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  4. i want to stop wearing the head-scarf/hijab, need support!

i want to stop wearing the head-scarf/hijab, need support!

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  • L Offline
    L Offline
    Leyna
    wrote on last edited by
    #201

    The ground reality is that in these "barbaric" countries the number of rapes is almost negligible than the "open and civilized" societies

    What are the "barbaric countries" you are referring to here?

    Who / what are the "open and civilized societies"?

    And what makes you come to the conclusion that the number of rapes is negligible in the former compared to the latter?

    Sorry, but I don't understand this part of your post at all. confused

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      Mazhar
      wrote on last edited by
      #202

      Mazhar is Such a serious person, I doubt even if he laughs a moment or two-Raajah

      I am, in later part of my life, enjoying time with smiles and sometimes laughs also but I should be careful about these

      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/53.57.gif
      The ever approaching has become imminent.
      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/53.58.gif
      Other than Allah there is none for it the discloser.
      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/53.59.gif
      Do you people then feel strange and unaccustomed about this The Statement
      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/53.60.gif
      and you people laugh and you people do not weep
      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/53.61.gif
      and you people keep amusing.
      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/053.%20An%20Najam/53.62a.gif
      Therefore you people prostrate for Allah and you people become allegiants .

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        Mazhar
        wrote on last edited by
        #203

        Sister Leyna,

        I was attending to Jaffar's opinion

        Because the Quran was a message delivered to people within a society which is VERY BARBARIC and VERY CLOSE to receives TOTAL DESTRUCTION from God. As thus 'such clothing recommendation and behavior' is being recommended for their own safety... that's the main objective SAFETY... from DANGEROUS SURROUNDINGS.

        There are many other societies which is not as BARBARIC as the 'you know who' society who received the Quran message, and as thus female not wearing anything at all could safely walk by wiithout any exposed danger whatsoever.

        I don't know what made him think and declare them as barbaric on the thread relating to women issue while their poetry revolved describing her delicacies.

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          Ayisha
          wrote on last edited by
          #204

          Sister Leyna,

          I was attending to Jaffar's opinion

          I don't know what made him think and declare them as barbaric on the thread relating to women issue while their poetry revolved describing her delicacies.

          But they still buried baby girls alive because they were worth less than boys, thats barbaric. Rape, murder etc was all part of the daily activity, that and worshipping stones and other gods. Poetry by a few men does not make a nation subscribe to the same way of thinking about women, as history of this area proves. Quran also says they are the worst in hipocrisy.

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            Mazhar
            wrote on last edited by
            #205

            People as a community of an era are to be adjudged by comparative study, not by the extreme or irrational conduct of some members of a community.

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              Mazhar
              wrote on last edited by
              #206

              Rape in a tribal society is a rare phenomenon; and the fear of horrible result/outcome is in itself a great rerstraint in a tribal society.

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                Raaajah
                wrote on last edited by
                #207

                Mazhar

                People as a community of an era are to be adjudged by comparative study, not by the extreme or irrational conduct of some members of a community.

                Very correct.

                Since Ayisha is not concerned about Islam or Arabs as a whole, she is more interested in WOMEN.

                Fom Source
                In pre-Islamic Arabia, women's status varied widely according to laws and cultural norms of the tribes in which they lived. In the prosperous southern region of the Arabian Peninsula, for example, the religious edicts of Christianity, Judaism and Zoroastrianism held sway among the Sabians and Himyarites. In other places such as the city of Makkah (Mecca) -- where the prophet of Islam, Muhammad, was born?a tribal set of rights was in place. This was also true amongst the Bedouin (desert dwellers), and this code varied from tribe to tribe. Thus there was no single definition of the roles played, and rights held, by women prior to the advent of Islam.

                Therefore to blame all the society is not justifiable for the acts of some, Similarly if some thing wrong happened with Mukhtara Mai, not all of Pakistan and then Islam should be blamed for it, as westeren Media did.

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                  Leyna
                  wrote on last edited by
                  #208

                  Rape in a tribal society is a rare phenomenon

                  While that is true in a certain percentage of cases, it does not apply in others. So, no, rape is not per default rare in tribal societies.

                  Rape in tribal societies is part of a cultural configuration that includes interpersonal violence, male dominance, and sexual separation. Pallocentrism is a dominant psycho-sexual symbol in these societies and men "use the penis to dominate their women" as Yolanda and Robert Murphy say about the Mundurucu (Sanday l98125). Rape-prone behavior is associated with environmental insecurity and females are turned into objects to be controlled as men struggle to retain or to gain control of their environment. Behaviors and attitudes prevail that separate the sexes and force men into a posture of proving their manhood. Sexual violence is one of the ways in which men remind themselves that they are superior. As such, rape is part of a broader struggle for control in the face of difficult circumstances. Where men are in harmony with their environment, rape is usually absent.

                  http//www.sas.upenn.edu/~psanday/rapea.html

                  Throughout history, rape?forcible sexual intercourse without consent?has occurred in most cultures around the world. Usually understood as aggression against women, rape has also been used against slaves and prisoners and other social groups who traditionally lack power or status. During wars, widespread raping of women has also served as a means of humiliating, degrading, and demoralizing enemies. When anthropologist Peggy Reeves Sanday studied 156 tribal societies, dating from 1750 B.C. to the late 1960s, she found that rape was particularly common in maledominated, violence-prone societies in which women had little or no political power.

                  http//www.enotes.com/teen-rape-article

                  In many of Pakistan's remote areas tribal councils, made up of community elders, still work like a lawful body, judging cases ranging from animal theft or tribal rivalry to murder.

                  The rape was to avenge the "insult" caused to a family of the Mastoi tribe by the girl's 13-year-old brother's alleged "illicit affair" with a woman from that family.

                  The Mastoi are considered by locals as a tribe of higher social standing than that of the victim and her brother, who are from the Gujjar tribe.

                  Local police officials say they were informed about the public gang rape several days after the incident.

                  The incident has outraged human rights and women's organisations.

                  "It is barbaric. It is like living in the dark ages," says Rashid Rehman, a human rights activist.

                  "These tribal customs are powerful here. Whosoever within the community opposes or raises a voice is declared social outcast. The girl's family is shattered. The girl now will be treated as a leper by the community members," Rehman says.

                  http//news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/2089624.stm

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                    afridi220
                    wrote on last edited by
                    #209

                    While that is true in a certain percentage of cases, it does not apply in others. So, no, rape is not per default rare in tribal societies.

                    All you posted about Pakistan are village local councils these are not tribes, I believe you don?t understand what Mazhar said.

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                      morninglight
                      wrote on last edited by
                      #210

                      Welcome. Peace.

                      I would not assume that the staring you experience there is necessarily because of your wearing a scarf. The very different perceptions of staring and notions of "personal space" you may notice there are cultural, common in that region. Their sense may be that they are simply looking at an unfamiliar or foreign looking person. It is so commonplace in that region that it might not be meant or expected to be taken as rude.

                      I suggest that you wear a hat for the outdoors there, perhaps a broad straw hat, some hat style that would suit you and the climate and be sensible to shade yourself from sunny conditions. Wearing under it a wide fabric headband, or a scarf tied in back in the fashion you described having worn in Estonia, would absorb perspiration and help keep such a hat better secured in breezes. This would make your scarf less conspicuous to others if you are sensitive about that, and it would have practical comfort purpose for you. Perhaps wide fabric headbands and lace scarves close in coloring to your hair color would help you make the transition at your own comfort level to the feel and appearance of having your hair uncovered.

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                        princess
                        wrote on last edited by
                        #211

                        Welcome. Peace.

                        I would not assume that the staring you experience there is necessarily because of your wearing a scarf. The very different perceptions of staring and notions of "personal space" you may notice there are cultural, common in that region. Their sense may be that they are simply looking at an unfamiliar or foreign looking person. It is so commonplace in that region that it might not be meant or expected to be taken as rude.

                        I suggest that you wear a hat for the outdoors there, perhaps a broad straw hat, some hat style that would suit you and the climate and be sensible to shade yourself from sunny conditions. Wearing under it a wide fabric headband, or a scarf tied in back in the fashion you described having worn in Estonia, would absorb perspiration and help keep such a hat better secured in breezes. This would make your scarf less conspicuous to others if you are sensitive about that, and it would have practical comfort purpose for you. Perhaps wide fabric headbands and lace scarves close in coloring to your hair color would help you make the transition at your own comfort level to the feel and appearance of having your hair uncovered.

                        thank you morninglight! i am not sure if you read my following posts in this thread, but i already have removed the head-scarf.. and staring is ~80% less. to be honest i am relieved. while still being properly dressed, i am happy to blend in now. san juan, pr has one of the largest ports in the caribbean with several cruise lines making it a port of call, so rest assured we have abundance of white american and european tourists flooding the streets of san juan. on the background of that, i don't look that exotic
                        big thanks for your advice though! i'm already done with the hijab issue now, and happy about the decision i made. sun
                        (but not everyone is happy lol, i have got some interesting comments from sunni friends )

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                          Raaajah
                          wrote on last edited by
                          #212

                          (but not everyone is happy lol, i have got some interesting comments from sunni friends

                          To label comments, that don't fit in, as Sunni, Shia, or Wahabi comments is losing its credibility.
                          Actually it is Quran you should blame and not Sunni's, taking off Hijab against your Husbands will as you mentioned is against Quran

                          The men are responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment......

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                            Leyna
                            wrote on last edited by
                            #213

                            and made them the bread earners.

                            Nonsense. Countless women the world over are breadwinners.

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                              Raaajah
                              wrote on last edited by
                              #214

                              Nonsense. Countless women the world over are breadwinners.

                              That is not non sense for those who believe. Yes there are many, but we are talking about the system of Allah..

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                                Leyna
                                wrote on last edited by
                                #215

                                we are talking about the system of Allah..

                                You are talking about your own distorted system.

                                There is nothing in the system of God that says men have been created to be breadwinners and that women aren't supposed to be. )

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                                  unknownuser
                                  wrote on last edited by
                                  #216

                                  To label comments, that don't fit in, as Sunni, Shia, or Wahabi comments is losing its credibility.

                                  She didn't label comments as sunni or shia. She only said that sunni friends gave her comments. There is a difference between these two things.

                                  Actually it is Quran you should blame and not Sunni's, taking off Hijab against your Husbands will as you mentioned is against Quran

                                  The men are responsible for the women, and GOD has endowed them with certain qualities, and made them the bread earners. The righteous women will cheerfully accept this arrangement, since it is GOD's commandment......

                                  No. It is not against the Quran. And a woman should not obey her husband, she should obey God. God comes first, then comes everything else.

                                  My explanation of the verse above As you know, this verse is about married men and women. The verse above tells us that men who are married are responsible for providing for their wives. Which means men should be providers. Then the vers tells us that righteous women will accept that men are providers. But keep in mind that nowhere in this verse or on other verses in Quran does it say that women can not work or have their own money. When it comes to work, the Quran actually gives more right to women than men when it comes to work. Because the Quran lets women work without having to provide for their family. From my understanding of the Quran, the quran is for equal oppurtunities for both men and women. And mostly the Quran gives equal rights to both men and women. But since the sexes are different both physically and mentally, in some situations in life, the Quran gives more right to women. And since the sexes are different both physically and mentally, in some situations the Quran gives more right to men. When i say women and men are different physically and mentally, it means they are different when it comes abilities (which is a claim that verse 434 backs up). And no, I am not saying men are better than women or women are better than men. When I say different abilities, it means women are better in some things than men, and men are better in some things whan women. From my studies of the Quran, not only does the Quran give more right to women than any other scripture, but the Quran also gives better rights to women than feminist philosophies, governments in democratic countries.

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                                    Leyna
                                    wrote on last edited by
                                    #217

                                    David, I will reply to your post in the feminism thread, ok? peace

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                                      Mazhar
                                      wrote on last edited by
                                      #218

                                      But keep in mind that nowhere in this verse or on other verses in Quran does it say that women can not work or have their own money. When it comes to work, the Quran actually gives more right to women than men when it comes to work. Because the Quran lets women work without having to provide for their family. From my understanding of the Quran, the quran is for equal oppurtunities for both men and women. David

                                      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.032a.gif
                                      And you people do not covet in what preference/peculiarity Allah has given to some upon others.
                                      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.032b.gif
                                      For men is the return what they have earned and for women is the return what they women have earned.
                                      http//www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/00.Arabic%20Text/004.%20An%20Nisa/temp%2014%20%204.032c.gif
                                      And you people keep asking Allah for bestowing from His bounty.

                                      Surat An Nisa 432

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                                        Raaajah
                                        wrote on last edited by
                                        #219

                                        I will not address any one specifically but, Leyna please read the following and David-K I will answer you after this post

                                        Men are the guardians of women, because God has given the one more preference than the other, and because they support them. Consequently, pious women are obedient and keep their secrets for Allah also keeps secrets. And as for those from whom you fear rebellion, admonish them and refuse to share their beds and punish them. Then if they obey you, take no further action against them. Indeed Allah is Exalted and Mighty. (434)

                                        The Almighty has created some superior to the others as regards their mental, physical, economic and social status. Similar is the case between a man and a woman. They have been created as counterparts such that one is by nature the active member and the other the passive. While the former trait needs domination, vigor and force the latter needs gentleness, subtlety and acquiescence. Viewed thus, each possesses relative superiority to the other.

                                        and the Verse that Mazhar pointed out
                                        And in no way covet those things in which God has bestowed His favors on some of you than on others to men is allotted what they earn, and to women what they earn. And ask God of His bounty. For God has full knowledge of all things. (432)

                                        This verse pinpoints the above stated premise as the guiding principle in the organization of a family set-up. A family is like a small state. Just as every state requires a ruler for its establishment and survival, this small state also requires someone to take charge of its helm. Either the husband could have been bestowed with this responsibility or the wife. The Qur?n informs us that the husband has been entrusted with this responsibility. The expression ? ? has been used by the Qur?n to convey this purport. In Arabic, when the preposition ?? is used after the verb ??, the meanings of ?protection? and ?financial dependency? are incorporated in the verb. A person who is in charge is actually the protector and bread runner of the members that are entrusted in his responsibility.

                                        Javed Ahmed Ghamidi

                                        He is one of the few Pakistani scholars who saw nothing wrong in Amina Wadud's led prayer. This is important to mention other wise most here would get out there lids and whips without even reading what he says.

                                        So Leyna what is your comments is this my system or Allah's system.

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                                          Raaajah
                                          wrote on last edited by
                                          #220

                                          David-K

                                          No. It is not against the Quran. And a woman should not obey her husband, she should obey God. God comes first, then comes everything else.

                                          I just cannot understand this logic, it will really create KIos in the society, Allah has made a syetem and in his system he has assigned duties for different creations, and has issued some rules and princiapls, so according to your logic we should not obey the State, beacuse we have to obey Allah, we should not obey our father because we have to obey Allah...and so on, what is this? actually when you obey your father (othet than the commands mention in Quran) you are obeying Allah, and similarly obeying mother and Husband you are obeying Allah.

                                          David-K

                                          But keep in mind that nowhere in this verse or on other verses in Quran does it say that women can not work or have their own money.

                                          Please just don't keep on putting words in my mouth..where did I said that women are not allowed to work. Half of my female family members are in Governemnt Jobs.

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