell in the hole" is an idiom for falling in trouble then "intact" is also an idiom and doesn't mean physically intact (i.e., with no broken limbs). Because it describes the manner of the preceding action, it can't be literal while the action is idiomatic. So you can't say for example, that "fell in a hole" is an idiom but "intact" is physical meaning with no broken limbs.
So you answered your own objections in the following statement to Wakas
"From Lane's Lexicon, we can infer that the phrase "kharruu lil2adhqaan" can be used to denote anything falling over surprisingly/swiftly/eagerly/completely
It is a poetic device"You were right. It is an idiom (a poetic device). It follows that "sujjadan" names the action of the idiom yakhorruun lil2adhqaan. In other words, it describes how "they fell to the chins". So if "they fell to the chins" is an idiom as you admit then "sujjadan" is also idiomatic and is not physical.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Hope4,
Selam
Thanks for your replies. I am still reading the text so do not have an overall view yet. So far I get the impression he is trying to say that Islam is not a religion. He implies that it is a system or way of life with no rituals and which he claims that men have invented the ritual part. It is a new concept to me and a different way at looking at things. There is a website which you can put questions to him or read others who have questioned his views/beliefs etc and read the replies. http//mentalbondageinthenameofgod.wordpress.com/
PeaceAidid makes a lot of linguistic and logical mistakes. His work is emotionally charged, and he relied too much on making his arguments strong compared to the sectarian arguments as opposed to based on studying the great reading. Of course, given that sectarians are illogical, any half-baked argument would sound good compared to their arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
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Peace Hope4,
Aidid makes a lot of linguistic and logical mistakes. His work is emotionally charged, and he relied too much on making his arguments strong compared to the sectarian arguments as opposed to based on studying the great reading. Of course, given that sectarians are illogical, any half-baked argument would sound good compared to their arguments.
Peace,
Ayman
Peace Ayman
Thank you for your comment, he does actually sound emotionally charged ;D However, I have one question. Is his claim of Islam not being a religion and not having rituals have any basis?
Peace
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peace Hope4,
please see http//www.misconceptions-about-islam.com/islam-religion.htmlThe word "ritual" is a simple and common word, and can mean
#any customary observance or practice
#the prescribed procedure for conducting religious ceremoniesThe first definition can include brushing one's teeth for example, and there is nothing wrong in such a "ritual". Rituals by themselves are not wrong, but a ritual that has no basis in AQ or its principles is most likely wrong.
I forgot to say I 100% agree with bro Ayman's previous reply (#136) about Aidid's work.
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Since getting the mark depends on skin type then it is implied in your reasoning that skin type is more important than piety. So in your world a very bad person or a terrorist or someone who physically prostrates to physical idols with the skin type that easily gets marked with contact and has a physical mark is more pious than a good person with a skin type that doesn't get marked with extended contact. Of course you didn't say this directly but it is implied by your strange logic.
This is your conclusion based off of your interpretation not mine. You cannot tell me what I mean or intend if you have absolutely no knowledge of what I am thinking. (unless you can read minds). This is NOT the Prospective that I believe nor is it my conclusion. It is you interpretation and conclusion based off of what I have said. How are you going to argue My Opinion?
You clearly are great at doing this. You belong in the court room. You right "So in your world..." no its not my world...you are making up your own ideas and claming they are mine by saying that thats what I INDIRECTLY meant.
You know what Ayamn, You INDIRECTLY like Grown Aborted babies because its a Trendy and cool thing to watch....
There you go with the contradictory nonsense again that a physical mark "has a lot to do with the believers and piety." You then contradict yourself again and admit that bad people will have the same exact mark as good guys. So you know that the physical mark is irrelevant and yet you insist on this nonsense. This is a sign that you are lost.
Your conclusion is 100% false. How do you know that they are "good muslims"? How about "good muslims" without the physical mark? Are they not as pious? It is NOT a combination. The physical mark is 100% irrelevant.
Call it what you will Ayman. There are Good Muslims who dont have the Prayer mark. (i dont have it)... I am just saying that that it is a Symbol.
Do you watch UFC and Boxing? There is a Symbol for fighters called "Colly Flower Ear". Not everyone who fights gets it.
But it is a badge of honor. It usually means that you have endured endless years of fighting...(and most people reach the conclusion that you are a Good Fighter because of it)However this is a Logical Fallacy. (yes I agree), because There are some guys who have Colly flower ear, and are STILL terrible at fighting. Yes they may have edured endless hours of fighting and training...But it becomes Irrelevant because somewhere down the line they lacked.
So in that respect...Yes it is Irrelevant for people like that.
But for All the fighters that I have ever meet in my life who have the colly flower ear....They are Great fighters.
(there are some a small minority who are great fighters and dont have it...But the Majority of GREAT fighters in the world...have colly flower ear...however this doent necessarily mean they are good fighters...You would say it is a coinsodence...Id say its a matter of Minority and Majority.The MAJORITY of great fighters have it....Key Word MAJORITY....so does majority mean irrelevant?
Irrespective of those debates, why would you wear those white sheets?
Those white sheets have a direct relation to the false pagan idea that you would return sinless like a newborn if you kiss the black stone and spin 7 times around a black cube.
I dont believe I will be sinless. and I dont believe in kissing the black stone.
Circling it and screaming Allah AKbar seems fun. So maybe thats why....because its fun. (and not haraam).The question is now that YOU KNOW that those are lies, WHAT ARE YOU GOING TO DO ABOUT IT?
Are you going to continue to happily believe in spinning 7 times around a black box and kissing or weaving to a black stone while wearing white sheets?
So you know that wearing white sheets and spinning 7 times around a cube has nothing to so with what you know is the purpose of "hajj"! What are you going to do about it?
Nothing, I think its fun. I think its pretty cool and a fu thing to do....as long as I am not Praying to Another Allah, or making Partners to Allah...What is realy wrong with screaming Allah Akbar in the desert at a black Box?
Why not do the same at my own house with a bunch of people? or at a Concert? I think its fun and traditional....Its only haram when its Shirk.
Yes it is bad and HARAAM to take what you admit to have no knoweldge of and make it part of what the god has asked you to do. It is bad to follow blindly. Especially, in this case the white sheets and the spinning 7 times around a black cube have NOTHING to do with the purposes of "hajj" and have everything to do with the false purpose of "returning sinless like a newborn".
You keep saying how bad it is by attributing Pegan-beliefs into it...However If you take the pegan beliefs out...you know I could be right.
What is really Wrong with dancing around a box saying Allah Akbar? As long as its not shirk....i dont see what the matter is.As long as you arent doing Shirk, or Breaking Quranic Rules...I dont see how following ANY TRADITION can be haraam.
Its only Haraam when it breaks Quran rules and commits shirk...(right)?If me and a bunch of Free-minders decided to dance around a Campfire wearing Yellow Jump Suits....and Said Allah Akbar... would that be Haraam?
