i want to stop wearing the head-scarf/hijab, need support!
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Peace Raaajah
David-K
I just cannot understand this logic, it will really create KIos in the society, Allah has made a syetem and in his system he has assigned duties for different creations, and has issued some rules and princiapls, so according to your logic we should not obey the State, beacuse we have to obey Allah, we should not obey our father because we have to obey Allah...and so on, what is this? actually when you obey your father (othet than the commands mention in Quran) you are obeying Allah, and similarly obeying mother and Husband you are obeying Allah.You are right, we can obey those in authority (the state)
Quran 459
O you who believe, obey God and obey the messenger and those in authority among you. But if you dispute in any matter, then you shall refer it to God and His messenger if you believe in God and the Last Day. That is better and more suitable for knowing.However, if they dispute in any matter, the above verse tells us that we should refer it to God and his messenger, which means we should put the laws of God above the state. Therefore the laws of the Quran are above the state. Let me ask you a question. If the state says that you can only drive 80 kilometers on a road, iand someone is hurt (there is an emergency), would you break the rules of the state? Maybe. Why? Because it is more important to save a life than to follow the rules of the state. Or if the state you live in, is a state which breaks human rights, and tells you do support bad actions, then you have to disobey the state. Why? Because breaking human rights (treating people unjustly) is against the laws of the Quran.
I agree with you, parents can be obeyed
Quran 298
And We instructed man to be good to his parents. But if they strive to make you set up partners with Me, then do not obey them. To Me are all your destinies, and I will inform you of what you used to do.But if the parents of a girl and boy strives to set up partners with allah, by making the son and daughter doing actions that are against the quranic laws, laws, then the son and daughter should not obey their partners.
Raaajah, when I said the quran does not tell women to obey their husband, I meant it. The Quran does not say it, therefore a woman does not need to obey her husband. No, it will not create chaos in society. If a woman obeys Allah, then automatically she would be a nice wife to her husband. A man can not decide over a woman, and a woman can not decide over a man. Human beings have free will to do what they want. Off course a husband can say to a woman there are certain rules in the house, and the wife can say to her husband that there are certain rules in the house. For example, if the husband can say, his rule is that no one can smoke in the house. This is a reasonable rule. The wife can accept this rule. And the wife can tell her husband that her rule is that no one should read her diary. This is a reasonable rule. And the husband can accept this rule. As we can see, the rules of the husband and the wife are compatible with the Quran. But if the husband had a rule that was uncompatible with the laws of Quran, then his wife can break them. For instance, if the husband told her wife that she must were a scarf all the time, then she can disobey him. Because no verse in the Quran tells women to wear hijab. But the wife can off course accept his rule if she wants. But if she does not want to wear hijab, the husband can not force her to wear it. Even if hijab was compulsory(which it isn't), the husband still can't force her wife to wear it. Why? Because there is no compulsion in islam (See 2256). So if a husband tells her wife to follow a rule, and the rule is against the laws of the Quran, then the wife must not obey her husband. Why? Because God comes first. The laws of Allah are above the laws of human being. However, the husband can tell her that either she follows his rule, or he will divorce her. So the husband has a choice. He do not need to continue to stay in the relationship if he don't want to. But he can not decide what his wife should or should not do, he can not control her. He can ask her to follow a rule, and she can accept it. But he can never force her to follow anything. There is a difference between accepting different rules the husband has, and obeying the husband (following all his rules). There is a huge difference between accepting something, willingly, and obeying something, unwillingly.
David-K
Please just don't keep on putting words in my mouth..where did I said that women are not allowed to work. Half of my female family members are in Governemnt Jobs.You did not say that women are not allowed to work. And I did not say that you said it neither. I just mentioned it because I thought it was relevant to the things I said in my post )
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So Leyna what is your comments is this my system or Allah's system.
to make it easier for you; people here don?t BELIEVE in or AGREE with The-System-of-God AS UNDERSTOOD BY RAJAAAH or any Ghamidi.
I hope that helps. handshake
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David-K
You are right, we can obey those in authority (the state)
Then sorry to say brother your logic of not obeying Husband is flawed, The family is BASic unit of a society, the hierarchy moves up till state.
In a family there has to be a leader it can be man and it can be women, but Quran tells us due to diffferent reasons its Man, who has to lead the house.
The Qur?an has given two reasons for this choice. While explaining these reasons, Imam Amin Ahsan Islahi writes
First, men have been granted superiority over women. There are certain innate abilities and traits in men which are more pronounced in him and because of which he has been made the head of a family unit. For example, a man is much more gifted innately to protect and to defend himself and to earn livelihood and to take the initiative than a woman. It should be appreciated here that the superiority men have over women is not absolute it is only in certain spheres ? spheres which entitle men to become head of the family unit. There are certain other spheres in which women are more superior than men but they do not entitle them to become the head of family. For example, the extent of ability a woman has to take care of household affairs and the ability to look after children, a man does not have. That is why the superiority which is mentioned in the verse is alluded to in an implicit manner such that it can be concluded that both men and women are superior to one another in different spheres1; however, a man is superior to the woman as far as becoming the head of family is concerned.
Second, a husband bears financial responsibility for the wife. It is his obligation to earn and fulfill the needs of his wife and children.That is the System of Allah, however there are houses in which women have this role to play due to different reasons and circumsatnces and Allah doesnot for bid this, but in normal cases that is the system of Allah.
Regarding your saying about not to obey Father or Husaband on particular situation, I have already mentioned that in my post.
laws of Allah are above the laws of State, correct.. but then there is a system you have to follow that in normal circumstances, your example of emergency is not a normal position.
DavidI agree with you, parents can be obeyed
So if parents CAN be obeyed,? If state has to be obeyed,? Why not Husband? again family is basic unit of system.
Without obedience and adjustment, no system can work whether it be a state or any other institution. This is the natural requirement of any system. In the absence of these attitudes, no system can function and will ultimately disintegrate by giving way to indiscipline and anarchy. -
The Almighty has created some superior to the others as regards their mental, physical, economic and social status.
Similar is the case between a man and a woman. They have been created as counterparts such that one is by nature the active member and the other the passive. While the former trait needs domination, vigor and force the latter needs gentleness, subtlety and acquiescence. Viewed thus, each possesses relative superiority to the other.
First, men have been granted superiority over women.
There are certain other spheres in which women are more superior than men but they do not entitle them to become the head of family. For example, the extent of ability a woman has to take care of household affairs and the ability to look after children, a man does not have.
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Wakas
This is a problematic statement. Could be classed as "wrong" but if not "wrong", it is definitely misleading.
Here is AQ's position AFAIK, men have the default role as maintainer/supporter, and we can infer from AQ that this is due to women being the ones who become pregnant, give birth, are in a position to suckle etc. Since it is very difficult for women to work during pregnancy (and to a lesser extent are naturally in the best position to bring up children, i.e. suckle), AQ balances this out, and it does this by allocating men the default role as maintainer/supporter, i.e. it is their default duty to provide for the family, of course, default does not mean only option, and husband/wife for example can do whatever as long as it is mutually agreed upon.
Time to ponder Leyna
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Ayisha
that says nothing about men being 'superior', time you pondered raaaaajah
and where did I said that men are superior to women, this only further confirms that you donot read the posts of others before responding, time to mediate and ponder dear Ayisha.
and I am so confused about your Karokae prayers, it takes 15 lines? what does it mean?
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Ayisha
and where did I said that men are superior to women, this only further confirms that you donot read the posts of others before responding, time to mediate and ponder dear Ayisha.
page 15, Raajah - First, men have been granted superiority over women.Time to eat fish raajah, for memory.
and I am so confused about your Karokae prayers, it takes 15 lines? what does it mean?
Karokae?? where does it say that in my sig? Read and it will be obvious what it means! Do you ever get asked what your prayer 'means'?
So raj, how can you on one page say men are superior to women, bring someone elses writing as proof to ponder which does not say men are superior to women then claim you never said it? ???
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Ayisha
page 15, Raajah - First, men have been granted superiority over women.
Time to eat fish raajah, for memory.
Ah, ah,,, don't pick and chose..
Is this the quote you are mentioning about?
Raaajah
The Almighty has created some superior to the others as regards their mental, physical, economic and social status. Similar is the case between a man and a woman. They have been created as counterparts such that one is by nature the active member and the other the passive. While the former trait needs domination, vigor and force the latter needs gentleness, subtlety and acquiescence. Viewed thus, each possesses relative superiority to the other.
Have you really read this paragraph before commenting, I doubt.
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Rajah
First, men have been granted superiority over women. There are certain innate abilities and traits in men which are more pronounced in him and because of which he has been made the head of a family unit. For example, a man is much more gifted innately to protect and to defend himself and to earn livelihood and to take the initiative than a woman. It should be appreciated here that the superiority men have over women is not absolute it is only in certain spheres
and certainly you would have not been talking of above quote, as it compliments what WAKAS said.
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Ayisha
Ah, ah,,, don't pick and chose..
Is this the quote you are mentioning about?
Raaajah
Have you really read this paragraph before commenting, I doubt.No that is not the quote as that one does not say what I quoted does it!
This is what you said First, men have been granted superiority over women.
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Ayisha
Wakas did not say men are superior to women, which you did say and then claimed you didnt!
You are quoting me out of context, You are not reading whole paragraph, read it first..
then read what Wakas said, and despite the difference of words it is almost the same..
He says MEn are at deafult the caretakers..that is what i understood from him, and same thing is said in the above post if you bother to read it in full context. -
Ayisha
You are quoting me out of context, You are not reading whole paragraph, read it first..
then read what Wakas said, and despite the difference of words it is almost the same..
He says MEn are at deafult the caretakers..that is what i understood from him, and same thing is said in the above post if you bother to read it in full context."Men are by default the caretakers" does not equate to "men are superior to women" and that is the problem with 'the difference in words' and that is how people like you get to think you are something super special in creation with God given rights to abuse and oppress women. Wakas did not say men are superior, he said men are different and have different 'natural' roles to women, this does not make them superior nor does it make them anything more 'special' or give them rights to see woman as subordinates to order around, which is what you are saying.
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He says MEn are at deafult the caretakers..that is what i understood from him, and same thing is said in the above post if you bother to read it in full context Raajah
What is then the harm in admitting and saying in straightforward manner that "yes I agree that Qur'aan nowhere suggests the superiority of men over women", instead of playing with words and trying to give impression of superiority in between the lines; each gender has a distinct individuality and pecularity; one without the other is incomplete entity.
The word "caretaker" most of the time suggests relatively inferior position with regard to the one being taken care of. Since women are called Mohsanaat therefore for men appropriate word is "protectors".
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What do we need protection from? ???
that you don?t starve to death!