Jilbab [Quran 33:59]

Raaajah

aynur

ACTUALLY, if you do look at many commentators (and at Muhammad Asad's footnotes on the issue), women WERE roaming around with their breasts exposed ... that is why covering the bosoms is explicitly stated in the verse

That makes things further difficult for those who think that, quran has ordered to cover only two parts, or only two parts are private parts.

Ayisha

aynur
That makes things further difficult for those who think that, quran has ordered to cover only two parts, or only two parts are private parts.

do you totally misunderstand or twist things out of some perverse pleasure or do you do this normally with everything? ??? Is it a language problem?

Raaajah

Ayisha

do you totally misunderstand or twist things out of some perverse pleasure or do you do this normally with everything? Is it a language problem?

I dono how to dance, how can I twist? and language is working fine, i just gota fix it yesterday.

Ayisha

Ayisha
I dono how to dance, how can I twist? and language is working fine, i just gota fix it yesterday.

no, you really need to fix todays too, trust me on that.

mamnoeoea_qatief_alazhaar

As salaamu aleykum

After a long time studying about the subject..

To understand my opinion ,please first have a look to this video ;even you may not like the content

http//www.youtube.com/watch?v=5z_HbdrJvCc&feature=share&list=FLFe-rRWPCNZgpAj851L_QUA

I think that the recommended jilbab in the Quraan must be a cloack,a hooded one..that would explain a lot of mistakes.

Love and blessings for all the seekers of truth !

diamantinehoneybunch

Peace,

I don't understand why some people say women must cover everything with dracula cloak except face, hands. Of course most of them are Sunnis, Shias and other "Muslim" sectarians.
Their stupid excuses and apologies are "Hijab is the sign of modesty", "Veiling is to prevent women from rape", "Veil and niqab / burqa / purdah are to honor women". Oh my God! Really? Men want to rape women because of their hair, head, neck, ears and even faces? What the hell. This is so stupid. Head-covering and the prison-like clothes are to honor women? So hair, neck, ears, head and even face of women are signs of dishonor and immodesty? They are awrat ? Awrat means nakednesses / private parts / shames. It is really sexist to equate women's hair, heads, necks, ears and even faces to nakedness.

Jilbab means outer garment. Outer garment can be blouses, coats, cloaks.

As a girl and a young lady, I admit and agree that a woman must cover her private parts, breasts; not to show other attractive body parts and shapes such as belly, hips, tighs, navel, back body and; must not wear tight clothes that makes a women look sl*tty and cheap. I must say that a female human, especially a pubescent lady has more 'vulgar' attractions than a man that must be covered to look modest and descend.

However, covering all parts of the body and obliging people to cover their hair / head, necks, ears for the sake of 'modesty' are outrageous and too much.

Regards,
Yuliana

herbman

Peace,

Here is an hypothesis I will try to develop if God wills, and I hope you can help to support or reject this idea

I seek refuge in God against Satan the banished.

In 3359 we read the following

O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should cast their outer garments over their persons (when abroad) that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

Dal-Nun-Waw (Dal-Nun-Alif) = To be near, come near or low, let down, be akin to.

JALABIB root is JIM-LAM-BA
Also JALIB means the he helped, he assisted

Also PR-Online take the root Jiim-Lam-Ba-Ba = Woman's outer wrapping garment, that which envelopes the whole body, wide garment for a woman, dominion or sovereignty or rule

The whole idea of the verse is to protect the women which are the weakest to be protected from offenses from offenders.
How to protect them? They have to be known, by the offenders.
Once they are known they will be no more offended.
The question is does a piece of tissue protect you against the offenders? Knowing that everyone in these time, men and women were covering their heads and body against sun.

The problem is to find the correct meaning of a word which has no other reference in Qur?an, the only occurance we can find is with the root JLB.

Jiim-Lam-Ba = To drive/bring/convey/transport, to draw/attract/procure a thing, gain or earn, seek after or seek to gain, to raise cries/shouts/noises, chide or urge on, to threaten, bring together/assemble/gather/collect, commit a crime or offence, to heal, to help/aid or assist, take or borrow, to seek or demand, to cover or clad oneself.

This occurrence can be found in 1764 and means to assemble/collect/put together

In Lane?s we find JLBB under JLB and means garnement.

SO let?s take the origine of the word to try to understand the context and meaning.

The first meaning is to drive, bring one thing from one country to another or from one town to another. That supports the idea of migrating from one town to another.

-Also in Kazimirski (arabic-french) dictionnar Jilbab is translated as SLAVE

So back in the context

By 9100 to 9103 we know some believers moved to Medina, they were the first and therefore a minority in a new town.

Some people from Medina were hypocrites and were therefore offending the minority.
At that time and still now in some countries/town when you are a stranger you are an easy victim for thieves/ aggressors/ offenders etc and that is why GOD promised to the offenders to be killed if they continue in their behaviors.

In conclusion

My idea here is that JALABIB does not mean a piece of tissue/ garnment to protect you from the offenders but a PERSON who can help you, defend you from offenders in a foreign town and who is well known by the citizen of that town so the immigrant are safe with him.

So the verse should look like

O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should come near/ be near/get closer/ in group from the jilbab (assistant/helper/guide of the town) So these who offend know you and therefore will not offend you and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

This is an hypothesis and I am looking forward for yours comment to support or reject this idea.

Peace

mamnoeoea_qatief_alazhaar

As salaamu aleykum

Thanks for the interesting supply

Altough I could not find me completely in this hypothetic answer/question

If i look the whole surah,then I found in 3353

..speak with them from behind a "screen" that is more pure for your heart and their hearts..

and 3355

There is no blame (on these ladies if they appear) before their fathers or their sons, their brothers, or their brother's sons, or their sisters' sons, or their women, or the (slaves) whom their right hands possess. And, (ladies), fear Allah; for Allah is Witness to all things.

Alsook soerah an nour 2460

Pickthall
As for women past child-bearing, who have no hope of marriage, it is no sin for them if they discard their (outer) clothing in such a way as not to show adornment. But to refrain is better for them. Allah is Hearer, Knower.

Yusuf Ali
Such elderly women as are past the prospect of marriage,- there is no blame on them if they lay aside their (outer) garments, provided they make not a wanton display of their beauty but it is best for them to be modest and Allah is One Who sees and knows all things.

There is no blame..it means that there is a blame when they lay aside their outer garment when they are in other cases than described by God.

If this surah was revealed and written with importance in the Quran..it is an obligation for all who believe in the Quran and the words of Allah to keep their outer garments like explained in the Quran..

What is this outher clothing is an other question.

Like in soerah al ahzaab it could be a protection against of evil desire of adultery

If a "gard" or "protector" was given by God,it would be in the first place the husband and not an other "guy"..because in surah al ahzab 3355 (ask them from behind a screen !!!!!!) no strange man can talk or see freely the wives of our beloved prophet Mohammed sallalahu aleyhi wa salaam

And soerah al ahzab 3359 is also a command for the woman of the believers.

But God knows best and forgive me if I make mistakes while learning

Audhu bilehi minna sjataanir rajiem

huruf

Whatever was commanded in 33.59, it cannot be considered ouside the very circumstances in which and because of which it was commanded. Believers were being the object of hostility and attacks from hypocrites. It is to protect themselves from those hypocrites that women were to do whatever they were told to do. But that is not supposed to be the ordinary situation of believers amongst themselves, nor of any society in which there is no all out open hostility. They had to be known so that hypocrites could not claim that they attacked them because they did not know who they were. In the next ayas it is stated what awaits the hypocrites if they do not cease in their hostility. Once the hypocrites pose no danger there is no need to do whatever they had to do in those circumstances.

It is too much of a joke that pretexting that the hypocrites in times of revelation posed a danger to believers and to the women believers that women are forced today to dress in any particular way, precisely amongst believers, when those who are nto supposed to be believers pose no danger and they believing women should dress in a certain way precisely to protect themselves of the believers. In that case it is obvious that those purported believers are not such and not only that that they are not deterred by any kind of clothing whatsoever. So that in fact Quranic injonctions are being twiested to the end of tyranising and oppresing believing women.

Salaam

herbman

Salam,

I totally agree with Huruf, and when you read the entire sura and keep the context in mind you understand very well what was going on, please read from verse 3350 and you see the context is about The prophete and his wives, also v3353 appears to me to be allegorical (hijab) unless you do like Talibans and ask all women to wear burka!!!!

asking something behind the hijab means asking something with distance or/ with a barrier between the one who ask and the other.

example when you buy bread at the baker do not make familiarities with the baker women do you understand my point

peace

ps remember The Quran is to be adressed to civilised people (the one's who zakkah)!

mamnoeoea_qatief_alazhaar

As salaamu aleykum

Thanks for the intresting reaction and the effort

What about 2460?

Do we have to see this as outside the circumstances that

"woman who are past child bearing don't have sin to take out this outer garment but better to refrain of it"

It means there is a sin if the believing woman who believe in the words of God and they are not yet past child bearing ,take out there outer garments.

What is this outer garment?

Bismillah

Wakas

peace herbman, all,

I find your alternative understanding of 3359 to be very weak and simply unnecessary.

You said

The question is does a piece of tissue protect you against the offenders? Knowing that everyone in these time, men and women were covering their heads and body against sun.

I think you have misunderstood the verse. Firstly, the verse does not state nor imply that a garment will protect those in question. It discusses a modification to the garment being worn.
Secondly, even if everyone is covering their head and body against the sun this may or may not be relevant. One would have to prove they do so in the manner in the common understanding of 3359 thus rendering the common understanding inconsequential.

You said

O prophet! tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should come near/ be near/get closer/ in group from the jilbab (assistant/helper/guide of the town) So these who offend know you and therefore will not offend you and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful

I'm afraid your rendering does not fit with the Arabic, i.e. yudneena AAalayhinna min jalabeebihinna
Thus, your understanding would be they should come near/be near/get closer over them(f) (in group) from their(f) assistants/helpers/guides (of the town)

You said

The prophete and his wives, also v3353 appears to me to be allegorical (hijab) unless you do like Talibans and ask all women to wear burka!!!!

Not only is this not what the verse says but this is not necessarily so, as you say later

asking something behind the hijab means asking something with distance or/ with a barrier between the one who ask and the other.

Why allegorical when there are plausible physical barriers, e.g. distance, screen, seclusion (i.e. not in same room) etc.

There are also several assumptions in your view, which are simply not necessary. Thus, I have to ask what is the exact problem you have with the following understanding, which is a slightly modified understanding of the common one

http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

By "problem" I mean something which can be proven to be illogical/contradictory/impractical.

huruf

As salaamu aleykum

Thanks for the intresting reaction and the effort

What about 2460?

Do we have to see this as outside the circumstances that

"woman who are past child bearing don't have sin to take out this outer garment but better to refrain of it"

It means there is a sin if the believing woman who believe in the words of God and they are not yet past child bearing ,take out there outer garments.

What is this outer garment?

Bismillah

Of course it does not mean that at all. You would want the aya to mean that, but what it means it does say. You do not need to interpret anything. And there is no connection between aya 33.59 and 24.60. You jopin them in order to opress womenand yarmuhunna, as God forbid you to do in the Sura Nur.

There is no mention whatsoever of jilbab in 24.60. It says thiab, the translation says outergarmen, but ia dress is an outer garmentm, the inner garment is simply the undergarment.

but we know how male malecentric people try to turn everything upside down just to throw some new obligation on women. Why don't you just take care of your own virtue and stop acusing women, when ayas 9 to 23 of Sura An-Nur warn so eternly about maligning women and God damns those who accuse believing women for not being up their male fantasies.

Salaam

mamnoeoea_qatief_alazhaar

As salaamu aleykum

Thanks for replying.

But what about the 3359..I see that just one person have an hypothetic answer (herbman)..what the rest think about the meaning of the "jilbab"

x And why would there be so much surah's about "outergarments"

What is a jilbab? (if want please reply or try to reply in what thy believe)

I found a description in a book where was written something about ..what is a jilbab..

'Abd-Allaah ibn Mas'uud, radiya Allaahu' anhu, who was known as the most skilled
Sahaabi scholar in matters of the Shari'ah. He became a Muslim when he was a young
child and since then he continued with Rasuul-Allah, salla Allahu 'alayhi wa sallam, and
He gained a lot of understanding of the Quran from him. 'Umar Ibn Al-Khattab, radiya
Allaahu 'anhu, said of him "By Allah, I know of no person more
qualified in dealing with the Quran than 'Abd-Allaah ibn Mas'uud. "
He radiya Allaahu 'anhu, put a word Jilbaab (as mentioned in the Quran, Suurat
Al-Ahzaab, Ayah 59), from being "a piece of clothe that covers the entire body,
including the head, face and hands. "

I think the niqab is not written in the quraan but so do the jilbab and the facecovering (this is a piece of text I wrote myself half a year before (for those who don't believe in the facecovering please refrain from reaction,for those who are misguided because they don't find the niqab in the Quraan read this..(niqab is not the same as the facecovering with the jilbab!!!!)

Dear brother in islam,thanks for your reply..I can be wrong,let Allah decide this by self but want to explain..when the woman have to go on hajj,they can't wear a niqab but have to cover their faces still..with the jilbab..because the niqab is attached to the face as a piece of clothe and cover the face with their jilbab not..to were gloves is also probihited in hajj but covering the hands by a jilbab is that not..we have to care much about the explenations because a niqab is not the same as the recommended jilbab..a jilbab looks like a cloack (from the medieval time) and a niqab with two eyes unveiled not..the cloack can cover the face when it is necessary like when the drivers pass by the woman,they let down their jilbab on their faces and when the drivers with horses (mans!)were gone,they lift up again their jilbab..take care for misunderstandings in islam en study very well the ahadith,alhamdullilah

This is just a hypothetic theory and I hope to find the answer by studying further...

Love and peace for all the seekers of truth

Xawl

Good analogy Sister. Love it. (-

If the Qur'an had been revealed to a prophet who lived among the Eskimos, it would mention fur coats and hoods, eating fish, maybe it would mention fishing through holes in the ice etc.

Nobody would conclude from this that Muslims should wear fur coats or fish through holes in the ice, regardless of where and when they are living.

herbman

Salam and Peace

first thanks for your effort and reply.

peace herbman, all,

I find your alternative understanding of 3359 to be very weak and simply unnecessary.

I found your understanding weak too
http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

You said The question is does a piece of tissue protect you against the offenders? Knowing that everyone in these time, men and women were covering their heads and body against sun.

I think you have misunderstood the verse. Firstly, the verse does not state nor imply that a garment will protect those in question. It discusses a modification to the garment being worn.
Secondly, even if everyone is covering their head and body against the sun this may or may not be relevant. One would have to prove they do so in the manner in the common understanding of 3359 thus rendering the common understanding inconsequential.

ok let's see what the verse says regardless of the meaning of Jilbab here is your translation in red what I consider wrong or misinterpreted

And those who harm the believing men and the believing women, with no just reason, they have brought upon themselves a slander and a gross sin.
O prophet, tell your wives, your daughters, and the wives of the believers that they shall lengthen (or draw near) their Jalabib. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
If the hypocrites and those with disease in their hearts and those who spread lies in the city do not refrain*, then We will let you overpower them, then they will not be able to remain as your neighbours except for a short while.

In v 3358 harm yudhuna is applied for men and women, so who is harmed --> men and women
then the verse point to prophet's women and believing women only not to men, why?
If as you say women are told to "modify" something in their outer garment, why men should not follow the same logic if it is as you say to be recognised?

Now let's focus on the "that they shall lengthen (or draw near) their Jalabib. Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being harmed"

why do you keep "lengthen" as first possible meaning of "yud'nna" while the basic meaning is "draw near" and "approach"!

then you have the particule "over themselve" 'alayhina, which can be part of the verbe "yud'nna" please see lane lexicon page 86 and should not be translated separetly

you say, .. U;, (M,
Mgl, Msb,) and -, ;. (T, 8,) and l, (M,
Msb,) and d , (TA,) and 4U occurs in a verse of
S'ideh as meaning Zs, (M,) He, or it, and I,
nas, or became, near, Ic., to him, or it' (T, M,
Mgh, Mob ;u6ijs yn. with L1) (M, M, O)

in summary

female gender of the verse should get nearest of Jalabib

the verse continue and explain why
your translation Thus, they will be recognized and avoid being harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
quranic corpus translation that is more suitable that they should be known and not harmed. God is Forgiver, Merciful.
Yusuf Ali that is most convenient, that they should be known (as such) and not molested and Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.

As you see your translation is missing a little part ADNA which is same root as DNW (to be near/approach)
and this introduvce the result of the sentence you get nearest to the solution which is to be known/recognised and avoid to be harmed

Now I answer to your comment
I think you have misunderstood the verse. Firstly, the verse does not state nor imply that a garment will protect those in question. It discusses a modification to the garment being worn.

I really don't get you, the verse explain the "problem",
men and women harmed
...then give a solution get nearer the Jalabib
...then explain if the solution is set, the consequences will be avoiding to be harmed

so my comment was just to justify if "a cloth" can avoid you to be harmed?
Again in my logic if I had to avoid "problems" in a different community/society I would dress the same as them and not differently, this will surely avoid me problems.
See consequences of 9/11 in USA, any guy wearing a turban was "recognised" as muslim even if not like e.g. the sik community, and these people had troubles after 9/11!!!

Why allegorical when there are plausible physical barriers, e.g. distance, screen, seclusion (i.e. not in same room) etc.

There are also several assumptions in your view, which are simply not necessary. Thus, I have to ask what is the exact problem you have with the following understanding, which is a slightly modified understanding of the common one

http//misconceptions-about-islam.com/dress-code-women-veil.htm

By "problem" I mean something which can be proven to be illogical/contradictory/impractical.

again simply by using logic, if you ask something to someone behind a hijab, can you see each other or do you have to guess someone is there? Like in the mentionned verse 3353
why this is not applied "outside", let say in the market or elsewhere? do you (man) have to take a hijab with you when ever you talk to a women, if she does not have one?

Peace

huruf