If Allah wants things to be easy for us, why so much confusion about salat?

[Wakas]

peace ths,

And I'm now satisfied with this answer.

That is a shame because your above post was very poor. To prove my point allow me to refute your view of "kharr" meaning a physical fall in relation to SJD, read each link in the following post
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598162.msg225018#msg225018

(a link I already referenced to you in this thread)

Please provide a rebuttal if possible. As I summarised in that thread

To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.

You will also see in that thread a fellow member (progressive1993) was adamant with his SJD view which was similar to yours, but after discussion concluded it was wrong in the end.

peace RA786,

I apologise for not replying fully earlier, as I was pressed for time.

Re 2238
The evidence is heavily weighted against "a middle prayer" from this verse. See past discussion, e.g.
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=7727.0

The view of SJD = physical prostration is a theoretical possibility, as I summarised in the thread above. I have no problem with it, unless a person says "this is from Quran", if so, then I have the right to request evidence. Simple.

Re 56
As far as I'm aware it means "when" not "if".

You, or maybe it was ths, asked about my view on "salat" as in how its done. See http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/slw.htm

Quite simply, if God gives you a book and you believe in this book and says "uphold the bond", then there is no need for further explanation. The bond of the believers/mumineen is to God and His system, thus a regular/timed reading of His book is a perfect way to remember/understand and thus "uphold the bond". The explanation is self-contained and perfect in its simplicity and practicality. This is my understanding.

[ths]

Salaam Wakas

Well firstly, I appreciate the time you're putting into responding to us, given that you've taken part in these discussions in the past, but it's very difficult to know what exactly to rebut when you post hours and hours worth of reading. There are plenty of arguments in those pages, so I'll do my best to respond to the ones I feel are most deserving. And if I miss something, please forgive me and bring it to my attention, as I'm not omitting it on purpose.

Ok so here goes

1. No decent alternatives proposed.

The links you provided have post after post filled with arguments as to why kharroo lilidhqaani sujjadan is not a physical prostration.
But I can't seem to find any viable alternative, other than the inference that it is only an idiomatic expression conveying some kind of general/obscure meaning related to obeying, or following.

2. Lane's Lexicon's definition.

LL gives a clear, concise answer to this whole discussion, and I can't understand why it is being ignored.
I'll repost it again since it received no comment

to fall down. kharra l-binaa2u The building fell down
kharra lillaahi saajidan He fell down prostrating himself to God
Or Kharra signifies He, or it, fell from a high to a low place
Faka2annamaa kharra min alsamaa2i .
And kharoo li2idhqaanihim inf. n. khuroor (A) 3asafat reehu fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2idhqaan .(A.)
You say also kharra (TA,) inf. n. kharru (K,) meaning He died (K,TA) because a man, when he dies, falls down. (TA.) In the Kur xxxiv. 13, it may mean He died, or he fell down. (TA.)__Also (kharra) He stumbled after going right. (TA.) __And kharrat kha6aayaah His sins fell ; went away ; or departed. (TA, from a trad.) __And kharra min al jibaali, inf. n. khuruur, He, (a man,) and it, (a stone, &c.,) rolled down from the mountain. (TA.) __And Al2a3raabu yukhirruuna min al bawaadee ila al-quraa The Arabs of the desert came down, or descend, from the deserts to the towns or villages. (A.)

Thus it is a known Classical Arabic saying 3asafat reehu fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2idhqaan .

You mention in one of the posts that you stumbled on Imru-l-Qays' poetry mentioning mighty trees falling to the chin in a storm. (That may be where this definition has been derived from).
However, the trees fell - so why did you interpret it simply as an act of humbling, when the most obvious meaning, again, is the physical action of falling completely.

Our answer seems to be sitting right there. It is a known, accepted Arabic saying, meant to signify something crashing to the ground with surprising capitulation, or submittance.

3. Analysis of all passages mentioning kharra

The root word KH-R-R is used 12 times in AQ
I shall try to be as unbiased as possible, giving equal weight to each possibility.

1. 17109 And they fall down upon their faces (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani) weeping; and it increases them in humility.'

Physical 80%
Mental 20%

2. 2573 And those who, when they are reminded of the revelations of their Lord, fall not deaf and blind thereat.

Physical 10%
Mental 90%

3. 1990 At it the skies are ready to burst, the earth to split asunder, and the mountains to fall down in utter ruin,

Physical 100%
Mental 0%

4. 17107 Say 'Believe in it, or believe not; those who were given the knowledge before it when it is recited to them, fall down upon their faces prostrating (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani sujjadan),

Physical 80%
Mental 20%

5. 3215 Only those believe in Our signs who, when they are reminded of them, fall down prostrate (kharruu sujjadan) and proclaim the praise of their Lord, not waxing proud.

Physical 50%
Mental 50%

6. 1626 Those that were before them contrived; then God came upon their building from the foundations, and the roof fell down on them from over them, and the chastisement came upon them from whence they were not aware.

Physical 100%
Mental 0%

7. 2231 Being true in faith to Allah, and never assigning partners to Him if anyone assigns partners to Allah, is as if he had fallen from heaven and been snatched up by birds, or the wind had swooped (like a bird on its prey) and thrown him into a far-distant place.

Physical 100%
Mental 0%

8. 1958 These are they whom God has blessed among the Prophets of the seed of Adam, and of those We bore with Noah, and of the seed of Abraham and Israel, and of those We guided and chose. When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping. (kharruu sujjadan wa bakiyyaa)

Physical 50%
Mental 50%

9. 12100 And he lifted his father and mother upon the throne; and the others fell down prostrate before him. (kharruu lahu sujjadan) 'See, father,' he said, 'this is the interpretation of my vision of long ago; my Lord has made it true. He was good to me when He brought me forth from the prison, and again when He brought you out of the desert, after that Satan set at variance me and my brethren. My Lord is gentle to what He will; He is the All-knowing, the All-wise.

Physical 25%
Mental 75%

10. 3824 Said he, 'Assuredly he has wronged thee in asking for thy ewe in addition to his sheep; and indeed many intermixers do injury one against the other, save those who believe, and do deeds of righteousness -- and how few they are!' And David thought that We had only tried him; therefore he sought forgiveness of his Lord, and he fell down, bowing, and he repented. (kharra raaki3an wa2anaaba)

Physical 90%
Mental 10%

11. 3414 Then, when We decreed (Solomon's) death, nothing showed them his death except a little worm of the earth, which kept (slowly) gnawing away at his staff so when he fell down, the Jinns saw plainly that if they had known the unseen, they would not have tarried in the humiliating Penalty (of their Task)

Physical 100% -- Physical here meaning death, as per Lane's Lexicon, see above.
Mental 0%

12. 7143 And when Moses came to Our appointed time and his Lord spoke with him, he said, 'Oh my Lord, show me, that I may behold Thee!' Said He, 'Thou shalt not see Me; but behold the mountain -- if it stays fast in its place, then thou shalt see Me.' And when his Lord revealed Him to the mountain He made it crumble to dust; and Moses fell down swooning. (kharra muusaa sa3iqan) So when he awoke, he said, 'Glory be to Thee! I repent to Thee; I am the first of the believers.'

Physical 90% -- Due to addition of "when he awoke"
Mental 10%

So the finally probability of kharra from these passages is

Physical 72.9
Mental 27.1

You make several mentions of verse 124 where Yusuf tells his father that he saw 11 stars and the sun and the moon prostrate to him.
This, along with 12100, where his parents and brothers are said to prostrate to him are considered to be the undoing of the word kharra meaning a physical action.

But,
according to tafsir (and the Quran itself) the 11 stars represent his brothers, and the sun and the moon represent his parents.
They might be prostrating themselves to him since he is in a position of great power, and we know for a fact that the ancient Egyptians prayed, or showed respect in this way.
Therefore, it is not implausible whatsoever to believe that he attained the position of grand vizier or regent or something like that, and the people were obligated to prostrate to him, which his family then did along with everyone else.

Conclusion

We can safely say that kharra means physically falling to the ground.
We also know that it is an Arabic saying that when something kharra lilidhqaani, it means that it fell to the ground. (3asafat reehu fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2idhqaan )

So I still maintain, that despite the (considerable) evidence put forth in your links, sujood is a physical (and mental) action due to
a) it's repeated usage along with kharra
b) the illogicality of having so many other words with physical connotations, and then sujood, which can hold a physical connotation, meaning something entirely mental
c) the illogicality of having to then translate standing, revolving, and many other words with obvious physical meanings to mental ones, simply to suit the proposed hypothesis that sujood is a purely mental act.

[zulu12]

Dear ths

I really do take my hat off to you buddy. You have got the utmost patience to be arguing with some people concerning the concept of prostration. If it was ever something non physical and just a figure of speech or better still, a packet of cream crackers because that is the only thing left to say, then how can anyone explain the following ayat?

4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

What marks on the faces is the Quran talking about? Is this some sort of secret code that only the Illuminati can see or something? No. It is plain and clear.

I have never ever in my life seen anyone with marks on their faces purely by doing mental arithmetic, mental prayers, mental revision or anything mental as a matter of fact. What marks do you see on the face of Psychiatrists? They do every mental don't they?

The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground. This is evident all over the world. I have seen this from China, right across the Middle East, Europe, Africa, USA and Latin America. I guarantee you one thing. No mattter where you go in the world, you will see Muslims with marks on their faces (foreheads) due to physical sujood.

Brother, I originallly came on here thinking that I may have something in common with the PM's, but all I can say is that they have well and truly 'lost the plot'. The conjecture, confusion, made up stories, interpretations, this meaning, that meaning, utter nonsense and contempt for the majority of Muslims who don't see things their way, just takes the biscuit.

In another post, I made a comment which I will make again here and expand a little further because I think it is relevant with the PM's logic of thought and reasoning. The only thing left for them to translate is the full stop. Yes, the full stop (.) They will give you a meaning on the lines of 'well according to the Lanes Lexicon's definition and the online Arabic to English translation which is not corrupted by the traditionalists, the full stop means a physical act of worship. The root word of this full stop is derived from blah blah bah which came into existence just after the Ice Age and is a noun and a verb combined, which means that it can be used to describe the physical act of prayer. Because no other word can describe prayer better than the full stop, it is in it's purest form and has never been hijacked. Prayer is really all in the mind. As long as you know it is in the mind and you don't worship God, you will be alright by fully accepting the full stop as part of your daily alone time with God'.

I hope you find the answers you are looking for, but I very much doubt they will be at this Forum. The positive thing I can say for myself whilst being here is that, I realised that the way I was taught was never wrong in the first place. A few minor changes here and there which I had already enforced years ago, but on the whole, it was always correct.

Prayer, Saum, Zakat, Hajj - the whole lot.

Peace

[Wakas]

peace ths,

Firstly, I did not provide a link with "hours and hours" of reading. My link pointed to a post which referred to very specific posts, not entire threads! I recommend re-evaluating your study method.

Re 1)
"khrr" can mean "to fall completely" i.e. maximum/significant, do something to the utmost, and is used this way in AQ. FACT, e.g. see the verse "fall on them (signs) deaf and blind".

Re 2)
Lane is an excellent resource, however, like any dictionary, it is not perfect and should not be used without the application of reasoning/logic. Lane lists a variety of meanings which is fine, but he interestingly states dh-q-n means "chin" then removes this meaning and inserts ground instead when it comes to a tree. Professor Mustansir Mir (who is known for his linguistic skills) takes it as an idiom as I have already mentioned. AQ used th-q-n to mean "chin". But even if we took it to mean "ground" my point still remains. What point you may ask?
Exactly. The most interesting thing about your reply was you completely ignored my strongest point.

Re 3)
Instead you set about proving khrr means a physical fall when unrelated to SJD. Did I say any different? No. You created a strawman logical fallacy, yet use terms such as "illogicality". Not to mention you provided subjective and effectively useless % weightings.

Re 5) (you missed out 4)
Yes, theoretically, they could have physically prostrated to/for Joseph. However, that implies Joseph allowed it and thus possibly violated the principles of 4137, 2725 and perhaps others. Hence translators/commentators not opting for this option. But in any case, it is moot, because this understanding is refuted by cross-reference as blatantly mentioned in the post I referred to
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598350.msg202325#msg202325

Allow me to quote it for you

Here, the article uses the correlation between 124 and 12100 to imply it does mean "prostration", BUT using the same logic, what about the correlation between the sjd and fall/khrr sjd (i.e. the exact same comparison)? If you are equating them in 124 and 12100, then if you take prostration for one, you should take prostration for the other, otherwise it will be logically inconsistant and/or a contradiction in one's views. Thus, the implication is, whenever one hears AQ, they should physically prostrate if one holds the same view as the article on this point.
Unless, it can be explained away of course.

Of course, with the recent evidence on 4102, we know "fall sjd" can only be idiomatic / non-physical, but for those with a sjd/prostration understanding, they are between a rock and a hard place, as the idiomatic expression goes.

Please note I will not respond any further unless new points are brought up. Most of my points I am just repeating what I already referred you to or can be studied using the same tools I use www.StudyQuran.org

"The perfect way is only difficult for those who pick and choose. Do not like, do not dislike; all will then be clear. Make a hairbreadth difference and heaven and earth are set apart; if you want the truth to stand clear before you, never be for or against. The struggle between "for" and "against" is the mind's worst disease."

[Wakas]

ra786, zulu, ths, all,

You may find the following thread very interesting
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9596813.0

As a side note, I also received several personal messages of endorsement of the above observation, even though it is not my own.

[ayman]

Peace Zulu,

I really do take my hat off to you buddy. You have got the utmost patience to be arguing with some people concerning the concept of prostration. If it was ever something non physical and just a figure of speech or better still, a packet of cream crackers because that is the only thing left to say, then how can anyone explain the following ayat?

4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration. This is their similitude in the Taurat; and their similitude in the Gospel is like a seed which sends forth its blade, then makes it strong; it then becomes thick, and it stands on its own stem, (filling) the sowers with wonder and delight. As a result, it fills the Unbelievers with rage at them. Allah has promised those among them who believe and do righteous deeds forgiveness, and a great Reward.

What marks on the faces is the Quran talking about? Is this some sort of secret code that only the Illuminati can see or something? No. It is plain and clear.

I have never ever in my life seen anyone with marks on their faces purely by doing mental arithmetic, mental prayers, mental revision or anything mental as a matter of fact. What marks do you see on the face of Psychiatrists? They do every mental don't they?

The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground. This is evident all over the world. I have seen this from China, right across the Middle East, Europe, Africa, USA and Latin America. I guarantee you one thing. No mattter where you go in the world, you will see Muslims with marks on their faces (foreheads) due to physical sujood.

This is typical superficial Sunni irational thinking obssessed with physical marks, which mean nothing except in their imagination. This guy has a physical mark on his forehead too from physically prostrating his forehead

http//img209.imageshack.us/img209/1758/56766902.jpg

According to your ridiculous logic, he is a "muslim"!

Brother, I originallly came on here thinking that I may have something in common with the PM's, but all I can say is that they have well and truly 'lost the plot'. The conjecture, confusion, made up stories, interpretations, this meaning, that meaning, utter nonsense and contempt for the majority of Muslims who don't see things their way, just takes the biscuit.

You are right. You have more in common with those guys

http//img689.imageshack.us/img689/2799/hindupilgrims01.jpg

You even wear the same uniform on your pagan pilgrimage!

If you really think that prostration is physical then you would need to prostrate to the chin and not the forehead as clearly indicated in 17107 (if you take it physically). But you are not interested in obeying the god. You are intrested in blindly following your forefathers. In fact, the only time the forehead is mentioned is in CONTRAST to prostration

096.015-19
SHAKIR
Nay! if he desist not, We would certainly smite his forehead,
A lying, sinful forehead.
Then let him summon his council,
We too would summon the braves of the army.
Nay! obey him not, and make obeisance and draw nigh (to Allah).

Peace,

Ayman

[abdalquran]

I agree that sajda is not physically praying but I like physical praying a lot. I do it once a week.

Ayman, so what if he has something in common with the guys in the last picture? Whats wrong with the guys in the last picture?

[RA786]

This is like comparing Apples to Oranges.

Prostrating to a Statue of Buddah is Different from Prostrating to Allah.
Prostrating to a Statue of a Snake with wings is Different from prostrating to a black box called the Kaba or the Rock at Temple Mount Dome Rock.

Just beauce a Pegan Sacrificial Mayan has a Mark on his Forehead...Doesnt mean that he is Equal to a Muslim who has a Mark on his Forehead.
I disagree with THS saying that ONLY muslims have the mark, because I think ANYONE who prostrates will develoupe one...
HOWEVER, I will admit...I have NEVER EVER seen a non-muslim with a Prostration mark.
Catholics are known for doing hand to head (father,son,holy spirit) and Muslims are Known for Prostration marks.

Making a Sacrifice to Allah by sacrificing a Goat or Lamb and feeding the poor...... Is Different that sacraficing a goat's head to satan in a pegan Orgy Blood Sex ritual with a Cult.

Making a Pilgrimage to a Mosque is different then making a pilgrimage to a Satanic temple of Ritual.

Ayman is COMPLETELY missing the point and creating a fallacy.

If "Mike" is Prostrating on the ground or even towards the kaba(or temple Rock) and he is praying to Allah and his intention is Genuine because this is Honestly how he interpretes the verese and wishes to accomplish his goal of being Closer to Allah by performing a Physical Prostration while reciting Quran...

This in NO WAY makes him the same as a satanist prostrater. And Just beaucase The Satanist Prostrater and the Muslim have Makrs on their forehead doesnt mean they are the same. Thats UNFAIR of Ayman. very Unfair.

*Where in the Quran does it say "Do Not Make ANY Physical Prostration to Allah while Reciting Quran and Asking for Guidence...ITS HARAAM!"
*Where in the Quran does it say "Do not wear White Sheets because Pegans do...Its HARAAAM!"

So now, we cant wear white sheets, and cant prostrate because we would be consittered Pegan?
(But doesnt pegan mean have false gods? how can we fit the actions of pegans if we have ALLAH as our God?) hmm

You cant keep using the old..."Pegans did it...so it must be bad!"

well pegans Drink Orange Juice, so now I feel to be a Better muslim...we need to stop drinking OJ!
Pegans also like to shave their heads....So now I feel we as Muslim must never cut our hair!
oppss Uh oh! Pegans Also believe to Never cut your hair! Oh no what do we do!?

Just because Pegans use Physical Prostration as their Means in Making Ritual Prayers, Doesnt Automatically Make ANY AND ALL physical prayers negitive and pegan.
They cant Coin and own the copy rights to physical Prostration. its not an All or nothing.

What makes the difference is the Words being said and the Thoughts that are being Manifested/Intention/meaning.
Thats what makes the difference between a Pegans prayer and a Muslims prayer.

Be Fair Ayman, and please dont go back to your "Pegans DID IT so it must be bad" argument all the time.

[zulu12]

Dear Ayman

Please read and digest again

4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration.

Bow and Prostrate to who? Allah SWT. Not to a statue and not some paint markings on the face. As RA786 correctly stated, prostrating to Allah SWT is not the same as prostrating to some idol! The above ayat is defining Muslims who prostrate to Allah SWT and not Hindus or Buddhists who prostrate to anything and everything.

Additional to this, according to your logic, Muslims have now also borrowed 'dress codes' from the Hindu faith as well. Like I said before, the stories and nonsense that you guys come up with belong in Hollywood. You guys are seriously in the wrong profession. Scriptwriting is where you need to be. Maybe they can back you up and turn your fantasies into a blockbuster.

Furthermore, you also claim that the prostration should be on the chin. Why don't you just say prostration should be on the left ear as well, followed by the right ear, then finish off with a head stand with legs straight, feet together and toes pointing perfectly in the air, which will in turn get you a perfect score of 10!

According to you dudes

Prayer is wrong
Fasting is wrong
Zakat is wrong
Pilgrimage is wrong

Not content with this, dress code is wrong, appearances are wrong, walking is wrong, talking is wrong, eating is wrong, washing is wrong, education is wrong, conducting business is wrong, marriage is wrong, having children is wrong and finally to top it all off, living and breathing is wrong. The only thing I await for from the likes of you, is statements that when Muslims die, their death is wrong because it has been corrupted using pagan rituals therefore they die the wrong way.

You guys have well and truly lost the plot.

Peace

[ths]

Salaam,

Firstly, thank you zulu for the kind words.

Now, onto the arguments.

Re 1)

a) Adding "FACT" to statements you've just made doesn't make them any more factual, just to let you know.
Also, I think you are agreeing with me here, so I don't know why you're adding the obnoxious "FACT" to it.

b) You're point #1 does not correspond with what I was talking about in my point #1. I was talking about no one making any proper proposals for translation and exegesis of "kharruu lil2adhqaani sujjadan", and you are talking about khrr, the verb that I address later.

c) Most of the verses in the Quran mentioning khrr are CLEARLY physical. FACT.
You mention 1 verse (fall on them deaf and blind) to wipe away the physical meaning from all the other verses.
It is more logical to apply the meaning of the majority of the other verses to this 1 verse.
See this verse for example

1626 Those that were before them contrived; then God came upon their building from the foundations, and the roof fell down on them from over them, and the chastisement came upon them from whence they were not aware.

The roof FELL on them. We know this because the verse mentions the word "building", and "roof".

So let us stop bickering about this, and agree that the Quran without a doubt applies a physical meaning to khrr.

Re 2)

a) dhaqn has multiple meanings in Arabic. It can mean face, or beard, as well as chin. In fact In Egypt today dhaqn is used to mean beard. (pronounced da2n in Egypt)

And Lane gives lots of meanings to dhaqn, as you said, depending on the context, including the back of the neck, throat, windpipe, and collar-bone, amongst others.

b)
Lane lists a variety of meanings which is fine, but he interestingly states dh-q-n means "chin" then removes this meaning and inserts ground instead when it comes to a tree.

Uhh?where does he do that?
Lane does NOT substitute ground for dhaqn when it comes to a tree.
You are utterly oversimplifying the phraseology he is trying to express.

Lane uses "kharruu lilidhqaani" to mean to fall completely/ to fall utterly/ to fall with surprising ease/ to fall with surprising submission.
He does not explicitly state this, but that's because it is obvious from his definitions. This is from Lane's Lexicon

You say also, kharruu li2adhqaanihim and hence,] 3asafat ree7u fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2adhqaani
(A in art. Kharra and habbat alree7u fakabbat alshajara 3alaa adhqaanihaa and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it.

You see above that Lane translates kharruu li2adhqaanihim similarly for all 3 cases people, trees, and stones.
The people fall to the ground
The trees fall to the ground
The stone is overturned

The point here is not to translate each word to create a meaning for 'dhaqn' in each case.
Instead you have to take it as a saying, or phrase the people dropped to the ground absolutely, the trees crashed to the ground, and the stone flipped as the torrent hit it.
Dhaqn is a linguistic way of adding stress to the action of falling. To emphasise that it wasn't just any old fall, but a mighty fall.

So if you want to talk to me about logic, then that is plainly logical. Much more so than claiming it is an idiomatic expression.
It is the equivalent of the English saying Wait on them hand and foot.
It doesn't mean I'm waiting on my limbs for someone. It simply adds stress to the expression I'm waiting.

c) Ok so on to your main point.

This is a good argument. But you're twisting the hierarchy of the arguments to suit a hypothesis you've already accepted.

Re 1)
There is no clear example of anyone doing this physically in AQ when hearing God's words.

This point doesn't really make sense, since you take sujood to be something that isn't physical. So how can you then state that there is no example of anyone doing it physically?

kharruu lil2adhqaani sujjadan is only used twice in the Quran, And one of the times it is used, is to show that people should do it when hearing God's words. (17107)

And there are a few verses saying that people should do sujood when hearing God's words
8421 And when the Qur'an is read to them, they fall not prostrate,
1958 When the signs of the All-merciful were recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping. (Kharruu sujjadan)
3215 Only those believe in Our signs who, when they are reminded of them, fall down prostrate and proclaim the praise of their Lord (kharruu sujjadan)

An interesting point to note is that in all the times sujjadan appears in the Quran, it appears with kharruu only when mentioning sujood upon hearing the Quran, and when Josephs family kharruu sujjadan to him.
I was ready to change my opinion entirely, but then I realized 8421 has sujood upon hearing the Quran - without kharruu.

So Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer, as well as rukoo3 once or twice, and when God commands it.
According to 8421 it is also done when hearing the Quran.
If it wasn't for 8421, kharruu sujjadan would have an alternate meaning separate from prayer.

So
kharruu sujjadan when hearing Quran
do sujood when hearing Quran
kharruu sujjadan was done to Joseph

Re 2)

Not really?as with everything else, common sense applies.

This is a straw man fallacy. The Quran never says "WHENEVER you hear the Quran, do sujood"
It says, "When you hear the Quran, do sujood"
If we apply common sense, we can say that do sujood when in the mosque or in your home
but not when your driving your car and you hear quran on the radio
or when you're in a store and the clerk is listening to the quran.

Also,
1958 says, "when the signs of the all-merciful are recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping"
By your logic, we would have to weep every time we hear the quran - obviously not, because common sense applies.

Or are we now going to find a mental inference for weeping as well?

Re 3)

This is a non-sequitur. You are working on a false premise.

4102 says, "and if they have prostrated, let them be behind you" - more literal
or
"when they finish their prostrations, let them go to your rear" - more aligned with the meaning

You can't tell from that sentence whether it means 1 prostration or many. "when they have prostrated" can mean several prostrations even in English.

So that is a very weak premise to be working on.

Furthermore, have you ever heard of 'sajdat telawa' and 'sajdat shukr'?
I don't know where these habits got their origins from, but when someone prostrates when hearing the Quran it is called a Sajdat Telawa. It is a different type of sajda from the sajda done during prayer, as is the Sajdat Shukr.

Thus, we can safely prove

Really?
I think points 2 and 3 are pretty poor.

Re 3)

No, I didn't set about proving khrr means physical fall. I set about proving that ALL mentions of khrr, including kharruu lilidhqaan mean to fall physically - based on the obvious meaning of the majority of the verses. I was gathering all the information together to have a better look at it.

You created a strawman logical fallacy, yet use terms such as "illogicality".

a) It is not a strawman fallacy because I wasn't directing it at your argument, I was doing it for my own and everyone else's benefit. You should recheck your understanding of strawman fallacies. Note that up till now I've been trying to mention everyone's arguments, in order of which I think are best, I wasn't specifically targeting your arguments. I've been reading the entire threads of the links you've posted, not just the individual posts. This is my own investigation where I'm trying to find the truth.

b) "illogicality" is a real word. Check your dictionary.

Not to mention you provided subjective and effectively useless % weightings.

Hahaha that's an interesting comment coming from you considering the inspiration for the probabilities came from your own article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/DGE_science_koran_quran.htm

1 in 1 billion? Well that's just accurate maths right there isn't it

Re 5)

This is a good point.
But God orders people to perform sujood on others, in 7161, 258,
and God orders Iblis to perform sujood to Adam and mentions it repeatedly in the Quran, which also causes the same contradiction you speak of, and has been a problem in exegesis for centuries. If one is supposed to do sujood to no one but God, then why would God ask Iblis to make sujood on Adam? And why would God ask people to enter a village whilst in sujood as per 7161 and 258?

That's another discussion I think.

As to your quoted point, I don't really understand it?which may be entirely due to the fact that I worked for 13 hours before coming home to type this up?

Conclusion

1. khrr means to physically fall. This is doubtless. You provide 1 verse "fall on them deaf and blind" and from that imply that khrr means 'to the maximum/significant'. It does mean that, but it means it along with physical falling.
   An explanation of that verse could be that God is admonishing people who simply follow the movements of sujood and have no khushoo3. Ie. They are falling to the ground deaf and blind - not thinking about God at all.

What I'm saying is that in nearly ALL the other 11 uses of khrr in the quran, it is without a doubt used in a physical sense
so it makes more sense to apply the meaning of all the other verses to that one,
than apply the meaning from that one to all the other verses.

2. Kharruu lilidhqaani is an Arabic saying denoting 'falling swiftly' or 'crashing down'. It is used to add stress to 'kharruu'
   No one has provided me with a logical explanation yet for ignoring this fact.

3. 4829 says "thou wilt SEE them bowing and prostrating"
   How exactly are we supposed to see each other bowing and prostrating is making sujood is a mental thing only?

4. Sujjadan is used alongside plenty of words, such as qaa2iman, rukka3an, bakiyyan...
   Isn't it logical to assume that since all the other words are physical, the we should take sujood's more apparent meaning?
   Don't you think it is illogical that all these other physical aspects are now being turned into mental ones? So God knowingly used these words, despite meaning nothing physical? Why? Was he just messing with our heads?
   Obviously not.

@Ayman,

I don't think you read my response to kharruu lilidhqaan, so please check it out above and in previous posts

[Wilson]

Peace

What marks on the faces is the Quran talking about? Is this some sort of secret code that only the Illuminati can see or something? No. It is plain and clear.

The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground. This is evident all over the world. I have seen this from China, right across the Middle East, Europe, Africa, USA and Latin America. I guarantee you one thing. No mattter where you go in the world, you will see Muslims with marks on their faces (foreheads) due to physical sujood.

Most of those with physical marks on their foreheads through prostrating, show off with it. Many even push their heads harder to the floor while praying to make it more visible. And this is normal, because who cares about superficial looks? Yes, you got it right! They're the hypocrites. So is 4829 talking about the 'munafiqeen'?

Prostrating to a Statue of Buddah is Different from Prostrating to Allah.
Prostrating to a Statue of a Snake with wings is Different from prostrating to a black box called the Kaba or the Rock at Temple Mount Dome Rock.

To all those who believe in the traditional pilgrimage and don't believe they have anything in common with the men in the pictures. You have more in common with them than you know, if only you would care to open your eyes.

[zulu12]

Dear Abdelilah

Additional to what I said concerning the absolute rubbish that comes out of some people concerning their interpretation of the Quran and Muslims, you now also start interpretating their minds and motives regarding prostration. 'Many even push their heads harder to the floor while praying to make it more visible'. Buddy, it will be a lot easier to come clean and just say all Muslims should be removed from the face of the earth, rather than try to dissect the Quran with your warped interpretations and attacks on their Freedom of Choice.

So in your world, in order for any Muslim to have a mark on their forehead in relation to the ayat in question, they must push harder on the floor with their forehead, otherwise they cannot get the mark? So in reality, Allah SWT was wrong in revealing the ayat because no Muslim has a mark on their forehead due to prostration unless it is forced in order to relate to the ayat? Dude...................Please.

There is deviant and then there is you guys. I'm sure even a shrink would be hard pressed to figure out what you guys are thinking, saying and what your REAL motive is!

Peace

[RA786]

Peace

Most of those with physical marks on their foreheads through prostrating, show off with it. Many even push their heads harder to the floor while praying to make it more visible. And this is normal, because who cares about superficial looks? Yes, you got it right! They're the hypocrites. So is 4829 talking about the 'munafiqeen'?

To all those who believe in the traditional pilgrimage and don't believe they have anything in common with the men in the pictures. You have more in common with them than you know, if only you would care to open your eyes.

Your right, and also to be more correct, Anyone who memorizes the Quran or Recites it in a beautiful tone of voice is therefore a hypcrate too. Because they are Superficial egotistical creatures who wish to Show off their Memorizing and Singing talents. Therefore lets not Be like those who recite ONLY to be HEARD of Men.

Also, There is ALOT in common with Traditionalists and hindu/buddhists, yet...there are differences.

You see, when a Hindu does Pilgrimage and a Ritual He may say "Oh Shiva and Genesh, O please give me _____ and Help me to ______"

and Im sure there are those who say "Oh satan....please ________"

or those who pray to buddah and place an Apple on a Platter in front of his statue.

However, you are still looking at this with an Ignorant Eye.

A Muslim who does Hajj does NOT say "oh Lord Kabaah, I pray to you, I submit to you oh Kaba!"
a Muslim also doesnt say "Oh Black Stone, Summon me to the highest ranks and forgive me!".

so there is alot of differences...

What you will see at Hajj is a Tradtional-Quranist who may do Hajj (NOT KISS THE BLACK STONE" but will say instead "LA illaha Illalah Wadahula Shareekalah!" and repeat it 7 times.

(translation I bear witness there is no god but Allah, and Allah has no Partners."

So "REALLY" How Pegan is that? How Hypocritically polythestic satanistic is that?

I am sorry brother, but I dont consiter that Pegan.

Circling around the Kaba 7 times and prostrating towards it may be (incorrectly attributed to Islam)
But it certanly is not Pegan...since you are ONLY saying Laillaha illala wadahulashareekalah.
SO how satanic can it really be? ^

[Wakas]

peace ths,

Before I begin, from a previous post

I read in the other thread where kharra was briefly mentioned a counter argument (I think it was yours but aren't sure anymore), that kharroo indicates falling, so sujood becomes redundant as a physical maneuver. I think that view is completely wrong. There are plenty of ways to fall, and sujood is a way to define how they fell, to show that they didn't simply fall down crying, but they fell down crying, and in prostration.

You misread. It is "khrr" is redundant because one cannot prostrate without falling first. I guess your only recourse is to say we are meant to do an abrupt or violent fall when we prostrate. ;D

no one making any proper proposals for translation and exegesis of "kharruu lil2adhqaani sujjadan"

It seems you cannot read properly. See Mustansir Mir. If "fall to the chin" is an idiomatic expression, then it would be "fall to the chin acknowledging/recognising" (i.e. acknowledge completely / to the utmost). Simple.

You mention 1 verse (fall on them deaf and blind) to wipe away the physical meaning from all the other verses.

No, again you misread. I said (see bold) "khrr" can mean "to fall completely" i.e. maximum/significant, do something to the utmost, and is used this way in AQ. FACT, e.g. see the verse "fall on them (signs) deaf and blind".

So let us stop bickering about this, and agree that the Quran without a doubt applies a physical meaning to khrr.

Did I say otherwise? Again, you cannot read properly.

Lane lists a variety of meanings which is fine, but he interestingly states dh-q-n means "chin" then removes this meaning and inserts ground instead when it comes to a tree.

Uhh?where does he do that?

You say also, kharruu li2adhqaanihim and hence,] 3asafat ree7u fakharrat al2ashjaaru lil2adhqaani

It seems you cannot read properly. dhqn means chin primarily, and also in AQ. FACT.
See bold above, Lane correctly states "chin" but inserts "ground" in his 1st rendering, then in his 2nd rendering since it applies to trees and everyone knows trees have no chin, he eliminates it and inserts "ground" instead. Lane is clearly giving us the idiomatic meaning, but what he doesn't explicitly state, which Mustansir Mir does is that the phrase "fall to the chin" is the literal rendering but it is an idiomatic expression and can be applied to trees if one understands the idiom.

Do trees have chins yes or no?

Amusingly you state

So if you want to talk to me about logic, then that is plainly logical. Much more so than claiming it is an idiomatic expression.

Then say

It is the equivalent of the English saying Wait on them hand and foot.

Which is of course an idiom! You contradict yourself. See http//idioms.thefreedictionary.com/wait+on+hand+and+foot

It is clear you are confused as to what an idiom is, as you state things like

Dhaqn is a linguistic way of adding stress to the action of falling. To emphasise that it wasn't just any old fall, but a mighty fall.

Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.
Amusingly, you imply the physical prostration we should do is not just any old fall but a mighty one. Perhaps you should consider promoting this translation and investing in a chain of kneepad shops in Muslim countries. ;D

This point doesn't really make sense, since you take sujood to be something that isn't physical.

Again, you cannot read properly. Allow me to quote myself, from this very thread

To summarise, from my studies, sjd is an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement", whatever form it takes (unless being used idiomatically of course). If we may think outside the box for a moment have you ever observed a tree swaying in the direction the wind takes it in? This is my conceptual understanding of sjd. I believe this is akin to the example given in AQ to do with shadows and sjd . Of course, God knows best.

For sake of argument, let's say it does not make sense, where is your proving that the prophets/messengers did as AQ said to do? i.e. when you hear God's signs "fall to the chin prostrating" / "physically prostrate" (or however you interpret it).
You cannot provide any evidence because there is none. Simple.

So Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer, as well as rukoo3 once or twice, and when God commands it.

Really? News to me. Perhaps another one of your % weightings will work well here?

Not really?as with everything else, common sense applies.

This is a straw man fallacy. The Quran never says "WHENEVER you hear the Quran, do sujood"
It says, "When you hear the Quran, do sujood"
If we apply common sense, we can say that do sujood when in the mosque or in your home
but not when your driving your car and you hear quran on the radio
or when you're in a store and the clerk is listening to the quran.

Ahh, so we use our common sense to decide when we should apply it or not... so can we also apply that to other places where it says "And when you..."?

Also,
1958 says, "when the signs of the all-merciful are recited to them, they fell down prostrate, weeping"
By your logic, we would have to weep every time we hear the quran - obviously not, because common sense applies.

Again, you cannot read properly. 1958 is addressing a specific group of people who were no doubt highly responsive to God's message. Interestingly, if we use your "common sense" approach, those addressed in 1958 could pick and choose when to fall SJD and BKY... doesn't sound as impressive does it.

You can't tell from that sentence whether it means 1 prostration or many. "when they have prostrated" can mean several prostrations even in English.

4102 says "so/then when you have SJD", and for sake of argument let's say it can mean one or several, in your view, people can get up and walk off after one, no coherence whatsoever, and in wartime significant disarray, invalidating the very point of the verse. No thanks, that's not the logical/word precision par excellence of AQ that I'm used to.
Previously you implied the use of "common sense", thus perhaps you should ponder upon if we are meant to physically prostrate upon hearing God's Words in a mosque/home, then one would constantly be in this position in traditional prayer. What is your haphazard criteria? Oh, that's right "common sense", not AQ's sense.

It is not a strawman fallacy because I wasn't directing it at your argument.

Your post was addressed to me, hence my inference you were directing this part to me. Perhaps you should have been clearer.

Hahaha that's an interesting comment coming from you considering the inspiration for the probabilities came from your own article http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/DGE_science_koran_quran.htm

1 in 1 billion? Well that's just accurate maths right there isn't it

I'm glad I can inspire you, however it seems you averaged out the %, not calculated a final probability value. "1 in 1 billion" is not accurate or inaccurate, it depends entirely upon what the individual determines as valid/reasonable for them, thus true for them not others, as stated in the article. Your % weightings are irrelevant for everyone else, or at least, to me they are.

But God orders people to perform sujood on others, in 7161, 258,
and God orders Iblis to perform sujood to Adam and mentions it repeatedly in the Quran, which also causes the same contradiction you speak of, and has been a problem in exegesis for centuries. If one is supposed to do sujood to no one but God, then why would God ask Iblis to make sujood on Adam? And why would God ask people to enter a village whilst in sujood as per 7161 and 258?

This is probably the best example of your inability to read and bias. 7161 and 258 are nothing at all to do with "perform sujood on others". The very fact you say this shows your significant bias, it simply says "enter the gate doing/in SJD". As everyone can plainly see, not only is it not about performing SJD on others it completely disproves SJD=physical prostration, as no one can enter a gate prostrating unless scraping their head against the ground as they do so. Interestingly this is an example of movement, i.e. "enter the gate" for a person, yet SJD cannot mean physical prostration. Whereas my rendition fits like a glove "enter the gate acknowledging/recognising" or "enter the gate in acknowledgement/recognition".

Once again, you show your bias when you state

and God orders Iblis to perform sujood to Adam and mentions it repeatedly in the Quran, which also causes the same contradiction you speak of, and has been a problem in exegesis for centuries. If one is supposed to do sujood to no one but God, then why would God ask Iblis to make sujood on Adam?

There is a difference between requesting iblis (a particular controlling force that is arrogant/rejecting, has a superiority complex, ~ego) to perform an "actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement" to adam/mankind, and prostrating to him. In fact, I strongly recommend re-reading this parable.

As to your quoted point, I don't really understand it?which may be entirely due to the fact that I worked for 13 hours before coming home to type this up?

Yes, that does explain a lot. I recommend re-reading.

3. 4829 says "thou wilt SEE them bowing and prostrating"

I recommend reading the context, and applying logic and cross-referencing.

Initially, I intended not to reply, but you seem genuine in your approach, but it is very obvious you misread A LOT, and apply haphazard reasoning, which of course doesn't help when trying to understand something. Let me be clear for all to see

To summarise, from my studies, sjd is an actionable representation of "hearing and obeying" or "giving recognition/acknowledgement", whatever form it takes (unless being used idiomatically of course). If we may think outside the box for a moment have you ever observed a tree swaying in the direction the wind takes it in? This is my conceptual understanding of sjd. I believe this is akin to the example given in AQ to do with shadows and sjd . Of course, God knows best.

To sum it up the "fall to the chin" in sjd argument has been smashed completely, and the sjd=physical prostration argument has been critically damaged to the point where it cannot be considered likely and only a theoretical possibility in some occurrences. Similar to how any Arabic word in AQ can mean any of its Classical Arabic meanings in some occurrences, theoretically. In other words, no evidenced argument can be made other than this.

If you disagree feel free to take weeks, even months to compile the strongest and most comprehensive argument you possibly can for SJD meaning physical prostration from AQ, explaining away all these points etc and post the article.

Until then, each to their own.

[ths]

Hahaha Wakas you really are a master of inferring what you want, and then being arrogant about it.

You have zero courtesy, and have made this debate into an unpleasurable one through the use of ad hominems, one after the other.

You repeatedly accuse me of not knowing how to read properly. Cut it out. It's arrogant, and makes you look like an infant in a schoolyard.

But getting emotionally antagonized and thus verbally aggressive are typical signs of a weak mind - and poor debating skills.

I suggest you mature a little bit, and keep to the facts, ad hominems are weakening your arguments, not mine.

Also, I took my time to respond because I have a life and plenty of work, and cannot therefore be sitting in front of the internet all day waiting for your responses. Not wealthy in the personal life are we wakas?

But thanks for your concern, you've clearly been watching the clock waiting for my response

First of all,

Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.

I AM an Arabic speaker. Are you? What is YOUR mother tongue?
Also, I showed that response to a friend, also fluent in Arabic, and 100% Arab, simply because his Arabic is better than mine.

There are two Arabic speakers for you, so please share with us your background, since you seem to be obsessed with it.

Secondly,

I admit I wasn't using idiomatic correctly. I was trying to express that kharruu lil2adhqaani is not entirely idiomatic if one still falls to the ground, which isn't correct, as an idiomatic expression is any statement where the meaning cannot be inferred from the literal order of words. So yes, my mistake, it IS an idiomatic expression. And that does not change the meanings I have described.

You misread. It is "khrr" is redundant because one cannot prostrate without falling first. I guess your only recourse is to say we are meant to do an abrupt or violent fall when we prostrate.

God says that we should do sujood when we are reminded of the Quran (8421)
He also says that we should kharruu sujjadan when we are reminded of the Quran.

I punch the man in the face.
I swung my body, punching the man in the face.

Simple Wakas, try to keep up.

If "fall to the chin" is an idiomatic expression, then it would be "fall to the chin acknowledging/recognizing" (i.e. acknowledge completely / to the utmost). Simple.

No.
YOU are making it mean "fall to the chin". It does not have to mean "fall to the chin acknowledging" - it may mean "fall down acknowledging"

We are provided with no evidence other than your stubborn insistence that chin MUST be taken literally in every case.

Lane correctly states "chin" but inserts "ground" in his 1st rendering, then in his 2nd rendering since it applies to trees and everyone knows trees have no chin, he eliminates it and inserts "ground" instead.

You accuse me of not being able to read, and then UTTERLY omit the most important part of Lane's definition (that I mentioned 3 times now). But that isn't surprising when you really want it to mean something.

Lane render dhaqn as chin.
Lane then renders dhaqn as ground in his 2nd rendering. So far so good.
Then you either purposely omit, or fail to read

"and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."

So in his 3rd rendering, he shows us that the word "chin" is not important in this idiomatic phrase.

Do trees have chins yes or no?

Hahaha, of course they don't' have chins, which supports my answer 100%
It tells us that the Arabic phrase "kharruu li2adhqaanihim" does not translate to"fall to the chin" in English. It translates to "they came crashing down". You are utterly lacking in language skills if you cannot comprehend this fact.

Lane is clearly giving us the idiomatic meaning, but what he doesn't explicitly state, which Mustansir Mir does is that the phrase "fall to the chin" is the literal rendering but it is an idiomatic expression and can be applied to trees if one understands the idiom.

In your haste to prove yourself correct, you've forgotten to make sense.

You are trying to disagree and agree with me at the same time.
The phrase "fall to the chin" can be applied to trees, it can also be applied to stones, human beings, buildings, and any other object that falls, or falls over.

You said it yourself, TREES HAVE NO CHINS, then why do you insist on translating chin differently each time?

And why do you ignore his 3rd rendering each time?
Is it because he DOESN'T TRANSLATE CHIN?

Stop running around, and address this point, which I've raised 3 times now.

Please show the above to any Arabic speaker, let us know what they say.

Well firstly, I'll ignore your weak sarcasm.

Secondly, I have a distant friend who is an expert in Arabic linguistics.
She used to run this blog http//arabicgems.wordpress.com/
She has a BA and an MA in Arabic linguistics, specializing in etymology
I've emailed her about this, and hopefully she can provide us with a response soon.

For sake of argument, let's say it does not make sense, where is your proving that the prophets/messengers did as AQ said to do? i.e. when you hear God's signs "fall to the chin prostrating" / "physically prostrate" (or however you interpret it).
You cannot provide any evidence because there is none. Simple.

You seem to have a problem understanding simple things, once you've stubbornly set your mind on something.
Let me ask you a question instead, does every commandment in the Quran need an example from an actual person?
Because God tells us to physically prostrate upon hearing His words in 8421, 1958, and 3215

8421 says to make sujood
1958 says kharruu sujjadan. Which means they 'fell whilst making sujood'
3215 also says kharruu sujjadan

This means that there are 2 references in the Quran where people physically fall at hearing the Quran.

Simple.

Really? News to me. Perhaps another one of your % weightings will work well here?

If I had made it 'probability of physical prostration = 1 to 73 million' would that have made you happy? You seem fond of such ridiculous 'maths' in your own articles.

Ahh, so we use our common sense to decide when we should apply it or not

Are you saying we should NOT use common sense when applying things from the Quran?
Because that's a really original position!
Let's throw away common sense altogether!

Again, you cannot read properly. 1958 is addressing a specific group of people who were no doubt highly responsive to God's message.
Interestingly, if we use your "common sense" approach, those addressed in 1958 could pick and choose when to fall SJD and BKY... doesn't sound as impressive does it.

You contradict yourself again.
You said that kharruu sujjadan cannot mean physical prostration because we have no examples to emulate from prophets/messengers.

So there is the example for you of prophets and messengers crying when hearing God's words.

So by your logic we can say that we should ALWAYS cry when hearing God's words. Why make the excuse that they were just "highly responsive" people? You said yourself "pick and choose when to fall sjd and bky"

If they can't use common sense to choose when to cry, then apparently they must cry each time they hear the Quran.

This means we have an example of Prophets/messengers using common sense, and thus it is ok for us to do as well.

"1 in 1 billion" is not accurate or inaccurate, it depends entirely upon what the individual determines as valid/reasonable for them, thus true for them not others, as stated in the article.

Oh it's not accurate NOR inaccurate is it?

Don't dance around like a headless chicken, my % weightings are EXACTLY the same thing as your probabilities. Your article is 'why I believe in God', mine was "why kharruu means to fall"
But you are incapable of not being biased, so therefore your ridiculous "1 in 1 billion" and "1 in ten thousand billion billion" are somehow validated, whilst mine are useless.

Please show your "1 in ten thousand billion billion" to anyone else on this forum to see if it's worth a damn.

What's the probability that you'll do it? (In what I individually determine to be valid of course) is 1 in 77 billion trillion!

This is probably the best example of your inability to read and bias. 7161 and 258 are nothing at all to do with "perform sujood on others".

I admire the way you make an argument, and then conveniently stop mentioning it again once it's been explained.
You said before that people could not have made sujood to Joseph because of verses where God says no one should do sujood to anyone but him.

I raised these verses to show that God instructed the angels to do sujood on Adam, and these people to do sujood whilst entering the village to show you that the contradiction already exists.
Your response?
To completely ignore these verses, and instead to argue a moot point.

No one ever stated that words cannot have different meanings depending on context - that is only your obsession. Is that what you're arguing? That words cannot hold multiple meanings in the Quran depending on context?

Whereas my rendition fits like a glove

When you make something vague enough, it will fit into anything.
In fact, according to your description, we are making sujood right now. I am "hearing and obeying' right now, and I'm also "acknowledging" right now as we speak.

In fact I was also "acknowledging a few minutes ago when I used the bathroom. I can acknowledge all day!

Your definition is meaningless Wakas, it's time you realised it.

To summarize

I think that your greatest weakness Wakas is a lack of knowledge of Arabic, which results in an 'any word can mean anything if i want it to' attitude.

You make one inference, and then you're forced into twisting things into meaning what you want them to, so as not to trouble your utopian vision of the Quran.

You provide absolutely ZERO logical argument against the phrase kharruu lil2adhqaani, but instead defer your opinion each time to an appeal to authority "mustansir mir says it"

[Wakas]

peace ths,

If you know Arabic, this just got interesting. For the record, I have almost zero knowledge of Arabic. Since 'the proof is in the tasting of the pudding', as the idiom goes, we will see if this is important or not.

Before I begin, just saying I use "ad hominens" doesn't prove I actually used them. Ideally, in future, please clarify what type and where I did so, so I can improve my skills in this area. I like to use this site for example.

Now, let me clarify and simplify

You admit it is an idiom on one hand, yet seemingly imply it can be taken literally sometimes. Can you clarify exactly what your position is on this?

According to you, what is the meaning of dhaqn in AQ and the primary meaning in Classical Arabic dictionaries? Does it ever mean "ground"?

"and, of a stone, kabbahu-l-sailu lidhaqnihi The torrent overturned it."

Can you provide a literal translation, so we can see if Lane is giving us the meaning of the phrase (because he understands the idiom).

So in his 3rd rendering, he shows us that the word "chin" is not important in this idiomatic phrase.

The word "chin" is not relevant when explaining the final meaning perhaps (as Lane does), but it is crucial in order to understand meaning, i.e. knowing this phrase is an idiomatic expression in the first place allows one to obtain the final or intended meaning. You seem to be confusing the two or how one leads to the other. Ask your expert Arabic linguist this, let us know what they say.

It tells us that the Arabic phrase "kharruu li2adhqaanihim" does not translate to"fall to the chin" in English. It translates to "they came crashing down"

Do you take it as such when it applies to humans, i.e. do they also "come crashing down". Please clarify this point exactly.

You said it yourself, TREES HAVE NO CHINS, then why do you insist on translating chin differently each time?

I do not translate it differently each time, I translate it exactly the same all the time. Again, you seem to be confusing the literal rendering of the phrase with its meaning. Once one understands the idiom, they can give the intended meaning.

This means that there are 2 references in the Quran where people physically fall at hearing the Quran.

Classic circular argument. Verse XYZ means ABC, that shows there are examples of ABC in XYZ.

Tell us what your expert in Arabic linguistics says about the construction of 1958 etc in which khrr is a verb in the perfect tense and sjd is a noun. I'd be interested to know the implications of the grammar.

Really? News to me. Perhaps another one of your % weightings will work well here?

Rather than dodging the question, please answer it so we can see if your claim of "Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer" is correct or not.

So by your logic we can say that we should ALWAYS cry when hearing God's words. Why make the excuse that they were just "highly responsive" people?

No excuse whatsoever, the verse you refer to is addressed to a specific group of people, whilst the others referenced are not. If a person knows Arabic, they should spot this easy.

But you are incapable of not being biased, so therefore your ridiculous "1 in 1 billion" and "1 in ten thousand billion billion" are somehow validated, whilst mine are useless.

Yes, yours are useless for others. The probabilities you refer to of mine are valid for me only, as I clearly state in the article. I say they are subjective thus choose your own thus they will be valid for you. Thus, when you post your % weightings for others, I am simply saying they may be relevant for you, but irrelevant for others. You dont seem to understand this simple point.

Please show your "1 in ten thousand billion billion" to anyone else on this forum to see if it's worth a damn.

What's the probability that you'll do it? (In what I individually determine to be valid of course) is 1 in 77 billion trillion!

http//mypercept.co.uk/articles/Does_God_Exist_home.htm
It has been praised several times in this forum, and also in email feedback, including university professors. Not too shabby for my first article written at 16. Here are some examples
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9598275.msg200122#msg200122
http//free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11684.msg80809#msg80809

I agree that the only evidence you have of sjd to others is of angels/iblis to/for adam/mankind, although they are not people doing the sjd. I dont have a major problem with that, as not only is this a parable it was prior to this whole test on earth started. I completely reject your claim of sjd to others with "enter the gate in sjd", as it could easily refer to disposition. Ask your expert if it means "to others".

No one ever stated that words cannot have different meanings depending on context - that is only your obsession. Is that what you're arguing? That words cannot hold multiple meanings in the Quran depending on context?

Thanks for the admission. An example of person movement in sjd and it does not mean physical prostration. Nice to know we agree on something.

In fact, according to your description, we are making sujood right now. I am "hearing and obeying' right now, and I'm also "acknowledging" right now as we speak.

No, you would only be "hearing" not "obeying", and you would not be acknowledging because you disagree, thus at most would be acknowledging part (as in you hear what I'm saying) but reject another part (i.e. do not follow through and obey). Simple.

Also ask your expert when it says "and when you ABC do XYZ..." can it mean it is optional. Thanks.

Please take your time to respond and read very carefully.

[Wakas]

I forgot to say, after having overcome a 1 in 77 billion trillion probability, I'm feeling lucky, should I buy a lottery ticket?

;D

[ths]

Salaam,

Wakas, we can take from your lack of respect that you're an emotionally stunted individual. For not only do you feel it necessary to belittle me, but the insecurity you feel inside has driven you to disrespect the friend that I mentioned above.

My purpose in discussing this topic in this forum began as a personal quest to investigate and find the truth in a matter - for myself, and for the benefit of others searching for the same answers.
You failed to understand this, and turned the discussion into a personal one by making personal attacks.

I pointed this out to you above, and you continue to lay on the sarcasm and the disrespect of others.
You have not respected my spiritual quest as an individual, nor my efforts in this forum to understand an important concept. This goes against the teachings of the Quran, as you probably know, yet voluntarily continue to do it. It also shuns others from continuing in the discussion, out of fear of your sarcastic side-commentary.
Therefore your attitude has shunned people from finding the truth. So congratulations for that.

I'm more than happy to discuss this and all issues with anybody in this forum, but I'll tell you here and now, that if you weren't taught to speak with respect in your childhood, then you'll learn it now for I'll respond this time, and if you continue with your condescending tone it'll be my last. If you can speak and respond as an adult, then I'm more than happy to continue discussing with you.

Wakas, your attitude was wrong, you know it, I know it, and everyone reading this thread knows it. It's preserved in front of us. I expected MUCH more from a senior member on this forum. So be an adult and acknowledge your mistake and rectify it.

Now, onto the discussion,

You admit it is an idiom on one hand, yet seemingly imply it can be taken literally sometimes. Can you clarify exactly what your position is on this?

According to you, what is the meaning of dhaqn in AQ and the primary meaning in Classical Arabic dictionaries? Does it ever mean "ground"?

1.Absolutely not, it never means ground.
2. Dhaqn is used in the Quran to mean 'chin'.
3. I can't believe you still don't understand what I'm trying to say. My argument is absolutely clear. So either you are intentionally not understanding, or you have no language skills to speak of.

The word "chin" is not relevant when explaining the final meaning perhaps (as Lane does), but it is crucial in order to understand meaning, i.e. knowing this phrase is an idiomatic expression in the first place allows one to obtain the final or intended meaning. You seem to be confusing the two or how one leads to the other.

Please explain this gibberish.
So there is a final meaning, and an intermediate meaning?

I'm going to try to make my argument as clear as possible now

Dhaqn is chin
Kharruu liladhqaan is something totally different

You're progression is stopped, it seems, because of the presence of the word 'dhaqn'.

From Lane's Lexicon, we can infer that the phrase "kharruu lil2adhqaan" can be used to denote anything falling over surprisingly/swiftly/eagerly/completely

It is a poetic device, used like this

The mighty trees, that looked strong and sturdy, fell over eagerly at the strength of the wind

The heavy rock, that looked dense and immobile, keeled over in an instant at the strength of the torrent.

The fact that there exists the word 'chin' does not mean anything.

Here are some examples

1. .

Translation I bought it for dirt cheap

Meaning I bought something for a surprisingly low price.

The word 'dirt' means nothing in this sentence. It is not translated on its own. The PHRASE is translated.

Translation It is a slip of the tongue

Meaning It was a verbal mistake

The word 'tongue' is not translated directly to mean "a tongue slipped", because it's impossible for a tongue to slip.

Translation On my head

Meaning It's my pleasure

This is a common phrase in Arabic. When you're doing something for someone and they're thanking you, you commonly say "3ala raasi"

The word 'head' has no meaning in the phrase, and should not be taken literally. There is nothing on the head.

Translation Two healths
Meaning To be honest I have no idea hahah?all I know is that it's said after one finishes eating. It's a sort of blessing

Do you see where I'm going now?

Lane translated kharruu lil2adhqaan because that's how you read it in english "they fell to the chins"

I hope my argument is finally clear on this
Arabic is full of such expressions

Do you take it as such when it applies to humans, i.e. do they also "come crashing down". Please clarify this point exactly.

Yes. They fall to the ground eagerly. They fall swiftly as they weep.

Similar to the Arabic method of repetition to convey stress.

Translation He hit him a hit
Meaning He hit him especially hard

This is also used all over the Quran

Classic circular argument. Verse XYZ means ABC, that shows there are examples of ABC in XYZ.

This is EXACTLY what you are doing.

You are saying that XYZ does not mean ABC, and that shows there are no examples of ABC in XYZ.

please answer it so we can see if your claim of "Sujood is overwhelmingly used in concordance with prayer" is correct or not.

What are you talking about?
I took 'prayer' to mean dhikr, du3a2, salah, and worship in general?the English word prayer encompasses those things.

No excuse whatsoever, the verse you refer to is addressed to a specific group of people, whilst the others referenced are not. If a person knows Arabic, they should spot this easy.

What are you talking about?
The verse I quoted is not addressing anybody. It is making an example of previous messengers and prophets.
Read it again. I quote verse 1958

Yes, yours are useless for others. The probabilities you refer to of mine are valid for me only, as I clearly state in the article.

I thought it was obvious that these were my own personal weightings.
That's why I even added
"I shall try to be as unbiased as possible, giving equal weight to each possibility."

It is YOU who turned it into a ballyhoo as if I'd intended it to be a formulaic mathematical dissertation.
It was my own unbiased opinion, and that was obvious to everyone but you.

Not too shabby for my first article written at 16.

I TRULY hope this means that you're not 18 years old, because that would explain A LOT.

And that's all I have time for now.

In summary,

cut the preteen attitude and act like an adult so this can be a proper discussion for us, and for everyone reading it.

[ayman]

Peace RA786,

This is like comparing Apples to Oranges.
Prostrating to a Statue of Buddah is Different from Prostrating to Allah.
Prostrating to a Statue of a Snake with wings is Different from prostrating to a black box called the Kaba or the Rock at Temple Mount Dome Rock.
Just beauce a Pegan Sacrificial Mayan has a Mark on his Forehead...Doesnt mean that he is Equal to a Muslim who has a Mark on his Forehead.
I disagree with THS saying that ONLY muslims have the mark, because I think ANYONE who prostrates will develoupe one...
HOWEVER, I will admit...I have NEVER EVER seen a non-muslim with a Prostration mark.
Catholics are known for doing hand to head (father,son,holy spirit) and Muslims are Known for Prostration marks.

So you admit that the physical "mark" on the head is irrelevant to whether one is a "muslim" or even an average decent human being or not. Not only the extreme Hindus who prostrate to their idols frequently have those marks but also idiotic terrorists. Moreover, the mark is a kind of mild contact dermititis and depending on your skin type you may get it or not. Usually people with lighter skin will not get it. Are you really so blind as to think that the believers can only be of a certain skin type? So what does the physical "mark" have to do with piety or being from the believers? NOTHING.

Making a Sacrifice to Allah by sacrificing a Goat or Lamb and feeding the poor...... Is Different that sacraficing a goat's head to satan in a pegan Orgy Blood Sex ritual with a Cult.
Making a Pilgrimage to a Mosque is different then making a pilgrimage to a Satanic temple of Ritual.
Ayman is COMPLETELY missing the point and creating a fallacy.

If "Mike" is Prostrating on the ground or even towards the kaba(or temple Rock) and he is praying to Allah and his intention is Genuine because this is Honestly how he interpretes the verese and wishes to accomplish his goal of being Closer to Allah by performing a Physical Prostration while reciting Quran...
This in NO WAY makes him the same as a satanist prostrater. And Just beaucase The Satanist Prostrater and the Muslim have Makrs on their forehead doesnt mean they are the same. Thats UNFAIR of Ayman. very Unfair.

So you admit that the physical mark on the forehead is 100% irrelevant.

You also admit that the non-physical "intention" of Mike is what matters. So the primary aspect of "sujud", even according to you is non-physical.

*Where in the Quran does it say "Do Not Make ANY Physical Prostration to Allah while Reciting Quran and Asking for Guidence...ITS HARAAM!"
*Where in the Quran does it say "Do not wear White Sheets because Pegans do...Its HARAAAM!"
So now, we cant wear white sheets, and cant prostrate because we would be consittered Pegan?
(But doesnt pegan mean have false gods? how can we fit the actions of pegans if we have ALLAH as our God?) hmm

Listen RA786, you can prostrate towards a stone cube and walk around half naked in some white towels all you want, but don't lie and claim that you are doing it because the god told you so. It is indeed HARAAM to say lies about the god.

Where in the great reading does it say to make physical prostration to/towards a stone cube?
Where in the great reading does it say to wear some white sheets?

You cant keep using the old..."Pegans did it...so it must be bad!"
well pegans Drink Orange Juice, so now I feel to be a Better muslim...we need to stop drinking OJ!
Pegans also like to shave their heads....So now I feel we as Muslim must never cut our hair!
oppss Uh oh! Pegans Also believe to Never cut your hair! Oh no what do we do!?
Just because Pegans use Physical Prostration as their Means in Making Ritual Prayers, Doesnt Automatically Make ANY AND ALL physical prayers negitive and pegan.
They cant Coin and own the copy rights to physical Prostration. its not an All or nothing.

As I said, you can wear white sheets or walk naked or do whatever you want. But if you say that you are doing it because the god told you to do it then you better bring evidence from the great reading (which I know you can't). In my book, this makes you a liar against the god.

What makes the difference is the Words being said and the Thoughts that are being Manifested/Intention/meaning.
Thats what makes the difference between a Pegans prayer and a Muslims prayer.
Be Fair Ayman, and please dont go back to your "Pegans DID IT so it must be bad" argument all the time.

Once again, you admit that the important thing is not the physical but the non-physical, thereby contradicting yourself.

Peace,

Ayman

[ayman]

Peace Zulu,

Please read and digest again
4829 Muhammad is the apostle of Allah. and those who are with him are strong against Unbelievers, (but) compassionate amongst each other. Thou wilt see them bow and prostrate themselves (in prayer), seeking Grace from Allah and (His) Good Pleasure. On their faces are their marks, (being) the traces of their prostration.
Bow and Prostrate to who? Allah SWT. Not to a statue and not some paint markings on the face. As RA786 correctly stated, prostrating to Allah SWT is not the same as prostrating to some idol! The above ayat is defining Muslims who prostrate to Allah SWT and not Hindus or Buddhists who prostrate to anything and everything.

So you admit that "to who" is what matters and the physical marks don't matter since Hindus can equally have them, especially the extremist Hindus who spend all day prostrating to a statue. In other words, you are admitting that what you wrote here is 100% false nonsense

The only people I have seen with marks on their faces/foreheads are Muslims who have been physically prostrating and touching their foreheads on the ground.

Additional to this, according to your logic, Muslims have now also borrowed 'dress codes' from the Hindu faith as well. Like I said before, the stories and nonsense that you guys come up with belong in Hollywood. You guys are seriously in the wrong profession. Scriptwriting is where you need to be. Maybe they can back you up and turn your fantasies into a blockbuster.

As I told RA768, I don't care if you spin seven times around any idol half naked, just don't lie and say that they god told you to do so. If you are not a liar then tell us where did the god tell you to dress in white towels?

Furthermore, you also claim that the prostration should be on the chin. Why don't you just say prostration should be on the left ear as well, followed by the right ear, then finish off with a head stand with legs straight, feet together and toes pointing perfectly in the air, which will in turn get you a perfect score of 10!

Tell your hypocritical excuses to the god. He is the one who talked about the chins

Can you read Arabic? If not then ask THS, who knows Arabic, to underline the word "the chins" for you in the passage.

According to you dudes
Prayer is wrong
Fasting is wrong
Zakat is wrong
Pilgrimage is wrong
Not content with this, dress code is wrong, appearances are wrong, walking is wrong, talking is wrong, eating is wrong, washing is wrong, education is wrong, conducting business is wrong, marriage is wrong, having children is wrong and finally to top it all off, living and breathing is wrong. The only thing I await for from the likes of you, is statements that when Muslims die, their death is wrong because it has been corrupted using pagan rituals therefore they die the wrong way.
You guys have well and truly lost the plot.

As I said, no one cares if you mindlessly spin around some pagan stones wearing some white towels or if you have a fetish for kissing and fondling filthy stones that you face while praying. Go ahead and knock yourself out. The only thing is don't lie and claim that the god ordered you to do so.

Peace,

Ayman